Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bullethead on May 03, 2001, 04:42:00 PM
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If I could change one thing about AH, it would be to rip out the killshooter, choke it to death on one of my dirty socks, and bury it in an unmarked grave at midnight.
Why do I feel this way? Simple. It causes more problems than it solves. Like all things done with good intentions, it's just a paving stone on the road to Hell.
A killshooter can only be justified if there is a significant number of amazinhunks dead set on ruining the game for everybody else. Assuming for the sake of argument that AH has such a population (which I seriously doubt), however, killshooter is not the way to go. Such people by definition are going to keep on trying to ruin the game, so will use killshooter to their advantage. Instead of fragging people, just cut in front of them. True, there are fewer opportunities to do this and simply shooting friendlies climbing from a base, but if you have guys who want to do this sort of thing, then they'll do it regardless of killshooter.
Furthermore, killshooter rewards both idiocy and rudeness among all pilots, not just game ruiners. Because of killshooter, people KNOW they can steal kills with impunity. They know that if they cut in front, it's THEIR target. So 2 guys fight and bleed each other down, and somebody fresh swoops in and takes the kill. And because of this, pilots are encouraged to gangbang. Instead of keeping their alt for the next wave of nmes, they'll all go chase some low target hoping they can cut in front. Thus, polite and/or experienced guys who remain at alt get gangbanged by the next nme wave when it should have been a more even fight.
I submit, therefore, that killshooter is wrong. I believe that there are few, if any, deliberate game ruiners out there--in any case, far fewer than are needed to justify the extreme measure of killshooter. I also believe that while newbies (especially non-cz refugees from AW) may shoot up some friendlies out of ignorance of the icon color scheme, this is something that can be corrected in a matter of seconds with the radio. These guys aren't out to frag people, they want to kill the nme. Just point them in the right direction. Being fragged occasionally is a small price to pay for helping new guys get into the game.
My own solution would be to do something similar to the old DOS AW PNG system. If you kill 2 countrymen in 24 hrs, you either have to change countries or be grounded for 24 hrs. This worked quite well there. I went PNG only a couple times in a year and got fragged only about once a month. Why? Because people knew not to cut in front of me, and I knew not to cut in front of others. Still happened occasionally by accident, but war is Hell. I sure didn't go whining when it did.
OTOH, I've now been flying AH a month. And in that time, I've managed to shoot myself down 3 or 4 times thanks to some jerk cutting in front of me. And I can't begin to count the times I've had to break off to prevent killing myself. This is a higher incidence of such things than in situations where killshooter did NOT exist. So I think it's good evidence that the existence of killshooter encourages people to cut in front of you. Thus, it penalizes the very people it's trying to protect.
Bottom line:
Killshooter is unjustified per se
Killshooter does more harm than good
So why have it? Just to pacify the whiners?
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-Bullethead <CAF>
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
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I agree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
anRky
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Killshooter is a necessary evil.
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1. Some form of control either png or kill shooter must be in the game. It dosn't take a bunch, It only takes one person to abuse the system to destroy everyones day. If one persone choses to shoot friendlies it leaves everyone else with no choice but to shoot him, with in mins 1 big freindly only furbal erupts.
This point has been proven every time kill shooter has been off, take it as a fact.
2. PNG also has problems. I rember a few times when Kite and I were winging together that I would end up PNG, not sure why but some how Kite and I would always end up in the the same space and I would end up pinging him. I would ended up having to fly for a new country when I would rather not have.
3. Almost always it's the shooter fault for the none intential friendly fire, most people say that the other person just got in my way, but thats not realy the case, normaly the person who "gets in the way" is comming from above and has no idea the shooter is there it's the person with the hand on the trigers job to not shoot friendlies, why should the guy getting shot take the penalty for the shooter screwing up?
This is not a new topic, just like how collision detection works, both system are not perferct , but there isn't a perfect answer to the problem.
HiTech
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Why not - just no damage. Friendly fire on objects has no effect - why not friendly fire on aircraft has no effect. Keeps idiots from ruining game and stops death of shooter when someone dives in front - just my 2 cents.
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It stops people from spaying incessantly when friendlies are in the way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've taken myself out with killshooter about twice in one year - both times were a friendly zooming across my path. Not really my fault, but hey - it happens.
If Killshooter is a recurring problem for anyone then maybe they need to examine their firing habits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Phantom121:
Why not - just no damage. Friendly fire on objects has no effect - why not friendly fire on aircraft has no effect. Keeps idiots from ruining game and stops death of shooter when someone dives in front - just my 2 cents.
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Exactly, Vulcan...
How often is killshooter really a problem for some people? I can't remember the last time I was shot down due to killshooter....
I think it helps maintain the sanity in AH as well as making you ensure you shoot what you are aiming at.
-Soda
[This message has been edited by Soda (edited 05-03-2001).]
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I am in favor of killshooter. Not a perfect answer, as HT said, but it beats the alternative.
I rarely have suffered Killshooter damage, and even rarer been killed by it. It is almost a non-effect for me. Plus, it does come in handy to punish the "shoulder-shooters". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dago
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To me the solution seems obvious.
Both shooter and friendly should take equal damage.
He should have at LEAST equal motivation not to cut in front of me as I have to check my line of fire. In real life he would have MORE. right now the is little to disuade some yahoo from cutting in line to get shots at the enemy you were already lined up on.
Regards,
Wab
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Originally posted by Bullethead:
If I could change one thing about AH, it would be to rip out the killshooter, choke it to death on one of my dirty socks, and bury it in an unmarked grave at midnight.
So, does this mean you don't like it? LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Give killshooter another month...you might not hate it so much. It sucks when a guy jumps in front of you when you're firing away at a target, and you can't tap him on the shoulder so to speak, but if your SA is up you can usually see him quick enough to stop firing.
The PNG system sounds interesting too, but I'm not sure how I feel about a system that would allow my squaddies to take a turn each day to shoot me down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SOB
-edit- BTW...I like AK Wabbit's suggestion too. Any reasons against this?
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 05-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by SOB:
-edit- BTW...I like AK Wabbit's suggestion too. Any reasons against this?
Huhm yes, that I still dont want to get killed by a newbie who doesnt know that the green guys are friends.
I would like more something that both does not hurt the firing plane or the receiving plane. Reading WWIIOL boards some time ago I found the "freezeshooter" idea.
Why not if the shooting plane hits a friendly he founds himself stuck in the air for, say, 30 seconds? In the midde of a furball that is a sure death (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and in any case would prevent intentional firing against friendlies.
And before Toad jumps here yelling "partial realism" or something like that I will already answer him. Yes, in an HA I would like Killshooter off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif), but for the MA HT's reasons are very valid on this matter.
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Well, if we have to have killshooter (I would much rather have PNG) then could you please, HT, tell us why the killshooter always seems to be like 10x lethality?
I have had a few occasions where I am pinging away at an enemy A/C and only inflicting a little damage, but when I accidentily ping a friendly, my whole damn tail comes off with jut a few rounds that hit.
No offense HT...
3. Almost always it's the shooter fault for the none intential friendly fire, most people say that the other person just got in my way, but thats not realy the case, normaly the person who "gets in the way" is comming from above and has no idea the shooter is there it's the person with the hand on the trigers job to not shoot friendlies, why should the guy getting shot take the penalty for the shooter screwing up?
but your own explaination says that it is the shooter's fault. So why not PNG? I would think if you shot your own wingman down a couple times, it should tell you something about your tactics. Good wingman ship should find you hitting from 2 angles, not flying right on top of each other.
Anyhow, I think Bullethead has a very good point. I have lost quite a few kills due to the "swoop in kill stealer" who dives in front of me with cannons and finishes off a bandit that I have been working so hard to kill.
Really gets me upset to loose kills to theives. And YES.. they know you are there, how else would that bandit be low, smoking and missing pieces?
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Midnight CO
412th FG "Braunco Mustangs"[/i]
The 412th is actively seeking P-51 Mustang pilots. E-mail me for more information davidlj@charter.net
"You tell them I'm coming.. And Hell's coming with me!" -Kurt Russel Tombstone
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Kill shooter is necessary to keep regular players from strafing disruptive people senseless.
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IMO some punishment for shooting the friendlies is a must, but I dont like killshooter either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
How about:
-lots of negative perks
-lots of negative points
-jam the guns and ban for e.g. 15 minutes after landing (like ordered back to base and grounded)
Something like this would portray the real consequences such action had... demoting, grounding etc. They were not all just found guilty and executed.
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HiTech-
Thanks for taking the time to reply (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
1. Some form of control either png or kill shooter must be in the game.
I agree. Which is why I advocated old AW-style PNG instead of nothing at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
2. PNG also has problems. I rember a few times when Kite and I were winging together that I would end up PNG, not sure why but some how Kite and I would always end up in the the same space and I would end up pinging him. I would ended up having to fly for a new country when I would rather not have.
Yup, that can be a bummer. It was especially harsh in AW because to change sides, you had to get out of your squad, so most times I went PNG I just quit flying for the day, although sometimes it was fun to fight my squaddies for a change (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). However, in AH, you can change sides and still be in your squad, so this would be much less of a hassle.
Regardless, however, I still think PNG is far better than killshooter. It provides strong negative feedback to both friendlies. You learn to be more careful when you shoot, and the damn theivin' bastiges learn not to cut in front of you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Killshooter OTOH provides too much feedback for you and none at all for the jerk stealing your kill. In fact, I'm sure a lot of guys think it's funny as Hell when they cause somebody to kill themselves by cutting in front of them. In which case, that's just an added incentive to steal kills.
3. Almost always it's the shooter fault for the none intential friendly fire, most people say that the other person just got in my way, but thats not realy the case, normaly the person who "gets in the way" is comming from above and has no idea the shooter is there it's the person with the hand on the trigers job to not shoot friendlies, why should the guy getting shot take the penalty for the shooter screwing up?
I agree that most times the guy cutting in front comes from above. But this is expected because otherwise, how could he have the speed to pass you and cut in front? And I submit that because he's diving with overtaking speed, he started out behind you and far enough away to see both you and the nme. But he thought, "hey, I got alt, I can dive in there and steal that kill before the friendly catches him".
But this is beside the point. I never use the zoom view on the gunsight so I almost always see these guys coming down in front. Hence I don't fire, or stop firing if I already am. But that just lets the bastige steal my kill with impunity. And he's doing it BECAUSE he knows he can. So I'm penalized with the loss of a kill even though I did nothing wrong. Meanwhile, the theivin' bastige is rewarded with a kill.
This IMHO is where PNG is superior to killshooter. With PNG, the penalties are only imposed when a friendly actually gets hurt. And this penalty is imposed on both parties, which is fair because both did something wrong. OTOH, killshooter is always imposing the penalty of lost kills on guys who don't even shoot at friendlies, let alone kill them, and at the same time rewards these theivin' bastiges with the kills they steal.
This is not a new topic, just like how collision detection works, both system are not perferct , but there isn't a perfect answer to the problem.
Sure, but I think PNG, while still flawed in some ways, is at least less flawed than killshooter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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-Bullethead <CAF>
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
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Originally posted by Phantom121:
Why not - just no damage. Friendly fire on objects has no effect - why not friendly fire on aircraft has no effect. Keeps idiots from ruining game and stops death of shooter when someone dives in front - just my 2 cents.
This is the system AW went to somewhere in the AW2 to early-AW3 timeframe. I don't like this much, either. It also encourages stealing kills because you know you can, and thus leads to every mother's dweeb blowing their alt to gangbang some lone low nme just before a wave of fresh nmes arrive.
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-Bullethead <CAF>
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
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Originally posted by AKWabbit:
To me the solution seems obvious.
Both shooter and friendly should take equal damage.
He should have at LEAST equal motivation not to cut in front of me as I have to check my line of fire. In real life he would have MORE. right now the is little to disuade some yahoo from cutting in line to get shots at the enemy you were already lined up on.
Regards,
Wab
I agree that the thievin' bastige should have a STRONG motivation not to cut in front. Like dying. Horribly. But I don't believe the guy he's trying to rob should take damage. After all, he didn't create the situation with a friendly in front. Sure, penalize him, but at least let him keep flying this hop. Let him blow the thief out of the way and get his target. The consequences should apply after the mission, when his boss looks at his guncam film (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-Bullethead <CAF>
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
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Don't forget that your information on the other plane may be couple of seconds out of date. That makes abusing killshooter intentionally maneuvring in front of other person's guns to be shot practically impossible - almost like ramming.
There easily may be a situation that each one of you is seeing the other plane in front of him. That is a problem with net-lag.
Also, a complete absence of peripheral vision is a huge hindrance.
miko
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Killshooter is the most effective dweeb-bane I've seen in an online game. In the entire time I've played AH (since the beta), I have killed myself twice with it. Once was the typical hard manuvering furball and just happen to ping a friendly, the other was when I was vulching NME fighters at their base, we captured the base and as I killed the NME on the runway, a friendly spawned. So its a NON-ISSUE for me in terms of it hindering my gameplay.
I have however seen at least 50 occations when a newbie/jerk decides they can have fun shooting at the closest plane...which of course is a fellow countryman who just took off ahead of them....they learn pretty quick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If there was no killshooter we would have HT spending their limited resources tracking down the "problem players". I'd rather they work on new updates than track down cheaters and dweebs.
(http://home.tampabay.rr.com/strategy/YAK9.gif)
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I use to play a game were no damage occurs if you hit a friendly so your just wasting ammo, I think that may be a better system here. Its hardly fair that if your in a dogfight with someone and a vulture dives in to steal your kill and fly's through your burst you die? As someone already pointed out rude flying tactics seem to be on the rise since the new ranking sys.
2) I fly a spit most of the time I'm not in a Buff and don't have allot of ammo to waste parting out airplanes mid flight, If I blow off someone's tail feathers Ill break off and let them tumble to earth.
Its extremely irritating to look over your wing and see some jerk pinging your kill all the to the dirt (for those) Yep I wish I could blow them out of the sky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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DG 483rd Tactical Fighter/Bomber wing
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killshooter is the worst idea ever.
the reasons why have already been said
44MAG
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Originally posted by john9001:
killshooter is the worst idea ever.
the reasons why have already been said
44MAG
The reasons for it far outweigh the reasons to get rid of it.
-SW
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Bullethead, your argument isn't logical. You say that there should be a PNG system so that if you shoot your own side you'll be punished for it, but you also say the main problem is not the shooter, but those who jump in with E and steal the kill. So if it's not the shooter's fault why should he be punished with PNG?
The bottom line is that the great majority of the time friendly fire is the shooter's fault. Getting pinged by a friendly when I'm lined up on a target is the last thing I need. More often than not the pings won't be enough to kill me, but may make me break off my attack, so the shooter is not punished at all but I become a victim of his carelessness. Plus if I end up shooting myself because some dweeb jumps in front of me that seems a much less harsher punishment than going PNG for 24 hours or whatever. Hence killshooter is the best solution to a tricky issue.