Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: NUKE on December 23, 2002, 07:18:30 PM
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...will never be known to man.
The fact that the matter that is the universe exists cannot be explained by man.
What created the matter if matter can not be created or destroyed?
What created the creator of matter?
What caused the matter (Universe) to expand? And what caused the event that caused the matter to expand, and so on..... back into infiniity?
Can anyone honestly say they think they have a clue about the origins of the universe or existance of life?
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Religious people will say they do. Scientists will say they have some ideas that have supporting evidence. They don't know though.
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It was just a really big bang... a really BIG bang!
LOL that is from a "Bloom County" comic (Oliver Wendel Jones to his dad)... i just wish i had a pic of it to put in here :D
gotta love the mentality of it :)
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I created the universe...I was up late one night and kind of bored. It turned out pretty chaotic, but at least I got Dr Pepper and corn dogs out of the deal.
SOB
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Try this......
Just finished reading this theory.
A dry read, but interesting....
The 12th Planet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038039362X/104-5784994-9453556?vi=glance)
Regards,
Badger
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It was just a really big bang... a really BIG bang!
like saying websters dictionary could have been created by an explosion in a print shop.
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Originally posted by NUKE
...will never be known to man.
The fact that the matter that is the universe exists cannot be explained by man.
What created the matter if matter can not be created or destroyed?
What created the creator of matter?
What caused the matter (Universe) to expand? And what caused the event that caused the matter to expand, and so on..... back into infiniity?
Can anyone honestly say they think they have a clue about the origins of the universe or existance of life?
A. Matter can be created.... E=MC**2
With enough energy, one could create matter... and it is relatively easier to create energy from matter.
One of the laws of thermodynamics says that energy could not be created or destroyed, only converted... this law was also modifiedby E=MC**2
B. Quantum mechanics postulates that probability governs the realm of the very small. The origins of the universe are in that realm. The universe was created because it could be.
C. Heat. ---> Energy. ---> Quantum mechanic probability.---> Kuuullax
D. No
Praise Kuuullax! Death to Infidels! Hail to High Priest Grunherz!:D
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Good one SOB!
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Kuuullax, the dung beetle god, created the universe. He was bored too but I dont think he is as fond of corn dogs as SOB... :D
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Quantum Mechanics at work...Helium^3 atoms will flow thru holes in filters that are smaller than the atoms themselves. Their wave nature is flowing thru the holes and they "appear" on the other side.
HC
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Originally posted by NUKE
[BWhat caused the matter (Universe) to expand? And what caused the event that caused the matter to expand, and so on..... back into infiniity? [/B]
Big bang had caused the expanding universe we have now. Even tough i am a religious person, i do believe in the Big Bang theory.
So many questions to ask, so little time....
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A. Matter can be created.... E=MC**2
With enough energy, one could create matter... and it is relatively easier to create energy from matter.
One of the laws of thermodynamics says that energy could not be created or destroyed, only converted... this law was also modifiedby E=MC**2
B. Quantum mechanics postulates that probability governs the realm of the very small. The origins of the universe are in that realm. The universe was created because it could be.
C. Heat. ---> Energy. ---> Quantum mechanic probability.---> Kuuullax
D. No
a. before there was anything, what could have created this energy?
b. roadkill ( no offense to you) That's almost that same as saying magic created the universe (to which I would ask, what created magic)
c. without matter, what caused the heat and energy?
d. I agree
Someone answered that he Big Bang started the expansion of the Universe.
Part of my question was "what caused the Big Bang?", and then, what caused the event that caused the Big Bang, and on and on.
In other words, the starting point of the Big Bang can never be logically determined, because it would mean looking back on an infinite chain of events.
Just as it is too simple ( asinine) to say that all matter was created "because it could be", it is equally simple to just say the "Big Bang" caused the expansion without asking what caused the Big Bang and, in turn, what caused the event that caused the Big Bang.... and what caused that event....... and so on, forever....
And this Big Bang is not even dealing with the issue of what created all the matter in the Universe. It can't be reasoned (IMO) that all the matter just always existed, yet it cannot be reasoned that it was created from nothing either.
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I'm with Nuke - we simply don't have the first clue.
We don't know what gravity is - we know what it does but not what it is.
We haven't got our head round time yet.
We can't travel past our own moon yet.
We think we know all the forces of nature - the paranormal is sci-fi rubbish - take a couple of two way radios back to the middle ages and see what happens to you :D
If there was a Big Bang we have no idea where the stuff from the Bang came from.
Do I care ?? - It's really impressive and I'm only here for a few years - I just want to enjoy it.
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We dont have a clue, but I bet some nomadic desert dwelling goatherders from 2000 years ago sure knew what the hell happend.... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by NUKE
...What created the matter if matter can not be created or destroyed?
matter is desrtoyed in stars contantly. occasionaly it is desroyed in kazakhstan, japan, new mexico, small pacific atolls & under the himalyas.
most endothermic nuclear reactions 'create' matter
What created the creator of matter?
if you do cosmological physics backwards, including special & general relativity, you realize that the universe is infinitley old (the start time is infinitly long ago). the nitwits (steven weinberg, et al) that say the period of time between the big oscar bang & the decoupling of energy & matter was 300000 seconds are talking about seconds in our rest frame. the universe being infinitley old, there is no creator
What caused the matter (Universe) to expand? And what caused the event that caused the matter to expand, and so on..... back into infiniity?
matter isn't itself expanding, its just spreading out (the density of the universe is decreasing) at a rate of 20 - 100 m/s/parsec. my own experiment in this area gave me a result of 42 m/s/parsec
Can anyone honestly say they think they have a clue about the origins of the universe or existance of life?
yes, but apparently not you.
most who say yes are quite egomaniacal
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e=mc2 is a conversion between energy states. There is potential enery bound up in the connections of atoms which is then released.
IIRC
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Originally posted by NUKE
a. before there was anything, what could have created this energy?
b. roadkill ( no offense to you) That's almost that same as saying magic created the universe (to which I would ask, what created magic)
c. without matter, what caused the heat and energy?
d. I agree
Someone answered that he Big Bang started the expansion of the Universe.
Part of my question was "what caused the Big Bang?", and then, what caused the event that caused the Big Bang, and on and on.
In other words, the starting point of the Big Bang can never be logically determined, because it would mean looking back on an infinite chain of events.
Just as it is too simple ( asinine) to say that all matter was created "because it could be", it is equally simple to just say the "Big Bang" caused the expansion without asking what caused the Big Bang and, in turn, what caused the event that caused the Big Bang.... and what caused that event....... and so on, forever....
a. E=MC**2... The equation is valid for 0=0C**2 as well as for non zero amounts. Matter and energy were created out of the big bang like borrowing money to buy a house. You borrow, and can spend, but you owe as much as you have, so you really don't have any money.
b. Quantum probability doesn't make sense. Richard Feynman, Nobel winning physist, said that there are probably a few dozen who understand relativity, (1950's) but "Nobody understands Quantum Physics" He was an expert in the field. Quantum physics says the universe created itself because it probably could.
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if you do cosmological physics backwards, including special & general relativity, you realize that the universe is infinitley old (the start time is infinitly long ago). the nitwits (steven weinberg, et al) that say the period of time between the big oscar bang & the decoupling of energy & matter was 300000 seconds are talking about seconds in our rest frame. the universe being infinitley old, there is no creator
If the universe is infinitley old, how can there be a start point as you say, " infinitly long ago"..... that is a contradiction.
A start point at any point is a begining, which means something existed or happened before that start point in order to influence or put into motion the start point event. Saying something is infinitly old is the same as saying it always existed.
Maybe the Universe has always existed......maybe the Universe is God... Some things are way beyond man's comprehension IMO.
Some of these theories are no better than simply stateing that God created the Universe.
Good responses to the thread. It's fun (for me) to REALLY think about these things sometimes.
:)
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Mankind created the term "infinity"...meaning "for ever". But, as humans we cannot logically understand this concept...because we are mortal. For us there is always a beginning and an end.
I agree with you Nuke...we don't know how it happened and we will never know. I think the human mind cannot understand the "answer" even if it exists.
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If this is one of those philosophical questions like "can anything ever really be known?", or are you really interested in trying to answer the questions?
You see, the important thing is not the answer but the question. Assuming that you can never know something is stupid and dangerous. This is the only true drawback to organized religion.
There are some very plausible explanations for the Universe... If you're interested look here:
http://www.discover.com/apr_02/featguth.html
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If this is one of those philosophical questions like "can anything ever really be known?", or are you really interested in trying to answer the questions?
You see, the important thing is not the answer but the question. Assuming that you can never know something is stupid and dangerous. This is the only true drawback to organized religion.
There are some very plausible explanations for the Universe... If you're interested look here:
http://www.discover.com/apr_02/featguth.html
Yeah, I'd love to know the answer, but I don't think you or the link can tell me.
I do assume that I will never know the answer..... so how is that "stupid"or "dangerous"?
I read that article and I am not impressed.
Theoretically, anything—a dog, a house, a planet—can pop into existence by means of this quantum quirk, which physicists call a vacuum fluctuation.
They call that a vacume fluction, I have another term. :)
Believing the universe and all it's contents "popped" into existence out of nothing only makes me believe we need a new theory. At least it answers part of my question regarding the Big Bang . At least people are looking at what happened and what was created before that event.
I don't believe anyone is going to nail down the answer ( How the Universe was Created) and be able to prove it anytime soon.
I asked because it's fascinating to think about.
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I could come up with more drawbacks to organised religion, midnight.
Much prefer personal faiths instead of a canned TV dinner type most socalled religious people subscribe to. There are those that practise what they preach though, like Kieran and others.
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Pondering the imponderable may lead to enlightenment or just drive ya nuts. Remember this guy? probably too much wine (http://www.timecube.com)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If this is one of those philosophical questions like "can anything ever really be known?", or are you really interested in trying to answer the questions?
You see, the important thing is not the answer but the question. Assuming that you can never know something is stupid and dangerous. This is the only true drawback to organized religion.
There are some very plausible explanations for the Universe... If you're interested look here:
You hit it right on the head. We don't know at the moment. But to assume that there is no answer is folly. It may not be answered in our life time, but it will be eventually despite politicians and clergy.
One day a child walked out of a cave/climbed down from a tree, or whatever. He/she asked a tribal elder why? Meaning existance etc. For lack of an answer he/she made something up. On that day religion was born. It's been an up hill struggle against the imagined and the real ever since.
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In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the Earth.
Prove it wrong...
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I am God.
Prove it wrong...
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Vishnu is the true god!
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Originally posted by BNM
In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the Earth.
Prove it wrong...
Prove it Right.
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Kinda doubt it SOB but... ;)
Don't have to twolf, you'll find out soon enough. :D I only hope you are prepared.
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BNM I'm assuming you are a Christian, most likely some sort of Protestant as you are in the USA.
What if the common biblical god:
Favors Catholics?
Favors Muslims?
Favors Jews?
What if the real god is:
Is the main Hindu God?
Is Zeus?
Is Ra?
Is Kuuullax? <---- ( BTW: Correct Answer)
Is in fact, SOB?
or
Is a real SOB?
Will you then be prepared?
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Yup.
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But under any of those you would likely go to hell... How dooo you choose?
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Originally posted by K98k
like saying websters dictionary could have been created by an explosion in a print shop.
where do you people get this drivel? it's nowhere near like that. imagine the level of dyssemetry it would take for an explosion to produce a bound, spellchecked, margined dictionary- the asymmetric nature of the early hot dense universe that allowed for the creation of matter was nowhere near that off, it was very subtle- oh well i guess folksy crap like that goes over well at parties, provided no one there actually knows what they're talking about.
this whole conversation is just more of the 'we must be special' philosophy again. if the initial conditions weren't just the way they were then we wouldn't have 3 spatial dimensions and time to live in so why do you think we popped out of some place like that? what are the chances.....you talk about the place our universe sprang from like it's a place we can imagine or be familiar with, like it's a place with physics just like here except black and empty- that's very inprobable and for the time being completely unknowable.
the "it's complex, so god surely did it" thing is a riot and makes me wish i was born 500 years from now when you people are just a paragraph in a historical trivia book instead of now when your fairey tales are still holding peoples attention somehow.
i guess i can't blame you though- i'm on vacation in oklahoma right now and there are churches on every corner, inspirational supply stores, nonstop tv and radio church crap, church notices on a crawler during the news, bilboards with giant pictures of jesus and some sappy saying, tee shirts...etc etc etc i guess if they advertise it enough they can sell anything.
why not focus on what we can understand and go from there instead of demanding to be fed one giant bite that you can swallow all at once? it's the quest for immediate easy answers that has cause so many myths and untruths to be floating around. what's the rush?
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Originally posted by K98k
like saying websters dictionary could have been created by an explosion in a print shop.
The anthropomorphic model says that if the structure of the universe was any different from the way it turned out to be, then we would not be here to ponder it.
And there is a definite probability, however infinitesimal, that Webster's dictionary could be could be ballistically printed, however the principle of increasing entropy says that it probably will not.
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Modern physics, including the special and general theory of reletivity and quantum mechanics, are for the lay person who chooses to except them a kind of faith system, not terribly unlike religion.
Maybe 1000 people understand the math enough to be truly convinced of the of the veracity of these sciences and their conclusions.
But just because I don't understand the math does not mean I am willing to assign a fictional charactor creationistic powers.
F.
what the hell i a 2 spin particle anyway?
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the math behind special relativity is quite simple (it is taught to 2nd year undergrads). general relativity is much more complex & is taught to 1st year grad students. QM, AFAIK, has little to do with cosmology
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Originally posted by whgates3
the math behind special relativity is quite simple (it is taught to 2nd year undergrads). general relativity is much more complex & is taught to 1st year grad students. QM, AFAIK, has little to do with cosmology
Well "au contraire" my friend... my fiancée is a grad student getting her PhD in Cosmology, concretely in Gravitational Waves. QM has its saying in all the big bang story, beginning with the initial Quantum Foam that explains that the void has itself some kind of potential energy and that matter can actually appear from void.
I wish she would agree to write in this forum, but she won't so you'll have to do with the reduced version :)
Daniel
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Interestingly enough.. many scientists claim their observations indicate that the universe is now past middle age and actually collapsing back upon itself..one day the whole place will be a very small incalculably dense mass. Oh, and who the hell goes on vacation to Oklahoma? lol
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If you were to go back 1000 years and try and explain what we know about the universe now, you'd be treated as if you were a madman.
Imagine what another thousand years could bring.
For all we know today, we could be producing our own custom-made universes by then.
Originally posted by Steve
one day the whole place will be a very small incalculably dense mass.
Well at least this is something we can examine today. There are more than enough religious literalists around who's brains we could study. :p
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Originally posted by Steve
Interestingly enough.. many scientists claim their observations indicate that the universe is now past middle age and actually collapsing back upon itself..one day the whole place will be a very small incalculably dense mass. Oh, and who the hell goes on vacation to Oklahoma? lol
Quite recently, observations have been made that may indicate that stars are accellerating away from us, meaning that the Hubble Constant is getting greater. This would tend to indicate some sort of inflationary cosmological period, and some unknown force counteracting gravity's tendency to slow the universe's expansion. This could mean that the "Big Crunch" may not happen at all.... The end of the universe may come with a thermodynamic heat death, when the temperature of the cosmos becomes homogeneous.*1 Isn't the anticipation exiting? I am on pins and needles.... :D
*1 Probably something to do with SUV's and US foreign policy.:D
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Well "au contraire" my friend... my fiancée is a grad student getting her PhD in Cosmology, concretely in Gravitational Waves. QM has its saying in all the big bang story, beginning with the initial Quantum Foam that explains that the void has itself some kind of potential energy and that matter can actually appear from void.
I wish she would agree to write in this forum, but she won't so you'll have to do with the reduced version :)
Daniel
ja, the interactions between photons & atoms are a big deal too, and certianly governed by QM, but gravity seems to be the key player in cosmology after 'the 1st 300000 seconds'...ask your lady friend if gravitons exist, & if so how do you figure their mean free path length
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Originally posted by Steve
Oh, and who the hell goes on vacation to Oklahoma? lol
people who can't afford to go to arkansas obviously.
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Virtual Paticles abound in vacumn. All you have to do is input enought energy to overcome the Uncertainy Principle of DeltaE*DeltaT=>Hbar add enought energy and the Time they can exist increases to the point they can be detected.
HC
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Originally posted by hardcase
Virtual Paticles abound in vacumn. All you have to do is input enought energy to overcome the Uncertainy Principle of DeltaE*DeltaT=>Hbar add enought energy and the Time they can exist increases to the point they can be detected.
HC
Most of these theories require matter/heat/energy combo to work......
How can you have heat or energy without matter?
I wonder what created all the matter in the first place. And if there was once a time when no matter existed, how could energy or heat be created?
Obviously matter is here, so it must have been created somehow..... or maybe it always existed, which is amazing to try to comprehend.
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Everything we know today was created by humans.
Everything made by humans has a percentage of human error..
There's a good chance everything we know is completely wrong by the universe's standards.
There's also a good chance that SOB is indeed God.... but for now, he's just a God to me.
Screw Kuulax, he's had it out for me since day 1!
-SW
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Originally posted by BNM
Kinda doubt it SOB but... ;)
Don't have to twolf, you'll find out soon enough. :D I only hope you are prepared.
I am very prepared. Are you? Without carring a very fun debate into a debate about religion. I will say that I am not an atheist. I do have a set of beliefs. But I choose not to impose my beliefs on others. Religion is a personal quest. I have completed mine and I am content.
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the Big Bang ???
just one of the most recent attempts to explain something beyond our comprehension.
the 'Big Bang' theory (and I stress theory) is being pushed aside by a lot of scientists in favor of a different theory of multi-verses..
bottom line:
another new theroy to explain something we can't comprehend.
we'll never know in this lifetime and who cares?
does it affect how we live now?
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Sorry haven't read quite all the posts but.....
Re Matter being created out of nothing :
If you look in a vacuum "virtual particles" particles are always popping in annd out of exsistance. This is due to the uncertainty principle. These particles can "borrow" energy (=mass) but the more energy you borrow the quicker you have to pay it back. So a large loan will have to be paid back quickly. If the particle does not pay this loan back it will disappear however if some external energy is given to this virtual particle it can become real and exsist like any other particle.
This loan can be seen in a way in quantum tunneling (like alpha radiation) a very familiar phenomen now. Yet this is not an idea some wacko has pulled out the air. Just by constructing the schrodingers wave a equation for a particle in a potential well and using simple physics which apply to waves at a boundary (normal waves e.g. sound waves). We can see by looking at the transmission of the wave that there is a finite probability of the particle appearing at the other side of the potential barrier.
RE origin of our universe
I read an interesting theory to do with "false vacuums". If you think of an electron in an atom in it's ground state, that is the position of lowest energy, this elctron can get excited into higher states of energy. There is thought to be an analogue of this with a vacuum i.e. it can get excited. This is thought to be a process by which inflation occured in the early universe where the universe expanded enormously. It has been proposed if there is a small bubble of false vacuum surrounded by true vacuum it would expand rapidly (like our universe in the early stages). However it would not expand in our space it would in effect create a baby universe. It is possible that we are one of these baby universes. Amazing! (i know nothing of the maths of all this so i could not really defend it though). But where did the mother universe come from:)
There is also a possibility that our universe is still in a false vacuum in a metastable state (ie in a local energy minmum). If a small region of space was to achieve enough energy to get out of this minimum back to the vacuum ground state this small bubble of true vacuum would expand rapidly in our universe destroying everything in it's path. As higher enrgies are achieved in particle accelerators there is a small worry that if this atte of affaris is the case then we could inadvertantly provide enough energy for this decay and destroy the universe as we know it. Ho-hum.
As far as knowing how the universe was created it must be remembered that time and space itself was created at the big bang so any concept of before is almost meaningless. To give an answer which makes sense in words is unlikley as most of these concepts go beyond our 3 dimensional, mid-scale, slow speed enviroment in which we experience things we understand.
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it must be remembered that time and space itself was created at the big bang
one of many theories about how the universe was created...
and it's falling into disfavor lately.
all of it is theory including 'quark' theory and the theory of 'borrowed energy'. nothing is proven.
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Originally posted by whgates3
If you do cosmological physics backwards, including special & general relativity....
Unfortunately, Hawking debunked special relativity some years ago. Matter CAN be created, but not destroyed. Rather, it is converted into an energy form which may or may not at some future point transition back into matter.
Modern theoretical physics suggests that matter and energy can be used interchangeably in many ways. However, this does nothing whatsoever to support any creationist or Big Bang supporter. The only reasonable explanation at this point is that in one form or another (ie matter vs energy) the universe has ALWAYS existed, therefore its creation is a moot point.
I am not suggesting that the universe as we know it has always existed in this form. Rather that the building blocks it is constructed from were a remnant of what came before, which was itself constructed of the remnants of what came before.
As far as the theological implications of creation, as in where did God come from, there is some considerable material available on the subject. One school of thought maintains that God does not know where He came from, only that He is. His creation of man was/is an attempt to see if he could create beings who would someoday evolve into beings like Himself. But I digress.
I am neither a theologist nor a physicist... I've simply always been interested in this particular subject.
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Oh, I almost forgot something...a little pet peeve of mine. The Third Law of Thermodynamics: The absolute entropy of a perfect crystalline substance at absolute zero is zero. Besides giving you a handy baseline by which to measure entropy, what possible purpose could this serve? IS there any such thing as a PERFECT crystalline substance?
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Originally posted by paulieb
Unfortunately, Hawking debunked special relativity some years ago....
relative to others in his field, Steven Hawkings is a nincompoop.
you'd have never heard of him if he wasn't in a wheelchair. special relativity is accepected as fact by just about everyone in the field & is not much more than the doppler effect with a fancy name
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To answer paul, no.