Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on December 27, 2002, 06:15:40 AM
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Test purpose:
Measure the max G load and elevator authority of several planes diving at 550mph.
Test conditions:
Terrain dueling, base A1, Alt 15k.
All planes loaded with 50% fuel, taking off by North.
All planes diving vertically untill 550mph, trimmed for speed, then recovering pulling stick as hard as possible without manual trim.
Results:
Ta152H - 6.5g for a fraction of second.
190D9 - 6g for a fraction of second.
190A8 - 6g for a fraction of second.
Typhoon - Well above 9g substained, after some seconds pulling > 9g, wings broke.
Video:
Diving and max G at hi speed test (http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/diving.zip)
Conclussion:
Just a question, how is possible so noticeable difference between any 190 and Typh elevator control at hi speeds?
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Isn't it that the typhy has those big fat wing ... I mean reaaaaaaaally thick.
Try the P47, good luck to rip the wings... oh wait... 550 you will be compressing in a P47:rolleyes: no test for you.
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"All planes diving vertically untill 550mph, trimmed for speed"
Am I reading this right to mean you were trimming the planes into the dive?
J_A_B
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JAB, once diving, combat trim enabled, you can see that in the film.
Frenchy, no compression at all with Typh at 550, it is even able of 9G substained.
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Don't trim into the dives Mandoble, this will affect some planes more than others.
J_A_B
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it doesnt matter the typh can hit 600 with no compression...........
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ki61 has very strong wing - they modelled it well. :cool:
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I'm not saying whether the Typhoon is right or wrong, just that as a matter of policy during diving tests, trimming into the dive is not a great idea because it will affect some airplanes more than others.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Wotan
it doesnt matter the typh can hit 600 with no compression...........
No compression is one thing, but > 9g substained at 560mph is another. Both, IMO, a complete exageration.
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Frenchy, I did the test with P47D30. No compression at 550mph and also able of 9G substained.
Why 190 family can handle only 6 or 6.5 for a fraction of sencond while P47 and Typh can substain 9G, where is the big difference?
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But we all know the Tiffie was a supreme fighter at all altitudes. We also know for a fact, that is suported by aeorynamic facts and theories and physic laws that the thicker the wing is, the better high speed handeling. :rolleyes:
Give it up Mandoble, not worth it.
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you bunch of hidden-agenda-luftwhiners !
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Well, this field is plowed and harrowed to a fine powder.
Are you just going to continue to talk amongst yourselves or are you going to do something?
Any one of you willing to take your case to the top?
(817) 251-1540
Ask for Pyro.
Or would you rather just enjoy the injustice of it all over and over again?
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undeniable proof met with derision or nothing at all.
its the htc way
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i wonder if there are any german companies working on a WWII flight sim...apparently VVS planes in IL2 are invincible & accoring to this @least one US plane is overly tough in this US built sim...of course the Jug had a reputation for sturdiness that i've never of about the 190, but i've never read a book by a 190 driver...
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Originally posted by Hristo
you bunch of hidden-agenda-luftwhiners !
wen't you a luft whiner?
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I got to know the universe, or something like that ;)
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uhm...don't mean to dissagree with ya Mandoble, but
I quite clearly see 9 G's for longer than a fraction of a second.
190 D9
Only i used auto level instead. just saying it's perfectly capable of 9G's
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Heheh. "Undeniable" proof? Of what I wonder? I'm going to go with unfounded paranoia.
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uhm...don't mean to dissagree with ya Mandoble, but
hehe.
at most i guess your test just proves that 190's require more trimming than a typhoon.
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Towd, you're US based. Why don't you round up the "undeniable proof" and call Pyro? I'm sure your compatriots will help you build the package of proof.
Better yet... you're Texas based, aren't you? You could drop it by.
Might as well get a definitive answer, eh? Rather than rolling around in all this misery on the BBS?
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of course the Jug had a reputation for sturdiness that i've never of about the 190, but i've never read a book by a 190 driver...
Then i really do sugest you go and buy some good 190 books as it was VERY KNOWN to take alot of punishment and get home.
at most i guess your test just proves that 190's require more trimming than a typhoon.
Which is sooo wrong too, the 190's didn't require any trimming at all when changing speeds, they could trim the elevator some but wasn't needed. It satyed stable in all speeds.
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for clarity.
at most your test proves that a 190 requires more trim "IN ACES HIGH" than a typhoon.
Wilbus, he's trying to find a weakness where there is none. it's a game, have fun.
Which is sooo wrong too, the 190's didn't require any trimming at all when changing speeds, they could trim the elevator some but wasn't needed. It satyed stable in all speeds.
use combat trim to SIMULATE the fact that the 190 did not require trimming while in flight ;)
no offense Wilbus, just pokin ya abit :)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Then i really do sugest you go and buy some good 190 books as it was VERY KNOWN to take alot of punishment and get home.
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i'd love to, but i try to stick to reading primary sources (pilot autobiographies) & have come across only two LW vets to write up their experiences, both 109 drivers (adolph dickfeld - also involved w/ He162 - "footsteps of the hunter" & Heinke Knoke "I flew for the fuhrer")...Galland i have not read, as his book has been thoroughly denegrated...you know any others?
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RgR Whgates, the good ones are hard to find but they exist. I sugest you go and get the book called "Focke Wulf Fw 190 in Combat" by "Alfred Price". It contains combat reports by both fighter pilots and attack pilots (both flying 190's) first hand info from test pilots flying the Mistel (190 with a Ju88 underneth it). Flight reports by Kurt Tank aswell as much more text by Kurt Tank aswell as from several 190 test pilots.
I love the book, not much raw technical info but more of the combat report type of book and the idea behind the 190.
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Rgr Pugg, not sure if there is one here when it comes to sustained G turns. However, there are problems with the 190's that have been proven, won't mention any of them here but they exist.
I am about to stop caring anymore (still care some) and take it for what it is instead.
As for Combat trim, could use it sure but shouldn't have to if the Flight modeling in AH was correct :)
And no offence taken mate :)
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pugg666, try 9g substained with 190D9/Ta152 at 550 mph: plain impossible.
Toad, what do you recomend me to do? I've posted about the almost null elevator control at hi speeds with 190s a lot of times, what more to do about that? just to give up and admit that Pyro is right, 190s were just plain briks above 500 mph while P47 or Typh were historically able of 9Gs substained at that speed? Sorry Toad, I'm not going to buy that, and I'm not able to do more than these tests and the films.
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Diving the P-47D-30 from 30k at MIL power straight down, you will lock up at 550 true air speed. At this point you have almost zero control. You can pull out of the dive, but to do so successfully (without use of dive flaps) requires throttling back, trimming up elevator, and letting the nose come up slowly, pulling about 5-6Gs. It is possible to aggressively pull out, but not at sustained > 9 G as is suggested here. Once you slow down below compressability speeds, the aircraft noses up hard and once you exceed 9G your head explodes (you find yourself in tower 'heaven' suddenly) or you'll rip a wingtip off.
Diving the FW-190D9 or A8, you will lock up at 575 mph, 25 mph faster than the jug. P-51 is about 565. Typhoon is tough to gauge since you have to view the TAS in film viewer and watch where it locks up there, but it looks to lock up at about 565-575.
Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Maybe someone can explain it to me.
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Sancho, your tests is very different than mine. Diving from 30k to 20k is very different than diving to 2k. No compression at all 550mph with P47 at that alt and 9g substained available.
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1. IF I had as big a problem with some area of the game as you appear to have and
2. IF I felt that I had posted my perception of the problem AND a clear, unambiguous evidence of the problem and some sort of "proof" that something was wrong and
3. IF I thought no one at HTC was listening
THEN
I'd do one of two things.
First, I'd call them on the phone, ask for Pyro since it's an FM thing and I'd ask him if he'd read my stuff and what did he think. Then I'd discuss it further depending on what he said. This is by far the first and best choice. Person to person contact is the best and quickest way for you to get an answer and relieve yourself of the obvious discomfort this problem is causing you.
If I couldn't afford the relatively minor cost of such a call, I'd write a cogent, polite letter explaining my point of view and include "certified" paper copies of documentary evidence supporting my postion as well as a CD with films from the game to show what I"m talking about. I'd send an E-Mail to Pyro telling him I was sending him this package. I'd send it Pyro and then I'd wait. If I didn't hear anything in say a month, I'd send another E-Mail.
That's what I'd do. But I can't ever imagine myself in that position for reasons too numerous to mention. It is, after all, just a game to me.
Still, you can do whatever you want. However, you've already stated that your repeated posts here on the BBS are not providing a satisfactory solution for you.
So why continue?
As Sax says in his sig "Quit blowin' on the fur and get down to the hide!"
Phone call is the best. I think you'll find Pyro a very rational, intelligent person who can explain his position quite well and without rancor.
Good luck!
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Toad, I find this BBs more than adecuate to post my, yours, Pyro's or whoever oppinions/replies.
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Wilbus: However, there are problems with the 190's that have been proven, won't mention any of them here but they exist.
You just assume there are, if you are refering to roll rate, we did a test of the D9 just before release 1.11 it was correct, but a chart some one posted once did not have the ah correct roll rate values. So once again get off the luftwiner conspericy theroy.
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Well, Mandoble, then I guess you aren't REALLY interested in getting anything changed then, are you?
Because you yourself have said you're not getting any satisfactory answers with this method.
It leads me to believe that you just like wallowing in your misery and perhaps would be even more unhappy if you didn't have a " noble cause" for which to sacrifice yourself.
So, wallow away. Enjoy the angst. :D
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oddly enough i went to the bookstore today (powell's - best bookstore west of the mississippi) & found "Heaven Next Stop" by Abbeville boy & 190 driver Gunther Bloemertz...so far book seems not to focus on planes...more like "Flight to Arras" than "Thunderbolt"
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Hitech, not at all refering to roll rate, I find nothing wrong with it at all, nor do I find anything wrong with the other 190's roll rate nor the the 109's roll rate.
Did alot of tests comparing the Spit 5 and 9 to the 190 A5 (A5 being better then A3 which was used in R/L) and the Spit (both of them) outperformed the 190 in almost every way except maximum level speed. The 190 was said by both pilots who flew it, those who encountered it and those RAF test pilots who flew it to be a much better accelerating aircraft in dives, much better then spit 5 in level flight and slightly better then the Spit 9 in level flight (acceleration wise). Pulling up from a high speed dive it outzoomed the Spit 5 with eas, as did it from level flight. The spit 9 was almost as good when pulled up from level flight while the 190 was quite much better when pulled up from a high speed dive. The Turn rate of the 190 was no match for the spit and both spits could easily outturn it.
I have the test reports if you like them, they exist on the web aswell. So really, after reading test reports, combat reports by RAF and LW pilots, test reports from RLM and Focke Wulf there is really no way I can be convinced the flight modell of the 190 and Ta152 is right (Ta152 should btw have its maximum speed at 41,000 feet where the Jumo 213 E-1 using GM1 had its best altitude, ours have it at 31,000 feet) in AH.
By saying this, I don't say that AH is bad, I love it and I always have since the first day I played it, a few hours after the Beta was released. it's the best online flight sim there has ever been and will be for a good deal of time in the future.
I don't in anyway think there is some kind of anti Luftwaffe conspiracy, this only seams like a bad defence for alot of people who don't know what I am talking about. The 109's feel really good and they are just as bad in high speed as I expect them to be (again, after test reports that seam to line up very well with AH 109 FM). The 262 is exelent as is the 163 (too good as we don't have to suffer engine failures).
But I do think you need to look over your Focke Wulf 190/Ta152 numbers again, maybe twice too. If nothing else, it is quite clear that the 190's needed no trimming while flying, not in dives or level flight. Sure this could be countered by combat trim but should it have too?
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More tests, diving from 15k and pulling out at 550mph (all of them diving vertically with combat trim enabled and WEP):
Typhoon >9G substained
Tempest >9G substained
P40E 9G substained
P47D30 9G substained
P51D 8.5G substained
La7 5G substained
Yak9U 4.8G substained
Ta152H 6.5G for a fraction of second, then 4G substained.
190A8 6G for a fraction of second, then 4G substained.
190D9 6G for a fraction of second, then 4G for 2 seconds and then controls lockup and crash.
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190D9 6G for a fraction of second, then 4G for 2 seconds and then controls lockup and crash.
Stick Problem? Shouldn't lock up ones yer in turn.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Stick Problem? Shouldn't lock up ones yer in turn.
No Stick problem. Step by step it is as follows:
1 - D9 diving vertically with WEP and combat trim enabled from 15k.
2 - At 550mph, I start pulling stick as hard as possible getting 6G for a fraction of second.
3 - G load drops abruptly to 4G, but keeps there only for 2 more seconds, not enough to put the plane on level flight. D9 still diving, so, accelerating, the stick alone is not able to recover D9 to horizontal flight.
4 - G load drops quickly as speed increases, controls lockup and crash with the sea.
All the tests were done with combat trim, no manual trim applied to exit the dive.
I dont know where the problem is, cobat trim responsiveness? trim respose? elevators? dont know, but the difference between 190D9 and Typhoon/P51/P47/P40 elevator control is enormous at hi speeds, just where, supposedly, 190D9 shines.
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Aha, ok, now I understand.
Btw, how do you messure the G? Remove blackouts from flying offline or look at film or something?
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I just record the flights. And blackouts are not present using film viewer.
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Mandoble,
watch my film.
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hehehe pugg666, good try. In your video, it is clear you simply push the autolevel button, u didnt use the stick to exit the dive.
Now try the same but using the stick and combat trim alone, wep on all the time and dont use the autolevel feature. Autolevel trims your plane for level flight inmediately, much faster than u are able to manual trim the plane, btw, IMO, in a frankly unrealistic way.
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He did write that he used autolevel in the post far up :)
However no it's not the same...
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Could it possibly have something to do with joystick settings? I ask because my results were a little different- with the 190a8 I got about 5.5-6Gs sustained after going to 575 TAS, pulled out with out 2k left under me. Diving from 15k after I let the speed get to 200 mph in level flight.
With the 190D9 I got about 6G's sustained- I never hit 9 G's at all.
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this bok i got from the 190 pilot is quite excellent - full of revelations. in one section he dives in his 190a away from B-17s & thunderbolts to "well over 800 kms" - probably indicated airspeed as he says the needles was at the stop - and pulls out using the motor driven elevator trim (stick was immobilized by slipstream)...no mention of G meter readings, but he blacked out. also interesting is that he says he could pull more G w/out blacking out by putting his head between his knees, so maybe if you look at the floor & zoom in, the blackout effect should be reduced
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Originally posted by Urchin
With the 190D9 I got about 6G's sustained- I never hit 9 G's at all.
Urchin, joy setting indicate max pitch in both ways when I pull/push it to extremes. I repeated the test five times with same results and never was able to get 6G substained, only for a millisecond (just a bounce to 6G and then drop to 4 for a pair of seconds).
Please, be sure test conditions are the same:
Terrain dueling, base A1 (15k), taking off N runaway.
Offline mode.
190D9 50% fuel.
WEP and combat trim enabled.
As soon as you take off, start a pure vertical dive to the sea and try to recover once speed touches 550mph (red neddle), wep and combat trim still enabled.
Dont use manual trim, just pull joy as hard as possible until level flight is achieved.
If following these steps you are able to keep 6G substained, please, film it and post the file here. 6G substained implies 6G since your start to pull the joy until you achieve a level flight.
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Whgates, what book? :)
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some other interesting info in "Heaven Next Stop" by 190 pilot Gunther Bloemertz (not related to this thread but interesting nontheless)...in spring '44 toejamler ordered LW pilots to stop attacking bomber boxes head on as they weren't stopping enough of the bombers (remember that LW guncam film that was posted a few months ago & how everyone was wondering why those nitwits were attacking from astern?)...homosexuality was tolerated amongst LW pilots (@least in JG 26)...still only halfway done w/ book
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Think homosexuality was accepted in all of LW as was "other" thoughts as long as the high commands (Göring etc) didn't find out. From the books I've read, those few who were Nazis in LW were'nt popular at all amongst the others in the squad.
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Achtung! bellybutton Bandits!
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Ok, did the test again, got a little bit under 6G's sustained for the 190D9. Did it three times, 1 time the plane did seem to overspeed and lost elevator authority and it augered.
The other two times it pulled out OK.
Started my own thread about the Typhoon, really because I'm confused about this one. Whats the point of this one? What are you trying to say? That the 190 is undermodelled or the Typhoon is overmodelled, or both?
Furthermore, what evidence do you have to suggest that the 190 could pull out harder than it does, and what evidence that the Typhoon couldn't pull out as hard as it does?
I don't have anything either way, just to clear that up.
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eww... double post. First time thats happened to me I think.
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Urchin, as far as I know, Typh would compress before 550mph at sea level, my test and video demostrated that a Typh diving vertically at 560 MPH near sea level can still pull more than 9G substained.
In the other hand, I repeated the test 2 more times, no way with 190D9 to get 6 or 5.5G substained. Are u sure u dived perfectly vertical?