Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Max on January 03, 2002, 09:39:00 AM
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I know, it's been debated forever but given the horde of AW rr peeps and newbies comin outta the woodwork, perhaps a rr arena would provide a bit more serious flying in the MA.
The constant litany of how do I start my engine? who needs a gunner? combined with the whining, screaming and gang banging are enuff to wanna make ya start yer hair on fire and put it out with a hammer.
I vote for rr. Heck, I'll even volunteer a couple hours a week to "staff/train" Anyone else feel the same?
DmdMax
The Damned MkX :confused:
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Uh oh..........
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Dmax, it'll pass. Folks figure out what to do and those who have too hard a time figuring the key strokes would even if there were an RR mode. Where as an abominable split in the community such as AW had with seperate RR and FR never goes away.
I'm banking that HiTech will never compromise the FM (as he's stated) and I also think that the forced introduction of easy mode in WB's was one of the straws that broke the camels back for not just him alone at I-Magic.
oh and tater "RR"!
Just wanted to say that for old tymes sake :D
But by far the best thing to do is fly the CT!!!! Or if one must stay in the MA just ignore the questions or take a moment to help.
Westy
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No, it’s not time for a RR or should there ever be. There is a learning curve but hell learning is most of the fun.
Zippatuh
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We don't need an RR arena for that type of thing. We have a training arena which they don't use.
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Frost Wrote:
"We have a training arena which they don't
use."
I frequently go into the different arenas including the Training Arena. I see numerous new people asking for A Trainer or if there is any on available to help them in the different arenas. I suppose some of em might learn provided they had someone to teach them. The Training Arena isn't nothing but a furball area for the most part. There has only been a few times I actually seen trainers in there working with anyone. Don't take this wrong, The trainers do help, its just not organized IMHO.
DamnedTC
The Damned MKL
The Damned (http://www.damned.org) :cool:
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Main is RR...
CT is for the big boys...
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If the CT is for the big boys, why do the "big boys" only hang out 20K over their own field?
Sheeit, I shot down 5 allies in a 190A5 over/around their own base and proceeded home to land when I dropped in to check it out.
Ain't exactly difficult...
-SW
[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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I am all for a training system that works. I know some other online flight games had it and I for one found it a good thing. I hope that HT finds a way to improve what we have now.
As far as RR, I would not use it, but I fail to see how it would hurt.
Odessa
The Damned
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<sigh>
<remembers a different time and place where there WAS an organized training arena that WORKED for YEARS>
You remember that place don't ya TC? ;) Yeah--I miss it too. :(
Drano
Oh and btw--RR? Wazzat hehe?
Originally posted by TequilaChaser:
Frost Wrote:
"We have a training arena which they don't
use."
I frequently go into the different arenas including the Training Arena. I see numerous new people asking for A Trainer or if there is any on available to help them in the different arenas. I suppose some of em might learn provided they had someone to teach them. The Training Arena isn't nothing but a furball area for the most part. There has only been a few times I actually seen trainers in there working with anyone. Don't take this wrong, The trainers do help, its just not organized IMHO.
DamnedTC
The Damned MKL
The Damned (http://www.damned.org) :cool:
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No RR.
Training arena is nothing but an FFA. I try to help some folks out but I avoid the TA like the plague. Don't have any admin rights and if you ask some to leave you alone to train someone, it's like a dare to them.
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combat trim was HT's very clever version of easy mode. its better in the fact that it in no way compromises the flight model yet gives newbies a much easier time flying their planes.
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There is also an autotakeoff for newbies.
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And targets like me.... lol
xBAT
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Main is RR...
CT is for the big boys...
agree 100% :cool:
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No RR please.. I my self enjoy the tough learning curve. nothing worse in gaming (ecspecialy a SIM!)than being insulted buy having the game "dumbed down" for your.
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Hmmm... Just went looking for trainers and ways to contact them. It's under the main page "Getting Started".
Training Arena
The Training Arena is where you may go to get away from the excitement of the Main Arena for practice and training. HTC has chosen a staff of qualified trainers who will be available upon request for training of all levels of flight.
Aces High Trainers
Chief Instructor:
Lephturn sconrad@hfx.eastlink.ca null
There used to be an identified group of trainers, 5 to 10 if I remeber correctly. What happened to them? Also, this link is hard to find IMO... It should be on one of the first pages you see.
This is a HARD game... Even if you are familiar with actual flying or other flight simms - no doubt about it. It's like golf, no matter how good you get - you can still get better.
Max - Out
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Lets bring those RR players up to speed. Arcade Warrior(RR)is over.
I like the big numbers we have, a RR arena would only divide AH. Lets keep it one big happy family, unlike Air Warrior FR vs RR.
ATC
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Don't do it HTC!
I was a AW RR pilot and I now really enjoy flying with the realism effects in AH...yes I still suck..but I'm getting better.
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But... why?
Everyone knows that once you start off on RR, you ain't going anywhere else but staying in RR.
-SW
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So Drip is that why you play in the Main ARena :D :D
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I was a RR AW player only because the FR version of AW was just as unrealistic...just with fewer players. Us newbies can figgure this out, it's not rocket science. I'm finding even after a very short time in the game that I'm able to turn with a lot of the more experienced players. It's a short learning curve getting used to this game once a person gets into it. I'm addicted to AH now, and if they did create a RR arena, I'm certain most of us old AW RR players would "just say no". There are notable exceptions though.
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No to RR.
If thats what you want, go to Fighter Ace II/III on the Zone.
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Dmax wrote:
I know, it's been debated forever but given the horde of AW rr peeps and newbies comin outta the woodwork, perhaps a rr arena would provide a bit more serious flying in the MA.
Actually no it hasen't that I recall, at least not here at Ace's. Only debate here has been how to make the FM more realistic, -- be happy he didn't decide to make us prime the carb, switch on mags, contact starter etc. The cowling flap like Il2 has?..Hmm I kinda like --we could debate that.
Because of all the RR players coming in here now, maybe a training class instead of 1v1 training is the way to go. (I would only have training after the two-week trial however)
What happens when you dumb down certain portions of the FM?.. Numbers are altered over here say.. the spin model.. then the get bleeds over in another part of FM.. So that aspect has to be looked at.. What your doing in essence is creating a completely new FM!
HT ain't gonna do that.
Instead he focuses on getting the exact numbers right then uses that as a basis for the next set of planes.. Wouldn't you rather have new planes?.
Answer me this- Why would you pay the same amount as FR players.. but only get half the effects? Thats like people that don't shop at Costco..
10Bears
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I sincerly hope that there never comes an FR/RR split to AH; it's poisonus.
Furthermore, the original poster completly misunderstands what an RR arena does.
It doesn't prepare flyers for FR; it creates RR flyers instead.
Ch1 would still be full of much of the same questions from flyers making the transition from RR to FR ("when do I use flaps?"), and besides, the implication is that all the irritating repetitive distractions should be hived off onto the RR arenas, something the RR arenas them selves would rightly object to. It's analagous to a CT flyer proposing newbies be restricted to the MA. It just won't wash.
Training, and an easy introduction to basics are the way to quell the Ch1 questions.
One flight model, different arena set ups are the way the sim should progress.
I would far rather see pilot aids such as ato take off and combat trim developed further than see the basic underlying physics change. I see such crutches for the beginner as more positive, especialy when there's a tangiable advantage to aquiring the manual skills, and thus incentive.
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I had a 4 year old visitor, shooting down planes, over the holidays. Spitfire + CT + HO = Kills. How much easymode do you need?
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I'd rather see a reorganization of the training arena. There are a quite a number of people in AH that are capable and willing to assist others (not necessarily newbies) into learning AH, and/or re-learning simulated air combat skills.
I would welcome an AH version of the old "Training Academy" or scheduled training nights.
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Originally posted by Citabria:
combat trim was HT's very clever version of easy mode. its better in the fact that it in no way compromises the flight model yet gives newbies a much easier time flying their planes.
Are you taking the position that one key-click of nose up trim or one "simulated" spin of nose up elevator trim really should put your aircraft in a 1500 FPM climb?
I wouldn't think so, given your RL flying experience.
Therefore, you should really know why combat trim was implemented.
The reason you stated isn't it, IMO.
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I'm gonna wade in here also. IMO RR is simply not the way to go. It is unnecessary and will only dilute the game/sim. I too hear the questions from new guys who d/l the files and then expect to simply click the on button for their engines and fly off into the virtual wild blue yonder. It has become annoying at times and, along with the d/l files, there maybe ought to be a caveat; "download these files and go to the BBs to arrange for training",Or something to that effect. There is simply too much to learn in such a short time, and the MA is not the place to try and bring someone up to speed. I mean, to answer a question like: "how come I keep crashing when I try to take off", isn't gonna take 3 minutes on your climbout otw to an nme base.
Anyway, back to RR, no, IMO AH is a flight combat sim with aspects of realism weaved into it, it is what ought to attract people to it. If its a watered down version of air combat that some want, then surely there are other places for them to go.
Our training component needs to be revamped and organized, especially for the independents. I think organized squads tend to take care of their own.
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When I was in AW, I used to fly in both RR and FR, and in fact was in two squads, one in each realism. With the demise of AW, I persuaded my RR squad, the Hell Gods, to try AH and, at first, they found it to be extremely difficult and were all for looking for another sim; however, I encouraged them to persevere and offered to help as much as I could - I had started flying here with my FR squad, the Kraits, when they moved here back in March/April, so I felt I was in a position to be able to help the RR pilots with the transition.
Now, barely a month since the demise of AW, the Hell Gods are rapidly reforming their squad here, with more arriving on a daily basis, and they are having a blast! They have accepted the challenge of learning to fly FR and are doing really well. This is just one RR squad, and I think typical of many other RR squads from AW.
The good thing for me is that, whilst I am no longer able to be a member of their squad as my primary squad is, and always has been, the Krait Squadron, I can now fly with either or both at the same time in the same arena. To create a separate RR arena now would certainly split this new and quite unique community which is now developing - one where former RR and FR pilots now enjoy flying and fighting together in the same arena.
I think, instead of suggesting an RR arena, we should be helping these new players who are arriving daily to get used to AH, and actively encourage them to get the most of out of the game. Help them to find their feet (wings? <g> ), to persevere and not give up to go in search of an easier alternative sim. This has been a unique opportunity to bring together what were two separate communities in AW, into one big one, together with the pure AH pilots - a split now would, I think, be a bad move.
I am now very proud to be a member of this new, single Aces High Community and would like to see it continue well into the future. :)
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Since I'm the guy who started this conversation, I offer thanks towards all you guys & gals (hear that Flossy?) for your feedback. The consensus votes a big NO on a rr arena idea. Fine.
The consensus also states...at least I'm hearing it this way...that the TA could use some improvement in terms of being what it purports to be. So WHAT IF we set up...a player based Aces High Training Academy on a purely voluntary basis?
Hey, HTC cut the subscription cost in half a few months ago...here's a chance to kick something back. Poll the squads/ players and see who will commit to an hour or so in the T.A. once @ week.
At the very least, make the TA a place for people to get answers.
DmdMax
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Fa2 and 3 TEEEHEEE thats a joke right there!
Rude Joke of the week, FA2 teehee
kit
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Man, I hate to jump into this little discussion, but I am............
I am TOTALLY against a RR arena, for the simple reason of what it did to me.
I started WB back in 1999, one of the first things I did was check out the ACA. Easy mode, all that CRAP.
Thought I was getting pretty good, so I headed into the main arenas. To sum it up, I got my bellybutton handed to me, on a regular basis. Mainly as a result of the fact that I had flown easy mode, or relaxed realism, call it whatever you want. I went to the training arena, first thing they asked me was how much I had been flying. So, I, in an irate tone, told them I had been flying in the ACA. You could almost hear the "Aww crap, not another one..." thru the 'Net.
RR only increases the difficulty in learning how to fly in the full realism mode, IMO. I had to start flying a duelling ladder before I really learned how to do anything right.
What I am afraid I am seeing is people who came from AW and flew in that RR setting, and they automatically want HTC to create an arena especially for them. That bothers me a lot. I would hate to see HiTech and company EVER compromise the FM in AH. You want one of the most realistic, if not THE most realistic combat sims ever? You are there right now. AH is not perfect, far from it. But it is a work in progress, and what they have done so far is create probably the most realistic combat sim you will find outside a full blown military simulator.
I agree with the idea about the AH Training Arena. It has degraded to nothing more than a FFA, and if it is to be used for the stated "training" purposes, HTC is gonna have to get dedicated trainers and give them some authority. Like being able to boot someone out of the arena if they won't follow the rules. Simple as that. Or being able to ground them so that they can't up in anything, not even a field gun.
Said trainers would be shouldering a lot of responsibility, and would catch a lot of flak for doing their jobs. But, eventually, the arena would become what it should be, a place for newbies and veterans alike to go and hone their skills before entering the MA or CT.
(gets down from soapbox)
....and that's all I got to say about that..... ;)
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There is no need for a "relaxed realism" arena in AH. Enough said.
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Originally posted by DMax:
I know, it's been debated forever but given the horde of AW rr peeps and newbies comin outta the woodwork, perhaps a rr arena would provide a bit more serious flying in the MA.
The constant litany of how do I start my engine? who needs a gunner? combined with the whining, screaming and gang banging are enuff to wanna make ya start yer hair on fire and put it out with a hammer.
I vote for rr. Heck, I'll even volunteer a couple hours a week to "staff/train" Anyone else feel the same?
DmdMax
The Damned MkX :confused:
How much did Olmon pay you to post this?
As some of the ex-AW'ers that have posted on this thread know, I was one of the more die-hard RR pilots in AW. Only way you could get me into the FR arena was if it was sheep night. Not that AW FR was hard, it just didn't seem realistic to me, so I stayed in RR for 8 years.
Now that I'm in AH and got a taste of what a really good FR flight model is like (my 2 years in WB don't count, WB FM was as fugged up as AW's), there is no way in hell you are going to drag me or any other member of my squadron back into any type of RR arena. I think I've finally turned into one of those FR elitists.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Ack-Ack ]
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NO!
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Yeah I agree, MA is already easymode enough! Dumbing it down would bring AH to arcade and nobody wants that.
As long as an average child can start the game, get airborne and stay there without a weeks training, it is easy enough.
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.squelch newby ;)
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No way!
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Originally posted by DMax:
I offer thanks towards all you guys & gals (hear that Flossy?)
LOL! yeah, DMax.... though really I don't have a problem with 'guys' - I learnt long ago that it was more of a generic term! :) It's 'gents' or 'gentlemen' I have a problem with! :D
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Flossy ]
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"I think I've finally turned into one of those FR elitists."
You're well on your way! However the line in the sand has been redrawn, seeing how AH has but one FM and one comunity.
You need to take a test to requalify.
1) What's your stance on the AWACs radar
2) digital ranging icons
3) combat trim
4) and auto-retract flaps??
Hmmmmm? ;)
Westy
W
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"I started WB back in 1999, one of the first things I did was check out the ACA. Easy mode, all that CRAP."
LOL when I got my first WB account I tried both ACA and main. Untill that I had flown offline extensively with the hardest settings and I just couldn't imagine ACA would be easymode. I flew sorties after sorties and wondered why the planes felt all wrong lol. Then someone told me ACA was easymode.
Nevertheless ACA during those days was like main, only with RR and we did have a blast there with the limited planeset, RR and field captures. After trying AH my mind was set; I'd never go back to WB as a regular.
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"Sheeit, I shot down 5 allies in a 190A5 over/around their own base and proceeded home to land when I dropped in to check it out.
Ain't exactly difficult...
-SW"
yep... HA type arenas are usually places to get easy kills. The guys in em, despite their claims of being elite, are usually very inexperianced in actually fighting. They are very good at "maintaining e" .... sometimes for hours on end.. running the moment there is even the slightest chance they may be equal or less e than the other guy. Congrats on fooling em into thinking they had the advantage.
As for RR... I hate it but I would think that it would be a money maker for HTC.
lazs
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"I would think that it would be a money maker for HTC."
It very well could. Probably would actually.
But call it something other than Aces High, charge the same $$$ per month for a subscription and give "Dweebfire High" it's own homepage and webboards.
Westy
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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There is no true right or wrong WRT to FR or RR; the real question is what is best for the sim as a whole. Does the community need to be divided up beyond an MA and a CT? I don't happen to think so. However, if this could be done in a way that brings more people in and doesn't upset the balance of the arenas too much, sure, why not? I would say however my selfish side certainly doesn't want to include an aspect of play that will adversely affect my enjoyment...
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
"I think I've finally turned into one of those FR elitists."
You're well on your way! However the line in the sand has been redrawn, seeing how AH has but one FM and one comunity.
You need to take a test to requalify.
1) What's your stance on the AWACs radar
2) digital ranging icons
3) combat trim
4) and auto-retract flaps??
Hmmmmm? ;)
Westy
W
1.I really don't like the 'dar setup
in here.
2. Got used to flying with out range markers from flying full screen in AW
3. Don't use Combat trim, prefer to use manual trims.
4. Auto-retract flaps suck, especially in the P-38.
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A BIG NO to RR.
And enough about airwarrior.. let it die already.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: jpeg ]
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Maybe HTC should just buy the AW code, set up a server hosting that tired old game and then the rest of us can get back down to cases. :D
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No to RR.
yes to more organized and easy-to-find training.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Maybe HTC should just buy the AW code, set up a server hosting that tired old game and then the rest of us can get back down to cases. :D
I believe ya have something there, Hangtime!! :)
HT worked for AW and prolly knows the archaic code that was...AW. It would clear up space in the MA and the "Dweebfire Arena" Westy eluded to would set "them" FREE!
I flew AW for nearly 5 years-mostly RR, and I have been dweebin' it here since August 1999. (as you know) I left AW and never looked back. Dale and the great staff at HTC have enough on their plate with AH. Maybe they could Hire Mage, and put him in a little Room with a Server, Keyboard and Mouse, and let him Pilot AW! :D He has the knowledge.
All that said, AH has been getting better and better every day for me. (since Beta days) I get kills, I get killed, and it's all part of the experience. I just filmed a train for the first time......nearly wet myself.
This is NOT Air Warrior, and it should NEVER...EVER..resemble that POS!
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
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Absolutely not!!!!
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I keep myself as a newbie. Ive been in AH only a few months now and I dont have any experiences of other combat sims. At the beginning I had some difficulties but thats the challenge what Im looking for. Im getting better every week now and now this is not so difficult anymore. You are talking about some sims what are easier or have different modes which are easy. Im surprised.. is there really something easier somewhere?
I hope even more realism in AH. I want it as realistic as possible. ( no real deaths ) :D
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Mikko prkl nyt nukkumaan ;)
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:eek:
Kukas prkl siellä vielä valvoo!!!!!!!!!!!
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NO!..Don't need it now that CT has scoring and field captures. Perhaps it will have some more "Hardcore" tweaks in the future making it an interesting alternative to MA mayhem.
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HT never worked for AW.
HiTech
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"is there really something easier somewhere?"
Besides FighterAce or WB's with "easy mode"? Not anymore, no :)
Westy
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Originally posted by hitech:
HT never worked for AW.
HiTech
Which is why you still have a job and can afford expensive single malts :)
DmdMax
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Originally posted by K West
Dmax, it'll pass. Folks figure out what to do and those who have too hard a time figuring the key strokes would even if there were an RR mode. Where as an abominable split in the community such as AW had with seperate RR and FR never goes away.
Westy
I sympathize with Dmax's frustration. My pet hate is those stupid questions that clog up the text buffer. I'm the one telling them to RTFM, but then I remember they can't read anyway.
Hopefully the 'market' will sort this out. RR was always the profitable part of AW3; the FR arena probably didn't pay for itself. (If any ex AW staff know different, please say.)
There are far more kids wanting to play arcade type combat flight sims than there are serious simmers, so hopefully a new game will appear shortly to draw them off. In the meantime AH benefits from their subscriptions.