Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on December 29, 2002, 09:26:12 AM
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You've had a rough break. You've had an accident that have left you without your left foot and ruined a possible career in sports.
You work extremely hard and manage to find success in another field. You study, train and generally dedicate yourself to your goal.
Only to hear:
"The Lord gave him abilities in other fields. Thank Jesus for that".
I mean, it'd been YOU who overcame hardship. Getting the strenght to do so isn't exclusive to religious people - there are numerous examples of non theists doing the same. So you've had hardship and endured, and now the credit goes to your Lord?
I know, I know. Pride cometh before fall. I just don't think it's pride to want to not have credit given to someone who didn't actually do the hard work.
I see such statements often when Christians comment on someone who's made a comeback of sorts - always thanks to the Lord. I'd say the individual did it. Assuming there is a God and he created that individual, that individual does till have *free will*, which he or she used to change his/her life. God might say 'jolly good ol' sport, that's the spirit laddie' but to actually attribute his/her work to God, isn't that sort of...of...wrong?
Guess it's about meekness and 'you're just a poor sinner'. We have the Jante law here that says 'don't think you're anything. Don't think you're better than others...' etc. I'm fed up with it.
This is one aspect of Christianity I've never quite understood.
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"We have the Jante law here that says 'don't think you're anything. Don't think you're better than others...' etc. I'm fed up with it."
That's one aspect of Denmark I really hated. It works both ways though..either you're not supposed to think you are anything or the moment you have a tiny amount of success, you move to Hellerup and start speaking with a posh accent.
Yuck.
Daff
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StSanta
I understand entirely your difficulty in this. I too have noticed how, in the field of Christianity, that when things are going badly it’s all the fault of Man, and the result of our collective “sins”. Then, when something good happens, it’s “All Glory to God”.
As the product of a Christian family, for years I had to wrestle with the conundrum of ”If there was a God, how could he allow this war/poverty/famine/disease (delete as appropriate) to happen?” It did not make sense. Then I took a step back and contemplated that if we assume for one moment that there is no God, then everything that happens around us makes perfect sense.
I made my own decisions more than 30 years ago, and I have to tell you it was like getting a huge rock off my chest, and throwing it out of the window. (There was no string attached to the rock, and no sign reading rock tied to left bollock.)
And I have never looked back. :) Santa, try to accept the beliefs of those around you, even if they do not concur with your own. Free yourself from having to worry about why things are the way they are, as depicted in your original post. Not everyone has the mindset to cope with or benefit from religion. I don’t, and you don’t. Accept it, free yourself, and move on.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Then I took a step back and contemplated that if we assume for one moment that there is no God, then everything that happens around us makes perfect sense.
Though it also makes sense if god is either a sadist, incompetent, or maybe both.
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first off.... I am not a christian. next.... I have the oppossite opinion that you do santa.... I have overcome several hardships that would make losing a foot seem fairly tame... I am highly amused when people tell me how "proud" they are of me for overcoming these things.... I do not in the slightest believe that I could have done so on my own.
I don't believe that anyone who has overcome major problems remains egotistical enough to rule out the spiritual.... least not in my experiance. I think you will find that most agree with me and that they found some sort of soiritual help. I am not the least offended when someone recognizes that I needed gods help... I am more embarassed when I am given more credit than I am due.
lazs
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you dont like Christianity now? come live in the bible belt, see what its like when they have power. place is the scariest i have ever lived in. From what i can see there is no way to be a really balanced person if you follow their dogma. no intrest in it myself.
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:rolleyes:
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beet1e wrote:
As the product of a Christian family, for years I had to wrestle with the conundrum of ”If there was a God, how could he allow this war/poverty/famine/disease (delete as appropriate) to happen?” It did not make sense. Then I took a step back and contemplated that if we assume for one moment that there is no God, then everything that happens around us makes perfect sense.
Well first thing I'd like to say is everyone belives what we need to, to survive or do what we do everyday. I try my hardest to not pass judgement, because its not mine to give.
I'm a believer that everything happens for a reason.
First off the definition of "God" , which I accept, is a higher being than anything that we can comprehend. If we can define a God then it surpasses that because being human we are unable to comprehend him, due to the fact we are fallible.
To assume that God needs to come down and "Fix" whats going on in the world today, with the disease etc. would mean that God was wrong in the first place to allow this to happen. If God is wrong, that would give him a "human" characteristicts, which would then mean he doesn't exist, because for me God can't be wrong or contradict himself, due to the idea he is above human limitations. There is a reason for why this happens even though Me or You may not understand or may not like whats going on, its happening and we have to deal with it. We are only given tasks we can handle.
So this is the reason those, I feel who go through harsh times thank god, because they know that the task was given to them for a reason, and after the task is complete they now hold them selves at such a higher standard than they previously did. Thus since they were rewarded with such a difficult task they thus thank God for the new enlightenment they have just experienced.
-BlckMgk
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St.Santa-
You are supposed to praise God in good times and bad times alike. You know God is the giver of all. You know God gives you no burden you cannot overcome with faith. You were raised in the church, you know this.
I tell you what I will never understand... it's people who are supposedly offended by people wanting to discuss religion starting conversation after conversation about religion, then blaming it on the religious.
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What has atheism contributed to the human race, other than communism?
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Atheism lead to communism? Perhaps you could explain that, probably will produce a few good laughs for us all...
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Atheism was what Russian Communists believed in. They believed that religion was just something to make oppressed peasants believe they had something better to look foward to after their hard life.
I am a Socialist but have been a follower of the Roman Catholic church for all my life and will never give up my faith.
I remember when I was a kid and my aunt had a daughter that died at the age of 2. I asked my mom "why would god take the life of someone so early?" my mother replied "I can't really answer that question except that it was god's will. There are things we may never know until we are dead, she is in a better place now."
The reason there's a lot of speculation these days is because of how much of an impact modern science has on the world. Don't take me wrong, I think science is great and helps us with a lot. The thing is people begin to look at things in black and white with science. When everything seems explainable such as cell division, what atoms are made up of... It becomes easier to reject religion because there is no concrete evidence of god's existance.
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well said Santa
why is it so difficult for people to accept that THEY have the control over their lives? something bad happens: 'god has his plan for me/ this must be a test.. then something good happens: god is blessing me. what roadkill. WE are the highest power in OUR lives. weak minds need the opiate of a 'god' to explain the good and the bad.
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saw my great uncle and aunt over the holidays. they praise god day and night.....
they've both been fighting sickness since the mid 70's. every day is spent in pain and last year they got the opportunity to burry their 50 year old daughter who died of a freak heart attack. she was about the last good thing they had to be happy about.
their god sucks.
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Very well said Hawk. I totally agree with the fact we have should have control over our own lives. Because ultimately we have the choice wether or not to do something, we all have freedom of choice.
What is the difficulty in living to a "believed" higher standard. There is a simple way to live ones life, those basic ideas which state what a "good" person should do. The fact is not many folks, including myself, have been able to live that simple life. It is easy to do wrong, because it seems the only way to survive is by doing so. To just say "I'm right, you're wrong" Is by far the easiest thing to do, why? because it takes no effort in just believing what you wish. Giving yourself a standard and trying to live by it, gives you something to base your actions from, thus you know, atleast you hope you do, that your actions are correct. The idea behind this is.... everyone is right in what they do ..... or you could reverse that and say everyone is wrong.... this includes me and you. But to fear your actions and to not act in what you believe is wrong.
-BlckMgk
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MrFish hopefully their pain, allows you to see how life is without disease, and that you make the most of your health.
Then again its easy for me to say, not being there, and its easy for me to preach etc. I just give thanks I am well, I have a roof over my head, a computer at my finger tips and food in my belly. To be bitter with my current state would make me feel guilty. I am thankful for what I have and will work hard to continue to provide for those around me. To allow for my children to have a better life.
-BlckMgk
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Peace for one thing.
Atheism does not equal communism. You can be communist and christian for example.
But getting back to atheism... one of the largest religions in the world is atheist. It is also the most peaceful and forgiving religion. Its name has not been used to incite war, hatred, or massacres. In fact you cannot find violence associated with this religion bar one isolated group where the underlying violence is actually race related. Its worshippers also follow many sciences.
What has Christianity SPECIFICALLY contributed to the human race?
Originally posted by ra
What has atheism contributed to the human race, other than communism?
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That's silly, Vulcan. Atheists don't share an identity in the way religions or ethnic groups do, therefore you won't find cases of atrocities committed in the cause of furthering atheism.
I suppose if I really wanted to throw lighter fluid on the fire I could suggest abortion was legalized by the actions of atheists, and it murders thousands every single year, yet that is not fair to atheists, now is it?
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Gentlemen, before this gets to one of those heated threads which has skuzzy coming along with his box of padlocks, can I suggest that we each live with our own beliefs and allow others to do the same - ie not challenge anyone in an attempt to assert that your belief is better than theirs. Speaking from first hand experience, I can say that this has kept the peace in my family for 30-40 years.
Mrfish - their god sucks.
Yeah, I know. Just let 'em get on with it. Just keep your silence at the appropriate moments. It takes practice, but it can be done. ;)
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Kieran, assuming you're right, that God only gives us challenges we can overcome, why should he get credit when we do overcome them?
I'm pretty sure your assumption isn't correct. There are loads of people who've been in situations way beyond anything they can cope with and died as a result. Of course you might answer that 'then that is the will of God'. It still means that they were in a situation they weren't capable of handling.
Lazs, I'm a non theist. I've experienced harships, dug in, and lived through. No spiritual assistance whatsoever, just a grim determination to try to change what I deemed was unacceptable. *I* did it.
Beet1e, I accept others have different beliefs than me. In fact, I try to *understand it, hence this post.
That comment about those hating religions starting lots of threads - see above. It was started to gain understanding, not spread hate. I am annoyed by evangelizing. I'm annoyed by ignorance and non critical thhinking and ideas that have been handed down from parent to child without being analyzed and just accepted as a fact - whether it is religious or not, it annoys me. I don't hate Christians, but it's no secret that my feelings towards organized religion is somewhat coloured by the fact that I know a tool of control when I see it. On the other hand, I don't have anything against individuals with faith. They're just an enigma to me.
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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
No. :)
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Vulcan: It is also the most peaceful and forgiving religion. Its name has not been used to incite war, hatred, or massacres.
Soviet Union, Red China?
What has Christianity SPECIFICALLY contributed to the human race?
One of the most brilliant atheists and foremost proponent of freedom - F. Hayeck would disagree with you. All human race owes to christianity is western civilisaton, concepts of equality, personal liberty, property, free market, etc. Not by design or intent, to be sure - but a cause nevertheless.
It's not like Christianity was even created by a designer - we are talking about social evolution/selection and us a product of such evolution - we are here because the system promoted our spread and increase in wealth rather than some other population.
Just because you cannot thion of something does not mean it's not there. Read "The Fatal Conceit" some day.
miko, atheist.
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"Atheism does not equal communism."
No it doesn't, but that's not the point. Atheism became a widespread philosophy during the 1800's. Freed from the constraints of religion, atheist intellectuals decided to improve humanity. Believing humanity to be infinitly malleable, they came up with all kinds of wacko utopian ideas. The one which left the most lasting scar on the human race was communism.
"Peace for one thing."
The greatest slaughters of the 20th century were carried out by followers of atheist ideologies.
I still don't see where atheism has contributed significantly to the betterment of humanity. It promises new realms of intellectual exploration, but all it delivers is social 'science' and moral relativism.
ra
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Religion causing wars and let hate grow.
I believe in nothing then myself and that should be the way to go.
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santa... I used to think that "I" did it all... there was nothing that the great "I" could not conquer.... "I" was a tough guy and smarter than the spiritual pissants. I am relieved that I finally got over that crap. No big deal really... You still need to do the work. Sometimes we all just need a little help. Mr fish... What would you do in their situation? Is your solution any better? Is it weaker or stronger to give up? Would you feel better with a god to blame or worse?
lazs
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I'm pretty sure your assumption isn't correct. There are loads of people who've been in situations way beyond anything they can cope with and died as a result. Of course you might answer that 'then that is the will of God'. It still means that they were in a situation they weren't capable of handling.
My point is you knew the answer a Christian would have to give because you were raised in the church... hence, I assume you already knew this information.
If God puts you in a situation where you struggle, you do have the responsibility to try to overcome, but you are also supposed to have faith in God regardless. The outcome of faith isn't that you'll always be healed, or that there will always be a happy ending (on earth). Don't ever forget a Christian is supposed to set his/her eyes on a higher prize, and forsake the world and its tempations for faith. Sometimes, however, your personal suffering has a ripple effect, and your actions through that crisis can be a catalyst for growth in faith for those around you.
My father was alcoholic, my step-father alcoholic and abusive. Life growing up was... interesting. In the fullness of time I grew up and later met my birth father again- some 22 years after he had abandoned my family. We struggled when he left (he left four kids and two of my aunts and uncles my orphaned mother was trying to raise), and there often wasn't much food to be had. I watched my mother refuse any welfare, and refused to allow her brothers and sisters be taken from her and placed in foster homes. She made it, one day at a time.
Anyway... when I met "dad" again, I had every right to hate him. What I'd personally gone through as a result of his abandonment could have made me very bitter and yet... it didn't. I knew it had all happened for a reason. By watching my mother, I learned how to persevere and not look for the easy way out. I learned about sacrifice for your family- real sacrifice. Unfortunately I also learned about abusive step-parents, but even that has application in my life today. I deal with kids all the time that have abusive situations, and I can very much relate to what they are going through.
And there's more. Birth dad and I met several times in the following years, and he went to his grave expressing regret for what he had done. He didn't blame my mother once for anything, though it would have been easy to do so. Dad had found another wife later in his life and came to know God. He quit drinking, turned his life around, and began reaching out to others in need in his community. What I learned from him was you cannot turn away from your responsibilities, regardless of the immediate cost- the long-term cost is much higher.
Step-dad, as it turned out, had a medical reason for his temper- extremely high blood pressure. Once he began to take medicine to control the blood pressure, he became quite normal. He remained an atheist to the end, but he was human and normal and a loving father and husband, and I mourned his passing. What did I learn from him? He was the most consistant man I ever met, and true to himself. He didn't make apologies for what he was. Believe it or not, I learned how to discipline (and how not to) from him.
So... how do I feel about my whole childhood? Thankful to God. I am what I am today because of the experience, and though not all of it was pleasant (or unpleasant), it was all necessary. I can see looking back how intricately it has all been woven together, I see the plan. I can thank God for the good and the bad in it. Nothing was by chance.
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First of all, I do consider myself a follower of Jesus and as such, I realize that I am very narrow minded. As a Christian, I believe that there is only one way to heaven.
John 14
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
I also believe that God is sovereign and God is a triune God. He causes / allows events to happen that we as mere humans cannot comprehend. As a sovereign God, He can choose to do what He wills. So if trials or tribulations beset us, we are to rejoice in the fact that we are being tested. If we loose our life, we count it gain because we are with God. If we are maimed or changed physically, we count it gain to be persecuted with Christ. As for overcoming trials and tribulation, I believe that God enables us. God is our strength as it says in
Psalms 46
1 God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble
So short answer to the original post is NO.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Mr fish... What would you do in their situation? Is your solution any better? Is it weaker or stronger to give up? Would you feel better with a god to blame or worse?
lazs
i don't offer any solutions or suggest giving up, nor do i blame anything but nature for their conditions.
everytime i go back to the great dismal prairie land in the middle of our country i see all these people with miserable lives sitting around clutching their hands and gazing skyward waiting for a break..... my anger comes from two sources-
1st, i hear people say stuff like "gee ms turner, i guess god let little jimmy get his legs burned off to show us all how wonderful having legs is! praise god! i know he has a good reason somewhere!" golly, that god guy is quite a teacher......i'm pretty sick of being embarrassed at the fact that my 'people' worship a god who is a poor mentor, an awful teacher and a very bad planner. it never even occurs to them because they are so wrapped up in the lifestyle they refuse to be analytical about what they actually believe...
2nd, if there is a god, he is pretty crappy to the people who sacrifice the most to him and keep his name on their toungues at all moments regardless of what comes in life. why does he reward them with pain?-on this point, i guess i shouldn't be surprised though, considering that god ignores gentiles for about 3/4 of the bible or paints them as inferior to his precious chosen ones.....
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite (Gentile) woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”
“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Matthew 15:21-28
wow! it sure was nice of jesus to take pity on us dogs in the end! maybe if we all beg on our knees like that gentile hag we can sweep up in heaven when we die! god might even let us use the same water fountains....
how all those good, simple, hearty people across the heartland got sucked into this vengeful petty desert god's religion continues to astound me. I think they deserve better is all and it remains a sore spot for me.
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About 'atheism contributions'
This is a completely ridiculous way of putting it.
Atheism is absence of theism. It is NOTHING ELSE. It's not some doctrine. There ain't rules. There ain't a political agenda.
Atheists are very diverse with only ONE thing really connecting them - lack of belief in a deity or deities.
So please, these 'commies were atheists' is just as stupid as saying 'men without hair are commies'.
'Atheist' spans a very wide range of people, including *religious* people who just don't happen to believe in a God or gods. So it's utterly stupid to suggest that a lack of something as faith in a deity has a political agenda. Usually, there are people with agendas that happen to be atheists. it's not atheism itself that drives them. Stalin saw the church as a threat to his authority - he cracked down on 'em not because of atheism, but because he wanted absolute unquestionable control.
Around 2% of atheists are strong atheists - that is, they believe (have faith in) that God does NOT exist. The rest simply lack a belief in a god - or not in one. It's simply irrelevant.
It should also be said that ALL the values 'Christianity' purposedly brought to western civilizations have been in place in various cultures before Christianity itself. 'Be kind to others' isn't new, nor is 'don't kill people for fun'. It's been an influnce, but both for good and bad, and it's worth remembering that.
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Around 2% of atheists are strong atheists - that is, they believe (have faith in) that God does NOT exist.
Then the other 98% of atheists are not atheists.
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St.Santa - quite correct. It would be a bit like saying that bald is a hair colour.
Maybe it is God's will that I am an atheist.
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Amen Kieran and dfl8rms. Only thing I'd add is that some seem to confuse religion with faith or belief. They are two different things. I was raised a Baptist, I occasionally attend a AOG Church but I don't consider myself "religious". I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father. I believe that if you don't accept Jesus as YOUR Savior you will burn in hell for eternity. That would truly be a shame, a horror no one on earth can imagine. When you look up and see me standing in the loving arms of Jesus, shaking my head, you'll realize you made the wrong choice. Don't wait too late. You have heard the gospel and will make a choice before your time expires on this earth to accept or reject Him. The choice is yours, given to you by God. I pray for all the lost souls posting in this forum. Read the original KJV and then decide. God bless.
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Just a quick FYI I read in the newspaper the other day:
A poll was taken, asking if religion played a very important role in the person's everyday life. The number of respondants who answered "yes" were as follows:
USA - 59%
Europe - around 30-35%
Central and South America - 80-85%
Indonesia, malaysia - 90-95%
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ra, yes they are.
It's a common misconception. There are two forms of atheism (popularly speaking).
Strong atheists say that there definitely isn't a God. They do not have proof of this (it's quite hard to get this evidene, try proving that there aren't green midgets dancing inside a giant copy of Playboy on the left invisible sun in the Pleiades), but they take it on as a matter of faith, or try to disprove all notions of God/gods humans have invented so far. This is a small, but vocal, minority.
Weak atheists lack a belief either way. Saying lack of belief is a religion is, as beet1e says, like saying bald is a hair colour. Saying lack of belief in deities or deity isn't atheism is akin to saying total absence of hair isn't equal to a bald head.
Me, I'm the latter kind. I don't even know what a God thing is. No one has ever been able to explain what it is, its characteristics and traits, different states and so forth. Talking about something that is not definable is quite silly. Lots of good will come from a discussion about Sqweeerwookles. Whatever that is. Which I won't define. But I'll affirm that it is.
If you want I can provide some links that more indepth describe the various forms of non theism. Will have to go ghrough my rather extensive bookmarks though.
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Weak atheists lack a belief either way.
You are making this up. An atheist believes there is no God. An agnostic better fits your description.
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Originally posted by BNM
I believe that if you don't accept Jesus as YOUR Savior you will burn in hell for eternity.
and you probably feel the punishment fits the crime too....or are you too scared of the flame to wonder?
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Ahh the bliss of Christian ignorance.
First of all, I was referring to Buddhism.
Ra this is perhaps the most ignorant statement: "No it doesn't, but that's not the point. Atheism became a widespread philosophy during the 1800's. Freed from the constraints of religion, atheist intellectuals decided to improve humanity. Believing humanity to be infinitly malleable, they came up with all kinds of wacko utopian ideas. The one which left the most lasting scar on the human race was communism."
No one ever taught me how to be an atheist. I am of my own free will, choice, and thought. Atheism has been around for a long long time, its just in the past if you were an atheist and the local christian mob found out... well you get the idea.
And once again, Communism does not equal atheism. If you believe this then you are thinking right inside the cliche square.
As I said, one of the largest religions in the world is Atheist. It is also the most open, peaceful, and forgiving religion...
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Vulcan, I never said being atheist meant being communist, read more carefully. And I never asked how you became athiest.
ra
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It seems to me that faith is not a choice at all. You either believe or you do not. IMHO, all but the strongest of the faithful avoid anything that my cause them to question their faith or doubt the existence of god. They guard their belief very carefully.
It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.
I grew up Baptist. I know the story. I know the rituals. I understand the symbolism.
Get this straight... Witnessing isn't about going door to door peddling your beliefs like they were tupperware or walking up and down the boulevard with the latest copy of the Watchtower clutched to your chest. It means being an enviable example of your faith. It means being a good person. It means being a happy person. It means being a helpful person. People should look at you and wonder what is missing from their own lives. That is what a witness is.
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It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.
Hence my original comment in the thread. Most of these threads here are started by professed nonbelievers that don't want anyone talking to them about religion. I ask, why is that?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It seems to me that faith is not a choice at all. You either believe or you do not. IMHO, all but the strongest of the faithful avoid anything that my cause them to question their faith or doubt the existence of god. They guard their belief very carefully.
It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.
Exactly Sandman, which is why we are discussing this on a bulletin board instead of over a joint, or beers, or shots, or whatever. If you and I met personally we wouldn't talk about issues like this, we'd talk about stuff that makes us laugh. Really, I know more about the political beliefs, or religious beliefs, or moral beliefs of some of the posters here than I know about some of my friends.
"The strongest of the faithful" are the ones that praise God and witness before you- by all means, as is prophesized they will be ridiculed and mocked and made light of by non believers. I read about St. Santa talking about his "annoyance" with religion peddlers, but really, I get more solicitations from mortgage brokers than religious advocates. LOL I think it's funny now that St. Santa is trying to classify the amount of anti-religious fervor the way extremist Moslems classify religious fervor.
Hey, Agnostics- STRONG Athiests- MODERATE Athiests- however you non believers wish to classify yourselves as on the religious spectrum- If you don't believe then why do you keep starting these threads?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It means being a good person. It means being a happy person. It means being a helpful person. People should look at you and wonder what is missing from their own lives. That is what a witness is.
Very well said Sandman
That's how I feel, but you said it much, much better than I could.
I'm Catholic...altar boy (dodged that whole priest thing..whew), Catholic school (complete with Nuns, who all wore the old black and white habit, and the proverbial rulers).
I still attend Mass on Sundays and raise my children in the church.
But I don't push it.....just saying it here to put context around my thoughts on Sandman's words I quoted.
In fact, in the school district I live in, I send my kids to public school because the system is really good. And I want to support it. I support the Church by being a parishoner. As with all things in life, I don't agree 100% with establishment that is the Church, but I also belong for my own reasons......which is what it's about.........personal reasons.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Kieran
Hence my original comment in the thread. Most of these threads here are started by professed nonbelievers that don't want anyone talking to them about religion. I ask, why is that?
An unrelenting desire to argue I guess...
I could be wrong. I don't start threads like these anymore. :)
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Ra. believe me I am NOT. I'm an operator on undernet #atheism and #philosophy.
Try this page for an intro into atheism:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I'll quote:
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.
Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism".
Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of 'god': Whether they are 'atheists' or not is a matter of debate. Since you're unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it's not a very important debate...
It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree."
end quote.
Agnosticism isn't really related to atheism or theism - or rather, an agnostic can be a theist, or he can be a non theist. Agnosticism is a statement: I do not believe we can know whether God(s) exist or not. As such, agnostics can be both religious and non religious. You, like most, have a wrong definition of the word.
Agnostic \Ag*nos"tic\, n.
One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any
knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism,
neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc.
Of course widespread misuse of the word the the late 20th century has meant to to most it is synonymous with 'doubter'.
Here's another quote, from the same intro:
"The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for sure whether God exists.
Since that time, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those that do not believe that the question is intrinsically unknowable, but instead believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.
To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on the original definition be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the second definition be qualified as "empirical agnosticism".
Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism".
Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe."
end quote.
Hope this helps. And Ra, chill out. No need to be so aggressive. :)
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Oh I started this thread to getr some answers. Then someone (Kieran methinks) made a comment that I found to be erroneous (non theist startiong threads they hate). I went on to explain the purpose of the thread. Then a bunch of others hijacked it. Don't blame me. Once hijacked, I go wherever the hijacker point the plane til I can find a big piece of metal to bash his skull in with.
When erroneous remarks are made, like the ones on weak/strong atheism and agonsticism or the original one, I feel compelled to answer them. Otherwise people might think I'm in agreement with them (the erroneous remarks).
Now, could I get an answer to my original question, as well as the followup? Am trying to understand here. There was no anti-religious intent with my post. Heh, me not liking organized religions but liking followers is sort of like you Christians not liking sin, but being able to like the sinner. So it shouldn't be contrued as an inflaming remark, and if it was perceived as such, I apologize.
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<<<"Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree." >>>
weak = disbelief in the existence of God
strong = believing that God does not exist
Now it is all clear.
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BTW..which "God" are we talking about?
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Originally posted by Kieran
I tell you what I will never understand... it's people who are supposedly offended by people wanting to discuss religion starting conversation after conversation about religion, then blaming it on the religious.
I bet you do know the answer, they simply want to be persuaded that there is a god.
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I've answered it already as far as I can tell. Praise the Lord in all things, good and bad. A few others have said as much. What other answer can we possibly give you?
No, it honestly does not bother me in the least, because I believe I am incapable of handling this world on my own. I know my successes are His, and my trials are exactly that. I am not resentful of God for that in any way- in fact, I can be thankful for the trials in my life, because I can see how they improved me.
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Ultimately it comes down to respecting others in allowing them to believe what they do (as long as they're not a threat to anyone).
My wife is Catholic. I am an Atheist. I don't try to convert her or anyone else to Atheism. She doesn't try to convert me to her faith either. We are both right in our beliefs.
I look at religion this way. It allows some people that are in hopeless and/or disastrous situations a glimmer of hope.
It is kind of silly to try to force others to convert to our own beliefs, no?
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It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.
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Dear Cristians,
I totally agree with this statement. Stop knocking on my door, handing me leaflets, asking me if I've been "saved", trying to tamper with my government, my schools, and my life. I'm just fine without religion.
Having served my 20 years defending the constitution I also believe you have a right to your religion, but lets be clear here, it's YOUR religion. Stop trying to convert me.
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You realize this thread, and many more like it, have been brought to you by the nonbelievers, right? This was kind of my point for my question...
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Thanks for your answer Kieran. Ill ignore all the other stuff and ask you to elaborate, if you can.
From a Christian point of view, God gave us free will. Some Christians believe that God never intervenes in our lives, I don't know if you're one of them.
Anyway, with this free will, we can achieve things. So perhaps it is prudent to thank God for being alive, but I don't think it's just pride talking when one wants to get credit for what one has done with ones God given free will?
What do you do when you've accomplished something? Do you think that it's not you, but God, you but with the spiritual help of God or simply you xercising your God given free will in a manner that has a positive result from you?
I'll apologize for getting sidetracked, but I hope I can convince you that my intent was not to bash Christians - rather I'm a bit dumbfounded by this lack of will to take credit for own achievements.
Thanks in advance.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Thanks for your answer Kieran. Ill ignore all the other stuff and ask you to elaborate, if you can.
From a Christian point of view, God gave us free will. Some Christians believe that God never intervenes in our lives, I don't know if you're one of them.
Anyway, with this free will, we can achieve things. So perhaps it is prudent to thank God for being alive, but I don't think it's just pride talking when one wants to get credit for what one has done with ones God given free will?
What do you do when you've accomplished something? Do you think that it's not you, but God, you but with the spiritual help of God or simply you xercising your God given free will in a manner that has a positive result from you?
I'll apologize for getting sidetracked, but I hope I can convince you that my intent was not to bash Christians - rather I'm a bit dumbfounded by this lack of will to take credit for own achievements.
Thanks in advance.
Although you asked Kieran I'll offer my opinion.
Basically it goes like this. God created time/space and everything in it. Life on this planet is short but not all there is. Actually, it's only a tiny part of our existence. To go through life with a positive attitude, thankful for all things is to recognize God's goodness and his presence in all things. This not only makes us happier in this life but prepares us to enjoy what comes after.
If you go through life disbelieving and/or resentful towards God then you may not enjoy spending time with him after.
Sounds simple but harder to put into practice.
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Baron SS :)
You and I have always been civil, so understand I don't really think you meant anything untoward in the initial question.
What should I do when I accomplish something? I should pause and reflect on how God made it possible. Unfortunately I am human and will often not do this.
In Esther, Mordecai warns "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:13)
This would suggest God gives us the tools we need and puts us where we need to be in the right time. Esther had reached the pinnacle of what a woman in her society could hope to attain- she was the wife of the king. She could have stayed there and gloated on her good fortune, and applauded herself for her initiative, good looks, personable nature, to get there. She could have ignored the plight of her people. Instead she recognized it was God that had placed her there, and she was put there not for her own glory but to help her people. And, by placing her own life in peril, she attained more glory than she could have ever hoped being merely the wife of a king.
The point is, God gives us what we need, and does so with purpose. If we have gifts, we are to use them in his service. We are to also recognize He gave us the gifts, and not glory in ourselves. Focusing on ourselves leads us away from why we have the gifts to begin with. You undoubtedly are familiar with the parable of the talents?
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Good answers Kieran and AKIron. Appreciate it.
Sounds like hard work though. Using ones taletns for that God guy. Does that mean you get sort of a bad conscience when you do something with your talents not for yGod, but purely outta self interest?
Hope not. Sounds too Catholic too me (what's with all the guilt trips there, eh?)
oooh, while I am at it Kieran. I routinely get visits from Jehovas Witnesses. Needless to say, I open the door wide for them and then we have 'discussions'. My goal is to see whether their commitment to God is so great they can overcome this troublesome non believer. So far, they're sticking to it but they've gone from one person to two, three and last time 4 :D.
Anyway, they claimed Jesus wasn't crucified. Rather he was put on a pole. A metal spike was driven into his wrists with his hands forming an skewed x, with the center being at the wrists. They claim their translation of the bible comes directly from the Greek texts and that the word isn't cross but pole. Any comments?
They also have this notion that God doesn't interfere with humans as we go about our business - judgement for what we do will come later. SO there ain't no miracles, what they do is their own doing, no help from God etc. Comments?
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Maybe the reason many of you don't understand the christian faith, is that everything that means anything to you evolves around this world and your life in it.
Is it possible that there is more than what your eyes can see or what you can touch? God promised us all hardship and tribulation in our lives...there are no exceptions. The reward for fighting the good fight is eternal life with God. The bonus is a rich and full life here on this earth as well...one where Gods Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of believers so to help us through those tough and unfair times we all experience to one degree or another.
It is my sincere hope that those of you who have hardened your hearts towards God might come to see his love and mercy in your lives...I leave you with the following.....
"My son, if thou wilt recieve my words, and hide my commandments with thee; so that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver and searchest for her as hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God."
and....
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: Fear the Lord and depart from evil."
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It's obvious why God allows war, pestilence, famine, and teen-age loose women to exist. After all the football this week it's plain to see God has been too busy helping folks make touchdowns. You'll see the players thanking God in the middle of their ego-centric celebrations.
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The easy answer would be to say that if you are of the mind and heart to serve God, using your talents to serve God would be enjoyable and therefore self-serving in the earthly pleasure sense. It is inherently in your self-interest to use your talents to serve God.
I must say, I am not Catholic. Not a knock on Catholics, I really don't know enough to comment. Same for the Jehova's Witnesses. I respect both religions for what they have done, and their followers have shown as much faith as any religion.
Yes, I believe Jesus was crucified as I understand it (traditional cross). Common sense tells me that if this was not so it would have been corrected by various sources before now. There is ample historical evidence to clarify this point, at any rate.
Be careful how you interpret what they are saying... God doesn't have to intervene, because he has already set the plan in motion. Intervening would suggest He changed His mind- which He doesn't do. His end of it is complete. We don't have the blueprint, so we have to believe in Him to get us through it all. We have to search for His purpose for us, and try to understand what our talents are for.
As to judgement... there are levels of judgement. There is earthly, temporal judgement, such as when Israel was judged and found lacking. This resulted in the exile. There is also the final judgement, when each individual is given a final reckoning for their sins.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Be careful how you interpret what they are saying... God doesn't have to intervene, because he has already set the plan in motion. Intervening would suggest He changed His mind- which He doesn't do. His end of it is complete. We don't have the blueprint, so we have to believe in Him to get us through it all. We have to search for His purpose for us, and try to understand what our talents are for.
Ah, the old pre-destiny thing. So I guess it don't matter what I do, since it ain't gonna change a thing? Including, I assume, giving lip service to religion? Sure glad I don't waste a lot of time praying.
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Wrong. You don't know what is going to happen, therefore you are making your choices. Just because God knows what you are going to do doesn't mean He made you do it. God did give you the choice to do as you will, He just knows how it is all going to come out.
Yes, it does matter what you do, and praying sure doesn't hurt. :)
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that's one of the many inescapable contradictions of christianity arfann- ooops that's not offending anyone is it- gee i'll step lightly as possible here so no one feels persecuted
god wants you to have freewill so you will choose the right thing, but you can only take one path through time and god already knows what it will be, so freewill is an illusion.
in fact he already knows the whole outcome to the big picture battle between good and evil so we really are just slot cars going along a path known to at least god since the beginning of time and our freewill can't possibly exist.
so what's the point of god setting up all this drama in the first place.
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The point you always miss- He didn't set your path. He gave you the tools and the purpose, and left it to you make the choices. You aren't on a slot even if God knows what you are going to do. You can alter your path this instant one way or the other... jump out a window and see if things don't change for you. ;)
The problem with understanding God's ability to know the future is the coupled false assumption the reason He knows it is because he set all our paths in stone.
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Gotta love the religious paradigm. Pray (Chant, meditate, count beads, whatever) and if what you pray for happens it's a miracle. If it doesn't, well, it was just not meant to be, in God's plan, in your karma, etc., etc., etc., . . . . . . . . . . .
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Originally posted by Kieran
You can alter your path this instant one way or the other... jump out a window and see if things don't change for you
wow, and you mean god wouldn't know that i was about to suddenly take a different path? god wouldn't have seen that coming? i guess he's not omniscient afterall.
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lol Kieran. Sssswissshhhhh! Went right over thier heads.
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well you're enlightened apache, maybe you can explain it:
say i find a wallet on the street and no one is looking and it has $500 in it.
i presumably have the freewill to return it or keep the money- or to ignore it or a host of other choices. in the end i can only choose one of those options because of the restrictions of our universe. if god is omniscient then he already knows what that choice will be. it's pointless for him to give me some mechanism to establish myself as a righteous or sinful person because the outcome is already known-
it's not like i can choose to return it and impress god- he already knew whether i would choose to return it or not.
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Kieran, I understand what you are saying... but really, your life has already been decided before you were born.
Sure, he gave us "free will and tools to create our lives"... but before we were even concieved, our direction in life was set. We can "change" it... but in the end, we didn't, because we were already going to do it anyway.
-SW
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It would appear so, Apache.
I'll say it again... God will let you jump. God knew you were going to jump. God did not make you jump.
See it now?
As far as miracles are concerned... take the account of Moses. Now God knew what was going to happen. It was time to move Israel out of Egypt, and he knew what was going to happen. Still... each individual was given choice and acted on that choice. God certainly did intervene when he planned, but it doesn't mean he made the individuals do anything in particular.
Jesus did raise people from the dead, that qualifies as a miracle, correct? That He knew He would do this ahead of time doesn't make it less a miracle. Jesus could see the future as well, foretelling the fate of the Apostles and the world.
But if it was all predestined, why warn people of their choices at all? To you it is all a cruel joke; to me it means I have a choice, and the choices I make do matter.
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Originally posted by Kieran
I'll say it again... God will let you jump. God knew you were going to jump. God did not make you jump.
But you were already pre-disposed to jumping.
-SW
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Sure, he gave us "free will and tools to create our lives"... but before we were even concieved, our direction in life was set. We can "change" it... but in the end, we didn't, because we were already going to do it anyway.
SW
But what you are saying is God made you do it. That is a rather critical point to make, because it completely changes the character of God.
Let's put it another way; assuming the absence of God, given the same set of circumstances you would probably make the same choices, correct? Now, without God's presence you are perfectly willing to accept you controlled your path. Why is it if I stick an omniscient observer in the room it changes?
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Originally posted by Kieran
It was time to move Israel out of Egypt, and he knew what was going to happen. Still... each individual was given choice and acted on that choice.
why would he give someone a choice if he already knew what would happen?
isn't that kind of like playing with dolls?
god: "well polly prissy pants do you want some tea"
god doing polly voice: "well i don't know, yes i guess"
god: "good choice, here you go"
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It doesn't, I haven't said anything one way or the other about a God in this thread.
I was just saying... your life was determined before you set foot on this earth going by some religion's (maybe all of 'em, I dunno) set of beliefs.
Is this wrong? No... does it matter? No.... but to say you had a choice and free will to make that choice... how could that be possible if you were going to do it regardless?
-SW
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No, it isn't.
These dolls can truly interact with Him if it is their desire. They can refuse to "play" with Him, too. Either way, it is their choice.
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AKSW-
You'll have to forgive my assumption. This was a thread about God, thought that's what you meant.
Troubling thing about predestiny... it removes all personal responsibility for everything. Whether the outcome is known or not, the individual chooses the path. The individual is responsible for those choices.
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Originally posted by Kieran
No, it isn't.
These dolls can truly interact with Him if it is their desire. They can refuse to "play" with Him, too. Either way, it is their choice.
it is not their choice. if someone is going to wonder whether or not to believe in god then god already knows the outcome of their decision.
if someone is going to pray to god to be a part of their life, then god knew that before they were born and he knows the extent of his involvement and where they will spend eternity.
they can't be a bad person and suddenly choose good- god had to knw all along they would choose good. it only seems like a choice to you-
if someone already knows the outcome then it is not a choice. it is an illusion of choice. there's no way around that.
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Originally posted by mrfish
well you're enlightened apache, maybe you can explain it:
say i find a wallet on the street and no one is looking and it has $500 in it.
i presumably have the freewill to return it or keep the money- or to ignore it or a host of other choices. in the end i can only choose one of those options because of the restrictions of our universe. if god is omniscient then he already knows what that choice will be. it's pointless for him to give me some mechanism to establish myself as a righteous or sinful person because the outcome is already known-
it's not like i can choose to return it and impress god- he already knew whether i would choose to return it or not.
Certainly.
God wants us to follow and worship him. You've stated you read and studied the bible, so I don't think you would argue the point.
God gave us freewill to choose him or evil. Some choose evil. God knew they would. Why would God make some choose evil in contradiction of his own stated plan? He wouldn't and doesn't.
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they can't be a bad person and suddenly choose good- god had to knw all along they would choose good. it only seems like a choice to you-
if someone already knows the outcome then it is not a choice. it is an illusion of choice. there's no way around that.
If my young daughter kicks my older daughter for being a snot, does it mean she didn't have a choice? I mean, I already knew she would. It was easily predictable.
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Thanks for the explanation Kieran... I've always had a problem with pre-destination, just never made sense to me if we were given free will and the ability to make our own choices.
Of course, lotta things don't make sense to me.. I just wanted to see what a person with faith thought about it.
-SW
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Originally posted by Apache
Why would God make some choose evil in contradiction of his own stated plan? He wouldn't and doesn't.
so you mean he didn't want them to choose evil (also his creation btw) but they did anyway? you mean he didn't know they would choose evil long before he even created the first human?
if he knew, and he didn't want it that way- then why did he will it to be so?
before god set out on the very first day he had to know the following:
that original sin would occur
that he would have to send his son to die for the jews
that wars would be fought in his name
that you would post this
that i would think he was a fraud.....etc etc
so what's the point?
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Originally posted by Kieran
If my young daughter kicks my older daughter for being a snot, does it mean she didn't have a choice? I mean, I already knew she would. It was easily predictable.
you didn't know because you are not omniscient, god is. if you knew in advance that you daughter would kick her, and you know with no degree of uncertainty exactly what will happen, then in order for you to maintain your omniscience yes she would have to kick her, otherwise you'd be wrong and that can't happen- so no, she didn't have a choice.
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Originally posted by mrfish
so you mean he didn't want them to choose evil (also his creation btw) but they did anyway? you mean he didn't know they would choose evil long before he even created the first human?
if he knew, and he didn't want it that way- then why did he will it to be so?
before god set out on the very first day he had to know the following:
that original sin would occur
that he would have to send his son to die for the jews
that wars would be fought in his name
that you would post this
that i would think he was a fraud.....etc etc
so what's the point?
How do you interpret "they did it anyway" into "he didn't know"?
There must really be something to this bible thing. I'm seeing "can't understand" in action.
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imagine god floating in space before the world was created. at that point he knew all the trouble that would occur from satan's treachery through to the final list of names in the book of life.
he had to know full well that not everyone would fulfill his vision- he knew in advance that he was creating billions of souls destined for hell.
why would a perfect being create a world that would unfold like that?
you christians act like god gave us this perfect paradise and thought we'd be appreciative and then when we weren't he got all upset and decided to mercifully give us chances to get back on his good side.
he created us knowing full well in advance exactly what our failings would be- that doesn't make any sense! why would you punish someone for doing something that was known before they were even born!
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Uhhh, that was a dodge.
Yes, I can give you about a 99% certainty under those circumstances what would happen. I don't have to be omniscient, and even if I was, it wouldn't change a thing (which is after all the point).
You are saying the path cannot be altered or God isn't omniscient. Agreed. Where you always lose it is taking that point and equating it with God made it happen.
Yes, God knew there'd be original sin.
Yes, God knew there'd be the Law, and it would get screwed up by man.
Yes, God knew there'd be war.
Yes, God knew there'd be suffering.
Yes, God knew He'd send His Son to be sacrificed.
Other than Jesus (who in reality is the earthly manifistation of God), no individual's path is set by anyone other than themselves. This is why we are ultimately accountable.
It's like this... free will means just that. It means some will not go the way God wants them to. It doesn't mean God made them take that path. People choose to be apart from God, not the other way around. And if you really want to get right down to it, hell is being separated from God. So you see... people choose to go to hell.
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no, actually i still think you are missing it by a mile. how about this:
before time, god knew he would create a species called humans, he knew that one of them would be named joe, he knew that on joe's 34th birthday he would have a choice to kill his wife after an argument, he knew that joe would choose to kill her and he knew that joe would be unrepentant and go to hell.
joe was born with no say in his creation but even when he was an innocent toddler god already knew what joe would do.
what's more evil? joe the murderer or a god that felt it necessary to create joe in the first place? uncreated, joe would never do any evil or burn in hell- god created joe knowing full well that that would be joe's fate.
god is sadistic- see above.
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But Joe always did have the choice.
C'mon... how would you know there was free choice if people always chose the same path? Yet... you would condemn God for creating people with free will that choose to go another direction?
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Originally posted by Kieran
It would appear so, Apache.
I'll say it again... God will let you jump. God knew you were going to jump. God did not make you jump.
See it now?
Yep. I see that omniscient, all-powerful, changes water into wine God person just standing by and letting me do it. Not egg-zackly setting a proper example is he? But what should I expect from one who could stop the horrors of war, starvation, etc., but doesn't. It's much more rational to assume he (He, She, It) doesn't exist.
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joe's fate was set from the day he was born- how can't you see that? for him to have had a choice, one of the options had to be "don't kill wife" but that option didn't exist to joe.- god created him knowing that the "kill wife " version would prevail without a doubt.
i mean god designed joe, built his hardware by hand, installed him with his own god brand morality software v1.0 which predisposes the human to sin yet punishes them for choosing it. and then he scripted him to kill his wife-
joe couldn't have chosen "not kill wife" because the outcome was known even before he existed- joe was sentenced to be created and suffer that fate.
god is like a space toy maker gone mad. building us one minute and then being dissatsfied with us the next, tossing us by the armful into the fire. if you were going to engineer a world and a species and had god powers would you design such a bizarro system?
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More appropriately, not an omniscent person with his focus on the world, I'd say. There's the bigger picture you see, and that bigger picture is eternity. So yeah, there's suffering here on earth, but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing compared to eternity.
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Let's turn this around- tell me how to give your children free will without actually letting them exercise that free will.
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kieran- freewill couldn't exist in a universed fitted with an omniscient god. everything would be known so every choice would at minumum be a kind of prophecy fulfillment. but we can look around every day and see that freewill does exist, and that your choices do make a difference and by choosing one way over the other we can effect the way our lives go.
that suggests to me that if there is a god, it isn't like the one we're imagining. freewill is just a weird phenomenon that is a biproduct of us being stuck in a one way dimension in time. if it were like the spatial dimensions we could go forward and backward in it and freewill wouldn't have the same meaning. blame time :)
it's just interesting on it's own it doesn't need to eminate from god to be worth thinking about.
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kieran- freewill couldn't exist in a universed fitted with an omniscient god. everything would be known so every choice would at minumum be a kind of prophecy fulfillment.
And how does this eliminate free will? This is where the logic breaks down IMHO.
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Try this perspective. God, in a realm beyond time and space (difficult to imagine) creates the universe. Because time itself is his creation he does not live in the same linear fashion as his creation but rather is able to see it from beginning to end.
In his creation is the potential for great goodness, love, and kindness but also the potential for great evil, hate, and selfishness.
Why did God create the potential for evil? Without seeing the whole picture it can be hard to understand. Nevertheless, I can accept that to achieve his goal, God found it desireable to do just that. Maybe to achieve the greatness he desired of his creation it was necessary for there to be a struggle? I can only speculate.
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Originally posted by Kieran
More appropriately, not an omniscent person with his focus on the world, I'd say. There's the bigger picture you see, and that bigger picture is eternity. So yeah, there's suffering here on earth, but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing compared to eternity.
Ewe, the eternity in Hell card. I'm soooo scared. Fear and guilt do not a healthy here and now make.
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Although true, that's not what I meant. I meant that whatever suffering we go through on earth is temporary.
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Kieran, the problem with free will as has been stated before is that it is a localized phenomena.
Meaning that each individual might have free will, might have the possibility to choose between A and B, but on the grander scale, there is knowledge of exactly what said individual will choose.
So God gave us free will. Even before he did this, even before we were created, he knew exactly what our choices would be.
When a path is known, a random element such as free will is by and large eliminated in the grander perspective.
It's akin to having a computer program where you have a randomizer and depending on what it outputs, A or B is chosen. Now, nothing is random in a computer (there are however various ways of getting a quite random number) and if the conditions are the same each time the program is run, the outcome will be exactly the same. Gods knowledge of us is similar to such a program.
After all, he set the conditions, he created the algorithm. And still he chooses to punish some for just following the algorithm. Or nbot punish; modern Christians are likely to argue that God isn't punishing; it is man who removes himself from God, not the other way around.
On the other hand, that argument is just a play on semantics. If I say 'either you wash my shoes or I'll kill your entire family and rape your dog, or you'll be moving away from me' you probably wouldn't accept it as you removing yourself from me - rather the conditions I've created are so harsh that it's me who is unfair.
In the free will situation there's the added problem that your future actions and the outcome is known to God.
I like you xample 'god makes it possible for you to jump. God makes you decide whether to do it or not. But he dinnae make you'. It shows the essential bit here and what's very easy to get wrong. But perhaps it is prudent to add 'God has set the conditions so that you'll jump, but outta free will' - this would more precisely reflect the situation.
Free will is a very tough philosophical question - and not even unique for Christianity. So we're not talking strictly Christianity here but a question spanning a much wider area. It is certainly interesting to get the Christian explanation however. Looking forward to more replies and I hope we can have a civil discussion without hidden remarks/contempt.
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I remain resolute on the issue of free will. I see it as possibilities set before us, and we get to choose, good or bad. In that sense, we have the option to choose bad as well as good, and we all know that people will often choose bad knowingly.
God set the conditions? Well, not exactly... how do you know you have free will if you don't have options to select? I mean, if you go to an ice cream parlor that touts over 100 flavors to choose, and all you see on the menu is vanilla, was that a real choice?
The problem with the argument God sets all conditions for failure is it is only half true. God sets conditions for success as well. The man who jumps from the window has a way out right until the fatal leap. Boiled down to its essence, you either choose to be with God or you don't.
This isn't to say bad stuff doesn't happen to good people- it does. Job is the classic example of a man living right, yet was assailed by Satan. One of the highlights of this book is how Satan works against God, trying to undo the righteous. The book is a symbol of how we must remain faithful no matter what. The message to me is even if I think I am living right and bad stuff happens I must still praise my God. Yes, God allowed Satan to attack Job, no question; but He had also given Job the equipment to endure.
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Originally posted by Kieran
God set the conditions? Well, not exactly... how do you know you have free will if you don't have options to select? I mean, if you go to an ice cream parlor that touts over 100 flavors to choose, and all you see on the menu is vanilla, was that a real choice?
in this case you would have 31 flavors to choose from and to you it would appear as a choice. but since god knew the flavor you would pick before you were even born- before you were ever capable of making a choice- then you only have that option whether it feels like a choice or not.
before the universe was even created god knew you'd pick raspberry swirl, whether you augle the caramel fudge or pine for pistachio it is already public record in god-world that you will undoubtably pick raspberry swirl.
in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.
it takes a little outside the box thinking though i hate that cliche. in short, you can't create something, know exactly what it will do for eternity and then claim it ever had a choice. it only acts one way or the other because it's entire script is known before it is ever run.
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AKIron answered it best from a Christian point of view. Yes, God knows that person A will make some evil choice in their life and allows them to make that choice. However, it's part of God's plan and that evil was necessary to His plan. Why? We don't know, we can never know in our mortal lives.
We as humans routinely commit "evil" to further ourselves, or stop other evil. Our soldiers (police officers, and even civilians defending themselves) kill other humans. We see this as a "necessary evil," regardless if we are Christians or athiests. Taking a life is wrong, but sometimes it has to be done. We all agree to this. Now apply that to why God allows all the sufferring in the world to take place. God knows it's necessary, and that's why he allows it to happen. We just can't understand it as easily (or at all) like we can understand killing for a cause (to stop an evil tyrant, self defense, mercy killing, etc.)
Part of a person's faith in their deity is believing that the vision/actions of the deity is for the overall best, even though it might suck for the individual. Accepting that is a huge hurdle, IMO, to believing in God, or whatever deity you choose.
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before the universe was even created god knew you'd pick raspberry swirl, whether you augle the caramel fudge or pine for pistachio it is already public record in god-world that you will undoubtably pick raspberry swirl.
in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.
Point B doesn't automatically follow point A.
God knew what flavor you would pick. God also knows he let you pick.
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Originally posted by mrfish
in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.
By this are you saying that we don't have free will or that there is no one/thing that knew what you would choose?
There's a possible flaw in your logic if I understand you right. Consider that today I can look back and see what choices you and I made yesterday. Since I now irrefutably know the outcome does that mean we didn't have free will?
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That's more or less what I have been saying, AK. Preknowledge of what someone will do given a number of choices doesn't mean they didn't choose their path.
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I agree Kieran, but it is a difficult concept that God could create a continuum knowing the end result when he created it and yet still allow for freedom within it.
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I guess I look at it differently. I see it as God creating the pieces and setting them in motion. He of course could see the paths everything would take, but it doesn't mean he directed each path.
Now there are three areas I see God intervening:
1. The fall of man
2. Giving the Law
3. The coming of Jesus
Now in the first case we have man, with his free will, choosing to go against God (original sin). God placed man in paradise free of age and illness and toil, and only asked one thing in return- to stay away from one particular tree. This man could not do, and was cast out of paradise.
In the second case, the Law represents God's Holy Word. It is given to man, and man is told to follow the Law. This too proves to be impossible, and it shows us man cannot make himself perfect, no matter how hard he tries.
Finally comes Jesus. Jesus's role is simple; He alone is the only way to heaven, and only then through grace. His ultimate blood sacrifice is the highest act of love possible, and because of this act we can be forgiven of our sins and may enter heaven- if we follow Jesus.
Each step was necessary to prepare the people, and to help them understand God.
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Good point about the intervention Kieran.
Many have argued (not just on this board) that because God built in man the predisposition to sin that he cannot justly hold man accountable. That might be true if not for the intervention which you have so eloquently stated.
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Originally posted by AKIron
By this are you saying that we don't have free will or that there is no one/thing that knew what you would choose?
There's a possible flaw in your logic if I understand you right. Consider that today I can look back and see what choices you and I made yesterday. Since I now irrefutably know the outcome does that mean we didn't have free will?
well what does your common sense tell you? it's one of two things- either there is freewill- i mean you can choose between one thing and the next can't you? so it seems to be the case
or
if our entire histories are known by some entity then no there isn't freewill- it has to be the case because if our entire histories and futures are known then they only have on possible path- if they only have one possible path then a certain chain of events HAS to happen. if i am an actor in the scenario then i am obliged to it from the second i exist.
i'll never know or care because only the things i have control over matter and from where i sit, i appear to have freewill so i am acting as if i do. it's the only choice that makes sense.
as for your second point i thought it was obvious that knowing the outcome of the event before the event took place would be a precondition. knowing something after it happens doesn't effect your ability to make the decision because it is at a point along the timeline beyond the point where you had a chance to exercise your will. i don't get your connection frankly....
i don't believe there is a single path through time, but the good paths are also blatant common sense: don't rob, you know why? because if we don't rob as a society we don't have to spend time defending against robbers- it's more efficient. people are too dim still to come to those conculsions, they still think lifting a purse will advance their position but only because they can't follow the consequences of their action through more than a few iterations - like someone who is bad at chess. i'd like to think the future would be brighter though, let's hope.
kieran:
sodom and gomorah: didn't work
moses+commandments: didn't work
flood: didn't work
jesus: didn't work
etc.....etc............
are you saying that god cooks up a plan to help us see the light now and then but sometimes the plan isn't a complete success? you mean god fails? or are you like the other guy who says it only seems like god fails but really it's just too complicated for us to understand? that record is starting to skip frankly.... i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....
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Originally posted by mrfish
i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....
I don't think you see far enough ahead to judge that.
Free will has been debated by many for a long time. Since it is beyond human experience to see the future before it happens I can understand how you feel concerning the lack thereof if everything is predestined. Nonetheless, I think it is the case.
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are you saying that god cooks up a plan to help us see the light now and then but sometimes the plan isn't a complete success? you mean god fails? or are you like the other guy who says it only seems like god fails but really it's just too complicated for us to understand? that record is starting to skip frankly.... i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....
Nope, not saying that at all.
I am saying God made us. He gave us free will. He knows by doing so some will not choose to be with Him. He provided a way to show man the necessity of choosing Him. He did this in three phases: He showed how man failed (original sin); He showed how man could not make himself perfect again (the Law); and He showed how Jesus alone could defeat death, and how through the sacrifice of the ultimate innocent, our sins our forgiven.
It is methodical and sequential, and makes perfect sense. These three events are not "patches" for a flawed plan, they are part of the plan. As far as predestiny is concerned, yes, I believe these three events are preordained. This does not mean individual paths are set in stone. In fact, it's because God did not set the paths in stone it was necessary to create the three preordained events mentioned above.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Nope, not saying that at all.
I am saying God made us. He gave us free will. He knows by doing so some will not choose to be with Him. He provided a way to show man the necessity of choosing Him. He did this in three phases: He showed how man failed (original sin); He showed how man could not make himself perfect again (the Law); and He showed how Jesus alone could defeat death, and how through the sacrifice of the ultimate innocent, our sins our forgiven.
It is methodical and sequential, and makes perfect sense. These three events are not "patches" for a flawed plan, they are part of the plan. As far as predestiny is concerned, yes, I believe these three events are preordained. This does not mean individual paths are set in stone. In fact, it's because God did not set the paths in stone it was necessary to create the three preordained events mentioned above.
ok, weird plan though, sorry, can't get into it. your faith is cool though, it's better than apathy :)
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I think everyone is missing a key ingrediant here.
Satan..formerly a perfect angel.. deceived Eve into sin and Adam..led by his groin.. followed her into it.
Adam and Eve were created perfectly. It was an outside temptation that led to sin.
Now we are left with a question, Is any of Gods mankind creation capable of following Gods laws even if faced with temptation or adversity?
Jesus was placed on Earth as a perfect man and had to endure this, Successfully passed this test and became the perfect sacrifice, thus doing away with the mosaic law of sacrificing animals in our behalf.
God wishes none to be destroyed but encourages all to turn to him and thus be spared.
Yes Free Will does enter into it. None are pre-ordained to a life of Blatant sin. We all are responsable for the course we Choose to take in life.
There are many shining examples of Men or women in the past who have followed Gods laws and Jesus examples, showing its possible to draw close to God.
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Well, I'm free from sin. I've never sinned in my entire life, and I probably never will.
That's the advantage of being a non theist.
Have I been an stunninghunk from time to time? Aye. Done stupid things? Aye. But sinned? Nope.
I still think there are major holes in the free will argument. However, this sin't the proper forum for it. The proper forum is to have the discussion with people you don't know. That way there'll be no hurt feelings that have any long term consequenses. Stepping on someones faith is likely to be upsetting to that person :).
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Originally posted by Ping
I think everyone is missing a key ingrediant here.
Satan..formerly a perfect angel.. deceived Eve into sin and Adam..led by his groin.. followed her into it.
Adam and Eve were created perfectly. It was an outside temptation that led to sin.
-snip-
How can satan have been a perfect angel if his pride overcame him, and he turned against god? That strikes me as an angel who's a few vol-au-vents short of a picnic. Not the perfect creation of a perfect being.
Satan is meant to be bad
So we are left with the fact that god EITHER :-
a::deliberately created satan to turn against him, or
b::the nature of god is dualistic (i.e god is Good AND Evil).
Of course this is heresy (literally) and people have been killed for believing it ( a long time ago ).
God is ineffable. Satan is as much a part of god's 'plan' as Herod and Judas are. Those who turn against god are bound to do so of their own free will - I can't figure it out, but other people claim to understand it.
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The proper forum is to have the discussion with people you don't know. That way there'll be no hurt feelings that have any long term consequenses. Stepping on someones faith is likely to be upsetting to that person
Quite honestly, why? Can't you express an opinion in a way that doesn't directly insult someone for believing a certain way? I mean... have I ever insulted your disbelief?
I have absolutely zero problem discussing the issue. I only have the problem when the topic goes to "you're stupid because...", and that to me is the signal there is no discussion occurring. Even then I am not really insulted, I just have no interest in continuing if there is no real point. There really isn't anyone on the board who's ever made me made over the topic, believe it or not. The two most vocal anti-religious people on this BBS are Mr.Fish and you, and you are both articulate about it. Sure, there are others that jump in to place their one-liners, but it's like that in every thread. I generally ignore that static for what it is. The conversations with you both have been well worth it.
Sometimes I see setup lines, and I know what's coming. Sometimes I jump in, sometimes I move right along. If I get to feeling there is no point, I'd probably just ignore it.
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ping- your post implies that god didn't know satan would go bad or that satan is acting in a way that god didn't intend or drawing on a power that was created by some force other than god, but if that's the case god had myriad chances to stop everything and recreate it the way he wanted it to work before hand. i'd say that the concept you tend to violate in your thinking is that anything can be outside of god or originate at any point other than god.
come on santa- this is what debates are like, ever watch those politician shows? we are a lot nicer than them by a mile...you may think i'm brusque and overly honest but if you keep in mind that in rl i'm 6'3" and 235 lbs then you see i'm actually quite delicate and dainty for my size (wink wink here's a nice lace doiley i knitted to set your tea on)
i guess i don't worry about stepping on anyone's toes because most of my realizations come to me after a good flogging anyway lol- i'm extremely tough on myself regarding my beliefs because that's what it takes to keep checking yourself and to live free of conditioning and honestly, some beliefs and opinions are hard to let go of but that's the price of progress- as a human it's easy to get lulled into an easy belief-
every ten seconds the news is repeating what i should think over and over, signs on the street and advertisements drill in the things that are supposed to be popular in society and keep re-emphasizing what i should think is important etc- it takes a constant effort to recalibrate yourself through all those attempts to groom you into thinking one way or another.
i'm no meaner to bbs people than i'd be to myself. except kieran of course but that's only because he's so completely wrong....;)
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Quite honestly, why? Can't you express an opinion in a way that doesn't directly insult someone for believing a certain way? I mean... have I ever insulted your disbelief? [/b}
Nah, I wasn't referring to you - rather some of my fellow no0n believers :)
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Kieren, how about this:
You are going to flip a coin. What is the probability that it will be heads?
50%.
Right?
Now, let’s say I know ahead of time with absolute certainty that when you flip the coin, it is going to be heads. Don’t worry about how I know this, I just do. And with absolute certainty – I cannot be wrong. Furthermore, I don’t tell you ahead of time.
Now when you flip the coin what is the probability that it will be heads?
100%.
Right?
After all, I knew it was going to be heads, so it has to be. Of course, since I didn’t tell you this, you thought it was a 50% probability. Little did you know it was absolutely going to be heads. Logically, I can prove this because all alternatives (that is, the coin comes up tails) violates the precondition (i.e. that I absolutely knew it would be heads.)
It’s the same thing Fish is saying. Once someone knows with absolute certainty the outcome of any event, then that is what has to happen. It can’t be random. And nobody can choose to make any other event happen. Anything else violates the precondition.
Of course it doesn’t work in retrospect, as someone tried to argue. Back to the coin flip.
This time I have no idea what the outcome is, other than there is a 50% probability that it will be heads. You flip the coin. It’s heads. Now I know with absolute certainty that it was heads because I saw it happen. But the fact that I know this now does not change the original probability. It was still 50%.
Is that more clear?
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I totally 100% understand what Mr.Fish (and you) are saying, really, I do.
What I cannot make clear is the concept knowing what will happen is not the same as making something happen.
God said "This will come to pass". From our perspective we can look at it like "God is going to make this happen". Not true. God has seen what will happen and is telling us.
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Originally posted by Kieran
What I cannot make clear is the concept knowing what will happen is not the same as making something happen.
But that’s not what we’re saying. In my example, I did not make the coin flip be heads. I was just a passive (albeit all-knowing) observer. I knew what would happen, but I didn’t make it happen. It was my perfect knowledge of what would happen that made the coin flip be heads.
In other words, we are not arguing that God would make things happen, we’re arguing that His omniscience would make them happen. What we are really arguing is omniscience and free will are logically contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both.
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We've plowed all this ground before. I don't believe covering it all again is going to change anyone's mind. People tend to be very stubborn about hanging on to their religious beliefs, or lack of them.
Besides, only constructive discourse is interesting. Much of this is self-centered and egotistical in nature, as evidence by such statements as "...only the illiterate need the opiate of a god..!"
The final scene in the play Inherit the Wind includes a confrontation between E.K. Hornbeck (atheistic journalist) and Henry Drummond (agnostic lawyer). Upon learning of the death of Matthew Harrison Brady (prosecuting attorney in the Monkey Trial) Hornbeck irreverently blasts Brady and his beliefs. An angry Drummond lashes out at him.
Hornbeck: You know what I thought of him, and I know what you thought. Let us leave the lamentations to the illiterate! Why should we weep for him/ He cried enough for himself! The national tear-duct from Weeping Water, Nebraska, who flooded the whole nation like a one-man Mississippi! You know what he was: A Barnum-bunkum Bible-beating bastard!
Drummond: You smart-aleck! You have no more right to spit on his religion than you have a right to spit on my religion! Or my lack of it!
Hornbeck: Well, what do you know! Henry Drummond for the defense...even of his enemies!
Drummond: There was much greatness in this man.
Hornbeck: Shall I put that in the obituary?
Drummond: Write anything you damn please.
Hornbeck: How do you write an obituary for a man who's been dead thirty years?...What did he say to the minister? It fits! He delivered his own obituary! (He looks about the witness stand for a Bible...spots one.) Here it is: his book! Proverbs, wasn't it?
Drummond: (quietly) He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind; and the fool shall be servant to the wise in heart."
Hornbeck: We're growing an odd crop of agnostics this year!
Drummond: I'm getting damned tired of you, Hornbeck.
Hornbeck: Why?
Drummond: You never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow up something.
Hornbeck: That's a typical lawyer's trick: accusing the accuser!
Drummond: What am I accused of?
Hornbeck: I charge you with contempt of conscience! Self-perjury. Kindness aforethought. Sentimentality in the first degree.
Drummond: Why? Because I refuse to erase a man's lifetime? I tell you Brady had the same right as Cates: the right to be wrong!
Hornbeck: "Be-Kind-To-Bigots" Week. Since Brady's dead, we must be kind. God, how the world is rotten with kindness.
Drummond: A giant once lived in that body. But Matt Brady got lost. Because he was looking for God too high up and too far away.
Shuckins.
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It was my perfect knowledge of what would happen that made the coin flip be heads.
No, it isn't. Your perfect knowledge let you know ahead of time what the coin flip would be; it didn't predetermine the outcome.
God can say from that perspective, "This is what will be." Since He has seen the future, He knows what will be. He knows what the result of a coin toss would be. His telling you the result beforehand has nothing to do with the actual flip itself.
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Some of you are having a difficult time at grasping the depth of Gods love it seems.
Our freewill goes so far in that, not only does God know we will make wrong choices, he loves us enough not to stop us.
When all is said and done, God will be surrounded with those that chose to be with him.
Thats freewill.
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Freewill also allows you to apparently commit some of the worst sins, yet if you ask for God's forgiveness... he will forgive you... and all is good, and you will be seated next to him in heaven.
You guys are gonna be surrounded by rapists, murderers, and various other prison inmates for eternity.
That's heaven?
-SW
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doesnt annoy me one bit...makes me mad as a hornet tho...lol
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Jesus will team up with the Marine Corps somday and kick as$'s of the non-believers..........
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Jesus will team up with the Marine Corps somday and kick as$'s of the non-believers..........
Yeah right, and Teletubbies aren't queer.
-SW
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Actually it doesn't bother me at all, AKS. Sin is sin in God's eyes. If the sin is washed away, what was done on earth isn't going to matter a bit. If a person experiences true repentance and God forgives him/her, I have no place in judging them.
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You lived the good life... they led a life that took several other's lives, raped other's lives, and/or stole from other's lives.
But somehow you both "earned" your places in heaven next to God...
Out of all the anguish and problems the latter life caused, that life still gets the same benefits you do for living according to God's plan.... and you both still get to heaven?
The benefit for believing in this God seems about as great as an eternity of being with the absolute worst of the worst kind of people... and in a way, that's what you end up with.
I'm not trying to insult... but it just seems this way to me.
-SW
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It goes back to the concept that you are no better than anyone else in God's eyes. You either choose to be with Him or you don't.
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Fair enuff.
-SW
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Originally posted by Kieran
I totally 100% understand what Mr.Fish (and you) are saying, really, I do.
What I cannot make clear is the concept knowing what will happen is not the same as making something happen.
God said "This will come to pass". From our perspective we can look at it like "God is going to make this happen". Not true. God has seen what will happen and is telling us.
if you create a toy and know absolutely that if you turn it on it will walk out of your workshop and destroy a grocery store then do you have no liability?
what if you magically infuse it with the freewill to either destroy or spare the grocery store, even though you still know absolutely ahead of time which it will pick.
further, what if, before you enable it to leave you give it your opinion on the way that freewill would be used, knowing all the while he was still going to go out and destroy or spare the store?
do you think you'd have any liability? what if shop owner came back to you with a smoldering awning in one hand and a picture of your toy in the other- would you tell him, "well i gave him choice, it's his fault. of course i knew he'd destroy your awning before i turned him on and set him out the door but he made the choice. i gave him the freewill thing so he'd pick the right choice"
god designed this world? i get stuck on why a god would enjoy all this drama- why the best use of their power and eternal nature would be to create a little rock where people have the duty to figure out how to live right when you already know how the game will turn out. you'd think they'd be a bit more sophisticated than that.
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Haeh, you're either with him or against him.
A righteous man who all his life has worked to save others, who've gone through terrible hardships to assist and ultimately paid the highest price for it goes to hell.
A child molester and serial killer repents on his death bed and goes to heaven.
It's not the kind of justice as I subscribe to.
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me either santa- along that line:
say someone kills a person every day of their adult life and is as evil as possible starting at age 20 and he dies at age 60.
if i had to sentence the guy, i'd have to take into account that he only existed for 60 years, that i created him and that i knew without a doubt he'd do it.
maybe 80 years to pay for 40 years of evil- or if we was really rotten maybe 1000 years of hell - but eternity? even i couldn't be that dastardly. but god would? i couldn't think of anyone no matter how bad that deserves that- we're only humans, some punishment is in order but eternity...
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Mr.Fish
Perhaps in the grand scheme of things the grocery store is unimportant?
Perhaps God allowing a way back to Him is what the plan is from the beginning?
Perhaps God is making man understand that no man is anything more than the man next to him?
Perhaps God is making man understand he cannot make himself righteous?
The viewpoint you and Santa seem to share on many of these issues is "Why is it people that are generally good get excluded from God's heaven?". These good people refuse to acknowledge God as Savior. Without that acknowledgement, their sin cannot be forgiven. Without forgiveness, they cannot enter heaven.
It isn't up to me to decide who deserves heaven and who doesn't; and in fact, this very case you outlined is a good example of why people should not get too complacent in their salvation.
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Originally posted by mrfish
me either santa- along that line:
say someone kills a person every day of their adult life and is as evil as possible starting at age 20 and he dies at age 60.
if i had to sentence the guy, i'd have to take into account that he only existed for 60 years, that i created him and that i knew without a doubt he'd do it.
maybe 80 years to pay for 40 years of evil- or if we was really rotten maybe 1000 years of hell - but eternity? even i couldn't be that dastardly. but god would? i couldn't think of anyone no matter how bad that deserves that- we're only humans, some punishment is in order but eternity...
Not all Christians agree as to what exactly hell is or who belongs there. I'm pretty glad that no one here decides who winds up there. Consider though that it may not be so much of a punsihment as a choice. Don't love God then you won't want to be with him, right?
What if hell is nothing more than the physical universe sucked into a giant black hole at the end of time?
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Originally posted by Kieran
Mr.Fish
Perhaps in the grand scheme of things the grocery store is unimportant?
tell that to the store owner- or the doomed toy that gets tortured forever because he couldn't correct his maker's flaw fast enough.
we don't have anything to do with god's plan, he knew the outcome of his plan before any of us were in existence. why would he 'need' us for anything?
i wouldn't want to hang out with god at the after-show party anyway. i can't imagine sitting there sipping hot toddies while he walks around with a turtleneck recapping some of his more clever acheivements- all kinds of chicks from alabama with 8.5 lbs of makeup and that alert look hanging on his arm. yek
all the while there'd be all these good people whose only sin was not falling down on their faces and begging god to forgive their trivial sins burning for eternity somewhere.
i could never get that out of my mind or enjoy my afterlife knowing that such a total miscarriage of justice went down. i sure wouldn't want to hang with the entity that couldn't make a better plan than that and seems pretty stuck on himself to boot.
oh well-
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Originally posted by mrfish
tell that to the store owner- or the doomed toy that gets tortured forever because he couldn't correct his maker's flaw fast enough.
we don't have anything to do with god's plan, he knew the outcome of his plan before any of us were in existence. why would he 'need' us for anything?
i wouldn't want to hang out with god at the after-show party anyway. i can't imagine sitting there sipping hot toddies while he walks around with a turtleneck recapping some of his more clever acheivements- all kinds of chicks from alabama with 8.5 lbs of makeup and that alert look hanging on his arm. yek
all the while there'd be all these good people whose only sin was not falling down on their faces and begging god to forgive their trivial sins burning for eternity somewhere.
i could never get that out of my mind or enjoy my afterlife knowing that such a total miscarriage of justice went down. i sure wouldn't want to hang with the entity that couldn't make a better plan than that and seems pretty stuck on himself to boot.
oh well-
Unfortunately for you MrFish there won't be a jury around to be incensed by the total injustice of it all when you give account for your life, only one judge.
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Originally posted by mrfish
tell that to the store owner- or the doomed toy that gets tortured forever because he couldn't correct his maker's flaw fast enough.
we don't have anything to do with god's plan, he knew the outcome of his plan before any of us were in existence. why would he 'need' us for anything?
i wouldn't want to hang out with god at the after-show party anyway. i can't imagine sitting there sipping hot toddies while he walks around with a turtleneck recapping some of his more clever acheivements- all kinds of chicks from alabama with 8.5 lbs of makeup and that alert look hanging on his arm. yek
all the while there'd be all these good people whose only sin was not falling down on their faces and begging god to forgive their trivial sins burning for eternity somewhere.
i could never get that out of my mind or enjoy my afterlife knowing that such a total miscarriage of justice went down. i sure wouldn't want to hang with the entity that couldn't make a better plan than that and seems pretty stuck on himself to boot.
oh well-
For someone who, "read and studied the bible", your total and complete lack of knowledge and understanding is astounding.
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in what way?
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OK heres a scenario for you:
Bob lives on an Island called Boogalooga with his tribe in the middle of the Pacific. He has lived there all his life. They have never had contact with Christians, and the Boogaloogan's worship several deities, including a fish god, rain god, and earth god.
Bob leads a good life, worships his gods, including making fish god idols etc.
Bob dies.
What happens when Bob fronts up at the Pearly gates?
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Bob is screwed.
Why do you think there are Christian missionaries flying all over the world to places like Boogalooga?
:)
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Originally posted by Kieran
No, it isn't. Your perfect knowledge let you know ahead of time what the coin flip would be; it didn't predetermine the outcome.
I believe it does, as I tried to show. But I don't know any better way to explain it so I suspect we'll just have to disagree on this one.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Bob is screwed.
Why do you think there are Christian missionaries flying all over the world to places like Boogalooga?
:)
uh-oh, well let's hope they hurry and get bob to apologize for making statues before he slips on a rock and has to spend eternity writhing in a lake of fire.
further- since there is no christ in bob's country, it is probably a dangerous place with 11,000 gun murders per year and endless reality tv shows. i doubt it could ever be peaceful like a good christian home like america. what a frightening country bob must live in.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Bob is screwed.
Why do you think there are Christian missionaries flying all over the world to places like Boogalooga?
:)
Obviously to bring all the heathens to Christ. Or kill them or have their way with their women or pass along exotic diseases they have no antibodies for. Or to gather them up and send 'em back home as cheap/free labor. Or keep them in place to help us pillage their natural resources. In the name of God, of course. :rolleyes:
GronK
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres a scenario for you:
Bob lives on an Island called Boogalooga with his tribe in the middle of the Pacific. He has lived there all his life. They have never had contact with Christians, and the Boogaloogan's worship several deities, including a fish god, rain god, and earth god.
Bob leads a good life, worships his gods, including making fish god idols etc.
Bob dies.
What happens when Bob fronts up at the Pearly gates?
Bob will do the same thing in Heaven that he did on Earth- only instead of standing at the entrance to the cruise ship docks begging Americans for money he'll be standing at the entrance to the Pearly Gates begging Americans for money. Don't feel too bad for Bob, tho- he'll do better begging in Heaven than he ever did on Earth.
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Arfann you ever known any missionaries?
I know quite a few. They are good people.
They firmly believe that they are saving people from death and helping them obtain eternal life. And they are so committed to helping people in this way that they give up prosperous careers in the US and volunteer to live in some of the worst toejamholes on the planet, often at the risk of imprisonment or more violent forms of persecution. I can't think of anything more kind or selfless.
They would never do any of the things you mention. If I didn't know better I might think you were an anti-christian bigot from your post.
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It would appear the Christian God only wants to save those who can hear the word of God (aka the bible).... if he created you too far from civilisation for you to hear the word...
Yer fukd.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It would appear the Christian God only wants to save those who can hear the word of God (aka the bible).... if he created you too far from civilisation for you to hear the word...
Yer fukd.
-SW
You have a point, but remember that believers are also compelled to spread the good news.
Ironically the resulting evangelical activies are what so many people on this board complain about.
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Problem is Funked... they spend a good amount of their time in a civilisation spreading the good word... when people know damn well where to find the good word...
Outside of civilisation's borders, in the boondocks of poo country... where the chances of hearing about the good word are slim to none is where these evangelists need to spend their time spreading the word.
Otherwise, they are simply a nuisance.
-SW
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres a scenario for you:
Bob lives on an Island called Boogalooga with his tribe in the middle of the Pacific. He has lived there all his life. They have never had contact with Christians, and the Boogaloogan's worship several deities, including a fish god, rain god, and earth god.
Bob leads a good life, worships his gods, including making fish god idols etc.
Bob dies.
What happens when Bob fronts up at the Pearly gates?
I think there are several references in the bible that indicate a person is only responsible for what they know. However, God puts knowledge of himself in everyone. How they act based on that knowledge is how they will be judged.
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Gotta write a paper tonight... I will get back to this when I am through. AKIron laid the short of it down already, however. S!
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I have to thank you guys for this question... it was some interesting reading for me.
Hebrews 11:6 is probably the most relevant passage... in effect, it says people are judged by how they act on what knowledge of God they possess.
Now on the surface that looks like people that never heard of God are screwed. Not so. People are judged by how they act on what knowledge of God they possess suggests if they have no knowledge of God, they can't be held accountable. This takes care of infant deaths, the mentally handicapped, or those that die too young to really know God.
But... is this a free ticket for the gentleman from Boogaloo? No. God built into every person an innate knowledge of a higher being... and, He sent the Holy Spirit. Even the scientists amongst you will admit worshipping deities is pretty much a universal human trait. Arguably this is placed by God so that man will seek Him.
Now this is the part I like best... one of the knocks you hear on religion is it isn't unified, and that even believers cannot decide what to believe, or who's right. Well... it may not matter a great deal. Acting on the faith and knowledge you possess is the important thing. I'll have to study that one a lot closer, but it is something I had not considered before.
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I believe that the first chapter of Romans addresses Bob's situation:
Romans 1: 18-26 NKJV
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Even though Bob did not hear the Word of God from a human, his desire to worship multiple dieties was a perversion of his recognition that there is a creator.
And the Word of God states the following as a consequence of sin:
Romans 1:26-32
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
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First of all..I am the Grandson of 2 ministers. I am the oldest brother of 1. My grandfathers were more the Fire and Brimstone type. (Pentecostal) My Brother (who has been a minister for a few years and I just now heard him preach 2 weeks ago) is more the Type of christian you seem to be. He's AOG ordained.
I just wanted to commend you on your way of handling this disscussion. This is not to knock some of the others here , but more to say , that you are the type of Christian I can get along with.
Being brought up in a christian home , I do believe in God. Having Grandfathers and a Brother who are ministers in some way makes it almost a must. Not sure why. Recently in our family we have had some hardships. My Mother has been diagnosed with Cancer and it's terminal. Some other things have happend as well. Not getting into it here.
Reading your words in professing your belief as well as the others who believe are refreshing in a world that is trying it's best to make christianity even harder work than it is. I'm not a good christian by any means. That is ti say I was as they say saved but don't live the life I should. I know the ultimate outcome if I don't get right with God. However......
I have a question for you. What in your mind is heaven like. I know the bibles answer. But I would like to hear yours. What do YOU think it is....
St.Santa......
don't take this as a hijack bud....Just trying to ask a question of someone whom after reading alot from on this BBS from them , I'm learning to respect his opinion more and more.
Thanks Kieran and Santa for the disscussion.
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VFJackal-
Thanks for the words. Actually, you ought to thank Mr.Fish and St.Santa more. They are the ones that force us all to think. Sorry to hear about the hardship you are going through right now, but it is good to hear you are staying strong in the faith. I wish I could say I was a great Christian too, but I have a long way to go- a looong way to go. :D
Heaven... I don't really know. There's plenty of talk in the Bible about God on a throne with Jesus on his right hand, and references to such things as "jewels" and "crowns", but I can't tell if that is metaphorical or literal. I don't know if we'll know one another in Heaven. The things I can be sure can be taken literally are references to there being no sickness or death, sadness or suffering, and that it will last forever. Beyond that, I can only guess. My feeling is that the Bible describes Heaven in terms the people of the time could understand, but that is only an opinion.
For that matter, I am uncertain about Hell. Is it literally a lake of fire? An abyss? Is it separation from God, and if so, is "lake of fire" analogous to the suffering such separation brings? I think of Jesus on the cross when He suffered the separation. He was certainly in agony there... I think that would be an interesting debate.
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That is ti say I was as they say saved but don't live the life I should. I know the ultimate outcome if I don't get right with God. However......
Hope I read this right. If you've been saved the ultimate outcome is an eternity with the Father it is a gift that cannot be undone or taken away by anything or anyone. Even if you've backslid. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. Rather good news I'd say. :)
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John 6:39
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me."
I John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
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K98k......
Backslid is a word from the past. Thats a good way to descibe me at this point. God and I have had a falling out as of late. My faith is being tested to the fullest right now with certain things.
Kieran,
My wife and I recently had this very disscussion. Thrones and Jewels and what nots I take as metaphorical. I really believe Heaven will be all the good things in your life. That each of us will have our own pieces of heaven in kind of the way the bible says. We each will have the things (not really material) that we loved. Each of us will know no sorrow and sadness as you stated. No sickness and death. I think that heaven for me will be a place that I find the most solice. The most contentmant. A place where I feel the most peace. Maybe my little piece of heaven will be a golf course. Perhaps it will be by my wifes side for all eternity. Maybe it will be both. Both would be my truest heaven. I want to think that heaven will be for each person a lil different. That each of us has something that truly makes us at peace and that is what each of us know as heaven. The true things in life on earth that make us our best is what we get to have all the time in heaven.
As far as hell goes....I think it will be much like where we are at now. I have a hard time thinking that a God so compassionate would make his children to suffer so painful an eternity. I think that is like the metaphorical parts of heaven. I think that it will be your worst nightmares you can imagine. Death , Haunger , strife , suffering on a scale that we haven't seen. Pain and distress will be the norm. Disease and all the things bad in the world will be on a scale unimaginalbe to us. That would be my version of hell.
But you are right...I think it would be an interesting debate.
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anwser to the origianl question YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND HELL YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I work with some hard core Cristians and they always bring up the subject of religion. They always try and convince me to go to there church. Their whole church is a scam FOR GOD SAKES THE PRIEST DRIVES A PORCHE AND THE CHURCH HAS ITS OWN CHANNEL AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES SCANDAL!!!!!!!!!
Soon enough they will have a law suite on their hands, so, :p on them i was Cristian till I saw these ignorant baffons fall right into this scandal
once they try to convert me at work well lets just say there is a law about seperation of chuch and state so their getting sued very soon!
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NOD2000,
Please go back over your post and check for spelling errors. I will recheck it in 30 minutes. There will be a written spelling test tomorrow.
Shuckins
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NOD2000-
I'll be the first to tell you that many churches are in trouble, and many Christians aren't behaving as Christians.
OTOH, wealth isn't necessarily a sign of scandal. Solomon was one of the richest men on earth, but he did great works for God. Of course he strayed as well, but in the end he came back to God.
The real problem with wealth is not wealth itself, but how the individual handles it.
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VFJackal, go ahead. This is more of a general discussion evolving. And an interesting one.
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I appreciate that Santa.....:) And Santa...Just a curious question..If you did believe in God...What would be your perspective of what Heaven and Hell would be like? I get the feeling that you have read alot of the bible and have a general knowledge of what it teaches.:)This is no way a slam...Just wondering what you think it would be? :)
Anyone elses perspective is welcome as well....Or should this be another Topic?:)
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Kieran the problem is that this church claims all money given to them (this encludes donations, collections,all money given to the church) goes to the poor. The church supports its self by selling their daily prayers, T-shirts, and Books on the channel. My freind works for the churches accounting firm that they use. I have added up all hte figures over and over agian and they are short 50 thousand dollars for all that they had bought. Over the yearthey had collected 60 thousand dollars from regular collections. You tell me where they came up with 50 thousand dollars out of no where. I only can find that they took the 50G out of collection money to make there "needed purchases" aka Porche insurence and their TV channel which is what they were short on.
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I am not arguing whether or not your church is corrupt. However, I do have to question the ethics of your friend. The church's books are none of your business unless you work for them, or you ask to see them in the presence of the deacons or administrative personnel.
Edit "churches" to "church's"
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Yes, I talked to the preist and he said that it was ok
sorry i forgot to include that earlier.
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Hm well, the problem with the Christian version of heaven is that I could not be happy in it and still be me.
If I was to be happy, I'd need all my loved ones, all my friends along with lots of historical figures I'd like to meet.
There should also be a possibility for me to live, for example, in ancient Rome and experience the culture first hand.
And I would want knowledge (that forbidden fruit) of just about all things.
If these things were not to be granted, I would not be happy. unless, of course, God modifies what is me to something that is quite similar, but not quite, me. Then I could let my friends and loved ones be in hell while I was happy for eternity in heaven.
Hm, so heaven for me. Free reign for my thoughts. A free, inquisitive mind able to travel to any situation at any time, soaking up experiences without the taint that we have in life (fear, pain, lazyness and so on). Being in a constant state of amazement of the grandeur of existence, where the discovery of the smallest particle is as great as dive through a galaxy. Knowing, being, feeling, loving. Forever.
Hell for me is not physical pain. Hell is a depression taken to its extreme, without a way to end it. Combine this with a full understanding and realization of the pointlessness of existence. A bleakness radiating, everlasting, never abating, always increasing in intensity. A sense of having reach the limit of what can be tolerated only to face more. And at the same time have FULL knowledge that this will go on, while at the same time being unable to grasp anything worse than what it is in the actual moment *now*. No way out. More to come. Forever.