Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on December 30, 2002, 02:24:31 AM
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Just wait 30 seconds before giving a credit for a kill.
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Awww, did someone die to a HO recently?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Suicide types prolly dont care about score, so I think as long as they actually sink the CV or kill the guys in the HO they'd be happy...
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But think how often people get perfectly good kills, only to be shot down seconds later by someone on their six they didn't see. They shouldn't be penalized in that situation.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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MRPLUTO, that is called target fixation, a special way of suicide.
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Get used to ho deaths if you cant learn to avoid it. Just tonight I killed seven people in a row to ho in a hurr2c. I was the only one that tried to pull away so they deserved it. Either way I would survive your 30 second rule and ho would still be in the game.
Suicide is all together different but if you ho without learning how I guess you could call it suicide. Why not just ask yourself what you are doing flying right at the guy if you dont intend to shoot or want it to be an ho? I would call it suicide.:D
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I have problems understanding why anyone would want such a lame gamey feature just because they can't easily dodge a headon.
If you don't have the skill to avoid a headon pass, then you don't deserve a feature that would discourage it.
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I accidentally ran into Hizakite last night and got the kill... busted my rudder (as though thats supposed to make any sense as I hit him from behind... cute 6 Hizakite lol) and completely hosed Hiz's ride. I was down to very low ammo and was rather pleased at the outcome of the engagement.
The way I see it... I wasn't the one who slammed on the brakes and tried to force the overshoot, therefore I was glad I got the kill, one of the few times thats happened.
Truth is though... WE BOTH SHOULDA BEEN DEAD (cheerleaders please restrain yourselves here).
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To HO or not to HO; that is the question.
I don't want to eliminate HOs at all. I usually avoid them, but it depends on the situation. If I'm desperate, or if the other guys is avoiding the HO in an uncreative way, then sometimes I go for the shot.
*******
Another situation: A fighter attacks a large buff formation from its high 10, shoots down a buff, and then is exploded as he passes through the formation. He used excellent tactics and deserves the kill, even though this time he didn't make it.
Or this one: A fighter attacks a lone B-17 from its low six. Slowly. Surely this is suicidal. But if the fighter can shoot down the buff and then stay in the air long enough, say with 1/2 a wing & in flames, then the "suicidal" fighter-dweeb gets the kill.
The amount of injustice caused by such a rule is enourmous.
*******
MANDOBLE, Target fixation is a mistake, not suicide. Almost all kills require total concentration on the target, if only for a brief moment. At that moment even the best pilot is vulnerable. That's why there are wingmen. And women.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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No more suicides, no more HOs ...
How about "No more whines"?
dago
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This is all just so wrong.
Originally posted by Tumor
I accidentally ran into Hizakite last night and got the kill... busted my rudder (as though thats supposed to make any sense as I hit him from behind...
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Best way to deal with HOs is to become a better PIMP.
:)
eskimo
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yup what kinda pimp gets beat down by hos?
I understand pimpin aint easy but your going about the wrong way.
Must be a "Euro" Pimp thing............
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HO's per say don't bother me like they used to when I first started AH, its just a cheezy tactic thats part of the game, and the only reason I still call it cheezy ( read on first ) is because of the total reliance of it and laziness most pilots have. Play it or not.
The merge HO's are easy to avoid, the ones that still bother me are the "snapshot HO's" I can't do anything about to avoid. Example, I had a great turn fight with another F4U, from about 10k down to the deck, not one HO attempt lotsa acm, turns and work for a kill. I finally managed to get his six and put him away. So here I am on the deck seconds after the kill, low and slow and some pinhead in a spit comes straight at me and bang, me being to slow to do anything dies. It would have been so easy and to me much more rewarding if I were the spit to pull up loop it get behind and fire.
Oh well play it or not.
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Originally posted by Tumor
I accidentally ran into Hizakite last night and got the kill... busted my rudder (as though thats supposed to make any sense as I hit him from behind... cute 6 Hizakite lol) and completely hosed Hiz's ride. I was down to very low ammo and was rather pleased at the outcome of the engagement.
The way I see it... I wasn't the one who slammed on the brakes and tried to force the overshoot, therefore I was glad I got the kill, one of the few times thats happened.
Truth is though... WE BOTH SHOULDA BEEN DEAD (cheerleaders please restrain yourselves here).
Tumor, something isn't right here. Do you have a recording of this?
If you ran into him from behind, you should be dead and he allive. There's not really any other way lag would allow it to happen.
Either you overshot (flew by him) and he then pulled up into you, or you actually did more damage than you thought and got the kill before you collided with him.
AKDejaVu
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Any scoring system awarding points while not having to return or ditch near a friendly base, encourages all sorts of suicide and other unrealistic maneuvers.
The current scoring system, with its complex set of variables and calculations, rewards pilots for fast kills even though they themselves may not be able to live to tell about it.
Almost nothing about the scoring system rewards pilots for any sort of realistic flying.
Understanding that this is essentially a game, as compared to a real life situation, an honest look at the scoring system by the staff is still long overdue.
Ranger Bob
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ju87's have now become plane of choice for suicide attacks on cv's.
When all it take is 1 guy in a 17 formation 8k to sink cv 95% time. I kill 100 to 200 cv's each tod never ever have suicided cv.
But to say if i drop bombs and get killed by a con before bombs hit i lose points is not fair.
Maybe there is a way to make it so bombs do not exploded if dropped less than 3000ft OVER WATER ONLY. so jabos on bases not affected. I know its 500 ft over ground now to get bombs to exploded. Maybe this 3000ft rule would stop suicides or tame them?
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
If you ran into him from behind, you should be dead and he allive. There's not really any other way lag would allow it to happen.
The other day I just parked a 109 at the top of a runaway in an enemy field, waiting for cons to take off by that side. I was completely stopped and a bish P51 spawned at my six. He ran over my and I was dead, he took off in perfect conditions.
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why make the game more unrealistic? there were kamikazes in WW2...
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Originally posted by Dago
How about "No more whines"?
dago
about as likely as no more head ons
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
The other day I just parked a 109 at the top of a runaway in an enemy field, waiting for cons to take off by that side. I was completely stopped and a bish P51 spawned at my six. He ran over my and I was dead, he took off in perfect conditions.
Stopped on the runway and flying produce entirely different lag effects. I have no idea how they would translate to the situation you are describing if say, he spawned in contact with your plane.
I do know that in the situation you described earlier, there is another issue because the pieces don't add up.
AKDejaVu
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For the Record
HO's were a part of real combat, thereforre they should be left in. Deal with it
suicides were also a part of it. Anyone remember a group called Kamakazies?.
Besides most diving attacks on CV's end up in the plane getting shot down wether you want em to or not. So the arguement is irrelevent. I never attack a CV and not want to survive it but I VERY rarely do. In 6 months I think I have survived a run on a CV exactly 4 times out of dozens and dozens of attepts.
I hope they keep em both but for different reasons also.
I hope they keep em for the same reason I dont change things about myself my wife complains about.
If they removed em
You all (like her) would all simply find something new to whine about.
Drediock
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I got this great guncam movie compendium the LW showed it's pilots, and there's a scene in it that actually shows a 190A6 HOing a P51. I don't know wether this guy or those guys just felt invulnerable, or desperate, or what. They just did it.
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If guy tries to HO me, usually I outfly him in next 10 seconds. If he tries to avoid, here I know the problem comming.
HO is a valid tactics in many cases (good punch vs. bad punch; 1 vs many; on takeoff against vulchers). After all, it is not hard to avoid them. This tour I was killed only few times trying to avoid HO, and it was thousands of such attempes. If you wish to avoid HO, you will learn it very soon, MA gives lot of chances for such practise :)
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Last night I must have had about 40 HO attempts in to flights.
In the end I just got fed up and accepted the HO and got shot down in flames in the last flight, and shot a spit in the first.
However HO's are a sound tactic in some situations, but
when co alt and energy, it actually helps YOU when the enemy
tries it. All you have to do is dive a little and time your preturn.
and you already ahead in the gameand won some angel on him,
furthermore you will be going up and turning faster as gravity
helps, he will be going downwards and will have a harder time getting around.
Sometimes when I sense the enemy will pass close to one of the
sides, I give the rudder a healty kick, and go for a snapshot, and
once in a while I get lucky and get some hits in.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Dago
How about "No more whines"?
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your response
about as likely as no more head ons
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My response:
Head-ons happens naturally
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It's very reasonably make HOs when you are in a bad shape.
I do it and I'm wonder when the other pilot, with all advantage, accepts the HO. They are dweeb, not me, because HOs can be avoided by the other pilot easly and he can use it to get more advantage.
Be clever, avoid the HO and get advantage turning while your opponent is loosing his energy.
Cya.
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RangerBob has many good points...
There are several good, simple ideas that should be used together to counter the use of suicide attacks as standard operating procedure.
1. Instead of a 1.25 perk multiplier for landed missions, make it much higher...2 or 3 maybe? And raise the multiplier for ditching and bailing safely, too.
2. Perk bombs and rockets for all non-bomber aircraft. (The A-20 might have to be reclassified.) Someone had an excellent post on this a few weeks ago, but I can't find it right now.
3. Require bombers to be more or less level to drop bombs.
These ideas wouldn't solve the problem completely, but would change behavior a great deal, I think.
OR.............even better..............just leave the MA more or less like it is, and implement the Mission Theater (MT) as described...actually penalizing the group for the loss of any aircraft. Let pilots choose what style of play they want: dweebish & suicidal or more realistic & thoughtful.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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My advice on dealing with HOs:
All you need is a big puple hat, a long fur coat, lots of gold jewelry, about 18' of chain, and a tude.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
quote:
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Originally posted by Dago
How about "No more whines"?
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your response
about as likely as no more head ons
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My response:
Head-ons happens naturally
you mean whining isn't a force of nature that bursts from the weak spots in the space/time fabric?
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HO's are very easy to detect, avoid, and defeat. Why is this even an issue?
MiG
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Originally posted by CMC Airboss
HO's are very easy to detect, avoid, and defeat. Why is this even an issue?
MiG
Exactly! I mean, doesn't it take two to tango, so to speak?
You see a head-on coming, just avoid it.
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
1. Instead of a 1.25 perk multiplier for landed missions, make it much higher...2 or 3 maybe? And raise the multiplier for ditching and bailing safely, too.
Just delay accumulation of perk points for a period of time, say, 30 seconds. If you don't live long enough after a kill or destroying a ground target for the perks to be accumulated, you don't get any perks for that attack.
3. Require bombers to be more or less level to drop bombs.
This fails for all bombers that mount bombs externally, and horribly screws planes like the Val and Stuka (and even the Ju 88), which were designed as dive-bombers; it also mildly hoses planes that were used for shallow-dive bombing, like the B-26 and A-20.
Rather than require a specific plane attitude, require that a plane dropping bombs from a bomb bay be pulling at least 1 G in order for the bombs to leave the bomb bay; otherwise they jam up inside the bay and can't be dropped (leaving the buff pilot with all that dead weight -- once a bomb jams in the bay, no further bombs will drop). It will be interesting watching people trying to make smooth pull-ups in 17s and Lancs, getting it a little wrong, and ripping their wings off -- or failing to get the bombs to drop and getting stuck with thousands of pounds of bombs in their racks and no way to drop them.
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MrPluto said :
"2. Perk bombs and rockets for all non-bomber aircraft. (The A-20 might have to be reclassified.) "
It's amazing how fast a discussion on headon passes between fighters , turns into a Bomber Bash . So excuse me , and pay attention , i'm only gonna say this once more .
Historically , there would be NO fighter planes without attack craft . Your job priorities :
1.) Protect your bombers/attack planes ...
2.) Destroy your enemies' bombers/attack planes ...
Any other conflict between fighter craft was purely incidental .
In this age of Perk this and that whines ... perhaps one could say that aviators seeking a 'good one on one engagement ; co -E , co-alt , and uninterrupted by alt monkey , cherrypicking , spitdweeb furballers ' are gaming the game and should lose all kills /perks /points they got on that sortie unless they did it protecting a bomber .
Silly ? Sure ...
Please ... Quit asking Hitech to recode the game to fit YOUR flight specifications .
Fly what you like , like what you fly ...and have a big steaming cup of STFU the next time you type the word 'Perk' unless you are talking coffee .
( i hope i spelled spitdweeb right , i'm new at this )
Reverend Max
13th SAS - Chaplain
Insane A-20 pilot , and i'm coming to your home base .
" I've got opinions , I haven't even thought of yet "
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those who are pure of heart will not be affected by the HO.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
those who are pure of heart will not be affected by the HO.
lazs
hehe
lazs, your sense of humor is showing.
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Just put four of these, in a square pattern, one sector away from the task group, and 15k in altitude and make anyone desiring to sink the CV to touch one first. :D
Uh,... IF you are so inclined! :)
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Shiva: Sorry, I should have specified that bombers like the Val, Stuka & SBD wouldn't be required to be "more or less level", since by design they are dive bombers. I was talking about bombers that were never designed to dive bomb, like B-17s and Lancs. I thought that would be obvious :rolleyes:
Also, I said "more or less level" to allow buffs to make shallow dive-bombing attacks.
Your 1G suggestion w/ the bombs getting hung up is an excellent one.
*******
RvrndMax:
You are wrong and you are rude.
The subject of this thread is "No more suicides, no more HOs..." and Mandoble's only comment was to wait 30 seconds before awarding a kill. This is also a discussion of dweeb-buff suicide attacks. It is YOU who should "pay attention".
You wrote: "Historically, there would be NO fighter planes without attack craft."
Except of course fighter sweeps conducted independently of any ground attack. Are you not aware that such operations were conducted during WW2?
You also wrote: "have a big steaming cup of STFU the next time you type the word perk"
My advice: don't ever tell people to "STFU". They have just as much right to post their views as you do.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33