Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on December 30, 2002, 10:48:03 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/mandatory.military/index.html
I'm torn on this... on the one hand, I think the living under the UCMJ should be voluntary. On the other... there is some truth to the idea that the affluent in this country are not personally at risk when our government makes war. One has to wonder how this shapes their opinions or not.
Of course... maybe that's just the history given to us as children that skews my opinion... you know... the parts where past leaders of this country spent time at the pointy end of the sword instead of buying their way to the REMF club.
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I do not see this getting passed.
Does the Military really want people who do not want to be there now?
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It won't work in the U.S. There is no immediate threat and there is a decent economy. With both of these conditions, we would have to effectively turn military compounds into prisons to keep the conscripts there.
AKDejaVu
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I don't either..We need to stop being the bully..
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Maybe we could do something similar to the Canadian system in WW2. All were subject to conscription, but only volunteers were sent to the front.
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Required military service would hurt the military more than anyone else. With the current all-volunteer army, there is a lot of flexibility with what they can do. Those who are willing to fight will be sent, those who wish not to join don't. There is no problem of "I'm against any kind of war because I might be drafted and sent there next".
There isn't a chance in hell we'd be able to go after iraq if there was the threat of a draft. The same goes for just about every military action short of defending our own borders.
It has nothing to do with "keeping the affluent safe". NOBODY is in the US military against thier will, affluent or not.
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Originally posted by nuchpatrick
I don't either..We need to stop being the bully..
I think that's Rangel's point. He believes that if we had the draft, maybe we would stop being the bully.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Maybe we could do something similar to the Canadian system in WW2. All were subject to conscription, but only volunteers were sent to the front.
From what I recall, it was more like, our allies were ticked that we weren't conscripting. So Mackenzie-King, said fine, we are passing a conscription act. He passed the act and then didn't bother conscripting anyone.
Edit: More info:
April 27
In Canada, a national vote is taken on the subject of conscription of soldiers for overseas duty. The response is 64% in favour of conscription, though in Québec 76% vote against. The Prime Minister decides that to keep Canada united, he would postpone conscription as long as possible.
May 7
In Canada, the Prime Minister recommends to Cabinet that the National Resources Mobilization Act be amended, to allow conscription for overseas war duty.
July 7
In Canada, Bill 80 passes second reading in Parliament, giving government power to conscript soldiers for war duty overseas.
"King moved slowly, stating his policy in a clever, even elusive phrase 'Not necessarily conscription but conscription if necessary.'"
Edit: Edit:
Opps, I was wrong.
"By the fall of 1944, it became clear that the Canadian Army needed infantry reinforcements that would be created only if the government invoke conscription for overseas service. King delayed as long as he could and finally agreed that conscription had become necessary. Slightly more than 12,000 conscripts were sent overseas before the war came to an end. "
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yadda yadda yadda...
as if the military exists for the comfort and convenience of the general public. Of COURSE many aren't going to want to join the military.
It's there to protect this country not pacify the public. If left up to a vote, the vote will almost always swing to the "no: side, unless under times of obvious threat (at home).
A lot of things we need to do as a country and as individuals aren't pleasant. It shouldn't be a deciding factor.
FWIW the military can be a godsend for some people...
I won't even start on about how weak minded and lazy our country is becoming (especially the younger crowd).
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
I won't even start on about how weak minded and lazy our country is becoming (especially the younger crowd).
Funny... the generations before us said the very same thing. :)
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were they right? I think so...
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I'm not so sure. We live in a different time and a different world than our parents.
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I don't know, the introduction of free agency certaintly had an effect on how some general managers looked at building teams, but at the same time, the Salary cap has reduced their ability to build exclusively through the FA market.
The fact is, that while the draft ecame was perceived as less important for a short time, in the end, it has remained the most effective way to build a team.
Oh, wait, wrong draft.
-Sik
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true but most Americans, admit it, are lazy as hell.
mentally and physically.
how many times have I seen someone get mad because their speed dial didn't work right (instead of dialing whole number),
or they can't find their remote (spend more time looking for it than just getting up to change channel),
or the mental part.. "I can't figure it out so someone tell me" attitude... take this game for example. :)
you know I'm right
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Bad idea. There will be deferments that will be available to wealthier people just like there was in the 60s, the military will be innundated with toejambirds who don't want to be there and we'll be putting unwilling kids at risk in military operations that may not even be legal, in some cases.
If Rangel is truly intrested in avoiding war then he should push legislation requiring our lawmakers to lead us into battle.
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Air.. where ya been man?
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Some more info regarding Canadian concripts in WWII:
MacKenzie King's big saying of the day was: "Conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription!" (hehe, weasle speak exemplified)
It started with the passing of the National Resources Mobilization Act (NRMA) in 1940 which gave the gov't the power to use the Nation's manpower as it saw fit. This disturbed Quebec, so MacKenzie King stated that the NRMA related "soley and exclusively to the defence of Canada on our own soil and in our own territorial waters."
As the war progressed, MacKenzie King finally acquiesced to most of his cabinet colleagues and in Nov 1944, Parliament voted to send 16,000 NRMA men overseas. In the end, only 13,000 of them went overseas. 2,463 served in the front line, and 69 were killed.
Although his conscription policy limited the potential damage to national unity, it did deprive the army of the resources it needed, when it needed them.
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The affluent always evade the draft. Since its enceptionl, the draft kills the Low Socio-Economic groups. The movie about gangs in New York was based on riots during the first draft in the Civil War. You could buy your way out of the draft with 300 dollars or paying someone to go for you. The Draft will never return.
Nothing like fighting for a Political War. Nam, Mcnamara quit when it was decided to have a war of attrition to show the North that the US was more than willing to kill its poor to support corrupt regimes.
HC
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Too bad McNamara didn't refuse the job from Kennedy. We'd have all been better off.
He was the one sitting behind the Secretary of Defense desk from the time US troop levels in VietNam went from ~1000 to 485,600 in 1968.
He was the one overseeing US military policy in VietNam throughout that time. He was the one so micromanaging the war that he and Lyndon were picking the fighter/bomber targets from the White House.
IMO, he resigned because he finally realized what an incredible, unsalvagable mess he had made of it and how many US soldiers his foolish policies had needlessly killed.
I hope it still gives him nightmares to this day.'
Just my .02.
So far, he's set the standard by which all other imbecilic civilian politicos that try to micro manage modern warfare will be judged.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
There is no immediate threat and there is a decent economy. With both of these conditions, we would have to effectively turn military compounds into prisons to keep the conscripts there.
AKDejaVu
Shack!
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It doesn't appear to me that we need to do this at all, for the good reasons already mentioned. Someday, things may change, but for now we seem to be doing fine with our professional soldiers.
Anyway, attempting to make foreign policy this way is an insult to every voter. If Rangel actually pushes mandatory service, he may well lose a chunk of his raging liberal base. I can't see him doing that.
I salute Rangel's service in Korea (as a draftee?) but I think this is just another creative way the dems will try to wield political power without actually having it...
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Is a draft a good idea for America?
Not no but hell no. I am a reservist. I also served in the regular Army for 16 years. I don't want some conscript with barely a clue in the foxhole with me. I am no longer in combat arms, but I still don't want someone serving with me that do not want to be there. You can't trust them. The best thing that ever happened to the United States Military in terms of the Quality of the Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen that serve was to get rid of the draft.
Freedom isn't free. I know, and appreciate this fact probably a lot better then most of you. I served on the East/West German border, The Persian Gulf, and in Yugoslavia. I have seen the fruits of Communism staring me in the face with an AK47 attached to it. One of the many reasons I volunteered in 1979, 1989, and a third time on Sept. 12 2001 was because this Country needs Soldiers that understand the Constitution, and believe in the Oath that is taken when entering service. No one should be forced to serve. If they are, it defeats the very idea of freedom. Patriotism is Voluntary or it isn't real. When folks start spouting on about how everyone should be forced to serve, I suggest that they should move to China, or North Korea. Their fascist Ideas would fit right in. Not to mention I think they fail to grasp how the modern battle field functions. No current General wants Cannon Fodder. That is all a conscript is good for. They want thinking fighting soldiers that understand the complex weapons and tactics that make our Military the Finest on the Planet.