Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rod367th on December 30, 2002, 08:22:37 PM
-
What about making it so Bombs don't exploded unless dropped from 3000ft or more over WATER ONLY. If I'm right its 500ft now over land. And torp don't work over 200 ft, so why can't we make bombs over water work?
Posted this as New plane of choice to Suicide cv's is the JU87's.
To be honest I found out to live killing cv's i need to be 5k or higher, I prefer 8k and if no manned 5" guns i get all 3 ships home. And only a few guys really good at using 5" guns so far.
-
We can call this the PT protection act of 2002....no way this is anything but gamey.
The issue is with people wanting the CV to be INVULNERABLE, while they park it 1 mile offshore. You want the CV to live, dont shove it up the beach, keep it offshore a ways so the NME cant see it from shore, and gets intercepted before they arive to bomb it.
-
Originally posted by rod367th
Posted this as New plane of choice to Suicide cv's is the JU87's.
And only a few guys really good at using 5" guns so far.
There is NO excuse for a ju87 EVER making it to a carrier. If a ju87 gets through fighter cap, then there wasnt any to start with, it's one of the easiest targets in the game.
The best way to stop CV suicide attacks is to have a decent 5" gunner. A 5" gunner with an hour or two of practice should easily be able to pick off 90% of suicide attacks easily. A plane flying straight at a 5" gun SHOULD be doomed. (it would be nice if rank could kick people out of the 5" guns, it'd help stop the newbies from hogging the guns and getting the fleet killed)
-
According to what I saw on the history channel recently (doesnt make it fact) most hits on a cv were not critical unless the penetrated to the fuel or ammo cells in the middle of the ship. That would seem to suggest that close egg hits that dont really hit the ship wouldnt do much at all so they could be ignored. I dont know what type of ship the cv is supposed to be but if its an essex class it has a hardened deck so it would resist smaller bombs. A good solid hit in the middle of the ship with a big egg would kill it though and it wouldnt take 8k.
-
I am only very average as an attack or bomber pilot and I wouldn't dream of trying to pick off a CV with divebombing.
Recently I figured out how to do some level bombing and when an NME carrier showed up I picked a field a sector away, got a formation of B-17's to 10k, did the bombsight routine and sank the carrier!
Well, It wasn't suicide because I was out of reach of lighter flak and only got shot down on the landing approach :( But If I can do it, anyone can! Maybe it's much tougher when the CV is moving but hey, at my first attempt! Sounds a lot better then to struggle a Ju-87 to 15k with that lovely 1800kg bomb and miss or get shot down. In that plane ANY attack on a CV is suicidal.
-
I've used the Ju-87 with success in sinking the cruiser with the 1,800kg bomb. Most of the time I don't make it but I survive long enough to drop my bomb.
Don't mistake this for a suicide Jabo run, as I have the full intention of making it out but with all the AAA fire from the destroyers, CV and the cruiser itself, the Ju-87 can only take so much damage. Most of the time I have to fight my way though fighter CAP and sometimes I don't make it past that but more often than not, I manage to slip by the fighter cover and score a direct hit on the cruiser. If I do manage to survive my bomb run, my plane is usually pretty shot up to pieces and making it home to land is pretty tough.
This makes me think that what a lot percieve to be suicide Jabo runs on the fleet aren't actually that at all. Sure some do it but I think most of them are flights like mine, with the pilots having the intention of making it out alive but get shot down in the process. Earlier today I was accused of a suicide Jabo run on a cruiser because I flew straight into it after I released my bomb. What the guy accusing me didn't see was that almost immediately after I pickled my bomb and started my pull out, I lost my elevators and couldn't pull out of my dive and flew straight down into the cruiser.
Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by akak
This makes me think that what a lot percieve to be suicide Jabo runs on the fleet aren't actually that at all. Sure some do it but I think most of them are flights like mine, with the pilots having the intention of making it out alive but get shot down in the process. Earlier today I was accused of a suicide Jabo run on a cruiser because I flew straight into it after I released my bomb. What the guy accusing me didn't see was that almost immediately after I pickled my bomb and started my pull out, I lost my elevators and couldn't pull out of my dive and flew straight down into the cruiser.
Ack-Ack
What Ack-Ack said ...
-
The stuka is a poor choice for killing the cruiser because its too slow. You dont need that big egg to kill the cruiser either. Any plane that can carry two 1k eggs that also approaches from 13k should be able to sink the cruiser and either take only one ack hit or none at all. The exception would be the occasion that a five inch gunner hits you. When I do it this way the ack seldom hits me and I dont come below 5k. Its the guys that drop from 1-2k that are suicidal.
-
How about putting up a CAP around the CV group?
Cobra
-
Cobra it wont help. Ive had up to four guys between me and the cv and still hit my target. Have you ever tried to stop a determined la7 from killing a goon? Its the same thing.
-
Okay thx for replys but what do you think of bombs must be 3k over water to arm? could it work your thoughts on this.
Because we all agree a cap or 5 "inch gunners could stop most.
-
May I suggest, ever see in scenarios or in the CT, etc, the little task groups, like 2 or 3 battleships and some cruisers, which can launch lvts and pts. CV's need escort fleets so we can keep the cv safe, and still launch landing attacks. If each port spawned a CV group and a escort group, all would be great. Just need to make sure the escort fleet goes a bit faster than the cv fleet, inorder to escort it correcly.
Fatz
-
Well, how about a "suicide hotline". Whenever somebody launches withing two sectors of a CV with ord they have to talk personally to Yankee or Ronni before getting a "take off clearance".
That way Ronni and Yankee can tell them that all is not lost, the war's not over, that another one will be starting soon anyway and that there's no need for suicide and talk them out of it?
Whaddaya think? Just a thought.
-
AKAK, you of all people should know the P38, Typh, Hog, jsut about anything with 2 1k bombs can sink the CA and live every single time. I think I died one time sinking the CA and that was to a lucky 5 " gun shot. I tend to run into more problems with the CV since it has more protection and I dont drop untill 5k or so.
Booky
-
Originally posted by Booky
AKAK, you of all people should know the P38, Typh, Hog, jsut about anything with 2 1k bombs can sink the CA and live every single time. I think I died one time sinking the CA and that was to a lucky 5 " gun shot. I tend to run into more problems with the CV since it has more protection and I dont drop untill 5k or so.
Booky
I know it can but it's a lot more fun trying to get a Ju-87 in to sink it. A couple of squad mates and I last night sank the Rookie fleet with Ju-87s and it was a blast, actually survived that one but my rear gunner wasn't so lucky.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by rod367th
Okay thx for replys but what do you think of bombs must be 3k over water to arm? could it work your thoughts on this.
Because we all agree a cap or 5 "inch gunners could stop most.
No because there are some that go in low level and then pop up to pickle their bombs on target. You'd eliminate the low level bomb attacks in a quest to punish a few.
Ack-Ack
-
Wish we could skip-bomb. It would make boat hunting seriously fun.
No less suicidal of course, but still a great deal of fun.
Blue
-
The problem here is that the CV's are not being used the way they were historically.
How many times did a fleet park off an enemy base,and send wave after wave to attack it?At the same time,this makes it vulnerable to air base attack from nearby bases.Expecting someone to up from a capped vulched base instead of a nearby base where he can get alt before attacking the cv is silly,and the cv's infinite ability to spawn planes makes it too big a threat to ignore.
Cv's were attacked by OTHER enemy fleets,and rarely were attacked from shore based planes,because for the most part they would be out of range,and if not,very difficult to find.
I'm not sure if this is something that can be solved-our maps are hardly on the scale of the south pacific.
Just my .02
-
I think historically the ack curtain was a great deal more fierce as well but that is something that would only receive more whines if its effectiveness were increased. Does anyone have any hard evidence that level bombers ever sank a carrier? I know a lot tried as Ive seen pictures of circling ships but the bomb hits appeared to be way off and ineffective as if this were a lot more difficult than it is in this game.
-
Originally posted by Cobra
How about putting up a CAP around the CV group?
Cobra
This would work if people would ever learn the CAP NEVER works at the defended location. You can park 15 planes at 20k over a CV and I promise you I'll get my egg through. Put those planes a sector away along most likely avenues of approach and most likely I'll never get visual on the CV.
....was the same in Air Warrior and I'll bet in Warbirds too. More people than not have some goofy idea that defense is limited to the airspace immediately over the area being defended.
-
Originally posted by GPreddy
I think historically the ack curtain was a great deal more fierce as well but that is something that would only receive more whines if its effectiveness were increased. Does anyone have any hard evidence that level bombers ever sank a carrier? I know a lot tried as Ive seen pictures of circling ships but the bomb hits appeared to be way off and ineffective as if this were a lot more difficult than it is in this game.
I thought all the Japanese carriers were sunk by either dive/torpedo bombers and/or submarines or other surface ships. Did any level bomber sink any type of capital ship (battleships and cruisers included)?
ack-ack
-
Hi,
not really, in early ww2 all airforces figured that it's nearly impossible to hit a moving ship with a levelbomber.
At flank speed ships are faster than most imagine and the least bearing change was enough to evade a bomb coming down from above 12kft.
The only thing I remember was the sinking of 2 german destroyers passing through a mine barrier by He111s due to wrong friend/foe identification.
But this is a really difficult example, because the facts are totally confusing, if the bombs hit, and both destroyers ran into the mine barrier and were sunk by mines, or if it were the bombs which sunk them. I'm not sure if it was ever clarified what really happened. The Luftwaffe never admitted they made a mistake, and the Kriegsmarine had no proof it were He111s.
:D
But anyway, destroyers aren't armored ships, and I doubt same had happened to a cruiser, or if the destroyers had the ability to evade.
For all what I know the only level bombing with a good result was on ships in port. (German fleet at Brest, or Tirpitz at Tromsöe for example).
-
Now don't flame me too hard for using logic, reason and common sense now....but if you defend your CVs FROM the inbound cons, you won't have the suicide jabo problem.
Ive used P51s at 15k to dive in on CVs, drop, pull out and scoot home. There are a few folks who are DEADLY in the 5" guns...I've been blown to bits at 15k just getting near the fleet.
I just find it incredibly lame someone feels we need to weaken bombs because their side does not adequately protect their fleet. The fault of a sunken fleet lies in the lack of defense, not how unfair it is that the bad guys' bombs hit.
-
Yes Gpreddy RAF coastal bombed 498 ships before d-day. Some where sunk using 12,030lb big boy. The tirpitz was a 42,000 ton battle ship. RAF Costal used 22,ooolbders 12k 8k 4k 19k2000's to sink ships. During the retreat from dunkirk Germanies JU88's drop over 41,000 tons on allied ships trying to ferry briyish home.
1941 alone coastal command sank 185 ships. Also sank Submaries with Sunderlands too.
-
LMAO I couldn't agree with you more.
It never ceases to amaze me how people insist on defending a base by fighting only over the base. Now this is fine if your base is close to being captured and your goonhunting then yea. it makes sense to fly over your own base.
But it seems to me the best way to defend your base is to not let the enemy planes get there to begin with. This can only be accomplished two ways.
1- intercepting the planes enroute well before they get to your base or in attacking that base which the attacking hordes are coming from. the latter being more effective.
I know when I set out to hit a base or CV 98% of the battle is getting to the base being attacked. And if I get there...Well my success rate is about 98% percent of hitting what I came to hit.
After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that many people think that any dive bombing attack on a CV is an intentional suicide run. With the exeption on level bombers trying to dive-bomb. I highly doubt it. I think most people would prefer to survive the run even if they dont hit the CV. Few do though because of the horrific accuracy of the CV ack.
I suppose the folks that whine about this would prefer if the Cv was unsinkable. LOL after all how were most sunk from the air but by Dive attacks? Outside of the diving bombruns by level bombers I dont see a single style of attack on a CV as being anything less then legit. And that can be fixed by simply making it so bombs cant be dropped from level bombers cept by the bombadier and have the plane go on autolevel when in that pos.
Funny how you see two arguments one on the demand for historical accuracy, yet many of the same voices complain when this is followed. such as suicide attacks. Doesnt ANYONE remember Kamakazies?
Now if they REALLY want accuracy. they would limit the amount of planes that can up from a CV or any other base for that matter at any one time. they would also make it so the support ships could be taken out with guns.
But back to suicide attacks. Dont you think that any country would do anything, including asking their pilots to commit suicide in trying to stop wave after wave or endless hordes of enemies from attacking them?
heh want to keep your CV from being sunk? The solution is simple. Protect it better. AWAY from the CV. After all, they cant verywell suicide it if they cant get near it can they?
naaa but ya cant do that either can ya? That might take you away from your billion man low alt furball and vulch time huh? It would be totally unthinkable to set up an effective CV cap while others get to furball,pork and vulch a base.which would be a"historically accurate" stratagy for keeping CVs from getting sunk.
Hey HTC and crew can only carry the accuracy so far. you/we all haveto provide the rest
Same thing goes with this as as with the HO whines. If you aint gonna do what it takes to prevent these things yourself. Dont complain when it happens
Drediock
Originally posted by Tumor
This would work if people would ever learn the CAP NEVER works at the defended location. You can park 15 planes at 20k over a CV and I promise you I'll get my egg through. Put those planes a sector away along most likely avenues of approach and most likely I'll never get visual on the CV.
....was the same in Air Warrior and I'll bet in Warbirds too. More people than not have some goofy idea that defense is limited to the airspace immediately over the area being defended.
-
Alf,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. If you want the CV to stay alive...be tactically sound with it. Dont park it off the beach!
With that being said I managed to kill a CV the other day when it decided to get in the manned ack range at our port. Its amazing how easily it will die!
-
what if you could destroy guns on the ship instead of the whole ship?
and it would be cool if we really could use the elevators and lower-dek of the CV.
so, what's the best way to sink a ship with a torp. without getting killed?
I never did that......
frank