Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on January 04, 2002, 12:25:00 PM
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Put Grunherz and Urchin in a 190. Put Rude and Yeager in a P51D. Let them go at it. Who’s gonna win 2 out of 3? Leviathn in a spit against Rammjagr in a 109. Vulcan in a Typhoon against Kbman in an La7. Drex in a P47 against anyone in anything? Who’s gonna win 2 out of 3? All the aircraft stats just went out the window didn’t they? You may have an opinion but you’re not really certain. Is the aircraft type going to make a difference? I bet not.
Some say perk the SpitIX. Why? Just go down the list gentlemen. You will eventually be at the bottom and none left to perk. We will always have new folks. At least I hope we do. It is inevitable that most new people will gravitate to a realatively easy plane to fly. How many times have we seen a newbie ask on ch.1 what he/she should fly and they are told, spit, n1k or la7?
Furthermore, I submit that if you are killed in a 190D9 by a SpitIX, then you're a doofus. Should never happen.
Leave the SpitIX, the N1K and La7 alone. Its not the plane, it’s the pilot.
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some planes are starting with about a 5% or so inherent advantage over others but other than that it is all pilot and circustance. Mostly, if you die a lot then you are in the wrong plane for your "style"..
Some guys of course can make any plane work for them.
lazs
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lmao, it doesnt matter who is flying what, they all get me. hehe
BeachS
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Grunherz and Urchin in a 190. Put Rude and Yeager in a P51D. Let them go at it. Who’s gonna win 2 out of 3?
Tough one, if by 190 you mean a D9 then I'd say Grunherz and Urchin, however the superior stall-ability of the P51 could give a siginificant advantage to the Allied team especially early in the post-merge situation. However, this can be countered easily with certain techniques.
Leviathn in a spit against Rammjagr in a 109
Tough one.
Vulcan in a Typhoon against Kbman in an La7
The La7 for sure, only thing the Typhoon has is max speed.
Drex in a P47 against anyone in anything? Who’s gonna win 2 out of 3?
The anyone in anything, probably...
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Counter points Nath. (BTW, glad you're back).
Tough one, if by 190 you mean a D9 then I'd say Grunherz and Urchin, however the superior stall-ability of the P51 could give a siginificant advantage to the Allied team especially early in the post-merge situation. However, this can be countered easily with certain techniques.
You strengthened my position with the last sentence.
Tough one.
Agreed.
The La7 for sure, only thing the Typhoon has is max speed.
Vulcan in a Typhoon against 1 month newbie in an La7. Who will win 2 out of 3?
The anyone in anything, probably...
I said Drex, not lazs, lol.
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Hmmmmm, Apache in an LA7, Zippatuh in an LA7, who wins 2 out a 3?
Been a few months, not sure if I remember your flying style, I’ll put the money on me though :D.
Zippatuh
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Drex is pretty good, but the P47 sucks.
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P47 any place, any time.
You just dont know how to fly a P47 correctly to its advatages Nath[BDP]. So give the P47 a try, get to 25K feet and lets see if this changes you're mind.
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Drex and Frenchy are the only two P-47 pilots that I have struggled with 1 vs. 1. It is definitely the pilot in those cases, because the P-47 ain't that good IMHO.
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I'm well aware of the P47's strengths and weaknesses, as I am also well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of all the aircraft in AH. Any plane can be successfull by flying at high altitude and diving down to get kills, 25k is not the AH norm, fortunatly--so, the P47 is limited to low alt fights and this is where my opinion is in reference to.
Figuratively speaking, the P47 is outmatched by 95% of the aircraft in AH at med-low alts. I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to duel a P47 at 25k+ unless they are in another aircraft optimized for high altitude fights and if the opponent chooses another aircraft that is suited for that evironment, chances are that aircraft will also outmatch the P47 in that environment.
G10, Ta 152, Me 262, F4U-4, D9(close).
I'd take an A8 for tradition though. ;)
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Nath[BDP] ]
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Originally posted by Zippatuh:
Hmmmmm, Apache in an LA7, Zippatuh in an LA7, who wins 2 out a 3?
Been a few months, not sure if I remember your flying style, I’ll put the money on me though :D.
Zippatuh
Go back to sleep zip. hehe
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Superpilot (drex/fester) in their rides vs avg. skill pilot in spit/la7/n1k MAY result in the higher skilled pilot winning, but you cannot deny that the spit/la7/n1k do give the avg pilot a "boost".
Heck, put drex or fester in a spitIX or la7 and see if they ever get shot down ;) :D
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Spitfire MkV: Great Turner, great diver (as it was in real life- wasn't it the IX that got to Mach .92 in a dive?).
Spitfire MkIX: Decent top speed, mediocre acceleration, great turning (mediocre when compared to V, and great diver.
La7: Very Mediocre turner, very fast, doesn't slow down as quickly in a turn and excellent acceleration. 3 cannon option makes it a newbie's choice.
In every game I've been in, newbies gravitate to the Spits. Hell, I did in WarBirds because it was my first time online. Shortly after I got used to the flight model (most advanced at the time), I started to really like the German aircraft.
Sure, some planes are easier to give you angles on the plane you are fighting against... but you allowed them to use their plane's strengths against your plane's weaknesses.
A perfect example of why it's the pilot, not the plane.
-SW
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Some pilots are better than others, but all planes are equal? Right.
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All I ever see Fester doing is BnZing, anyone can not get shot down flying like that.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Nath[BDP] ]
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Originally posted by Tac:
Superpilot (drex/fester) in their rides vs avg. skill pilot in spit/la7/n1k MAY result in the higher skilled pilot winning, but you cannot deny that the spit/la7/n1k do give the avg pilot a "boost".
Heck, put drex or fester in a spitIX or la7 and see if they ever get shot down ;) :D
What about the spit gives a "boost" against a properly flown P38 or an La7 against a properly flown 190D9. I don't see it. Furthermore, why is a 190D9 even fighting an La7? What is it doing down there? Why would anyone in their right mind turn fight a spit in a P38?
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The better the pilot, the less the plane matters. The worse the pilot... the more the plane matters. Its pretty simple actually.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by popeye:
Some pilots are better than others, but all planes are equal? Right.
I'm assuming this is directed at me. I'm trying to see where you got that from. For the life of me I can't figure out how out of all I said, you got "the planes are equal".
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The better the pilot, the less the plane matters. The worse the pilot... the more the plane matters. Its pretty simple actually.
AKDejaVu
Darn, wish I had said that.
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"DA CAPS IS DA HAPS"
-lol
oh yeah, and:
"The better the pilot, the less the plane matters. The worse the pilot... the more the plane matters. Its pretty simple actually.
AKDejaVu"
you can't put it much clearer than that.
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IMO the only thing P51 has over P47 is its ability to run. P47 can run too, but it's level speed is way more limited and you can stretch it only for so long.
I'd turnfight a pony in a jug anyday.
It's underrated.
I'm not considered as one of the most skilled pilots in main and still I managed a 121/14 k/d in p47-d30.
It's numbers are so low because newbies try to furball in it.
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I have to agree with DejaVu on that statement. I have seen more pilots get betterby flying planes that required you to learn how to get the kill. Than I have by seeing people that fly planes that don't force you to learn how to get the kill.
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The better the pilot, the less the plane matters. The worse the pilot... the more the plane matters. Its pretty simple actually.
AKDejaVu
Yup, that is a great quote candidate. A new paradigm, we now have a sliding scale rather than the totalitarian absolutism of "either/or". :D
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The better the pilot, the less the plane matters. The worse the pilot... the more the plane matters. Its pretty simple actually.
AKDejaVu
while this is true to an extent, the good pilots are the ones who dont fly la7s/niks/spits. or at least have not always flown them and learned by flying something else. if these are the only planes you ever fly, you are almost by definition going to get you bellybutton handed to you in a same plane duel with a pilot who flies a "more difficult" (p38/p47/190) aircraft. there may be exceptions, but my wager is that if all la7 pilots (fly la7 more than 50% of time) were put up against the same number of "difficult plane" pilots (lets say p38 pilots) in a plane that neither favored (lets say the ki-61) that the p38 pilots would win a majority of the time.
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I absolutely 100% agree with Deja's statement.
It is really hard to say where the line between pilot and plane skill begins/ends (or indeed if there even is a line). For example, Frenchy in a P47 is a terrible sight to behold (unless you are his wingman, then it is pretty damn neat). However, every time I've fought him when he was NOT in a P-47 I think I've won. (I think, I could be wrong here). He can fling that plane around like nobody I've ever seen though.
In some cases I think the plane makes the difference though. For instance, when you are in a situation where your plane does NOTHING better than the plane you are fighting, your only solution is to not 'fight' at all. This strategy was used historically, and successfully, by F4F pilots early in the Pacific War. The Zero was better at EVERYTHING (yea, it was even faster, believe it or not).
Same sort of thing in AH, if I am in a G10 or a D9, I just HATE seeing La-7s. In the earlier models I don't hate seeing them as much, because at least the early models can turn somewhat better (well, not the 190s). But in AH, the La-7 does everything better than a G10. You can't turn, you can't dive, you can't climb, and you can't run. So I'd say if you take a pilot that I could kill in a 109 (if we were both flying G-10s), and put him in an La-7, you just drastically increased his chances of winning the fight.
But in most cases I agree, it is definately the pilot, and not the plane.
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wont comment on all these points, but those that say teh P-47 is inferior ...or just sux, well you are wrong :) It is a fine AC in AH.
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Yes, it is a fine airplane in AH.. however, against a well-flown 109, 190, Yak, La7, P51, or (probably) P-38, it is definately at a disadvantage.
That is a plane where a good pilot can turn it into a great plane, but an average pilot turns it into a rather poor plane.
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The P47 Rocks. because
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One word
Tiffy :cool:
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I think the pilot decides 75% of the fight, the plane the remaining 25%. But unfortunately, the better the plane is the less the pilot contributes to the equation, until the balance becomes 50%-50% chance.
Case: vet in c202 vs newbie in n1k (and say there is no ground to make the n1k auger in). Its a 50-50 chance right there.
Put vet in la5 and newbie in la7 and its like 90%-10% in favor of vet (if it was la5 vs la5, the newbie would have 1% chance)
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The P47 is great.
Actually the F4F easily outdove the zero and it took much much more damage. The ability to dive away is 100X more important in RL than we have even in AH.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]
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It's the pilot, not the plane
Yestarday i was talking with ammo about great new N1k2 drivers alweays going in to dog fight with my Spit V...
Besides to be a good pilot u got to know your plane and its weakness, to avoid dengerouse situacion for u and your plane.
If u are well propered u can kill anything in any plane (key is luck, good eye and skills)
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The pilot is definitely the most important of the host of factors that determine who will win any given air to air engagement. A great fighter plane can of course sometimes make good pilots out of mediocre ones and great pilots out of good ones, but given a choice between betting on an inferior pilot in a superior plane or a superior pilot in a lesser plane, I will back the odds of the superior pilot every time.
I just read where an Air Force general said recently, (speaking of russian made aircraft) "Our pilots in their planes would beat their pilots in our planes every time." This has been proven throughout history.
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Pilot > x > Plane
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This ”it’s the pilot, not the plane” crap always cracks me up. Of course, some pilots are/were better than others, but there is a limit to how far this mantra can be taken.
If success were purely attributable to pilot skill, then why in the world have we bothered to develop bigger, faster, and better armed planes since WW2? Why not simply improve training as to turn out a crop of invincible superace pilots? Because P47s would not be much use against Russian MiGs, and Yaks would not be much use against F14 Tomcats. That’s why.
Of course, pilot skill plays a part. But for ***** sake let’s cut this fighter ace adulation crap which suggests that our hero can win any fight in his chosen plane against any other plane and against all odds. See my screenshot in the Drex Sux thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=013177) to see what happens when an ace takes on 2xFw190 working together. (Clue: it was a nice drag by –xela- :D)
[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Uncle Scrmbl ]
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Ive taken on up to 11 planes one time and killed them all, they were even vulching me and the field ack was down. I did this in a Niki but I doubt there are more than a handful of pilots in AH who could do it, Niki or no Niki. The Niki helped I guess, but I did the killing.
Ive survived many low alt distadvantage fights in my Bf109G6 against LA7s, Nikis and Spits and whatever uber planes. But those pilots were much poorer in experience and skill than I was.
And your Mig29 vs P47 thing is a ridicuous argument the airplanes arent even in the world of flying. You know thats a ridiculous argument.
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Originally posted by Uncle Scrmbl:
This ”it’s the pilot, not the plane” crap always cracks me up. Of course, some pilots are/were better than others, but there is a limit to how far this mantra can be taken.
If success were purely attributable to pilot skill, then why in the world have we bothered to develop bigger, faster, and better armed planes since WW2? Why not simply improve training as to turn out a crop of invincible superace pilots? Because P47s would not be much use against Russian MiGs, and Yaks would not be much use against F14 Tomcats. That’s why.
Cuz great pilots are born, not trained. :)
curly
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Hmmm what is the purpose of this discussion? What could be the best solution if so called good pilots gets pissed of if some average pilot shoots him down? :D
Maybe we should have only 1 planetype so all could be happy.
I think Im average pilot and I agree that La7 and Spit9 is best choices for me. BUT I used to fly La7 before I took a spit and if I try La7 now, it is totally useless for me. If you learn 1 plane good, it is hard to take different plane and be as good with it.
I think if I'd start to fly 190D and keep practising with it 2-3 months I'd be as good with it as Im with spit now. Now Im very easy target with 190D and all I can do with it is RUN!! :D
I would put dweebplane list also tiffie. I do quite well also that.. :p
Ive been in AH about 4 months now and before that I had no experience of any combat sims. I used to try Janes WWII couple of times offline, thats all. So I must be natural born spitdweeb! ;)
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Not true - if ur a good pilot it doesn`t count what plane ur flying becouse ur able to pic best tactiksc to the plane that ur in...
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Jeez, Hitech get a new account? :D :eek: ;)
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Ammo Amen brother :D