Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on January 02, 2003, 03:11:18 AM
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These &¤#&/#% never cease to amaze me.
Father given 6 months for stabbing daughter 25 times
AMMAN — A 65-year-old father walked out of Criminal Court a free man on Tuesday after receiving six months in prison for killing his teenage daughter in Hiteen refugee camp in April 2002.
The court invoked Article 98 of the Jordanian Penal Code, reducing Hussein Ahmad's charge because he killed his daughter in a “fit of rage.”
Link (http://www.jordantimes.com/wed/homenews/homenews4.htm)
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Seems more like an indictment of the Jordanian state judicial system, to me. This thread should be renamed 'Jordanian Justice'.
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Dowding no.
The reason he killed her was because he thought she was sleeping around, note the virginity test in quted article. Generally speaking in the mid-east muslim this kind of murder very common and accepted. Kinda like witch burning was generally to christians in Europe - some 500 years ago. It's ok though islam is right on track, they are just over 500-600 years younger than christianity so they are at that stage.
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The separation of church and State should always be something to strive towards.
This is still an indictment of Jordanian justice. There is no mention of Islam. Islam does noes not sanction the murder of offspring for disobedience.
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Yea just like it doesnt sanction the terrorists... Sorry just like christianity failed a few centuries ago so is Islam - only now they have apologists.
Believe it or not I'd be the first to defend them as I grew up around muslims in my youth and my my best friend ever, we were like brothers practically, was a muslim and i know they are good people or bad just like anyone. However there is a particular cancer upon that religion in the past 40 years and they must be heald accountable to rid themselves of it. Aplogists like you wont help.
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I see the vitriol is still ever present.
Bad things are done in the name of every major religion. That doesn't make religion bad by association.
This is not an example of Islamic justice - at worst it's 'justice' in the name of Islam. And that is in incorrect since Jordan is a secular country, as far as I know.
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Of cource this is an example of Moslem justice. If you want Dowding, I can pull similar examples from other nations whose state religion is Islam, and whose legal system is Islamic.
Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Syria...you just let me know and I'll drag up a couple of similar cases.
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oh come on guy, dowding's not an apologist, he's just trying to be reasonable.
just because you don't grab your torch and pitchfork the second someone yells 'frankenstein' doesn't make you a sympathizer. or maybe it does- heil usa!- down with the moslems! sheesh don't put me on your list of infidels .....
this isn't a "moslem", issue it's a legal shortcoming just like we have here in jesus' own US of A. i can't believe what a herd this bbs is sometimes- you can post something like "all filthy moslems must die" and it's cool but if you have an opinion that actually takes some balls you get deleted or banned.
if i posted some thread about some trigger happy israelis shooting some palestinian school kids for looking at them the wrong way in some occupied west bank town and called it "jewish madness" or generalized about any race, creed or religion at all i'd either see the post deleted, get a slew of nasty emails or at the very least have to endure a giant line of righteous patriots queuing up to make the same tired, inevitable nazi comparisons and so on.
take one case from one country and make it an example of how awful moslems are and you're a hero though. don't dare dissent or you are right there with johnny taliban. come one lemme hear you moooooooooo for me cows...............mooooooooo oooooooooo
you really are a hypocritical lot sometimes.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Of cource this is an example of Moslem justice. If you want Dowding, I can pull similar examples from other nations whose state religion is Islam, and whose legal system is Islamic.
Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Syria...you just let me know and I'll drag up a couple of similar cases.
So, only Islamic states give out ridicolous sentences?
Tronsky
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Jordan is a secular Islamic country and has been for a long time. You can't compare it to Saudi Arabia et al. Jordanian women do not have to wear the traditional Islamic headress, for instance. Your title and stipulation is erroneous.
Strict Islamic law as used in Middle East is used as a tool for the repression of dissent. The people who apply particularly brutal punishment do so on the basis of their own interpretation of religious text, for their own agenda. I'm not going to concede an old book is responsible for these excesses, and I'm certainly not going to make sweeping generalisations about a religion based on the actions of the law-making elite.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
So, only Islamic states give out ridicolous sentences?
Tronsky
How many western states condemn women to be stoned to death?
How many western states cut the sentence for "honorary murders" to 2-3 months in jail? (where the father of a girl murders the girl to save the honour of the family, usually the girl has lost her virginity before marriage, or she has a boyfriend the family doesnt approve of, or she refuses to marry the one her family choses for her)
How many western states allow the mother to live while she is breastfeeding her child, and execute her after the child can eat on its own? (if the child is the result of the mother cheating on her husband for example)
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South Korea wants to try 2 US servicemen, who killed a couple of 14 year old girls, for negligent driving but cannot.
It would seem some Western states are quite able and willing to give protection to a chosen few.
But it's just so chic to bash the muslims at any chance lately.....
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Hortlund
How many western states cut the sentence for "honorary murders" to 2-3 months in jail?
I got the impression that the sentence was reduced because of the father 'acting in a fit of rage', not because of the killing being labeled honorary by the court. And you don't believe that courts in the West take such circumstances into account? There are lots of cases where someone goes totally berserk and commits some crime and the judge does reduce the sentence because of him/her being out of self-control at that point. Mmmm, maybe the Jordanians aren't so different after all, that must come as a shock to you, and of course especially to grunherz who prowls the BBs day and night for threads to vent his stupidity-born muslim-hatred...
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Originally posted by -tronski-
South Korea wants to try 2 US servicemen, who killed a couple of 14 year old girls, for negligent driving but cannot.
It would seem some Western states are quite able and willing to give protection to a chosen few.
But it's just so chic to bash the muslims at any chance lately.....
Tronsky
Hmm...lets see... a nation condemns a woman to execution by stoning because she was allegedly having an affair (testimony of husband enough evidence, the woman need not be heard in the trial at all)...yes, that sounds just about the same as a nation not being able to prosecute someone due to a treaty with another nation. (my bet is those soldiers will be dealt with by the US justice system instead).
You know, we are not able to prosecute foregin diplomats either...that should be roughly the same thing as letting a dad stab his daughter 25 times because she was talking back to him...or?
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Originally posted by Thud
I got the impression that the sentence was reduced because of the father 'acting in a fit of rage', not because of the killing being labeled honorary by the court. And you don't believe that courts in the West take such circumstances into account? There are lots of cases where someone goes totally berserk and commits some crime and the judge does reduce the sentence because of him/her being out of self-control at that point. Mmmm, maybe the Jordanians aren't so different after all, that must come as a shock to you, and of course especially to grunherz who prowls the BBs day and night for threads to vent his stupidity-born muslim-hatred...
LOL ...I work in a court m8, and no, there is no such thing as "well, the murderer was mighty upset, so lets cut the sentence in half."
This Jordanian sentence is a pretty good example of how a honorary murder is treated in those countries. The murderer is as good as always sent to jail. Normally between 3 months and 1 year. It is very seldom you see the court say something like "it was an honorary murder" rather they write stuff like "he was severely provoked" (daughter talking back to him) or "when he committed the crime he was in deep shock, and didnt really know what he did" (because daugher had lost virginity before marriage).
The way it works in civilized countries is that the frame of mind of the bad guy is often how you draw the line between Murder 1 and Murder 2
(Dont know the exact translation into english here, but roughly, murder 1 is when the murderer spent some time planning the murder, it was deliberate, planned.
Murder 2 on the other hand is when the murder was impulsive, without any deliberate planning etc, normally murder 2 is what happens when two guys get into a fight and one of them gets a hold of an axe or something. Or if two alcoholists are drinking together and one of them decides to kill the other one so he can have the last bottle of booze. Examples of murder 1 on the other hand is when some guy decides it is better to murder his wife rather than divorce her so he strangles her in her sleep. Or if a rapists decide he doesnt want to leave any witnessess behind)
Why are you defending these guys btw?
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Oh, and one of the reasons I find all this so horribly #*%# sick, disgusting and offensive is not only because they are killing off their own women in medieval fashion, it is also because this behavior is starting to spread to our nations. Among the immigrants from those countries that is.
In Sweden alone we have had 4-5 "honorary murders" in the last year or so. And that is only the ones we know about, the ones that happened "in country", there are lots of girls who go home to their old countries on holliday and never return.
Typical scenario is something along the lines of "girl falls in love with Swedish guy, family of girl disaproves, girl realizes she has the right to do whatever she wants because she is living in a civilized country so girl tells family to mind their own business and moves out, father/uncle/brother of girl kills girl."
Or "girl starts to dress like western girls, family of girl disaproves, girl tells family to back off because she can dress any way she wants, father/uncle/brother of girl kills girl."
I think we had 5 cases like that last year. Young girls aged 16-22, all murdered by dad/brother/uncle. All because they wanted to live a normal life.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Oh, and one of the reasons I find all this so horribly #*%# sick, disgusting and offensive is not only because they are killing off their own women in medieval fashion, it is also because this behavior is starting to spread to our nations. Among the immigrants from those countries that is.
In Sweden alone we have had 4-5 "honorary murders" in the last year or so. And that is only the ones we know about, the ones that happened "in country", there are lots of girls who go home to their old countries on holliday and never return.
I find it utterly amusing that people like you raise hell when hearing about some immigrant killing their daughter because he feels his honor has been compromised, but when these things happen in a 'normal: white, christian' family noone really cares. How often does it happen that a family is massacred by one of its members because of some relational problem?
The answer is very often. The latter are far more common but are found at page 18 of the newspaper under a header 'family-tragedy'. And as you work in a court you probably heard at one time or another that in most western countries domestic violence is the cause behind the majority of murders and it has been so far before the immigrants you're referring to came into the western world in numbers.
It's the usual thing: people like you are rightfully enraged by crimes, but accidently you're more enraged when it's committed by a muslem, immigrant or any other subject of your unfounded prejudices and eventually you succeed in labeling the whole thing as an excuse to send them all back.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Hmm...lets see... a nation condemns a woman to execution by stoning because she was allegedly having an affair (testimony of husband enough evidence, the woman need not be heard in the trial at all)...yes, that sounds just about the same as a nation not being able to prosecute someone due to a treaty with another nation. (my bet is those soldiers will be dealt with by the US justice system instead).
You know, we are not able to prosecute foregin diplomats either...that should be roughly the same thing as letting a dad stab his daughter 25 times because she was talking back to him...or?
A nation condemns a woman? You mean a court finds a women guilty?
For someone supposedly involved in the legal system, you seem awfully surprised to find out of the inequities of legal systems, more so wholeheartedly eager to bomblast a slice of your swedish society.
So how many people get seemlingly light sentences for crimes of passion in Sweden?
It seems an unheard of event.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
A nation condemns a woman? You mean a court finds a women guilty?
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I thought that was what I said.
For someone supposedly involved in the legal system, you seem awfully surprised to find out of the inequities of legal systems, more so wholeheartedly eager to bomblast a slice of your swedish society.
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I dont understand what you mean here.
So how many people get seemlingly light sentences for crimes of passion in Sweden?
It seems an unheard of event.
Tronsky
Sweden is not a good example since everybody gets light sentences here. But I cannot really think of one example where a person found guilty of murder had his sentence reduced because he was angry, sad, upset, displeased or whatever. The only situation that would be even remotely close is when someone commits a crime as a revenge. Person A kills person B because A just found out that B had raped A:s wife...in cases like that it has happened that the court lowered the sentence for person A...but not by that much...maybe from 10 years to 7 years or something similar to that.
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Originally posted by Thud
I find it utterly amusing that people like you raise hell when hearing about some immigrant killing their daughter because he feels his honor has been compromised, but when these things happen in a 'normal: white, christian' family noone really cares. How often does it happen that a family is massacred by one of its members because of some relational problem?
The answer is very often. The latter are far more common but are found at page 18 of the newspaper under a header 'family-tragedy'. And as you work in a court you probably heard at one time or another that in most western countries domestic violence is the cause behind the majority of murders and it has been so far before the immigrants you're referring to came into the western world in numbers.
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No, these things doenst happen very often or even often in "normal" families. A random Swedish family father doesnt butcher his daughter because she wants to marry some guy, even if that guy would be a slimeball, nor would he put a bullet in her head if she lost her virginity before marriage. If you fail to see that these honorary murders are cultural related, it is only because you are desperately trying to look the other way. Or you may simply have reached another level of PC:ness...you have reached the state of denial.
Those family tragedys you are talking about happens yes, they are more uncommon then you might want to realize though, and they have nothing to do with the topic at hand right now.
It's the usual thing: people like you are rightfully enraged by crimes, but accidently you're more enraged when it's committed by a muslem, immigrant or any other subject of your unfounded prejudices and eventually you succeed in labeling the whole thing as an excuse to send them all back.
You seem to know an awful lot about me and why I hate criminals like that dad. Perhaps you could tell me more about my "unfounded prejudices"...more exactly what are my prejudices, and in what way are they unfounded?
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strange how some stand beside Islam with its faults while crucifying Christians at every opportunity..
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Of cource this is an example of Moslem justice. If you want Dowding, I can pull similar examples from other nations whose state religion is Islam, and whose legal system is Islamic.
Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Syria...you just let me know and I'll drag up a couple of similar cases.
How about searching for similar examples from India. Perhaps it is not the religion but the culture?
How about this example here in the US?
I remember this one from the early eighties.
http://www.politicalcircus.com/archive/article_799.shtml (http://www.politicalcircus.com/archive/article_799.shtml)
Vincent Chin's slaying came to symbolize anti-Asian violence nationally and internationally. His death took place in the climate of a protracted national anti-Japanese and anti-Asian hysteria. In the moments before the fatal attack, witnesses overheard Ronald Ebens' say to Vincent, "It's because of you motherf*ckers that we're out of work." After Wayne County Judge Charles Kaufman sentenced the confessed killers to only three years' probation and fines for their vicious bludgeoning attack on Chin, a civil rights movement of Asian Americans was born, led by Detroit-based American Citizens for Justice, with Mrs. Lily Chin's active involvement. Her legacy, and her son's, was recorded in the Academy-award nominated documentary film, "Who Killed Vincent Chin?," which has been viewed by millions of Americans.
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I know, lets just kill ALL the muslims and anyone that even looks like a muslim so we can be sure and get that fraction of possible terrorists :rolleyes:
After that group is eliminated, what other groups are we going to go after?
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Originally posted by Eagler
strange how some stand beside Islam with its faults while crucifying Christians at every opportunity..
...and strange how some stand beside Christianity with its faults while crucifying Muslims at every opportunity :rolleyes:
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Let us not forget how in China how daughters were killed or abandoned because they wanted a son.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
How about searching for similar examples from India. Perhaps it is not the religion but the culture?
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India and Jordan have the same culture? Fascinating. OR maybe there are Indian moslems...who knows...
How about this example here in the US? [SNIP]
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Irellevant because it is a completely different discussion.
You are talking about a (supposedly) racist judge/jury. Well, if you want to go down that alley, you should jump back to the 50s and search in the southern states, you might have more luck coming up with jucier cases then.
I know, lets just kill ALL the muslims and anyone that even looks like a muslim so we can be sure and get that fraction of possible terrorists :rolleyes:
After that group is eliminated, what other groups are we going to go after?
Answering these insane ramblings will only get me into trouble with Skuzzy. Lets just say that I fail to understand what this has got to do with the current topic and leave it at that.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
India and Jordan have the same culture? Fascinating. OR maybe there are Indian moslems...who knows...
[/b]
Irellevant because it is a completely different discussion.
You are talking about a (supposedly) racist judge/jury. Well, if you want to go down that alley, you should jump back to the 50s and search in the southern states, you might have more luck coming up with jucier cases then.
Answering these insane ramblings will only get me into trouble with Skuzzy. Lets just say that I fail to understand what this has got to do with the current topic and leave it at that. [/B]
In India could it not be some Hindus that are doing it?
Sorry Hort,
Thought you were talking about injustices practiced in other countries. I was adding some examples. I chose the Vincent Chen case because it was headline news from my memory.
Perhaps you can be a bit more clear what your points are in this thread ;)
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I think Hortlund's point is that if horrible injustices happen in countries whose major religion is Islam, it is QED that Islam is a bad religion and its followers are barbarians.
He conveniently overlooks the injustices suffered by Muslims at the hand of Hindus in India or by Palestinian civilians at the hands of Israelis.
BTW, Hortlund. I remember we once discussed how Christian clergy had never had any involvement in terrorist action (as opposed to your view regarding Islamic religious leaders) - I gave the example of the Catholic priest who was the suspected leader of an IRA cell that killed protestant civilians in a bomb in the 1970s. You dismissed the case as hearsay.
Well, whattaya know. They just reinvestigated the matter and they conclude that a Catholic priest WAS the head of the cell and he did mastermind the attack which left 8 people dead. Fancy that! Clergy from the Holiest of holies murdering innocent women and children only 30 years ago! Oh, the injustice! Where are your sweeping generalisations now?
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dont forget the dude in california who got life (virtual death sentence) for stealing a slice of pizza...under islamic law he'd have just lost a hand, no (unless maybe is was peperoni)?
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Only 10 years for murder in Sweden?
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Originally posted by whgates3
dont forget the dude in california who got life (virtual death sentence) for stealing a slice of pizza...under islamic law he'd have just lost a hand, no (unless maybe is was peperoni)?
I believe that was his "third strike". You will probably find that strikes one and two would have rendered it impossible to steal that slice of pizza if he was in an Islamic country...he wouldn't have been able to pick it up without his hands.
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ja, assuming 1 & 2 were petty theft...still, this was a clear case of the punishment being far out of line w/ the crime, just as 3strikes laws are clearly far out of line w/ the constitutional double jeopardy rule
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Originally posted by Toad
Only 10 years for murder in Sweden?
10 to life
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what happened to the guy that stabbed olaf palmer?
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Originally posted by -tronski-
South Korea wants to try 2 US servicemen, who killed a couple of 14 year old girls, for negligent driving but cannot.
It would seem some Western states are quite able and willing to give protection to a chosen few.
But it's just so chic to bash the muslims at any chance lately.....
Tronsky
Bad example. The US has a Status Of Forces Agreeement (SOFA) with South Korea that allow the US to decide who tries it's soldiers. Are you implying that the US won't try them fairly? If so, what's your evidence?
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You liberals do realize that what Islam has against America is largely you, right?
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Originally posted by whgates3
what happened to the guy that stabbed olaf palmer?
They never caught him. Whoever he was he shot Palme though. The police believe they got the right guy, and he was convicted in a lower court, but a higher court overturned that one and set him free. The case never went to the surpreme court.
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The original post is an example of Arab justice, not Islamic justice. Here is an example of what can happen under Islamic law:
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A post-mortem, however, showed the girl was still a virgin.
"The motive behind the killing was to defend my honor, fame, and dignity," the paper quoted the father as saying.
Rape often goes unreported in Iran where the conservative society sees it as bringing shame on the victim and family.
Local people have called for the man, who has been arrested, to be hanged, but under Iran's Islamic law only the father of the victim has the right to demand the death sentence.
The paper said the father, named as Khazir, has three wives.>>>
It seems like if the daughter had actually been raped, her father would have been justified in killing her under Islamic law. Does anyone know if that's true?
ra
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Originally posted by AKIron
You liberals do realize that what Islam has against America is largely you, right?
For probably the 800th time: Islam has nothing against America, AKmoron...
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Originally posted by Thud
For probably the 800th time: Islam has nothing against America, AKmoron...
No, you are the moron thud.
Islam has a problem with anyone/anything that doesnt live by the letter of the Koran. Its right there in their book...the Koran.
Basically they have a huge problem with the entire western world. In case you hadnt noticed.
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Originally posted by Thud
For probably the 800th time: Islam has nothing against America, AKmoron...
right :rolleyes: Islam approves and embraces the decadence and immorality of the US. What, you think Muslims don't see the US this way? Pull your head out and open your eyes.
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Originally posted by AKIron
You liberals do realize that what Islam has against America is largely you, right?
So? Are you suggesting we change our belief system to placate Osama?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So? Are you suggesting we change our belief system to placate Osama?
hehe, no, just attempting to quell a bit of the righteous indignation I see much of in defense of the ill-treated muslims. Ill treatment I'll add that is not actual but perceived by liberals that will pass up no opportunity to throw stones at conservatives.
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Screw all the ragheads. When they can drive a tank into my culdesac, then I will be concerned with what they think. Especially if my Molotov cocktail fails to stop the tank.
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Originally posted by Eagler
strange how some stand beside Islam with its faults while crucifying Christians at every opportunity..
no "some" try to call a duck a duck and not a chicken.
how is this a moslem crime? egyptians are moslems would they have handled this the same way? how about european moslems? this is a jordanian crime at best- not sure how you can take this incident and apply it to the entire moslem world which runs the entire spectrum from rabid to docile.
when something happens in sweden you don't immediately generalize it to canada, US, brittain, france, new zealand etc- why not? they are mostly christian countries - the holocaust happened in germany, was that a christian crime under your way of thinking?
for the record eagler, islam is as primitive and devisive and childish as christianity or any other myth that keeps people's heads in the clouds or keeps them thinking they are the chosen ones. that doesn't give anyone the right to stop thinking rationally though.
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I think that among believers of Islam worldwide, interpretation of the Koran is a spectrum that runs from the benign to the dangerous and cruel.
My own personal doctor is a Muslim from the Mideast, and I have never met a kinder man. Not all Muslims are like this. For instance, the Taliban are not considered to be practitioners of mainstream Islam, but of a more fundementalist and extreme interpretation of Islam. Still, the Talilban are Moslems.
Christianity has its own share of extreme fundementalists as a subset under the umbrella of Christianity.
However, I see a difference between these two great religions. I have the impression that the number of Moslem extremists who whip, murder, maim (chop off hands and feet), suppress women by denying them education etc, believe that disbelievers should be killed, and so on, is far, far larger than the number of Christian extremists who engage in this activity.
Am I wrong about this?
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Originally posted by mrfish
no "some" try to call a duck a duck and not a chicken.
how is this a moslem crime? egyptians are moslems would they have handled this the same way? how about european moslems? this is a jordanian crime at best- not sure how you can take this incident and apply it to the entire moslem world which runs the entire spectrum from rabid to docile.
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It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".
So to answer your question, the Egyptian courts would probably not handle the situation in the same way, but that is only because Egypt is trying to be more west-oriented, and therefore do not practice the Sharia, the moslem law to the letter.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".
[/B]
Please show us where in the Koran of that passage.
This link:
http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm (http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm)
It must also be noted that certain social practices in some Muslim countries are not required by Islam, but have simply evolved in the course of time as a result of indigenous cultural factors.
Gee, there's that word culture again.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Please show us where in the Koran of that passage.
This link:
http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm (http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm)
quote:
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It must also be noted that certain social practices in some Muslim countries are not required by Islam, but have simply evolved in the course of time as a result of indigenous cultural factors.
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Taken from your link:
"Muslim scholars do not consider Islam to be an evolving religion, but rather a religion and legal system which applies to all times."
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The girl was a slut and caused her father great shame. We in Western civilization have lost our family pride and values and could never get away with this. How sad. :confused:
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Originally posted by AKIron
Bad example. The US has a Status Of Forces Agreeement (SOFA) with South Korea that allow the US to decide who tries it's soldiers. Are you implying that the US won't try them fairly? If so, what's your evidence?
Not at all, I know that they have been charged under US military law.
My point was inequal legal systems.
To South Koreans there is no justice, because they have no legal basis to try these two in a Korean court, despite the crime happening in Sth Kor, resulting in the death of 2 Sth Korean citizens.
Off the top of my head this was the same situation in Italy with the A-6 knocking down a cable car.
Tronsky
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It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".
So to answer your question, the Egyptian courts would probably not handle the situation in the same way, but that is only because Egypt is trying to be more west-oriented, and therefore do not practice the Sharia, the moslem law to the letter.
Did you read my earlier reply? I don't know where you get your information from, but I think you'll find that Jordan is one of the most secular Islamic states in the Middle East. It certainly doesn't bow to the strict Shariah law practised in Saudi Arabia, for example.
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There is this cultural problem of honorary killings.
in Sweden there have been a number of well published cases - one invilvong a woman who were quite famous (dunno if she wrote articles or not). She even had police protection for a while, but ended up being killed by her family because of honour.
Without attaching this to any particular religion, one has to concede that this behaviour is spawned largely by two factors; religion and the culture (which of course is heavily affected by religion).
And, as Hortlund points out, this behaviour is spreading to our countries. We're unable to defend ourselves since we cannot legally own handguns and police cannot defend us because they cannot keep a 24h a day watch.
So what we're seeing is an integration of immigrants. That is a huge problem in the Scandinavian countries and the blame is not solely on politicians - many immigrants do not wish to be integrated and hold dearly on to their own cultural values. This is not a problem as long as they're not breaking the law.
Unfortunately, Islam as it is practised in various Islamic states in the world today is quite misogynic and often treats women like property. When a young woman tries to fit into her new adopted country her family will react - sometimes with lethal consequences. The *justification* for such acts is often found in religious texts.
It's worth noting that Christianity had the reformation which by large modernized Christianity. For Islam there hasn't been such a process yet. As it is practised today, there are more 'problems' seen from a Western perspective in Islam (problems meaning problems with our ideals of democracy, freedom, equality etc) than there is with Christianity. The latter has more or less adjusted to the democratic values, whereas the former has been more sluggish to do the same.
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Quote:
"It's worth noting that Christianity had the reformation which by large modernized Christianity. For Islam there hasn't been such a process yet. As it is practised today, there are more 'problems' seen from a Western perspective in Islam (problems meaning problems with our ideals of democracy, freedom, equality etc) than there is with Christianity. The latter has more or less adjusted to the democratic values, whereas the former has been more sluggish to do the same. - St. Santa"
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I think there are real fundemental differences between Islam and Christianity.
Miko said:
As a leader of a band and then an army he (Mohammed - founder of Islam) murdered quite a lot of people. Probably a few personally but certainly thousands on his immediate orders and direction. He started with intercepting the merchant caravans from Mecca, remember? Then he captured it and other cities. Sacking a city in medieval times was quite a violent affair. - Miko
Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.
I'm not saying one religeon is more valid than the other, but its a bit misleading to imply that Islam simply hasn't evolved as far as Christianity. There are REAL differences in philosophy, as evidenced by the number of Islamic terrorists compared to Christian terrorists.... just my .02.
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Originally posted by Toad
Only 10 years for murder in Sweden?
If you're cop and in duty... nope.
Osmo Vallo (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/EUR420012002!Open)
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs132/swe000530.html
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Gunthr, aye there are differences, also in philosophy. Then again, Hinduism is more different from Christianity than Islam is.
But yeah, there are 'operational differences'.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.
but not far at all from the adventures of the old testament.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
To South Koreans there is no justice, because they have no legal basis to try these two in a Korean court, despite the crime happening in Sth Kor, resulting in the death of 2 Sth Korean citizens.
While there may be some that feel there is no justice that isn't the position of the South Korean government nor of all South Koreans.
As I'm sure that you're aware, the US has had a significant military presence in South Korea for over 50 years. This isn't the first incident like this. Those that want us out of there will blow anything out of proportion to try to get what they want. I bet they are a bit more subdued now though with North Korea making war noises.
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"quote:
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.
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Mrfish said:
"but not far at all from the adventures of the old testament.
That is semantics. Why compare the Koran with only a part of the Bible?
Does this mean that you agree with me that there was indeed a stark difference between these two historical figures... that one did engage in violence, and one did not?
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Does this mean that you agree with me that there was indeed a stark difference between these two historical figures... that one did engage in violence, and one did not?
Equally important is the fact that Christianity has the 'render unto Caesar' doctrine, which allows Christians to live under non-Christian governments. Islam has no such doctrine, and the political climate of any country with large a Moslem population reflects this.
ra
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I'm still waiting Hortlunds explanation about how justice did work in Sweden in that Osmo Vallo's case.
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Well what do you want to hear?
Some criminal/alcoholic in his 30:s-40:s died when the police was arresting him. His mother claims the police killed him, a witness or two says that the Police were rough on him. The prosecuters decided that there were no grounds to press charges so the case was dropped.
Some journalist got hold of the case, and for a while everyone was screaming police brutality at the top of their lungs, so another prosecuter took a look at the case and agreed with prosecuter #1 that there were no grounds to press charges so the case was dropped again.
More screams in the media, complete with some sob-story on tv where the mother explains what a good kid her son really was. Another investigation, this time by the highest ranking prosecuter in Sweden. He agreed with prosecuter #1 and #2 and decided that there were no grounds to press charges and the case was dropped again.
So to answer your question: In Sweden people are considered innocent until proven guilty. Strangely enough that applies to cops too. In this case three different prosecuters went over the case and they all agreed that the cops had not done anyting criminal. The media thinks this is wrong though, so once in a while we get a new tv program about the case.
Its the same thing as the cops who shot the anti-EU protester at the EU summit in Gothenburg in the summer of 2001. There were riots when lots of anarchists and whathaveyou tried to storm the meeting. They were throwing rocks at the police, and generally turning Gothenburg into a war zone. A group of 6-7 cops found themselves cornered by a mob, and they were trying to retreat, weapons out. One of the cops was hit in the head by a rock and lost conciousness. When a protester came to throw a rock at the downed cop, another cop shot the protester.
3 prosecuters have decided that it was a clean shooting, no charges has been brought against the cop, the protester went to prison though, something that apparently frustrated the he** out of some people. Some journalist must have made it his personal crusade to get the cop who used his weapon fired or something. Like once every month we get a new tv program about the protester who got shot and how horrible it is that the police can do whatever they want etc etc blah blah (picture rolleyes here)
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The police investigation into the death of Osmo Vallo was not carried out thoroughly and impartially. The scene of arrest was cleaned before detailed forensic testing was carried out, and some eyewitnesses were reportedly asked by police officers to keep quiet about what they had seen.
The first post-mortem examination, a week after the death, was not carried out properly: it failed to take account of detailed eyewitness statements and thus examine the body thoroughly. A thorough examination would have discovered some broken ribs and whether or not a neck vertebra had been damaged. Pathologists carrying out subsequent post-mortem examinations disagreed on whether the police violence and/or positional asphyxia contributed to his death. The National Board of Forensic Medicine (Rättsmedicinalverket) failed to review properly the first post-mortem examination, and the Judicial Council (Rättsliga Rådet) of the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen) failed to produce an authoritative and impartial report on the post-mortem examinations and on international concerns on positional asphyxia as a cause of death in police custody in certain circumstances.
The prosecution authorities failed to question the results of the first post-mortem examination and why they did not correspond to eyewitness accounts; and failed to bring prosecutions based on the many eyewitness statements concerning the police officers' treatment of Osmo Vallo, which were consistent with the 39 wounds and bruises found on his body, as well as with the noise heard by some of the eyewitnesses as if something inside Osmo Vallo's upper body had cracked.
Instead, the two arresting police officers were convicted and fined in 1996 solely in connection with their failure to control the police dog during the incident.
looks like you fcked that case pretty badly and tryed to sweep it under the carpet.
So how is Christian legal system working in sweden, Russia and Southern american countries ?
What do you think about Colonel Budanov's case in Russia? It was, after all, Christian court.
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So how is Christian legal system working in sweden, Russia and Southern american countries ?
These countries all have secular legal systems. I don't think any country has had a Christian court for a few centuries.
ra
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So when a country which is using Islam and French codes as its law fcks up it's bad but when a country using "western" type of laws fcks up it's all O.K ?
Thanks for clearing this up, guess I'm not a lawyer type of guy :)
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Originally posted by Staga
So when a country which is using Islam and French codes as its law fcks up it's bad but when a country using "western" type of laws fcks up it's all O.K ?
Thanks for clearing this up, guess I'm not a lawyer type of guy :)
No I guess you're not.
You are missing the point by a mile and you seem inable to understand the difference between western european laws and various mid eastern "laws". On top of that, you fail to realize that there is a difference between the western european secular legal systems, and the mid eastern sharia-based legal systems. Not only that, in your attempt to score whatever points you think you have, you argue like a 12 yr old.
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Originally posted by Staga
looks like you fcked that case pretty badly and tryed to sweep it under the carpet.
LOL "sweep it under the carpet" didnt I say in my previous post that we got about one tv program a month on that case, combined with a hail storm of newspaper articles?
Frankly you can believe what you want, I know that the wheels of justice have been over this case three times, using three different prosecutors. All have reached the conclusion to drop all charges. That satisfies my thirst for justice. But as I said, there is some journalist out there on a personal crusade or something, so I suspect we will see lots of more programs/newspaper articles. Meanwhile, the cops are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not "until proven guilty by the media".
You should learn critical reading of sources or something.
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"The scene of arrest was cleaned before detailed forensic testing was carried out, and some eyewitnesses were reportedly asked by police officers to keep quiet about what they had seen."
Yeah what ever Hortlund :)