Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bodhi on January 06, 2003, 07:58:30 AM
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GET OVER IT! :eek:
While I do not choose to participate in them, other's should be free to do as they choose. Just because we disagree with a certain means to do something does not mean it is wrong! The Japanese seemed to think it was fairly normal and quite honorable practice, as thousands volunteered to die for the emperor during WW2.
Banning suicide attacks is just an excuse for moving the CV too close to the beach and then not defending it.
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I would rather see em ban the Multi drop goons......or even the nik tards and spit dweebs et all bla bla bla. Everyone wants something changed.And of course THERE wants are important.Suicide jockies are in the books as its said.Its more realistic than seeing a zeke turnfighting with a 109 and a Fw. You cant impliment a "If you die within this ammount of time after dropping" Or the other brainstorm I heard "If you die in X ammount after you drop ord the ord becomes non effective" This is after it destroys something.Not only that but the new guys dont allways pull out at the right time leaveing them cratered or there spouses knocked up.Ya cant make a penelty thats gonna make it harder on the newbies then it is. Cover your CV with cap and deal with it.:D
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simply perk 1000 or even 500 lb bombs.. the reward would suit the effort/skill more then. seems as fair as you can make it. Why should the talentless be able to ruin so many others fun with so little effort?
lazs
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Banning suicide attacks is just an excuse for moving the CV too close to the beach and then not defending it.
Actually the "suicides" people most concerned with are the airfield "porkers", that convert their aircraft into something of a buzz-bomb.
hitech - instead of reprogramming the damage model, maybe a easier solution would be a more potent manned gun (even just 1 at a random location) for some airfields?
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Originally posted by maxtor
Actually the "suicides" people most concerned with are the airfield "porkers", that convert their aircraft into something of a buzz-bomb.
hitech - instead of reprogramming the damage model, maybe a easier solution would be a more potent manned gun (even just 1 at a random location) for some airfields?
I've been pushing for 2 vehicle hangars at medium airfields and 3 at the large airfields, with 3 vhs for the lone vehicle bases. Or increase the hardness for the vh so that 1 plane can't bring it down.
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make 1000 and 500 lb bombs a perk issue
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I have seen many variations of this idea in many different post in the last 2 or 3 weeks.
Mostly these pertain to either the so called SUICIDE bombing of the CV or a base.
This seems to be a real important issue for a lot of players.
I have a solution that is way too simple and be discarded immediatley.
If this is that important to you , if you don`t want to take a chance of your base being suicide bombed, up a fighter cap and protect this base, intercept and shoot them down before they get there.
If you suspect your CV is entering a hostile area where there is high chance of enemy "suicide" bombing the CV, man the guns , up a tight cap over CV and protect it. ( I can rule the last idea out and I know why. The majority of players want to take no responsibility for the CV, but there`s always plenty who want tell the person in charge of the CV how stupid he is for taking it to either safe or a hostile area. Let the CV get in spitting distance of an enemy base that has no dar bar showing and watch the number of peeps lined up to drop ord and strafe field. The dar bar gets close to equal and things change. Defend the CV? No. Everyone wants to up to hit base. Don`t take a genius to know when enemy discover CV is close a portion of them will do their best to sink it. No fun defending, numbers drop suddenly, enemy sinks CV.)
My intentions are not to make anyone mad, but I know it will.
Cold hard facts are, it`s not that important to you if you want defend it.
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Not only that but the new guys dont allways pull out at the right time leaveing them cratered or there spouses knocked up.Ya cant make a penelty thats gonna make it harder on the newbies then it is.
I don't know, isn't it desirable to have someone eventually learn how to kill a target and survive the process? There are some gamey things you can do A2A, but you still have to hit a moving target that is trying to evade or kill you in return. With a lot of the Jabo you see it's scream into the target (literally) at 400+ mph and repeate in a virtually unstoppable P-51 or Typhoont.
Suicide attacks did occur, but even for the Japanese it was a last ditch option. Throughout the war the Japanese (and the pilots of other nations as well) would sometimes crash into the target if they were injured or the plane damaged beyond return. Not all that common though. At the end of the war, the Japanese adopted the kamakizi tactic as a formal doctrin among some units, but although it was fearsome, the cost/benefit anaysis is debatable. If you really want to keep it real, how about flying an overloaded Zero, Val or Kate to get around any of the restrictions that might be emplaced. Sounds like fun :) If you can get that heavy zero to target, Banzi!
Banning suicide attacks is just an excuse for moving the CV too close to the beach and then not defending it.
Aren't suicide attacks just an excuse for not adopting a full package mission, perhaps a multi-mission assault, with escort and attack elements, initial and follow-up targeting, etc.?
Charon
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Originally posted by lazs2
simply perk 1000 or even 500 lb bombs.. the reward would suit the effort/skill more then. seems as fair as you can make it. Why should the talentless be able to ruin so many others fun with so little effort?
lazs
This^
and make it so the CV's cannot get close enough to the beach that a field is under the CV's ack umbrella.
F.
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Bodhi the problem we are currently facing is a little more than just CV jabo's. We get guys coming into fields 3 or 4 times just to kill the fuel, ammo, and barracks. Its usually done over a large area. Thus crippling the fight over a good 20 sectors,
As for CAP. Well, try and shoot down a guy coming in at over 480kias in a dive, who's not the slightest bit interested in you.
The suicide guys are starting to ruin the game for many people. Its gone beyond just taking out a CV, or hitting a field. They are crippling entire blocks now.
Perk any bomb 500kg's and over for JABO's. Or put some sort of ord attrition system in.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
... put some sort of ord attrition system in.
should be that way with everything - from planes to ammo to fuel ... heck available pilots
should be limited relying on re-supplies (goon, gv, train, trucks)
would change strategy of entire game - would make country channel interesting too :)
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How about restricting ordinance availability to curb suicide attacks? If a player dies within (some number of) seconds after dropping bombs, he is not able to load more bombs for (some number of) hours.
This would at least eliminate the die-and-repeat hordes.
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Originally posted by Charon
Aren't suicide attacks just an excuse for not adopting a full package mission, perhaps a multi-mission assault, with escort and attack elements, initial and follow-up targeting, etc.?
Charon
Yep. And then get accused of gang-banging. :)
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double post :confused:
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how about learning to defend your base from the suicide attackers DUH
or suicide all there bases first :p
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Originally posted by Furious
and make it so the CV's cannot get close enough to the beach that a field is under the CV's ack umbrella.
What you need is a good long-range weapon that can be transported where needed and is capable of bringing down enemy vehicles launching under the protection of their flak guns. For this, the Tiger makes a pretty good shore battery. :D
But that assumes that you can roll a Tiger out of the vehicle hangar to do the shelling in the first place. That's why I'd like to see additional vehicle hangars at the larger fields.
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"how about learning to defend your base from the suicide attackers DUH "
Several reasons.1) They come in to fast. Thats great.Grab some alt and dive down with em
2) Theres to many of them. Grab a few friends and try #1.It could even encourage the "Suicides" to try somewhere else.
3) I dont have time to babysit a base. Thats ok too.Just stop squeaking about it when its hit.
Perking 1000 and 500 lb eggs might be a partial answer,but how is someone going to gain perk points if they have none to start with.If its a high perk the old pro's wont have an issue with it because they gain them easily.If there a low perk value than whats the point?
If you dont want to see a base banged,and just because someone crashes trying to pull out doesnt make em a suicide dweeb,then cap it.
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Defend against suicide attackers? why legitimize their skilless attacks? Why should their lack of talent need any special defence that requires patience and skill? It would be much more fair to make the losers earn their bombs. Since they are such losers they will have to find another area of the game to game.
lazs
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it's too bad code can't be written that can identify the suicide dweebtards.
That way if they suicide fine.. but they can't re-up for a while.
these guys that post that it was a 'real' wartime tactic and should be allowed tend to forget that yeah.. it was real.. and final.
One sortie is all ya get in RL.
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Originally posted by DrDea/Kvorkian
...Perking 1000 and 500 lb eggs might be a partial answer,but how is someone going to gain perk points if they have none to start with.If its a high perk the old pro's wont have an issue with it because they gain them easily.If there a low perk value than whats the point? ...
Easy. Give attack perks. Attack perks could be gained by any destruction of an object or GV, such as gunning down a field ack.
If you drop ord on a target and live for 30sec - 1min, no perks lost.
Have a Jettison option. If attacked otw to target, jettison ord. unarmed, and you are now in Fighter mode. No perks lost.
Have no option to carry bombs in fighter role.
F.
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Having seen the attrition system sorta working I can see the benefits. But I think this sorta system would be best suited to a CT or Mission Arena (when it arrives).
Originally posted by Eagler
should be that way with everything - from planes to ammo to fuel ... heck available pilots
should be limited relying on re-supplies (goon, gv, train, trucks)
would change strategy of entire game - would make country channel interesting too :)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
We get guys coming into fields 3 or 4 times just to kill the fuel, ammo, and barracks. Its usually done over a large area. Thus crippling the fight over a good 20 sectors,
As for CAP. Well, try and shoot down a guy coming in at over 480kias in a dive, who's not the slightest bit interested in you.
The suicide guys are starting to ruin the game for many people. Its gone beyond just taking out a CV, or hitting a field. They are crippling entire blocks now.
Perk any bomb 500kg's and over for JABO's. Or put some sort of ord attrition system in.
Sorry Vulcan but I respectfully have to disagree with this one. Personally I feel that it is a very VALID tactic to take out the front lines of the enemy. Its kinda tough when you have 50 guys rolling you over....hit the strats thats part of the game.
Suiciding in there isnt my style....personally I would like to stay alive but others may not.
As for defense against the attacks...CAP should not just stay right over the base...push it out a few miles and intercept the "suiciders" before they get the chance to head in.
My two cents.... :)
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I have been challenged to fly the P47 often this tour. A challenge I have accepted, In accepting this challenge I have made 4 attempts to kill CV in a hvy jug. Of those 4 attempts I died 1 time before I made target. The other 3 times I not only made it to the CV, But I scored kills with my ordinance AS I FLEW OUT & AWAY from the fleet. Scoring kills with your ordinance dropped on a CV only happens when the ordinance HITS THE CV killing planes lifting/landing.
So in short.... check yer skills.......
You might also be good enuff to hit CV & live to tell about it, as well as kill some simpfires tryin to figure where to land now that thier boat is gone. Suicide is never the answer.
Anton:cool:
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I'm not just talking the next field back from the front line. I'm talking every field we owned in a 6 x 6 grid (at least).
Today I logged on same thing again. 8 fields in one area SW, only one had 125% fuel available.
Besides, valid tactic does not equal suicide runs. These guys up in a P51, with two 1000lbers, 25% gas, WEP it full tit to target and hurtle in, completely ignoring any cap chasing them. They have absolutely no intention of RTBing, and the ride the plane into the ground. Its impossible to stop em 80% of them time. And we aren't talking just frontline bases, we're talking bases way back sometimes too.
Tactics are all valid and well and I agree there. When someone takes a one way mission, repeatedly, and loses plane after plane, then they should be penalized otherwise sooner or later you will log on to find every freakin base with 25% fuel. It wouldn't be that hard to do either.
The other thing that peeves me are the mass torp launches. IE Spawn PT, fire, spawn, fire, spawn, fire.
Originally posted by guttboy
Sorry Vulcan but I respectfully have to disagree with this one. Personally I feel that it is a very VALID tactic to take out the front lines of the enemy. Its kinda tough when you have 50 guys rolling you over....hit the strats thats part of the game.
Suiciding in there isnt my style....personally I would like to stay alive but others may not.
As for defense against the attacks...CAP should not just stay right over the base...push it out a few miles and intercept the "suiciders" before they get the chance to head in.
My two cents.... :)
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Originally posted by Bodhi
GET OVER IT! :eek:
While I do not choose to participate in them, other's should be free to do as they choose. Just because we disagree with a certain means to do something does not mean it is wrong! The Japanese seemed to think it was fairly normal and quite honorable practice, as thousands volunteered to die for the emperor during WW2.
True, but they could only do it once.
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I like the jettison option. I would also like to see all of the guns on the cv be mannable and maybe even put some mannable 88mms at the airfields. Maybe charge perks for using the 88s I mean where are those cv gun perks going anyway?
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Defend against the suicide attack? Mighty hard in a close cap over a base when the enemy P-51/Typhoon screams in for a half a sector or more, locked in compressibility by the time it impacts the target. I've almost killed a lot of them. That's really it. You spend your time flying around in a LA7 trying for that one good angle that might let you stop one. Spit V or Zero used to be good base defense planes, but speed is it now.
Meet them on the way in? Assuming there is alt and position when the first wave is detected sure, at least once, until his 9 buddies kill you. Then you're part of the diminishing numbers just tying to get off the runway. Few of these attacks seem to get the job done on one mission, but by the time you up and get to the capped and vulched target at least a second wave has made it's run. And, of course, finding people on your team willing to face greater or equal odds in defense can be a challenge too, since many are off doing the same thing.
That's what it really comes down to - gameplay. Even without the suicide aspect these attacks are really hard to stop, because, we're seeing the arrival of the Big Pork. The egging fuel 1-2 sectors deep is the signature feature of that environment, and the final step to eliminating any real ability to stop the attack.
There are game players, whose main focus is on War Winning, maybe getting a vulch or gang kill in the process, and then there are those that like to primarily recreate the A2A experience of WW2 fighter combat, for whom loosing a good fight is better than landing a 6-vulch streak. Nothing new here, as has been discussed many times before. AW went through this, and now AH. I wouldn't blame the influx of AW players, this seems to be a pretty universal style of gameplay in online communities. In fact, it's arrival was quite a shock to AW players of the pre Gamestorm days. A simulation is hard to master. A2A is hard to master. You get your bellybutton handed too you for months getting up to speed, which can be hard on the ego unless you really love the era being simulated. I remember the excitement when I first started to get a positive K/D. Even in games like Quake, which are far easier to master at a basic level, you have spawn campers. Given a choice, the path of least resistance seems to win out.
Personally, I still find that the enjoyment value still outweighs the monthly/daily cost. When/if it doesn't, when you just can't find a good fight anymore (I have yet to regularly encounter the deep porkage that some have referred too), I'll start looking elsewhere. That’s why I’m here in the first place :) I do get the feeling that HT and Pyro are more the enthusiast type themselves, and want a game that balances all interests. In reality though, it’s hard to see how they can just ignore the gameplayers and the reality of the learning curve to potential new players who might be a bit less devoted to the era being simulated. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Charon
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A few simple Jabo runs to the bases launching these attackers and hitting there fuel is your answer.Hit there ammo.Look people.This is valid tactics.The augering in in the process is probebly 50\50 lack of skill /desire to get back up faster.Regardless,Hit em back.This crying about it isnt gonna do anything.If the rear line bases have short fuel or ammo then they wont be able to hit YOUR rear bases.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Defend against suicide attackers? why legitimize their skilless attacks? Why should their lack of talent need any special defence that requires patience and skill? It would be much more fair to make the losers earn their bombs. Since they are such losers they will have to find another area of the game to game.
lazs
Your saying their losers and skilless and lack talent? Your problem is slolved then. If their that bad there won`t be anything damaged. As far as the term "special defence", it`s not, It`s called base defense. Let`s face it, what your saying is you do not won`t to put any effort into defense , but you want to leave from an undamaged airfield so you can go furball.:) Hell go to the DA, that`s what it is for. Hey I understand that a lot of players care nothing about base capture or who wins the game. What everyone is referring to as suicide is, for the most part, actualy just normal play. Coming into a fully supplied base is gonna result in a lot ack kills. If the player is actualy on a suicide run, they will never do enough damage to concern anyone. If it wasn`t for the guys sacraficing some by attacking bases and dieing a lot we would not need but 1 map for the game. If dogfighting is all you want to do, that`s your right, but don`t complain and and try to catagorize base attackers as suiciders, losers or skilless.
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Bravo at least YOU get it:)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
The other thing that peeves me are the mass torp launches. IE Spawn PT, fire, spawn, fire, spawn, fire.
Another new trend is spawning M3s near towns and releasing the troops at the spawn point and then spawning out to get more troops.
ack-ack
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A few simple Jabo runs to the bases launching these attackers and hitting there fuel is your answer.Hit there ammo.Look people.This is valid tactics.The augering in in the process is probebly 50\50 lack of skill /desire to get back up faster.Regardless,Hit em back.This crying about it isnt gonna do anything.If the rear line bases have short fuel or ammo then they wont be able to hit YOUR rear bases.
At which point, having faced some staight up opposition the side that seems to be coming out on the losing end also seems to quickly evaporate. So you are once again being gangbanged or you are the gangbanger, or if you're like me you try to fly a fast plane and feed on the edges or find a fight that has some equality of action for more than 1-2 sorties before it evaporates (usually the carrier is sunk) and you have to move on again. Sometimes you have to change sides to find these fights. As stated, I still find enough enjoyment here for it to be worth $15 a month, but for my interests the arena is not optimal right now.
It is a valid tactic DrDre. I just dont enjoy (my personal style of gameplay) getting gangbanged, or taking part in a gangbang. If these were fairly even numbered fights, that stayed even numbers for a while, they would be great. gangbanging was a realistic tactic in WW2, but then so was death, and WW2 was not a game but a fight for survival on both the personal and international levels. This is a game, however, and I like more of a level playing field. Not 1v1 dueling arena per se, but at least fairly even fights. Even 2 v 1 isn't so bad, but 5 v 1 or more....
Perhaps the mission theater will solve the problem. But how successful will it be? The current strat guys will likely experience an ego smack that goes with getting beat 1v1 by someone else. Many of the current A2A guys will likely find the structure to be too confining. I'm looking forward to it. If anything, you should be able to organize (at the very least) a regular mission night or two given the interst in scenarios.
Charon
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I recall the AW days on AOL when porking the frontline bases sometimes was the only way to take a base.Basicly the same thing applies here.You hit the rear bases,and take the front ones.Thats textbook for the "Strat" players.I was never a strat player.I didnt mind taking bases,but I was limited in playing time so I wasnt like some of these Gernerals that live in there and plan there day around an 18 to 20 hour plan.Strat playing by definition requires you think in advance.The Furball crowd just wants to find a place where they can get maby 20 people combined dukeing it out between 2 bases.Unfortunatly as long as there is a score involved someone is ALWAYS gonna screw it up for the other people who in return are screwing it up for them.
Group 1 battle cry. "Hey why dont you furballers get over here and help us out.Your not "Team" players."
Group 2 Battle cry. Hey guys theres a GREAT furball between base whatever and whatever.This is a blast!!
Group 3 battle cry. Well hell I'll supress that mess.
So ya see,its never going to be the "Be all" for everyone.Ya just have to take what ya find.As far as the suicide eggers,I didnt know that untill I got the hang of Jabo I was suffering from suicidal tendecies.I guess experience='s prozac in here.:rolleyes:
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charon you get it..
jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem. It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?
We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.
If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it. I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or more.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
charon you get it..
jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem. It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?
We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.
If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it. I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or more.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
charon you get it..
jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem. It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?
We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.
If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it. I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or more.
lazs
Hear that swooshing sound go over your head? That aint no jet . Everytime ya post you make you make it clearer what your prob is. You haven`t seen many SUICIDE attacks cause your too busy steering clear of bases that are being hit. :D Truth is there is not that many suicides, it`s peeps attacking a base and getting killed by acks. lmao It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless????????????? Now that`s worth framing. Yea it`s gonna take a little effort. That might rule you out. If their so damn skilless and your, "the master of skill" should be no prob for you. As for as ruining game play it`s not happening. You just can`t see that not everyone going to say" well man he don`t like us actualy playing the game for the purpose base capture and winning the map, so we got to conform to his narrow minded view that someone`s stole his Tonka toy. Not gonna happen. As for as perking the bombs you would never no the difference because your not defending your bases anyway. The people who enjoy base capture and strat runs would still do the same thing. Unless HT decides to turn this into pointless arcade game and takes away the base capture and object of the game your not gonna have a fully supplied field anywhere you want it to take light fighters from to play Roger Ramjet. Why don`t you just quit wasting your time on us skilless, timid folks and go do your thing feeling secure in your superior knowledge and skill. What your complaining about is the players who use strategy to obtain an objective, as you call it effort.
Avoid it at all cost, it`s not worht it.:D
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Originally posted by Jackal1
What your complaining about is the players who use strategy to obtain an objective, as you call it effort.
Avoid it at all cost, it`s not worht it.:D
No he is rightly complaining about the skill-less dweebs that climbs to 20k then hurls their JABO into an airfield's fuel supply with little intent on living through it. Then repeating it continuously. That is not strategic game play... that is being a pork dweeb.:rolleyes:
And it IS very difficult to defend against waves and waves of fast moving suicide dweebs.
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I dont care which team your on if you havent seen this you arent looking. I have flown with a thirty man mission only to see it quickly reduced to five guys because most of them didnt understand the problems involved in a steep approach. From the defense point of view I have watched a cloud of enemies reduced to nothing because they all attacked at a steep angle and dropped too low and fast so that their own bombs killed them. I have seen this at fields that have alreay been deacked so dont blame it on ack. The fact is that eighty percent of the players online are dweebs and dont understand the physics of flight and havent taken the time to learn the planes they are flying. There isnt a reward for living and so the incentive to learn how to properly execute the attack has been removed. Its a pity that these same dweebs dont understand that they could survive and do their egos and score and country too a much better service if they would just take the time to gain a little skill. Were this the case the inadequacies of the cv defenses would be brought even more to light.
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Originally posted by MWHUN
No he is rightly complaining about the skill-less dweebs that climbs to 20k then hurls their JABO into and airfield's fuel supply with little intent on living through it. Then repeating it continuously. That is not strategic game play... that is being a pork dweeb.:rolleyes:
And it IS very difficult to defend against waves and waves of fast moving suicide dweebs.
If you can`t get waves and waves of defense planes up to alt you bet your sweet bippy it`s difficult to defend against. Sounds to me like these skilless phantoms of the skies are succeding more often than not. Maybe it`s because you don`t want to put the same effort and and advance planning into it they did. After all their just skilless pork dweebs .:D The waves and waves part is why it works. If you know their not gonna stop coming and you would rather complain about how skilless they are instead of puttin a little effort into climbing and defending, you better keep your bags packed cause you going to moving regularly while they take your bases. I mean after all were just Pork Dweebs that haven`t got enough brains to quit while something is working. Maybe one day we will learn that it just aint right to keep hitting a field that no one wants to put any effort into defending. Then we can all be merry men and fly off into the sunset from the field of our choice to awe at the totaly immaculate and unmolested bases and tell each other tales of yore about the jousting days. Nawwwww no chance of me ever having that much intelligence, I`m too happy having a blast , doing what I enjoy in the GAME that I pay to fly in. Sad but true. Were not worthy. lmao Up to 2 pages and still using the same bait. Wish I had this much luck bass fishing. dudes, enjoy the game.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Maybe it`s because you don`t want to put the same effort and and advance planning into it they did.
What color is the sky in your world?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MWHUN
What color is the sky in your world?:rolleyes:
Color doen`t matter today. It`s been all bright and shiny.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Then we can all be merry men and fly off into the sunset from the field of our choice to awe at the totaly immaculate and unmolested bases and tell each other tales of yore about the jousting days.
Flying enmass in P51 and Typhoons avoiding confrontation with the solitary intent of destroying a base via any means possible is not jousting.
Sure, it's a realistic tactic in a war, even the Kamakazi part, but war isn't fun like games are supposed to be. But certainly pork hoarding can be a game too. You can eliminate all fighters and resistance (since they are irrelevant anyway) and just have a base capture race. But how long will it take for this to get boring?
The problem is that a race to capture bases is the built in objective of AH. As long as this is the case, players will always use "the ends justify the means" approach and do anything to grab bases faster. Although leaving the game to the choice of the players won't stop base porking, porking won't be encouraged and maybe even ridiculed, as it should be because it ruins the fun of others.
There was a good reason Kesmai discouraged arena destruction in AW, although it did become prevelant in AW's latter years due to new management that knew nothing of the game... which greatly contributed to it's demise.
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Originally posted by Grizzly
Flying enmass in P51 and Typhoons avoiding confrontation with the solitary intent of destroying a base via any means possible is not jousting.
Sure, it's a realistic tactic in a war, even the Kamakazi part, but war isn't fun like games are supposed to be. But certainly pork hoarding can be a game too. You can eliminate all fighters and resistance (since they are irrelevant anyway) and just have a base capture race. But how long will it take for this to get boring?
The problem is that a race to capture bases is the built in objective of AH. As long as this is the case, players will always use "the ends justify the means" approach and do anything to grab bases faster. Although leaving the game to the choice of the players won't stop base porking, porking won't be encouraged and maybe even ridiculed, as it should be because it ruins the fun of others.
There was a good reason Kesmai discouraged arena destruction in AW, although it did become prevelant in AW's latter years due to new management that knew nothing of the game... which greatly contributed to it's demise.
Errrrrrr Ummmmmmmm yea. Your right, it`s not jousting, that`s what I said but not mixed in with the avoiding any confrontation part. When you don`t have any defenders, there is no confrontation and that sucks. That`s the point I`m making. If all the people here that are stating how bad they want to engage the enemy in equal numbers would defend their bases it would be more enjoyable for everyone. The only way you can eliminate all fighters and resistance by running base capture sorties is when the supposedly itching for a fight pilots do not up and defend the base. Your certainly right about the race for base capture being built in to AH. That`s why the country that captures the most bases gets the " ------ has won the war" message. If base porking ruins the game for some it`s because you will not put the effort in defending your bases. If you are against porking, attacking and taking bases then evidently you just want to dogfight. It wouldn`t be hard to find a real air battle if you would get in it defending your bases. If we ruin the fun of others then I have no idea what you want. Enemy hitting the base shouldn`t bother you because that contributes to the evil "object of the game. If you want to fight , them big dar bars headed that way should realy make your day. Plenty of fighting there. If it comes down to just a base capture race it would mean we are playing the game for the objective. I don`t know how long it will take you guys that want to fight so bad to get bored. Maybe when you get that bored you will up a field and join the fun, then everyone would have what they want.
The new management certainly had knowledge of the game in AW. Look who they were. :} EA bought the game out for the sole purpose of eliminating it, just as they have a number of their competitors.
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I don't disagree with what you say, Jackal, it's just the extent and circumstances found in AH.
I spend almost all my time defending bases... it's what I do. Having bases to fight over is great and adds purpose to the fighting. Of course, drop and auger types are there too, and they aren't as much fun since they don't live long enough to kill.
My complaint, and I think that of others, is the hoards that avoid confrontation to attack bases. Like they form into massive groups to completely overpower and run over any opposition there may be. Or they taget bases that are not defended... you can't defend them all. And many auger after dropping to make another trip quicker.
If, as you say, these players believe that opposition is fun, why do they go to such great lengths to avoid competition or pound what little there is into the dirt? I'm not going to waste my game time futily trying to hold off these hoards, so I and others go elsewhere. If they really enjoy a fight, they shouldn't try to over run and circumvent the opposition as they do.
I really couldn't care less if a massive force of porkers destroy unused bases in a vacant corner of the arena far far away. But when they choose to run through an area I'm having fun in, they bug me. Also, eventually the number of bases available become so few that alternative types of game play can not avoid intruding on each other. the arena is ruined and the fun is over, except of course for the racing base grabbing arena porkers.
It's all good, but this type of game play is just too disruptive to others. It could be restricted to a portion of the arena if the players had consideration for others, but that's not possible when the objective of arena destruction is built into AH.
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jakal... Ok... now I get it... u are just pretending to be infantile and stupid in order to show us how foolish we are. or... perhaps you have an even higher purpose?
boy do I feel silly now..
lazs
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The only way you can eliminate all fighters and resistance by running base capture sorties is when the supposedly itching for a fight pilots do not up and defend the base.
I up in base defense until I can no longer get gear up because of the conga line waiting to vulch at D1 out or so. In fact, base defense is what I look for when I first pull up the map. If you look at my last tour's stats, about every Spit V sortie you see there was red overhead when I turned over the engine. Though the LA7 is fast becoming the base defender of choice since it sometimes gives you a chance to close to shooting range.
How often, though, do the Strat "game winners" go on the defensive, or stick around if there is solid defense? You guys have all the big generals and organization. How often do you bring your 30 plane hord face to face with the other teams 30 plane hord? How often do you, Jackal? How many times is the milkrun, with perhaps a handful of vulch opportunities, just too appealing compared to taking 1-2 hours to assault a heavily defended base?
I also wonder if the strat guys play any real 1v1 strategy games like Civ-play the world, or H2H wargames, or online chess? I mean, those are real strategy/tactical games where it's your personal military expertise vs your opponent, milkrunning is not an option, and to gang up you usually have to whip the enemy first. Of course, if you lose it can be even worse on the ego than losing a dogfight. You think you're Rommel and some 12-year-old hands you your ass.
What's amazes me, as someone who actually likes strategy/tactical games and plays them regularly, is that the weakest aspect of this game, the strategy, is the main focus of the game to many. And, that the common tactics don't seem to incorporate any real depth of strategy (the occasional HQ attack being a weak exception, or deciding where to park a CV). Don't get me wrong, AH is far more progressive than most similar games, with real long term potential to add tactical and strategic depth. Trains, truck convoys, etc. But, the path of least resistance seems mighty compelling.
Few people seem to play with depth because, frankly, there's no need. Why pork a refinery if you can just jabo the fuel at a few close fields, eliminate the opportunity to resist from those who would make the effort, grab a few vulches, drop some goons and move on. It's almost a tic-tac-toe route to victory. Mob base A while your opponents Mob bases B and C, then count up the totals at the end. I lost interest in Tic-Tac-Toe when I was 6.
If you know their not gonna stop coming and you would rather complain about how skilless they are instead of puttin a little effort into climbing and defending, you better keep your bags packed cause you going to moving regularly while they take your bases.
I remember having to launch from three sectors away and fly for 30 mins in AW during the big pork, because all the nearby fuel was down, just to get in the action. It is not nearly that bad here, but I don't want it to get that way either.
My complaint, and I think that of others, is the hoards that avoid confrontation to attack bases. Like they form into massive groups to completely overpower and run over any opposition there may be. Or they taget bases that are not defended... you can't defend them all. And many auger after dropping to make another trip quicker.
If, as you say, these players believe that opposition is fun, why do they go to such great lengths to avoid competition or pound what little there is into the dirt? I'm not going to waste my game time futily trying to hold off these hoards, so I and others go elsewhere. If they really enjoy a fight, they shouldn't try to over run and circumvent the opposition as they do.
Grizzly
My feelings exactly. I don't want one big DA for the MA. Strat is necessiary, and has the potential to be a lot of fun for me personally if the depth of the strategy/tactics advances. I generally love scenarios. BoB was Awesome, too bad I can't really make Neimen. Pork warrior, though, has no personal appeal at any level.
Charon
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Originally posted by lazs2
simply perk 1000 or even 500 lb bombs.. the reward would suit the effort/skill more then. seems as fair as you can make it. Why should the talentless be able to ruin so many others fun with so little effort?
lazs
OK.....so let just perk EVERYTHING........the nits and rooks get it all for free anyway, and you still CANT win
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I don't care if people suicide or not.
I do care if gameplay makes it a more valid tactic or promotes it as benneficial.
It simply should not be rewarded.
AKDejaVu
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There should be some way to discourage dropping and augering.Not perking eggs,but maby a way to NOT perk attack runs if you do the same sort of thing repetedly.I guess that would be hard to track tho.Dont punish a pilot for being untrained or inexperienced.Withhold perks for those that live for the drop and auger.