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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on January 06, 2003, 03:47:51 PM

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 06, 2003, 03:47:51 PM

Anyone have experience with either one of those and advice that may affect my selection? I am still undecided whether to go with 14 or 30, blue or stainless and if 14, whether to select a Ranch model - though I am leaning towards 14 regular, in stainless steel - to possibly be later painted with dark epoxy enamel.

 I have made quite a research on the subject, know all the stats. Personal impression is what I look for.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: rc51 on January 06, 2003, 06:47:20 PM

there both junk!
Get a bolt action rifle and learn to shoot.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: UserName on January 06, 2003, 06:57:01 PM

Agreed.

But if you want a semi-auto with a capability for taking large clips (dunno if your state prohibits them or not), get an SKS.

They should still be pretty plentiful, and they're rugged as hell. Just be careful you clean it well. If you let the firing pin accumulate crud (or if you don't clean the gunk the ChiCom SKS's come in well enough), it'll slam fire on you, and that is not a pleasant experience. It's also known to slam fire using reloads and some US ammo, but I've yet to experience that. Stick with Russian HP ammo, that'd be safest.

The Yugo SKS's are the nicest looking ones, but the Russian ones are good too. ChiCom's aren't bad, but you should be a bit wary of them.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: rc51 on January 06, 2003, 07:14:55 PM

try one of these

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 06, 2003, 09:17:39 PM

I live in NY City. Most of the stuff is banned here - SKS, AR, etc.
 Bolt action is fine for hunting or sniper work. I am not really interested in either of those now.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Dago on January 06, 2003, 09:40:20 PM

Mini-14 is a fun plinker.  Stainless is preferrable I think.  The blue version is nice too.  Lotta aftermarket stuff out there. You can get surplus 5.56 pretty cheap, some good Russian hollowpoint can be had in 500 rd qts good and cheap.  

Do you need an expensive bolt action?  I dont know, depends on what you want to do with the weapon.  Just want to have fun plinking, the Mini-14 is a good choice.  The 30 is good too, consider the price of the ammo and the recoil change when making your selection.

Buy a weapon to fill your need for what you want to do, not so it can make you feel like a man. :)

dago

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: -ammo- on January 06, 2003, 10:34:17 PM

Owned a mini 14. I bought some surplu .223 ball ammo and had a ball with that little carbine.  However, even with good ammo mine was not an overly accurate rifle.  But nevertheless, I had a blast with the thing  and did manage alleviate my Fathers pesky beaver problem with it:)  The critter had a network of tunnels and dam's  and it really liked the hardwood trees.  It had to go.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: funkedup on January 07, 2003, 02:04:01 AM

A friend of mine has the Mini 30 and he swears by it.  Good versatile gun that shoots cheap ammo.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: BlkKnit on January 07, 2003, 07:38:44 AM

I always prefer stainless, and the basic choice for you is .223 or .308 (7.62 x 39).  Either one is good, and cheap ammo is abundant for either.  Me, I want both!

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: rosco on January 07, 2003, 08:23:34 AM

I have a mini 14. Its a fun gun to shoot, not terribly accurate but not as bad as some would lend you to believe, or it would depend on your defination of accurate I  guess. Ive hunted wolves and foxes with it.  Shot a few crows. Its a nice little bush gun. Short, easy to carry,  always fires and is accurate enough for a hundred yards or less. If your looking to shoot groundhogs at 200 yards then forget it though.

  I never use mine since they are restricted up here now. Its a blued ranch rifle with an elcheapo scope "tasco I believe" Id sell it to you for cheap, but im not sure how to get it to you. Im not one for smuggling firearms across the border :)

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: lazs2 on January 07, 2003, 08:30:59 AM

I have a mini 14 in stainless.  They are not the most accurate but will easilyu group 4 inches at 100 yards and..... they are rugged... they eat everything you feed em and keep on going.   You can get barrels and have them "accurized" with a 1/2 MOA if that is desired.. personaly.... I find em to be a rugged, accurate and fun little carbine.   They also are not black so they are not mean ol assualt rifles... with the 5 shot clip in the clueless gun banners don't even notice em.
lazs

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 09:08:40 AM

That was one of my considerations - they do not look "evil" while posessing basically the same capabilities as an AR-15 at a third of a price and being more reliable - and not banned in many places.

 I understand that they group about 4" at 100 yards out of the box but apparently $70 worth of tinkering reduces it to sub 2" - stock bedding, smaller gas bushing, trigger job, muzzlebrake/compensator, recoil buffer.

 Allegedely stainless tend to string worse than blued when the barrel gets hot, so if one is ever in a prolonged firefight, he would have to compensate.

 rosco:  If your looking to shoot groundhogs at 200 yards then forget it though.
 I never use mine since they are restricted up here now. Its a blued ranch rifle... Id sell it to you for cheap, but im not sure how to get it to you.

 I am looking for a para-military weapon, not a varmint or sniper gun. Sturdy functional iron sights and ease of maintenance are desirable. It seems that stainless regular would fit the bill. Anyway, I have time to decide at least untill my NY City rifle permit is issued, hopefully by spring.

 But I would consider buying your Ranch once I have a permit.
 Name your price here or in a private message, also any details about the rifle, rounds shot, etc. I am sure it is legal to send it through the mail from Canada to US and will find out the details if we make a deal.
 Alternatively, you can go to the Mini-14 forum on http://www.perfectunion.com/forums and offer it there. You may even sell it to another canadian.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 07, 2003, 09:12:22 AM

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
That was one of my considerations - they do not look "evil" while posessing basically the same capabilities as an AR-15 at a third of a price and being more reliable - and not banned in many places.

An AR-15 can be picked up for around $550, and a Mini-14 for about $400.  The price difference is no nearly what you claim it to be.

I don't know of any place in the US where the AR-15 is banned.  Especially since you can only buy them when they are in compliance with fed standars.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: LePaul on January 07, 2003, 09:30:05 AM

I was checking into Mini-14s way back when, as I had a Ruger 10/22 that was a ball to shoot, very accurate, and as Laz said, will shoot anything you feed it (tho stay away from those tacky .22 shot-shells...little gel filed shotgun like pellets....they barely make it out the barrel and dont have to power to make the gun reload).  I opted for a Ar-15 H-bar since with my military training, know now to take them apart, clean, etc.  

Ar-15s are great, very accurate.  I'm not a huge fan of the big spring in the stock or the muzzle jump...but that aside, it was my favorite gun.

I paid $900 for mine way back when and sold it a few years ago to my mechanic because my truck at the time needed a lot of work.  Sigh.  Looking to get one again, but new are pricey.  Aieee

Sideline:  Where can you find a high capacity clip for a 10/22?  The rotary clip leaves a lot to be desired.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 09:40:18 AM

AKDejaVu: I don't know of any place in the US where the AR-15 is banned.

 California. New York City (where I live). Canada. Probably other places.
 I may be a bit off with AR-15 pricing, not concentrating on one, but it is considerably more expensive. Not the least becasue it has many more parts, more complicated parts and is generally made to stricter tolerances.


Especially since you can only buy them when they are in compliance with fed standars.
 
 Local standards are often more restrictive than federal ones. Only 5-round mags in NYC, for example. No pistol grips. No barrel shrouds or flashhiders. No folding stock and you can forget about a grenade launcher or a bayonet... ;)

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: LePaul on January 07, 2003, 09:44:58 AM

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
AKDejaVu: I don't know of any place in the US where the AR-15 is banned.

 California. New York City (where I live). Canada. Probably other places.
 I may be a bit off with AR-15 pricing, not concentrating on one, but it is considerably more expensive. Not the least becasue it has many more parts, more complicated parts and is generally made to stricter tolerances.


Especially since you can only buy them when they are in compliance with fed standars.
 
 Local standards are often more restrictive than federal ones. Only 5-round mags in NYC, for example. No pistol grips. No barrel shrouds or flashhiders. No folding stock and you can forget about a grenade launcher or a bayonet... ;)

 miko

Those poor poor gangsters, so what's that leave them with for options?  Paint pellets and Nerf guns?    :p

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: lazs2 on January 07, 2003, 09:46:21 AM

yep... the ar15 and even the ak47 wouldn't be in the trouble they are in if they were pink and fuzzy looking... the gun banners are by far the most stupid people I have ever met... I don't know.... maybe it's not so much stupid as..... letting emotion get in the way of their thinking.... sorta like.... women.  That really is why we need to end womens sufferage when you get right down to it.
lazs

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 09:48:01 AM

LePaul: Sideline:  Where can you find a high capacity clip for a 10/22?  The rotary clip leaves a lot to be desired.

 Check http://rimfirecentral.com/forums - probably the most comprehensive 10/22 community forum and resource.
 I am certainly going to get one of those - probably before getting the Mini, since the choices are much more clearer here.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: LePaul on January 07, 2003, 09:57:03 AM

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
LePaul: Sideline:  Where can you find a high capacity clip for a 10/22?  The rotary clip leaves a lot to be desired.

 Check http://rimfirecentral.com/forums - probably the most comprehensive 10/22 community forum and resource.
 I am certainly going to get one of those - probably before getting the Mini, since the choices are much more clearer here.

 miko

Great link, thanks!

I've had my 10/22 for 20 years, anyone that's fired mine tries to buy mine away from me.  I had a few of the plastic 30-round banana clips but those tend to crack and break after a few years.

I think the 10/22s are under $100 now...you can really soup them up into some para-military looking things.  Someone had a setup with 2 of them, called the "Ultimate Squirrel Gun" where two were attached together and, well, looked more like an anti-aircraft gun.  Ah, but those were the pre-Clinton days...

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Yeager on January 07, 2003, 09:57:59 AM

I owned a Ruger Mini-14 several years back.  The receiver bolt would frequently carbon freeze requireing a hammer blow to break it free.

With scope, accuracy was bad past 75 yrds.  At 200 yrds I couldnt hit a 3 meter plate with any predictablity.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 10:02:26 AM

LePaul: Those poor poor gangsters, so what's that leave them with for options? Paint pellets and Nerf guns?
lazs2: wouldn't be in the trouble they are in if they were pink and fuzzy looking...

 You would be surprised. Last week an 17(?) year old ordered a pizza with intention to rob the delivery guy he has robbed previously!. The owner recognised the guy over the phone and two undercover policement went to perform the delivery. One of them got a  toy gun (spray-painted black - as NYC laws mandate bright orange toy guns only) stuck to his head and the other blew the perp away.

 So now you have a gun-related child death, police shooting, racial incident - the works. In a few weeks we will have a total ban on all things that can be confused for a pistol - toy guns (can be painted), chocolate guns, lighter guns - everything.
 A robber will have easier time obtaining a real gun for his stick-up than a toy gun. Will probably hurt someone with it too... At worst he will use a real knife, which is more dangerous to a victim than a toy gun, even painted.

 As far as I understand, the only thing that legislation would do - if it works as intended, which it never will - is to preserve life or a robber from accidental shooting.
 It will certainly endanger victims and cause children to come up with unsafe self-made replacements for plastic toy guns.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 10:07:56 AM

LePaul: I think the 10/22s are under $100 now...
 About $180 new.

Someone had a setup with 2 of them, called the "Ultimate Squirrel Gun" where two were attached together and, well, looked more like an anti-aircraft gun.

 You can get a Gatling-gun made of 8 10/22s. Plug 40 rd magazines into each and you have 240 rounds to play with.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: lord dolf vader on January 07, 2003, 10:44:13 AM

320

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 07, 2003, 11:05:16 AM

lord dolf vader: 320

 :) I was issued a Kalashnikov - with 30 rounds magazines... I guess when you life depends on keeping track of ammo, the brain develops a dedicated curcuit to perform calculations. Who knew it was still operational after all those years...

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Gman on January 07, 2003, 01:02:02 PM

LOL!

The AR15 isn't banned in Canada.  I sell at least 50 a month, and own serveral myself.

In fact, I have a 14.5 Colt SOPMOD M4, with 4 position stock, ya that's right, the one you CAN'T have in the USA, unless you have yourself a class 3 license.

All AR series rifles fall into the "restricted use" category here is all, meaning you can't hunt with them, and are subject to storage laws; the same thing applies to handguns here.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: rosco on January 08, 2003, 08:09:50 PM

I cant figure out how to PM, If your interested in talking email me at rosco@raf303.org

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 08, 2003, 09:35:54 PM

10/22s can be had for $129 if you look around.  I've seen a couple of stores running them at that price.  Regular price is usually around $179.

And Miko... I don't know what to say other than I don't think you know as much about an AR-15 as you are letting on.

They are not complex.  They do not have alot of parts.  I seriously doubt that many guns have fewer parts... maybe the AK by a couple of pieces.  I bought mine in peices (as in COMPLETELY in pieces) and put it together myself.  There's nothing to it.

You can do the same for around $550 (Mine was $509).  I just priced some Mini-14s last weekend and they were at $400.

I still don't know why NY would have a ban on the AR-15.  As long as it met federal requirements for a semi auto weapon (no more than 2 ticks on the "assault" counter).  Though... I can understand why California would (they are just plain stupid).

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 08, 2003, 09:44:04 PM

Just did a check of Ruger's web site.  

MSRP for the Mini-14 is $636.

A Check of http://www.olyarms.com had their base model AR-15:

MSRP for an Olympic Arms "Plinker" AR-15: $595

The price difference just isn't what you'd think.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 08, 2003, 09:54:22 PM

LOL! NY.. what a bunch of dorks:

48 (d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such
49 weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known
50 as:
51 (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all
52 models);
53 (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
54 (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
55 (iv) Colt AR-15;
56 (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

S. 8234 8 A. 11535

1 (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
2 (vii) Steyr AUG;
3 (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
4 (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street
5 Sweeper and Striker 12;

Good thing they didn't mention the M-1 in there. wew.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Airhead on January 08, 2003, 10:24:07 PM

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d

 



 You can get a Gatling-gun made of 8 10/22s. Plug 40 rd magazines into each and you have 240 rounds to play with.

 miko

Hmmm... 8 10/22s, each with a 40 rnd magazine equals 240???
I think people should have to pass a basic math test before they can buy firearms. I could just imagine Miko going "That's it kids, I fired my 240th round, the gatling gun is empty, so you can play Army with it!" then watching in horror as the kids wipe out his car with the additional 60 rounds....

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: funkedup on January 09, 2003, 12:25:01 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Airhead
additional 60 rounds....

:D

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: rosco on January 09, 2003, 08:09:13 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Airhead
Hmmm... 8 10/22s, each with a 40 rnd magazine equals 240???
I think people should have to pass a basic math test before they can buy firearms. I could just imagine Miko going "That's it kids, I fired my 240th round, the gatling gun is empty, so you can play Army with it!" then watching in horror as the kids wipe out his car with the additional 60 rounds....

  40*8=320
320-240=80
 
  I know I know, it was a typo :D

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: lazs2 on January 09, 2003, 08:32:38 AM

yep deja... good thing the gun banners are so stupid eh?  or is it just that their real point is simply to take any gun out of circulation for any excuse they think the women voters will buy?  

yeager..  I hve had only one jam in my mini 14 when a primer fell out of a chambered round.   I don't even clean the thing as much as I should.   With course, open sights it will easily group 2-3" at 75 yards..
lazs

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Airhead on January 09, 2003, 11:29:13 AM

Quote

Originally posted by rosco
40*8=320
320-240=80
 
  I know I know, it was a typo :D

Zzziiinnngggggggg!!!!

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: funkedup on January 09, 2003, 05:51:11 PM

Quote

Originally posted by rosco
I know I know, it was a typo

He did it on purpose.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: eagl on January 10, 2003, 01:01:36 AM

If you get a mini-14, fire the heaviest round you can find.  My mini-14 ranch rifle (fixed 6x scope for durability) will fire a 5 inch group at 100 yds from a concrete bench rest with lightweight ammo, and a 3-4 inch group at 100 yds with the heaviest stuff I could find.  I found that personally disappointing as I can fire my 7mm with a 1 inch group at 200 yds from the same rest, but the mini-14 has never claimed much accuracy.

It's durable and reasonably lightweight, although I've had the bolt stick a few times even when clean, requiring a hefty whack with a piece of wood or rubber mallot to unstick.

If you put a scope on it, get a durable one because that big clanky bolt whacking around underneath it will break cheap adjustable scopes.  Also, beware cheap 20-30 rd magazines as some won't feed properly.  I had to buy 3 to get one that fed properly.  Nothing a good gunsmith couldn't fix I suppose, but it was irritating at the time.

My brother's olympic arms AR-15 with the heavy barrel fires a 1 inch group at 100 yds so there is simply no comparison between the two when it comes to accuracy.  The mini won't get a second look from the anti-gun stormtroopers however (unless you have a 30 rd mag sticking out), which may be a good thing in a few years.

"...cold dead fingers."

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 10, 2003, 11:00:45 AM

AKDejaVu: And Miko... I don't know what to say other than I don't think you know as much about an AR-15 as you are letting on.

 I admit that. I've read a few dozen pages and handled one, never disassembled. I would certainly consider buying one if I could own it. extra $1000 woule not be a big deal in such a serious matter - I only need one serious gun after all and the cost of ammo eventually exceeds the mere cost of a gun. I am not sure that a lower reeliability of an AR, especially when dirty woudl be a problem for me. I do not intend to fight a war with it.
 I would also love to own an M1A in .308 Win 7.62x51 NATO (and leave a .223 weapon for my wife) but that one is also banned.

I seriously doubt that many guns have fewer parts... maybe the AK by a couple of pieces.

 Ruger Mini which is based on M-14 is certainly one of them.


I still don't know why NY would have a ban on the AR-15.  As long as it met federal requirements for a semi auto weapon (no more than 2 ticks on the "assault" counter).  Though... I can understand why California would (they are just plain stupid).

 Socialism. Arbitrary decision. Democracy (not constitutional one) where every right is subject of a vote. This kind of philisophical stuff. They are not stupid - or at least they may only be called stupid for not outlawing a Mini along with AR. They do not thing it's a good idea for law-abiding citizens to have weapons. Period.

eagl: If you get a mini-14, fire the heaviest round you can find.

 Each rifle is unique in what kind of ammo it likes. Some people I know get 1MOA (1 inch at 100 yards) with hand-loaded 40 grain bullets.
 Did you stock-bed yours? Replaced gas bushing?

 Accuirised Mini may and with heavy barrel certainly would shoot under 1" groups with good ammo. But it will not be as light as the original with a  heavy barrel.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 10, 2003, 02:40:47 PM

Quote

I seriously doubt that many guns have fewer parts... maybe the AK by a couple of pieces.

Ruger Mini which is based on M-14 is certainly one of them.[/b]

I don't know... I honestly don't think its possible to get much more simple without having a single trigger to bolt mechanism.  The AR-15 has only 2 real moving parts below the bolt, with 2 pins.  Its pretty simple.  Then there's the bolt and the recoil spring.   Not much more too it than that.

No slide on the trigger or safety mechanism... nada.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Gman on January 10, 2003, 03:34:18 PM

What eagl said, get some nice 77 gr .223 rounds, they'll fly a lot straighter in the ruger.

New toys, did somebody say HK? :p

(http://www3.telus.net/public/gcorn1/g36-2.jpg)

(http://www3.telus.net/public/gcorn1/g36.jpg)


If you guys think Cali and NY have goofy laws, check out the Canadian Firearms Center if you want to laugh for an hour or two.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 10, 2003, 03:57:18 PM

If you guys think Cali and NY have goofy laws, check out the Canadian Firearms Center if you want to laugh for an hour or two.

 At least Canadians never obtained those rights and then lost them. They were nice little subjects and still are. I bet that if Canada revolted in 1776 and 13 colonies stayed loyalists, by now Canada would have had 300 mil people and biggest economy in the world and US area would have been a sparcely populated place.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 10, 2003, 04:01:25 PM

eagl: If you put a scope on it, get a durable one because that big clanky bolt whacking around underneath it will break cheap adjustable scopes.

 Smaller gas bushing and recoil buffer take care of most such problems. Also improves bullet velocity and recoil/flip.

 Also, beware cheap 20-30 rd magazines as some won't feed properly.

 5-rd mags in NYC. 10 rd in NY State, I think.


 Apparently a knowlegeable person can assemble AR-15 from parts rather inexpensively while Mini you have to buy as is. I will certainly try to assemble AR once I move out of NYC.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: funkedup on January 10, 2003, 04:28:19 PM

Don't forget that Miko is talking about the Mini 30 which fires 7.62x39 NOT .223.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 10, 2003, 04:32:42 PM

Most likely I'll go with a .223  (5.56x45 NATO) Mini-14 but I have not made a final decision yet.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: eagl on January 10, 2003, 05:13:52 PM

I'll look into mods if I have time.  As it is now though, if I want to guarantee a hit on something small, I pull out the 10/22, and if I want to hit something big, I pull out the 7mm.  The mini is for shooting coyotes and the like, both 4-legged and 2-legged variants.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Yeager on January 10, 2003, 05:26:53 PM

If yer gonna shoot .30 go for a M1 Garand Tanker.  Best damned battlefield impliment ever devised!

Years back I purchased a CAR-15 for 450$.  After Bill Clinton pushed through the Assault Weapons ban I sold the damned thing for 1800$ and turned around and bought a PCR-5 (same damned gun without telescoping butt or bayonet lug plus two more inches on the barrel) for 550$...its location is currently unknown (WINK WINK).

I used to own an M1 Garand and thought the world of it.  Problem was its size and weight.  Im one of those little guys so lugging the damned thing around proved unfeasable so I traded it for a pristine M1 Carbine.  That one is in my closet :)  Perfect fit!

I wouldnt own a 7.62x39 shooter for anything.  I used to work with an old guy that took 3 of those damned slugs in the abdomin in some smelly place called vietnam.  All it did was piss him off.  Go for 30-06 or 5.56 or dont bother  IMO

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 10, 2003, 05:36:11 PM

FYI:

AR-15 Lower Receiver assembly:
(http://www.ar15.com/content/parts/lower.gif)

Mini-14 Exploded View:
(http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/4770/rugerminiranch.jpg)

It really isn't close.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 10, 2003, 05:40:29 PM

Damn... didn't realize it was a geocities link for the Mini-14... try this:

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Gman on January 10, 2003, 06:01:18 PM

DJ, your exploded AR15 is missing the drop in auto sear! :p

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 14, 2003, 09:15:17 AM

OK, I see.

 AR is somewhat more complex and made to better tolerances. Much more sencitive to type of powder used, ammo quality and mainenance conditions.

 Ruger Mini is really an american analog of an AK - will shoot any crap reliably in the hands of a slovenly uneducated recruit. And accurate enough at distances where such user can realistically engage targets.

 Too bad I have no choice, living in New York City. Of course if I move out, I may go for M1A (semi-auto M-14) altogether. Can hunt with it, can snipe with it, can certainly ruin someone's day with one shot.

 Yeger - it's very strange that you would advocate .30 Garand but scorn 7.62x39. The latter is a much more powerfull round.

 The only way .223 can do serious damage is by fragmenting - for which it needs 2700 fps. That limits the effective range for one-shot significant injury to about 150 yards from standard weapon - a bit further from a mashinegun.
 Some of US troops ambushed in Somali were armed with short-barrel (11.5"?) "carbine" versions of AR and the effective range for those is under 15 yards after which a bullet does not fragment at all but leaves a tiny .22 wound channel. On numerous occasions the hostiles hit with multiple rounds were not disabled and all the US soldier has done by employing his peashooter was disclose his position.

 Not that AR/.223 does not make an effective weapon - just cannot generalise.
 Plenty of US soldiers in Vietnam were found dead with a cleaning rod still in the barrel of the little black "Mattel gun". I am sure the last thought of may was "I wish I had my M-14 back". Vietnamese were notorious for never cleaning their weapons. There was no other weapon on the face of the earth for them to use more effectively than AK-47. The same is true for most drafted americans, by the way - even though a .223 weapon allows to save a few dollars on training by making it unnecesarry to teach a recruit to deal with recoil.
 They should have probably went with a .243 round, ~100 grain projectile thrown at about the same velocity...

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 14, 2003, 10:18:05 AM

when he said .30 he was reffering to 30 calibre in general (both the AK and M1).  The garand is a 30-06... and that is considerably more powerfull than an AK.

And your analogies from somolia don't really add up.  Most U.S. soldiers were armed with M-16s or Car-15s... Thousands more Somalies with AKs.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 14, 2003, 11:35:27 AM

Sorry,

 I thought that M1 Garand Tanker he referred to was a version of an M1 Carbine, rather than much more powerfull .30-06 caliber M1 Garand Semi-auto Service Rifle.

 Of course venerable Garand Rifle is by no stretch of imagination an assault rifle. There was a reason people (germans first) came up with an intermediate round that could be fired from a portable rifle in automatic mode without losing control of it.

 
 And your analogies from somolia don't really add up.

 Why? He presented an anecdote about 3 AK bullets failing to disable a person, I refer you to "The Black Hawk Down" book or recent afghan impressions about multiple .223 bullets failing to knock out an adversary.
 Most soldiers were armed with M-16s or impotent CQB-configured Car-15s - really a room-entry weapons - but the men in demand there were armed with scoped Win .308 weapon, IIRC.

 The number of untrained and undisciplined somali civilians with average IQ of 70 - undoubtedly the result of an environment - dismally battling the handfull of US special ops - not even regular grunts - in defensive urban positions is hardly an indication of inefficiency of their weapons.

 I would not buy an AK as my first choice but I used it - both 47 and 74 - to a very telling effect.
 I'd probably go with SKS rather than AK if I had assurance of not ever facing enemy from a few feet - where auto fire becomes essential. But AK fully deserved it's reputation.

 I imagine a 90-pound vietcong guy firing an M1-Garand instead of an AK after a swim throug a swamp - broken shoulder right there. Of course he would have been safe with an M-16 which would never fire... ;)
 I know for sure americans picked up AKs in Vietnam and used them. My mailman even brought one home.

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: midnight Target on January 14, 2003, 11:40:26 AM

My boss witnessed the durability of the AK first hand.  He was on patrol passing a group of women working a rice paddy. One of the women bent down, reached into the muck, pulled out an AK and started firing.

That is amazing.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 14, 2003, 12:11:59 PM

I'm not disputing the capabilities of the AK.  Its a good rifle.  When "The Tale of the Gun" did a "top 10 most impacting guns of all time" I predicted the AK would make the list.  I also predicted the BAR would make it as well as the Brown Bess.

I'm still not agreeing with overal assesments on the M-16/CAR-15 though.  Taking 3 bullets to drop someone in a situation where thousands were dropped... with very few getting close enough to inflict high casualties on the US soldier means that the weapons were effective.

A situation where 160 held off several thousand with less than 20 casualties does not scream "BAD WEAPON!".

A 308 is definately a more potent round, but there are pros and cons that definately applied there... in size, weight and ammo load.

I'm not trying to say its better than another gun, I'm trying to respond to "it sucks because..." posts.  I'm sorry, but it does not suck.  Thousands of somalies found that out for themselves.

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Dune on January 14, 2003, 12:18:14 PM

The Mini 14 is ok, but the AR is a much better all-around rifle.  Usually more accurate out of the box also.

But, if you want the cream of all asault rifles, save up and buy a FN-FAL.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 14, 2003, 12:53:21 PM

AKDejaVu: I'm not trying to say its better than another gun, I'm trying to respond to "it sucks because..." posts.

 Well, that's not me than. I have quite a respect for a modern M-16/AR-15.
 I wish they chose a better round, since 4.4 ft. lbs. recoil in a 7 pound rifle is way too limiting.
 Even a poorly trained man can handle 7+ ft. lbs. recoil easily in an automatic weapon - AK-47 has 7.3 and most shooters are heavier than 90-pound vietnamese guerillas of both genders. That would have made for a much more versatile weapons and not much bulkier ammo, say based on .243 Winchester (our european friends would call it 6.17mm).

 Of course one can get a weapon - even AR15 or a Mini rebarreled in that caliber - but the practice would be more expensive and ammo supply would be questionable in SHTF scenario.


I'm sorry, but it does not suck. Thousands of somalies found that out for themselves

 I am amased what silly things people can say rendering opinions outside of their area of expertise. I see you are a "enior Research Technician", whatever it means. How many thousand untrained somalis it would take to equal you with whatever equipment they could possibly get their hands on? Supercomputers? AI? Would it make much difference in the end? Would it mean their stuff is not as good?

 I am amased how little apprecialtion you people have for talent, training and expertise posessed by US military and how important those qualities are in combat....


 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Masherbrum on January 14, 2003, 02:55:30 PM

miko,

   Just get a Bushmaster.  They're cheaper and just as "durable" as a AR-15/M-16.  If you do get one, I recommend the readi-mag.

Karaya2

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: superpug1 on January 14, 2003, 04:58:08 PM

I u gotta put people down buy a 1911A1 and put a extended barrel on it with a dot scope and u are good to go.  Or u could always get a FAL YES a FAL get one.  I like Do U. . If u really want a nice accurate gun thats not a ar50 or grizzly big bore than get a Craig. Even thought the ammo is a bit hard to come buy.:) or or u could always get a M1 Carbine, or just he M1 long rifle it self while youre at it.:D If u just wanna defend ur home than a berrata is nice. :cool: Or just a short shot gun.:D :D

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: AKDejaVu on January 14, 2003, 05:45:00 PM

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
I'm sorry, but it does not suck. Thousands of somalies found that out for themselves

 I am amased what silly things people can say rendering opinions outside of their area of expertise. I see you are a "enior Research Technician", whatever it means. How many thousand untrained somalis it would take to equal you with whatever equipment they could possibly get their hands on? Supercomputers? AI? Would it make much difference in the end? Would it mean their stuff is not as good?

 I am amased how little apprecialtion you people have for talent, training and expertise posessed by US military and how important those qualities are in combat....


 miko

I'm sorry Miko, but you are getting quite silly here yourself.  They had AKs Miko... something you feel is drastically superior... and they had drastically superior numbers.  The U.S. soldiers had training on their side.  Training counts... but so do numbers and firepower.  Neither of which you seem to be able to apreciate.  It does not matter how much training you have when 20 people are coming at you if you only have a clip that will stop 10 (acording to your source)... or did military training also extend their magazine capacity?

Miko, you started off saying the Mini-14 was better than the AR.. and it was cheaper.  You've since moved to some anecdotal argument that simply does not hold up, unless Americans were carrying some 20,000 rounds of ammo in Somolia as proof... though you managed to replace mini-14 with AK somewhere along the line.

I work in research, and I work with data.  I work with realizing just what exactly things do and don't support.  Nothing you've said here has been very convincing to me.  Most has been refuted, or is so abstract as to not be remotely impacting.

BTW... any idea how many US soldiers were wounded in Somolia by gunfire?  And how many died from gunshot wounds?

AKDejaVu

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Airhead on January 14, 2003, 06:13:42 PM

(doing Santa Claus voice from "A Christmas Story")

You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 14, 2003, 07:04:02 PM

AKDejaVu: They had AKs Miko... something you feel is drastically superior...

 Never said that, never will. Will never buy one if I have a choice. Just that it was a decent weapon, not drastically inferior.

Neither of which you seem to be able to apreciate.  It does not matter how much training you have when 20 people are coming at you if you only have a clip that will stop 10...

 Those M-16 must have been mirauculous if that was the case. Which itw as not. The somalis were not suicidal. Their culture as most primitive ones did not have a concept of pitched all-out battle. Those guys concept of warfare is skirmish or ambush with minimal risk of getting killed. Those were warlord's militia, not religious troops.
 
 Miko, you started off saying the Mini-14 was better than the AR.. and it was cheaper.

 Better in somre respects - namely reliability and legality. About the price - I admitted I was wrong. I am glad that I was shown a cheaper way to get one.

 You've since moved to some anecdotal argument that simply does not hold up, unless Americans were carrying some 20,000 rounds of ammo in Somolia as proof... though you managed to replace mini-14 with AK somewhere along the line.

 Not really. Just that while AK round is not always a lethal wound, neither is .223.
 And I did not replace Mini with AK - it was just a side-discussion on AK ammo. I am most likely getting a Mini in  .223 anyway - as I've said.

Most has been refuted, or is so abstract as to not be remotely impacting.

 Probably. An talented expert is worth quite a lot of rookies in any fields - warfare, pottery, carpentry, systems design.

BTW... any idea how many US soldiers were wounded in Somolia by gunfire?  And how many died from gunshot wounds?

 Not really. My book list is quite long before I get to that. 50,000 were killed in Vietnam by guys with AKs. So it is at least conceivable that an AK round would kill a person. Unless charlies went in with bayonets...
 I look at bullet stats - weight, energy, caliber. Without fragmentation .223 is an inferior round.

 Not saying that an AR is ineffective weapon - especially in good hands.

 I thought I as good as admitted my acceptance of your arguments above where I indicated my intent of buying/assembling one one I get out of NYC - based on info I got in this very thread. Even before that I indicated my willingness to consider it regardless of the price. If you think that was indication I dislike it and think it worse than AK or anything else, than your logic is surely convoluted. The more I lean towards your point of view, the more agressive and nit-picking your argument becomes. Strange.

 Let me rephrase it again:

 I am persuaded that AR is a fine weapon despite some drawbacks. My research was not thorough enough since I could not buy it now anyway.
 I am gratefull for info how it can be obtained inexpensively.
 I will most likely end up owning one or more of them.
 I am gratefull to people here who came up with info, including AKDejaVu.
 I have no sentimental attachment towards AK whatsoever despite personally using it quite effectively, observed teh effects of use by others  and having quite a lot of first-hand anecdotal data. Also, seing the sales numbers in US. Quite a popular weapon among survival community.
 I am sorry for calling M-16 "Mattel Gun". Peace. :)

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: miko2d on January 14, 2003, 08:06:54 PM

GScholz: The FN-FAL is a battle rifle, not an assault rifle. It fires 7.62x51mm NATO, a full size rifle cartridge. FN-CAL on the other hand is 5.56mm weapon. Completely different though.

 Considering that only sami-auto fire is possible, how does it compare withm an M-14/M1A firing the same round?

 miko

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Airhead on January 14, 2003, 08:10:23 PM

By the time Miko finally makes his choice New York will have a ban on ALL guns and the only firearm he'll be allowed to own is a slingshot. Good thing, given the fact he's European and can't be trusted to own guns.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: bigsky on January 14, 2003, 08:40:09 PM

well first of all you dont need to spend a lot of money to get a good rifle. you sound like your looking for a medium to close range rifle because mini14/30 are. stop looking at rugers, they are CRAP. ruger hasnt made a good gun since Sturm died years ago. the last ruger i owned was a 10/22 semi .22 cal, i traded it off for a toolbox. you dont need a flashy expensive and in some states banned semiauto. i would recommend a winchester. i own a model 94 lever action .44MAG trapper 16inch barrel. they retail for  $300-350 new. with 240grain hollowpoints or wadcutter bullets it will put the hurt on moose out to 150 yards. its small and handy for hunting in thick brush. and fits easely behind the seat of pickup trucks including the small ones. and a old gunfighter trick with lever actions is to pull the hammer back with you thumb first then work the lever to jack another shell in. it makes for very fast reloading for the 2nd shot. there are other calibers too like 30-30( ballisticly similar to 7.62x39mm russian) and dont let anybody talk you into spending more than $600-700 for a bolt action rifle, more than that is waste. weatherbys are just a fancy peace of crap, grab one firmly in both hands and shake it, it will rattle and not the sling swivels. winchesters are good well made guns. i hope that helps you.
 bigsky

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Dune on January 14, 2003, 08:57:23 PM

The FN-FAL (which, if you want to really split hairs is considered a battle rifle using the 7.62 NATO cartridge) is a much nicer shooting rifle than the M14.  Possibly a finely tuned M14 will out-shoot it, but between the two, I much prefer the FAL.

BTW, I own a full-auto M-16 (liscened with the BATF), FN-FAL, and AK47.  I used to own a Galil and MP 5.  My father owns two FAL's, several M-16's (a M-16A2, a AR-15 Heavy Barrel, and CAR-15) two AK's, used to own a M-14, HK 91, HK 93, AUG, and over 20 other full-auto machine guns.  I have fired thousands of rounds through these guns.  Am I an expert?  Nope.  But I have shot them all (and used them in competitive scenarios) enough to have formed an educated opinion.  

But opinions are like other things.  I love the FAL, my dad prefers his CAR-15 and a two friends of ours who are Federal LEO's like their HK's.

But, none of them would choose the AK as the one gun they'd take to war.  It's true the 7.62x39 cartridge is more powerful than the 5.56 and it's almost impossible to break.  However, it is crud, kicks more (especially full auto) than a M-16, isn't as accurate, is noiser (the dreaded "AK Clack" when you take it off safety) is basically the inferior weapon.  Like I said, you can't break it.  

Also, there are several reasons why the US went to the 5.56 cartridge (I don't know if they have been mentioned here).  It was thought the troops could carry more ammo, handle the recoil better and that it was better to wound the enemy than kill him.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: bigsky on January 15, 2003, 03:32:20 AM

actualy after the army did a study and researched the records it found that most draftie troops were not engageing the enemy till they got very close (200 yards)and you know us po folks(poor for those not in US) arent willing to kill each other till its protect your bellybutton time and those you care about (officers not included)this was not the only reason. sgt. york was a good shot but they couldnt  get a bunch these quality guys who knew how to shoot at long ranges. after all what was the government offering in pay that you couldnt get in some dead end job somewhere flipping burgers
 or scrubing toilets. most people would rather scrub toilets than
 die in a rich mans war poor man fight. if you dont believe me look at the headlines to todays news. we are not invadeing north korea (which has no oil by the way) and see for yourself. to make a long story short get your hands on a nostler reloading manuel and check out the calibers. numbers dont lie like governments do. thats why they use varmit caliber bullets to kill people with (like .223 ) which are not good at long ranges.

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Masherbrum on January 15, 2003, 06:45:02 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Dune
Also, there are several reasons why the US went to the 5.56 cartridge (I don't know if they have been mentioned here).  It was thought the troops could carry more ammo, handle the recoil better and that it was better to wound the enemy than kill him.

Yep, have 2 soldiers carrying a wounded man off the field of battle, that is 2 less soldiers to fight your enemy.  

Dune, awesome post

Airhead, something tells me your right.

Miko, BUY A BUSHMASTER $600-$700.

Karaya2

ALSO, Israeli Arms International makes brand new M-1's to spec.  And are accurate.  I think the 888 model number.  It has been a couple of years.  

Title: Need an opinion on Mini-14/30.
Post by: Gman on January 15, 2003, 10:57:05 AM

Multiply what Dune and his pops have by 2 and that's about where I'm at for rifles and f/a's.

If price is no object, hands down get yourself a Sig 550/551, we've been selling them for a year now, and there is a reason that this rifle has one every Nato test in recent years for best main battle rifle/assault rifle.  I'm not sure on legality issues in NYC, but I'd assume that if you can own an Ar variant you could own this.

Every rifle from Swiss Arms comes with a test target, every one I've seen is sub 1 MOA at 300 meters, and I've seen a swiss woman shoot a possible once on the swiss 300 meter course.  Only drawback = weight at over 9 lbs.

(http://www.theshootingedge.com/firearms/instore/stockpics/swissablackspecial.gif)

If price is important, take everyone's advice here and grab yourself a Bushy, since you can't own the DPMS M4's that we use here in Canada due to BATF restrictions on barrel length, lug, and teloscopic stock (unless you want to class 3 it, but then, price is absolutely a concern).


As for AK's, I've used them in the field and on the range, and owned probably 3 dozen plus (Russian, Yugo, Vepr, Norinco, etc), and although the reliability is unbeatable, the accuracy leaves MUCH to be desired.  5.45 is a nasty round, especially if you get 5.45 surplus Russian ammunition, but 7.62/39...well, the discussion about power is irrelevant past 300 meters with both the 7.62/5.56 round anyway, and both rounds will do a number on anything close than that range.