Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on January 06, 2003, 11:01:49 PM
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To visit the graves of their fathers and grandfathers.
(http://www.abmc.gov/bk5.jpg)
BROOKWOOD, ENGLAND AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ca5.jpg)
CAMBRIDGE, ENGLAND AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ar5.jpg)
ARDENNES, BELGIUM AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ff5.jpg)
FLANDERS FIELD, BELGIUM AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/hc4.jpg)
HENRI-CHAPELLE, BELGIUM AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
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(http://www.abmc.gov/lx1.jpg)
LUXEMBOURG AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ne5.jpg)
NETHERLANDS AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/fl5.jpg)
FLORENCE, ITALY AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/sr5.jpg)
SICILY-ROME, ITALY AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/am5.jpg)
AISNE-MARNE, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
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(http://www.abmc.gov/br5.jpg)
BRITTANY, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ep5.jpg)
EPINAL, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/lo5.jpg)
LORRAINE, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/ma5.jpg)
MEUSE-ARGONNE, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/no5.jpg)
NORMANDY, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
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(http://www.abmc.gov/oa5.jpg)
OISE-AISNE, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/rh5.jpg)
RHONE, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/so5.jpg)
SOMME, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/sm5.jpg)
ST. MIHIEL, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
(http://www.abmc.gov/su5.jpg)
SURESNES, FRANCE AMERICAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL
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Somme, France. Looks familiar... by chance is that where they filmed final scene of Saving Private Ryan?
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Well said Toad, well said.
Just makes me want to kick Beetles bellybutton even more.
Ungrateful amazinhunk.
dago
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~S~ Toad,
Putting some things into perspective.
Thanks
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Thanks Toad
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third picture up from bottom Oct..
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Toad I was gonna say "To bomb the crap out of it every time Europeans start thinking they are capable of ruling themselves." :)
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Ah the use of the sacrifices of so many Americans to 'win' an argument in a discussion about whether/why Americans aren't so inclined to travel. Well, unless their government forces them to. This is hereby declared a red herring fallacy.
This link (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) explains just what such a fallacy is.
Extract: "A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic."
Here, the attention has gone from the American lack of interest to travel to the sacrifices made by Americans under orders from their Commander In Chief. It should also further be noted that the author uses another fallacy - appeal to emotion. Hard to argue with all the emotions those crosses bring forth.
I must say however Toad, that your fallacies are the most beautiful and exquisite, often delivered in a very convincing way and with an extremely powerful emotional backing.
So when it comes to grades: A D- for using a fallacy or two, but then an A+ for the type and strength of fallacies used.
I shall now give the audience a moment to wipe tears of their cheeks and present Toad with a standing ovation.
:D
Heh, sorry Toad. Just dragged myself outta bed, and am in cranky mode :D. PTFFFH!
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"Don't like what we're doing in Iraq?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
"Don't like our stance on Israel?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
"Don't like our stance on the UN?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
"Don't like how we're side-lining the principal ally we have in this 'War on Terrorism'?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
"Don't like our cars?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
"Don't like the way we do our steak?"
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
I'm sorry, Toad, but you've just dropped yourself to Beetle's level. Are you going to be pulling out these pictures every time the US encounters flak on these boards? Perhaps HTC should make this a US only BBS, and you have to enter your social security number on the registration form. Unanimity of thought, homogeneous nationality. Nice one.
Spot on, Santa, spot on.
BTW - Dago, threatening someone over a BBS is so...weak and infantile. Do you think it makes you look the tough guy?
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wow, the whole europe vs. america thing is down to this now? pictures of graves? i thought all that animosity lately was just in jest...
toad, you're as bad as the jews who use the holocaust to weigh their argument every time they need to make a point about something.
what are the euros supposed to do now, stand silently with their hats over their chest and concede whatever point you are trying to make because we helped 'em win a war 60 years ago?
you need a little re-education, here's a picture of humphrey bogart:
(http://www.abilene2000.com/icons/Graphics/bogart1001.jpg)
strong, confident, independent and wearing a well cut suit. you make bogie cry with this kind of unamerican sympathy pandering- you do however have a huge new fan base among italian mothers with sons who never call them.
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(http://www.williamsburg.net/images/ya8.jpg)
"This memorial, found on the edge of Colonial Parkway near Yorktown's Victory Center, is a tribute to our Allies, for whom, without their help and sacrifice, the war would have gone on for many more days, if not years. It was the French who helped General George Washington win the Battle of Yorktown. Visit Yorktown and relive the time when the Colonies were liberated from the Motherland, England."
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Don't forget about Kosciuszko.
http://www.kosciuszkofoundation.org/common/thad.shtml
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Shows what happens when too many people have guns. :rolleyes:
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So you see WWI and WWII as another one of your "gun contol" issues beetle? Wow you are even more fanatic than anyone here thought...
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GRUNHERZ - no, it was my way of commenting on the "red herring" nature of Mr. Toad's post.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Spot on, Santa, spot on.
Yep.
Toad, those pictures seem to hint that only Americans sacrificed their people for the sake of freedom.
Where are the British cemetaries, Canadian cemetaries, French cemertaries, etc, etc?
We all lost relatives in the two WORLD wars.
I think that the dead who fill those graves would be ashamed at all of us for allowing our petty bickering to come to this.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you see WWI and WWII as another one of your "gun contol" issues beetle? Wow you are even more fanatic than anyone here thought...
It would be great to have a better/harder gun control and seeing the generals play card to win a war :D (and it would cost a lot less lifes)
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Originally posted by Curval
Yep.
Toad, those pictures seem to hint that only Americans sacrificed their people for the sake of freedom.
Where are the British cemetaries, Canadian cemetaries, French cemertaries, etc, etc?
We all lost relatives in the two WORLD wars.
I think that the dead who fill those graves would be ashamed at all of us for allowing our petty bickering to come to this.
Incomplete list (just for D-Day)
British :
Banneville la Campagne.
Bayeux.
Brouay
Cambes en Plaine
Douvres la Délivrande
Fontenay le Pesnel.
Hermanville / mer
Hottot les Bagues
Jérusalem
Ranville
Ryes - Bazenville
Secqueville en B.
St Manvieu Norrey
Tilly sur Seulles
Canadian :
Beny / mer
Bretteville / Laize
US :
Colleville / mer
Saint James
German :
La Cambe
Polish :
Urville
for those having heard of the project to setup a Moulières at Omaha and were afraid of it the project as been cancelled this summer.
Communiqué de presse - La préfecture communique :
Le projet de moulières à Omaha Beach refusé par le préfet.
Un projet d'implantation de 4 parcs d'élevage de moules sur le secteur d'Omaha Beach a fait l'objet d'une enquête publique au cours de laquelle de nombreuses objections ont été recueillies. Les conseils municipaux des communes de Colleville-sur-Mer, Englesville-la-Percée, Asnière-en-Bessin, St-Laurent-sur-Mer, Vierville-sur-Mer et Trevières ont pris des délibérations s'opposant au projet. De nombreuses protestations de particuliers ou d'associations, en France ou à l'étranger, ont également été reçues.
La commission des cultures marines, consultée le 4 juillet 2002 a, quant à elle, émis un avis défavorable au projet.
Considérant le caractère historique et touristique du site reconnu par un arrêté en date du 22 novembre 1946 et retenu dans une « opération grands sites » consacrée aux paysages naturels de la bataille de Normandie, décidée par le comité interministériel d'aménagement du territoire du 9 juillet 2001, le préfet de la région Basse-Normandie, préfet du Calvados, Francis IDRAC, a décidé qu'une concession de cultures marines ainsi localisée serait incompatible avec la vocation historique de ce site d'intérêt national et international, et a donc rejeté la demande d'autorisation d'exploiter des parcs à moules sur le secteur d'Omaha Beach.
a moulières is this :
(http://www.coquillages.com/images/moule-cotier.jpg)
and this is a moule :
(http://www.csdm.qc.ca/FSeguin/Pedagogie/2e%20et%203e/Camille%20%20Sarah%20Moule/images/Moule.GIF)
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I think that the dead who fill those graves would be ashamed at all of us for allowing our petty bickering to come to this.
Absolutely.
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You gotta admit though that Toads post is an extremely effective and innovative way of making a point. A fallacy perhaps, but *what* a fallacy! Very inspired, quite intelligent, yet with broad emotional appeal, well placed to rally the troops.
Man, they tell me I should take life more seriously. I'm already getting wrinkles in my eyes and around my mouth because I'm semi-smiling all the time (oh, when I'm not depressed that is :D). But life is way too serious for one to take it seriously.
So I still think Toad should be given some applause. :D
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Dago: Well said Toad, well said.
Just makes me want to kick Beetles bellybutton even more.
Ungrateful amazinhunk.
What do people like you trying to claim personal credit for for something that other people did two generations ago think about paying reparations to blacks for something some other people did ten generations ago?
miko
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Santa.... ROTFL
Toad, I know you are better than that.
Just show, as reparation, the dead count for all the countries in WWII, to have the REAL perspective.
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Just to help you:
Perdite militari nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale
Alleati
Nazione morti feriti
-Cina 1.319.958 1.761.335
-Francia 201.568 400.000
-Gran Bretagna 357.116 369.267
-Stati Uniti 405.399 670.846
-Unione Sovietica 6.115.000 14.012.000
-Altri 400.000 2.400.000
Totale 8.799.041 19.613.448
Potenze dell'Asse
-Germania 3.250.000 7.250.000
-Giappone 1.800.000 140.000
-Italia 135.723 225.000
-Altri 884.000 26.000
Totale 6.069.723 7.641.000
(Military losses, civilians not included)
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Another two, each flag represent 100.000 losses (probably civs are the skulls)
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Pacific Theatre
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Who are you trying to fool toad ?
You come here for the female population, I know I did :p
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unsubscribed from this thread
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And check this link:
http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_16.html
http://www.486th.org/Photos/Misc/stats.htm
In 2 minutes of search.
Oh, i realized just now.... the others were only "untermenscht", people from other nations, so not really humans. :rolleyes:
Sieg heil, Amerika!!
Sorry Toad, did'nt resist :D
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Originally posted by Bonden
unsubscribed from this thread
buh bye!!!
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Why can't we just say that the great, freedom loving nations of the world put aside their differences, stood shoulder to shoulder, and defied the most evil dictatorship of the 20th century?
Or is that statement too saccharine?
Beetle, if you want a recent example of what can happen to an unarmed civilian population let me refer you to the recent unpleasantness in Bosnia known as "ethnic-cleansing."
The victims were an unarmed minority of Muslim civilians. Several actions were taken by the U.S. and its allies to bring that lunacy to an end. Air and ground troops were set to Bosnia to act as a peace-keeping force. Also, local Muslim militia and resistance groups were given arms to defend themselves against their murderers.
Typically, after the situation was brought "under control" the Clinton administration tried to convince these Muslim groups to return their arms and ammunition. Needless to say, they were reluctant to do so.
Shuckins
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Why can't we just say that the great, freedom loving nations of the world put aside their differences, stood shoulder to shoulder, and defied the most evil dictatorship of the 20th century?
Shuckins
That's nice.
(Well, my nation was on the other side, but I think it's better for us to have lost this war)
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still amazes me each time I watch a WW2 documentary and they state the daily losses of some of the major battles in the THOUSANDS...
media would have a field day today as this generation doesn't have the backbone that generation did.
to those who have fallen so we may stand today
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Naso,
Mussolini's greatest mistake was in supporting Hitler. He undermined his accomplishments by doing so.
Rommel commended some of the Italian units under his command in North Africa for fighting with great bravery and skill. Italian troops never earned a reputation for cruelty and brutality, unlike the Nazi SS. Many Allied leaders realised that the Italian populace were most unwilling participants in the war, for the most part. The "evil" of that war is most often associated with Hitler and his Nazi cohorts, not with Italians.
Salute.
Shuckins
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Originally posted by beet1e
Shows what happens when too many people have guns. :rolleyes:
Germany had very strict gun control prior to WWII. So, it wasn't an armed civilian populace that resulted in millions of deaths.
I think that tight gun control is probably a necessity for an oppressive dictatorship to survive, whadda you think?
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the reason I visit europe:
beer
wine
babes
the reason I love America
beer
wine
babes
cars
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Good point Eagler. If one or two soldiers die in a foreign land to hostile fire, it's a media circus for days to include a White House press conference. I don't think we will (fortunately) ever see another war on that kind of scale.
As far as this thread...I accept no personal credit for actions I had no personal part in; it's an injustice to the fallen.
I respect the fallen as well as the survivors on all sides.
Thanks for posting these pics Toad You certainly drew alot of fire. In the future, please don't use the sacrifices of the last century as ammunition to fire at the likes of dimwits like Beetle. It isn't proper and it's alot like singing to a school for deaf children anyhow. I did enjoy a few minutes of reflection looking at them, so again.
To those of you who don't like Yanks: Fine. I probably wouldn't like you either. It's ok though, Ive made enough friends abroad to know better than to hold your respective countries accountable for you. Now piss off.
To everyone else: Greetings from the U.S.A
:)
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Originally posted by Eagler
still amazes me each time I watch a WW2 documentary and they state the daily losses of some of the major battles in the THOUSANDS...
media would have a field day today as this generation doesn't have the backbone that generation did.
to those who have fallen so we may stand today
Don't be so quick to judge. Every day I drive by Adriane Mitchell Park on my way to work. SHE gave her life in the gulf war.
I think we still have plenty of heroes.
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MT
never said we didn't have heroes today
what I meant was suppose the first ground action in Iraq gets 1000 Marines killed -in a single day -by some sort of chemical attack by Iraq...
Do you think the media and many others would be screaming for Saddams head or to get out troops the hell out of there? What would have happened in WW2 if everytime we lost 1000 souls the media sensationalized it ... another Vietnam that's what. We'd all be speaking german ...........
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Eagler - you can't compare Vietnam and certainly not any new Gulf war to WW2. WW2 was a just a war as you could ever get - against a perverted, tyrannical power capable of enslaving the whole world.
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I believe I can as far as public opinion goes
If it weren't for Pearl Harbor, all of you across the great pond may very well be speaking German...
The average Joe wasn't concerned with Hitler and his armies.
Not until we were attacked at PH was there a unifed outcry.
I believe we learned from history (knock off the small nutbags before they get to be big nutbags) as other seem to have forgotten..
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against a perverted, tyrannical power capable of enslaving the whole world.
So this is not a good description for the Communists about to take over S Vietnam?
-SW
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BTW - Dago, threatening someone over a BBS is so...weak and infantile. Do you think it makes you look the tough
I expressed my desire, did not make a threat. Please seek help with reading and comprehension. I guess English schools are as pathetic as the dentistry.
"Well we saved your asses, so you should agree with everything we say and do."
How about pulling your head out of your ass? It's more like, Well, we saved your asses, how about not having an amazinhunk like Beetle spend his time attacking everything he can about our country continually?
Toad, those pictures seem to hint that only Americans sacrificed their people for the sake of freedom.
To discuss or highlight one subject is not and should never be taken as an attempt to ignore other subjects. Toad only pointed out that an awful lot of Americans died fighting to protect and free people in Europe, nowhere did he even hint they did it alone. This is just a poor attempt to mitigate his observation.
What do people like you trying to claim personal credit for for something that other people did two generations ago
Neither Toad or myself take credit for what all those brave soldiers did. That is obvious to anyone capable of intelligent thought. You are just looking for a way to attack, and being less than capable, it guess this is your poor attempt.
Just show, as reparation, the dead count for all the countries in WWII, to have the REAL perspective.
Sure, show them all, then consider how many faught on their own soil to defend their countries, versus how many like the USA were not under direct attack or direct threat, yet came to fight to help free the oppressed, the threatened and help restore freedom and liberty?
And YES, I would still like to kick Beetles ass, but no, I am not threatening him. I dont have opportunity, and will not bother. Instead I suppose a better man would just silently pity someone with such obvious psychological problems.
He can try and brush off his nonsense as "good fun" or "just yanking our chain", but it really speaks to his need for attention, his envy of the USA and an attempt to feel better about himself and his country by putting down others. It's a noticable trait among school children also.
I would suggest if Beetle wants something to stew about, how about contemplating and challenging the English desire to be an "empire"? Maybe he can petition his government to get the hell out of Ireland?
Dago
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toad, you're as bad as the jews who use the holocaust to weigh their argument every time they need to make a point about something
Mr fish as a Jew I take offence to your stupid remark.
I can think of six million reasones why us Jews might be a little pissed.
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Oh and toad.
thx for the reminders of the the brave young Americans who died to protect the freedoms of those ungratefull euros.
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I just don't get it.
Why is this Beetle bait so enticing to everyone? He simply points out differences, and is understandably biased toward his own country. Duh!
I think the English are pretty cool. Who else on Earth can clench their teeth while spitting in 3 different directions?
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AKSwulfe - so when they did take it over and win the war, did the world fall? Did Communism reign?
If Nazi Germany had taken over Russia and Britain, do you think the US could have held out?
Dago -
I expressed my desire, did not make a threat.
Does anyone else fail to see the distinction?
I guess English schools are as pathetic as the dentistry.
How breath-takingly original. I didn't realise I was dealing with an intellectual big gun.
Ooops, shouldn't have mentioned that word.
How about pulling your head out of your ass? It's more like, Well, we saved your asses, how about not having an amazinhunk like Beetle spend his time attacking everything he can about our country continually?
How do Beetle's comments have anything to do with me? I'm not his minder. But I do find Toad's post disrespectful.
I would suggest if Beetle wants something to stew about, how about contemplating and challenging the English desire to be an "empire"?
Priceless. Absolutely priceless. The British Empire died on the battlefields of WW1. There was no manpower left to administer it in the post-war years.
Most modern Britons haven't a clue about the Empire. I doubt they would know who Queen Victoria was or what the Raj represented. Any British empire building ended 50 years ago - it's the furthest thing from anyone's mind, I can assure you.
And if I was in any doubt as to your stupifying ignorance regarding the UK...
Maybe he can petition his government to get the hell out of Ireland?
Idiot. Despite what you might have learnt from the movies, the population of Northern Ireland is split 60/40 in favour of staying part of the United Kingdom. And if that's too much for you to compute, that means most of the population regard themselves as British and want it to remain that way. The place would be a civil war battlefield if not for British troops, a la the Balkans.
Now if you have any more ignorant, ill-founded and idiotic assumptions for me to blow out of the water, send them my way.
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No Dowding... but the way you worded it applies just as well to the communists that wanted to invade and conquer S Vietnam. They tried it just a few years before in Korea.
-SW
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Does anyone else fail to see the distinction?
Apparently you are the only one who failed to see the distinction. Nobody else mentioned me "threatening" Beetle.
How do Beetle's comments have anything to do with me? I'm not his minder. But I do find Toad's post disrespectful.
Disrespectful? I find his post a refreshing reminder.
Now if you have any more ignorant, ill-founded and idiotic assumptions for me to blow out of the water, send them
I can think of a lot more, and I will be glad to share them in each of Beetles future anti-American posts.
I know, maybe we can get together at some English Flight Sim based Con? Oh, I forgot, there are none worth mentioning. Too busy in the pub to develop one I guess. hahahahah just made another one. :)
BTW, 40% want you the hell out of Ireland, thats a lot of people who hate your country being on their soil.
dago
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Originally posted by beet1e
Shows what happens when too many people have guns. :rolleyes:
They become independant of Britain.
BTW how did that gun control thing work out for Northern Ireland last century ?
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It wasn't a reminder, like say a Rememberance Day parade is a reminder. It was a counter point to a stupid argument about Yanks travelling abroad. THAT is why it is disrespectful. It was a used in a petty way (see Santa's post for more detail).
I can think of a lot more, and I will be glad to share them in each of Beetles future anti-American posts.
I don't think he will be making any, so why not post them here?
know, maybe we can get together at some English Flight Sim based Con? Oh, I forgot, there are none worth mentioning.
They just had one. Do a search for it on the BBS.
Too busy in the pub to develop one I guess...
Wait in a minute - I thought we some evil Imperialist power a few posts ago? I would imagine it take great organisational ability to run an empire, but now we can't organise a con for a computer game because we are all drunk? A little fickle aren't we? :)
BTW, 40% want you the hell out of Ireland, thats a lot of people who hate your country being on their soil.
Ok, so we completely pull out and let them do what they want. Now we have 60% of people who want us back living under an undemocratic system. I thought you were American? How can you propose such a solution?
BTW, it would be a blood-bath if Britain pulled out - that's why troops have never been pulled.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Ah the use of the sacrifices of so many Americans to 'win' an argument in a discussion about whether/why Americans aren't so inclined to travel. Well, unless their government forces them to. This is hereby declared a red herring fallacy.
This link (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) explains just what such a fallacy is.
Extract: "A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic."
Here, the attention has gone from the American lack of interest to travel to the sacrifices made by Americans under orders from their Commander In Chief. It should also further be noted that the author uses another fallacy - appeal to emotion. Hard to argue with all the emotions those crosses bring forth.
I must say however Toad, that your fallacies are the most beautiful and exquisite, often delivered in a very convincing way and with an extremely powerful emotional backing.
So when it comes to grades: A D- for using a fallacy or two, but then an A+ for the type and strength of fallacies used.
I shall now give the audience a moment to wipe tears of their cheeks and present Toad with a standing ovation.
:D
Heh, sorry Toad. Just dragged myself outta bed, and am in cranky mode :D. PTFFFH!
For this thread to be a red herring form of invalid argument Toad would need to be debating an issue . He isn't. He just stated a fact .
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Oh dear...we have decended again.....
Eagler...just want to point out that your saying that if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour we would all be speaking German is a weak assed thing to say.
Are you suggesting that America only fought because THEY were attacked? So, it had nothing to do with wanting to destroy the will of Nazi Germany to dominate the world...it was all just a big knee jerk reaction? That is just sad.
...and IF I were being antagonistic about the American involvement I COULD suggest that Americans sat back and got rich while Europeans fought that great evil for almost 3 years before you brave Americans jumped in to save us all.
Furthermore, I could also suggest that America waited until Britain (the most powerful nation at the time) bled itself dry on fighting Hitler and then took advantage of the situation to then become the most powerful nation itself.
But...I won't say all that. That wouldn't be nice.
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Hehe....I don't think Toad mentioned that no other country sacrificed their young in this war.....He just highlighted the memorials for the US sacrifices...I'm sure the likes of Curval, et al, can post their memorials as well, and Toad would
those sacrifices.
As far as a Red Herring...probably, but hell, it's no redder or less of a herring than Beetle's posts, so please share your Red Herring indignation equally...or at least be least hypricritical about it.
Cobra
**Edited for the red herring indignation part, I just read that other Beetle thread...Dowding and others have shared it equally...
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sad as it may be, it is history
before PH the majority of cits in the US wanted to stay out of the war
and it is my belief that if those white crosses were not planted over there, german would be your language today
today the US tries to rally Europe support to eliminate small threats b4 they become big ones and she is ridiculed by those most affected if/when no action is taken
damned if she does & damned if she doesn't
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American bashers just can't get over the fact that Liberty is higher on an american's heiarchy of needs than life and physical health .
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Originally posted by Cobra
I'm sure the likes of Curval, et al, can post their memorials as well, and Toad would those sacrifices.
Agreed, but if Toad were to deny the fact that this wasn't in some small way a vieled attempt to say "We Saved Your Ass" he'd be telling fibs.
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...and IF I were being antagonistic about the American involvement I COULD suggest that Americans sat back and got rich while Europeans fought that great evil for almost 3 years before you brave Americans jumped in to save us all.
roadkill... the men that sat back were poor as hell... Great Depression, that ring a bell?
And for a year and a half America fought it's own war on it's own front- in the Pacific. A war America was ill-equipped and ill-prepared to fight.
Germany was only half the problem.
-SW
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Originally posted by Eagler
and it is my belief that if those white crosses were not planted over there, german would be your language today
It would be yours as well.
If Germany won the War in Europe who do you think your major trading partners would be? Germany, Italy and Japan....the axis powers.
But, by saying that those crosses are the only reason we all aren't speaking Germany it tends to nullify the efforts of all those who dies in the 3 years before American joined in, as well as those who died from that point on.
Arrogance of the highest order IMHO.
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I think it's time for the oil conspiracy theory:
Hitler was advancing to southern europe and started invading africa. That was a threat to the oil producing countries in middle east so US had to react before they'd be buying oil from nazi's.. :)
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Toad, nice post. I've been here in Europe for 15 yrs.
I've visited almost every American Cemetary here.
I will continue, till I die.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
[roadkill... the men that sat back were poor as hell... Great Depression, that ring a bell?
Yes, it does ring a bell. The outbreak of a war that the US stayed out of for three years abruptly changed the fortunes of America which was already begnning to recover from the depression. Suddenly America became the richest nation in the world.
Do the math.
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Originally posted by Curval
It would be yours as well.
If Germany won the War in Europe who do you think your major trading partners would be? Germany, Italy and Japan....the axis powers.
But, by saying that those crosses are the only reason we all aren't speaking Germany it tends to nullify the efforts of all those who dies in the 3 years before American joined in, as well as those who died from that point on.
Arrogance of the highest order IMHO.
good possibility as by the time we entered germany would have been huge and America may not have had the fire to stoke its war machine, like PH did
not nullifying anything- they died defending their country
it ain't arrogance, it's fact
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English Flight Sim
They just had one. Do a search for it on the BBS.
Really? Whats the name of it? The only Cons I have heard of held there were related to American based sims.
I don't think he will be making any, so why not post them here?
I hope you are right. I hope he gets the therapy I strongly suspect he needs. I really don't care to get in these pissing matches. I doubt any of my countrymen do either. But, some of us will not stand idly by while that amazinhunk continues his anti-American posts under the guise of "good fun". He can try and pretend it is something differant, but the reality of his intentions is obvious. When you respond, you just fuel the pissing matches. I hoped if we responded in kind or in any negative form enough, he would tire of hearing his country derided and he would cease his pathetic nonsense. So far, his feelings of inferiority and envy of the US exceeds his love of his own country. Sad.
I am done with this thread, I hold no ill will for the English, and count many as friends from my time living overseas.
dago
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Originally posted by Eagler
MT
never said we didn't have heroes today
what I meant was suppose the first ground action in Iraq gets 1000 Marines killed -in a single day -by some sort of chemical attack by Iraq...
Do you think the media and many others would be screaming for Saddams head or to get out troops the hell out of there? What would have happened in WW2 if everytime we lost 1000 souls the media sensationalized it ... another Vietnam that's what. We'd all be speaking german ...........
I do not wish to start any more controversy ... but if America had not sent a single soldier to Europe, the Soviet Union would have defeated Hitler anyway.
How many of you Europeans would relish a Soviet dominated Europe cira 1947 - 199? :)?
In such a circumstance would the U.S. alone been able to spend Russia and their European Satellites into the trash pile of history?
Dowding,
You will always have the Euro/Ami conflict till American tourists stop the "Ain't nuttin here but a bunch of foreigners" attitude. :D
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Originally posted by mrsid2
I think it's time for the oil conspiracy theory:
Hitler was advancing to southern europe and started invading africa. That was a threat to the oil producing countries in middle east so US had to react before they'd be buying oil from nazi's.. :)
Probably get a better deal per barrel from the Germans than we would from Abdul with his son whose body is wrapped in C4 though...:)
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If Hitler had his way, there'd be no Abduls bombing anything. They'd be shoveling eachothers in ovens.
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nm - done
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Originally posted by Curval
Do the math.
My math is just fine.
It didn't recover until 2 years into the war, and the people back home didn't become rich... they finally had jobs.
The only people who became rich were beaurocrats, and you'll find that it was identical across the globe.
-SW
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This is the timeline.....check out 1939.
Timeline (http://resurgent.virtualave.net/Timeline.htm)
I don't want to fight with you man..honestly.
I just hate this whole attitude that we should all bow down and thank America as America "saved the world". I and respect all of the American servicemen who fought as well as the people of America back at home who did what they had to do to keep the fight going.
BUT....America HELPED save the world...it was a joint effort.
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I never said anything that would disagree with that...
but you did say Americans sat back and got rich... they didn't, they just finally had jobs... still paying measly salaries, but jobs nonetheless.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I never said anything that would disagree with that...
but you did say Americans sat back and got rich... they didn't, they just finally had jobs... still paying measly salaries, but jobs nonetheless.
-SW
Wulfe...there were many Americans that got very, very rich from the early war years. But, most simply got a job, you are right. I was generalising in the extreme...which seems to be the trend in this thread...just following along.
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Originally posted by Curval
just following along.
You don't win anything by following along. :)
-SW
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All this america bashing/eurobashing is really nonproductive and stupid . Yes america was the pivotal force that helped the allies win WWII . Yes it is a sad fact and one that I am ashamed of that america did not come to europes aid untill after we were attacked . The battle of britain may have been their finest hour, but it never should've happened . As for the french, french soldiers and legionares have a long history of being world renowned for their courage. People seem to like to forget that, even though they will never let the french forget that they surrendered for a brief time in WWII .
The nationalistic teasing we're seeing in the community now has gone beyond good natured I think .
Those who are causing this rift in the community with their antogonistic threads are doing so because they crave the attention .
Lets stop gratifying them.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You don't win anything by following along. :)
-SW
LOL...does anyone ever really "win" in a BBS debate?;)
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True... right about now would be a good time for the special olympics photoshopped graphic. (Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you're still a tard) :)
-SW
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL...does anyone ever really "win" in a BBS debate?;)
Yes, often. But nobody ever admits to loosing .
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Good point Suave. Without the Brits, to be more specific without Winston Churchill, saying: "No, we won't negoiate a settlement..." American intervention would have been a non issue. Those dark days when England stood alone cannot be forgotten.
To be fair, it took a while for the US people to realize that this wasn't just another European pissing match like WW1, and to realize that the Facists were really as bad as they were. Even in Britain, there were those who somewhat admired facism (not Nazi racial theory per se) and would have been willing to settle if it weren't for Winston Curchill. Never has so much been owed by so many to just one individual.
Of course, the US was still training with wooden tanks at the time so there were some practical reasons to hesitate as well, and we knew that within a handful of years we would be fighting a major war in the Pacific. Pearl Harbor was the stiff dose of medecine that shifted things into high gear, for a country that, like all the others non agressors hesitated going to war for as long as possible.
And, the Russians at the cost of 22 million, made the job that much easier in the end. Given Germany's production and manpower limitations they were bound to lose once either the US or a revitalized USSR ramped up, but it took a team effort to make that happen.
Charon
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL...does anyone ever really "win" in a BBS debate?;)
I do all the time.
Surprised no one noticed. :p
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Dago - you said 'English flight sim con' - read it again, that can be taken two ways.
And for a year and a half America fought it's own war on it's own front- in the Pacific...
That's so untrue it hurts. You're forgetting the aptly titled (;)) 'Forgotten War' fought by British and Commonwealth forces from Japan's involvement to the end. Many servicemen lost their lives in some of the most brutal jungle fighting imaginable. Yet they are barely recognised for their achievements and sacrifices.
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Someone wrote:
For this thread to be a red herring form of invalid argument Toad would need to be debating an issue . He isn't. He just stated a fact .
This is a thread that was created in continuation on the debate on why Americans seemingly aren't interested in travelling abroad. It was a direct commentary at it, if disguised.
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I already know that there were British, Australian and various other nationalities fighting Japan... but not on the scale that Americans were involved in the European conflict (when they got there).
I guess since you threw that in there... Americans were there from the start in Europe to. Albeit volunteer groups, but nonetheless you wanna split hairs, I will too.
-SW
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Originally posted by StSanta
This is a thread that was created in continuation on the debate on why Americans seemingly aren't interested in travelling abroad. It was a direct commentary at it, if disguised.
You're stating a presumption as if it were a fact .
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Hi,
aren't you all getting bored? I mean...all these threads turn in circles...
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Yes we're bored, that's why we're here .
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I already know that there were British, Australian and various other nationalities fighting Japan... but not on the scale that Americans were involved in the European conflict (when they got there).
True, but not your original point.
I guess since you threw that in there... Americans were there from the start in Europe to. Albeit volunteer groups, but nonetheless you wanna split hairs, I will too.
You're comparing a squadron of American volunteers to the 25 regular RAF and Commonwealth squadrons staioned in the Far East by 1942? I hardly call that a token force. Ground forces numbered around 10 divisions on the 8th December, 1941. Sea forces were not insignificant, including a carrier and a battleship.
The Chindit operations in Burma involved over 300,000 men.
I still stand by my comment that the US was not fighting alone against the Japanese.
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Originally posted by Dowding
True, but not your original point.
What was my original point? That America was fighting alone?
You fabricated that one in your own mind.
-SW
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Thank you, gentlemen.
Most enlightening.
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Suave, look at the topic. Look at how Toad historically has made his points.
But alright, if you want to argue technicalities, that's fine. I'll let you. If you're unable to see it, no problem.
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Please note I made no argument whatsover, Santa.
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Please note I made no argument whatsover, Santa.
Okaaay Toad. The title within the current O-Club environment made the argument for you. Was it a spur of the moment thing? It had nothing to do with Beetle's recent postings?
"I know, I'll have a little rememberence ceremony today, title it 'Why unsophisticated Americans Travel to Europe' coincidentally straight after being embroiled in a thread concerning the supposed backwards ways of Americans in relation to Travel in Europe."
Not that it matters, but I find that a little hard to believe.
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Heheh it's good fun though.
I thought ya had passed away for a while there Toad. Late in your responses? Is age beginning to be a factor - all those joints start creaking when forced to move? :D
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You don't win anything by following along. :)
-SW
So what does that say about the US involvement in WW2? :)
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Isn't the 60 percent who want to remain part of the UK protestants of Scottish descent? Not sure...just asking.
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No problem Aztec. I'm sure there are alot of protestant descendants from Scotland, in NI. But I believe in dealing with the here and now, not trying to make up events 300 years ago.
What's the alternative? Forced repatriation of 60% of the population? Removal of voting rights to that same percentage? Remuneration based on historical guilt?
I just find ignorant and plainly stupid posts like Dago's, laughably simplistic.
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I certainly don't have the answers to the Irish situation. Stating that 60 percent of NI is loyal to the crown however seemed to be oversimplifieing a much more complicated issue. No harm intended.
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'Loyal to the Crown' sounds a little too feudal, to me. ;) Loyal to the State and wanting to hold British citizenship is much more accurate, I believe.
I don't think anybody really has the answers, regarding NI. Certainly not me. I think the best anyone can hope is a continuation of peace with as little killing as possible. No-one in their right minds wants to return to the dark days of the 70s, when English pubs were being blown up or the early 90s when high streets in towns were being targetted by the IRA. If you're really interested read up on the Warrington bombings in the early nineties - the use of 'panic then kill' bombs. There's a reason why there aren't litter bins on British railway stations.
BTW, the referendum on the Good Friday agreement which set in motion peaceful resolution of the Troubles had 89% support in NI - that cuts across all denominations/ethnic groups.
Unfortunately, it would seem America has now had its experience with terrorism on home soil, and the restrictions that come with it.
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Dowding - what is the history behind the setting up of Northern Ireland? I remember doing a bit on this at school: 95% of Ireland was Catholic, but the 5% Protestant had all the power and wealth - or something close. I seem to remember that the country was divided -"Catholic Emancipation" so that the Catholics could goven themselves.
Worth remembering that only Ulster (Northern Ireland) is part of the UK. Southern Ireland (Eire) is a separate European Union member state these days.
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"BTW how did that gun control thing work out for Northern Ireland last century ?"
The militants went abroad and bought guns with money largely recieved from the US...this only really stopped after 9/11 when you guys finally realised that terrorism was a bad thing.
Daff
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Dowding:
..straight after being embroiled in a thread concerning the supposed backwards ways of Americans in relation to Travel in Europe."
Embroiled? Check the thread. I posted once. Someone asked how many Yanks hold passports; made me curious. I couldn't find a total but I found that ~6 million get new passports every year since ~'96.
So I posted passport data. Embroiled?
It did make me curious though as to what the reaction would be to pictures of American cemetaries in Europe would be. Thus, I posted this thread with essentially no comment.
Yes, the title would lead those involved in the "traveling Yanks" thread to look it over. That was my intent.
However, I DID NOT take any position or make an argument like "we saved your a**es" or "no one else sacrificed".
I find it very interesting how folks reacted to a simple list/showing of US military cemetaries in Europe. Very interesting to see which emotions leap first off their keyboards.
And that was the point of the exercise. For me. Not for anyone else.
Santa... you'll note I did not comment for ~ 24 hours.
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Originally posted by Curval
Agreed, but if Toad were to deny the fact that this wasn't in some small way a vieled attempt to say "We Saved Your Ass" he'd be telling fibs.
Fibber :p
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Oh, so it was a social experiment? Well I'm very grateful to be a subject of your thesis. Do condescend to let me know when you publish - you can email me the abstract if you like.
You were stirring the pot just to see the reaction. Hey, that reminds me of someone!
"Prepare to deploy smokescreen!"
"Smokescreen deployed." :p
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Curval, you are simply wrong.
Dowding, it wasn't a social experiment. I would call it a "filter" for my own future personal use.
That's the truth, for both of you. If you don't believe it, I can't change that.
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Originally posted by Toad
Curval, you are simply wrong.
I was wrong once...I thought I made a mistake.:p (j/k)
Well maybe I am wrong here, but I'm not quite convinced by you merely saying so.
In all those threads where we discussed travel the majority of American respondants claimed that they had no reason to visit Europe. A few of them claimed that everything in the US is better so why should they go.
Funny, but NOT ONE of them came up with this reason to visit Europe, but now that you bring it up they all perk up and say "Oh yeah...and we saved your ass".
It was as if you were leading them to this conclusion, thats all.
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Originally posted by Curval
It was as if you were leading them to this conclusion, thats all.
Well, that certainly wasn't the intent and I can honestly say that thought didn't cross my mind when I posted.
As I said, what I was thinking of was mostly a "personal filter".
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Come the revolution...? That kind of 'filter'?
Not sure why, but now you've got me really intrigued. ;)
It did make me curious though as to what the reaction would be to pictures of American cemetaries in Europe would be.
I really don't see what you expected to gain by posting it with an obvious link to some petty 'discussion' about Americans travelling abroad.
Why didn't you post it on rememembrance day with a title like 'In Memory of all those who fell in Europe'? I think then you'd get a truer picture of how people see those pictures.
Instead, your post seemed to be a disrespectful use of an emotional subject in an inane argument - no matter how many times you actually contributed to the thread in question.
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No ones biting Daff. Try something with alittle less wiggle and with less stink on it.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, that certainly wasn't the intent and I can honestly say that thought didn't cross my mind when I posted.
As I said, what I was thinking of was mostly a "personal filter".
Fair enough...but you must agree that the effect was there if not the intent.
What exactly is a personal filter and what is its purpose? If it is to store up ammunition for future posts on this BB then be advised that it has provided as much, if not more, ammunition for the "dark side".;)
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This merely serves to give me a personal reference point when deciding whether or not to post a reply in future threads.
As I said, I was interested in the reactions/attitudes, not what was said per se.
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The point of this thread is an insult to the Heroes that occupy those monuments. They Died for Freedom, and they didn't die alone. There are other Equally filled Cemeteries Filled with the Brave Men and Women from France, Britain, Australia, Canada, Poland, Greece, and many other Countries that rose up against Nazi Germany. Not for just U.S. or European Freedom, but for all mankind. To use it to emphasize a point against our most Honored, Steadfast, and Trusted ally is an Insult to our Allies, and to the True Heroes that gave their lives so that you have the freedom to be a fool. I have been to many of those memorials, and have many relatives that occupy them from Scotland, the U.S. and yes. Even from Germany. This thread has made me ashamed that I share the same air with some of you and even more ashamed to call myself an American.
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Originally posted by Toad
This merely serves to give me a personal reference point when deciding whether or not to post a reply in future threads.
As I said, I was interested in the reactions/attitudes, not what was said per se.
Lamest excuse ever? You and beetle were made for each other.
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Originally posted by Jekyll
So what does that say about the US involvement in WW2? :)
Nothing at all. We got pulled into the war by an aggressor, we didn't follow suit.
-SW
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Some of the cemeteries containing Australian Dead:
Heath Cemetery, Harbonnieres, France
Pozieres British Cemetery, France
Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery, Belgium
Tyne Cot Cemetery, Belgium
Villers-Bretonneux Military Cemetery, France
Port Moresby (Bomana) War Cemetery, Papua New Guinea
Labuan War Cemetery, North Borneo
Kranji War Cemetery, Singapore
Kanchanaburi War Cemetery, Thailand
El Alamein War Cemetery, Egypt
Some of the memorials containing Australian servicemen:
Villers-Bretonneux Memorial to the Missing, France
Menin Gate Memorial to the Missing, Ieper, Belgium
Port Moresby (Bomana) Memorial to the Missing, PNG
Singapore Memorial to the Missing, Kranji War Cemetery
Rabaul Memorial to the Missing, Papua New Guinea
Labuan Memorial to the Missing, North Borneo
Also seeing how Australia was involved in the war from the start in Europe, and the Pacific , and also responsible for halting the Japanese advance over the Owen Stanley ranges it would seem to me to use the logics of sacrifice, and the salvation of others in this thread, that infact everyone should be bowing and scraping to our whims!
Tronsky
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Tronski: Boys From The Dwaaarf
:D
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Originally posted by StSanta
Tronski: Boys From The Dwaaarf
:D
RIMMER: Morning, Lister! How's life in hippie heaven, you pregnant baboon bellied space cookie? What's the plan for the day then? Slobbing in the morning, followed by slobbing in the afternoon, then a bit of a snooze before the main evening's slob? God, you're a disgrace to the species.
TOASTER: Would you like some toast?
LISTER: Uh-Uhm.
TOASTER: Some nice hot crisp brown buttered toast?
LISTER: Uh-Uhm.
TOASTER: You don't want any toast then?
LISTER: No.
TOASTER: What about a muffin?
LISTER: Nothing!
TOASTER: You know the last time you had toast? 18 days ago. 11:36, Tuesday the 3rd. Two rounds.
LISTER: Ssshhh!
TOASTER: I mean, what's the point of buying a toaster with artificial intelligence if you don't like toast?
LISTER: I *do* like toast!
TOASTER: I mean, this is my job! This is cruel! Just cruel!
LISTER: Look, I'm busy!
TOASTER: Oh, you're not busy eating toast, are you?
LISTER: I don't want any!!
TOASTER: I mean, the whole purpose of my existence is to serve you with hot, buttered, scrummy toast. If you don't want any, then my existence is meaningless.
LISTER: Good.
TOASTER: I toast, therefore I am.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by TWOLF
This thread has made me ashamed that I share the same air with some of you and even more ashamed to call myself an American.
geez guy, you should go to the military and get your money back-
this is the second time you've mentioned your shame and it sounds like you aren't getting all the accolades and praise you expected as a vet.
you got gyped.
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This thread has made me ashamed that I share the same air with some of you and even more ashamed to call myself an American.
I don't how Mr. Toad thought this thread would turn out, but I don't think it is as he had intended.
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Almost exactly as I had expected.
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Toad - please do the following. Close your hand into a fist. Extend your pinkie finger out from your fist. Place tip of pinkie finger to the corner of your mouth on the same side as your hand. Squint with one eye and say the following:
"Aaah... they are doing exactly as I expected. Pitiful wretches. My plans for world domination will soon be fulfilled!" :p
StSanta, Tronski - hey I love Red Dwarf. I keep meaning to get the series on DVD, but there always seems to be better things to spend my money on. :D
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Toad....
you are evil!!!
:D
See what you've done!!
:eek: