Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rv6 on January 07, 2003, 05:42:59 AM
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Hi all..
I'm not much of a "reader", but could not put down this book. I'm sure that it must've been re-hashed many times on these boards? It gives a huge insight into the combat flight charactoristics of the main WWII ETO warbirds vs each other,, by a guy that flew with them.
The thing that struck me was his repetitive and absolute description of how his P47 performed against FW-190's.. Too many to mention, except the biggie (to him),, namely: The P47 in a dive vs. the 190.
Basically, he said (after stinging an FW in rolling scissors).. ".. he flipped and tried to dive away,, these boys will NEVER LEARN!"
".. the big Thunderbolt roared after him and I had to pull the power to keep from over-running him before shredding him with eight .50's .."
I don't think that the AH P47's v FW's have any noticeable "dive" advantage? Maybe it's me?
Anyways.. great reading. Worth the $11
RV6 ~
(http://lookinside-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35leq0D2OiQzyJ+6zDPGIMA5nUfUVuBJ5Zoegdv3RM/xqYpXWwpZeqcVFW)
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its too vague to percisely say a P-47 accelerates faster then a 190 in a dive. Could be that the 190 pilot was pulling some Gs during the dive i.e. a diving turn, and the 47 could close on him just by cutting inside the circle. Also, he mentioned the "flip" just before saying the 190 tried to dive away. This is a snap roll, and it generaly causes alot of drag, sometimes its a result of a full blown accelerated stall. It can't be done at high speed with the 190, which tells you that the 190 was slow to start with, and even slower after he did the "flip" as its a high drag manuever as I mentioned before.
other then that, I think I should get the book too :)
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ALL Thunderbolt pilots enounciated the same diving advantage over the LW aircrafts. It's just propaganda, I'm happy that HTC straigthened out the legend and modeled the P47/LW dive performances as they should be.
HTC.
A book I enjoyed is the one from Zemke. Good description of it's pilots behavior, his efforts to integrate this new weapon called the Thunderbolt ... and a WOW ending when he describes some of it's captivity adventures.
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Heheehehe.. "propoganda".
To kinda' sorta' reiterate his description..
It wasn't a stall, or snap roll that the FW's did,,
It was a knee-jerk escape or die technique that they did, when (and I quote) ".. looking back and seeing the huge wing full of fire bearing down on them.." (a P47 wing)..
wing tip up, was a visual explanation of the FW going inverted..
".. he rolled inverted, and split-s down into a power dive, smoke rolled out his exhaust chute so I knew he had it firewalled.."
And yet? This Johnson fellow clearly enumerated each of his 28 kills,, about 15 of them were by diving right up the FW's 6, in a powerdive.. ?
I dunno.. I s'pose ya gotta' read the book. Many graphic descriptions of the things he saw, that we in AH don't..
IE: The bailing 109 pilot with P51 in close behind,, german pilot ends up inpaled on the P51 spinner,, then instantly shredded.. etc, etc.. Stuff that most don't think about. Uuugh ~
Later gator..
RV6
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whats the mystery about why a jug out dives a FW?
i mean, would gravity have anything to do with it? the fact the jug was a monsterous brick with stubby wings? :rolleyes:
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Was a great read, enjoyed it a lot.
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Originally posted by rv6
Heheehehe.. "propoganda".
I think Frenchy (being a jug pilot of some note) was being sarcastic.
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Originally posted by ViFF
its too vague to percisely say a P-47 accelerates faster then a 190 in a dive. Could be that the 190 pilot was pulling some Gs during the dive i.e. a diving turn, and the 47 could close on him just by cutting inside the circle. Also, he mentioned the "flip" just before saying the 190 tried to dive away. This is a snap roll, and it generaly causes alot of drag, sometimes its a result of a full blown accelerated stall. It can't be done at high speed with the 190, which tells you that the 190 was slow to start with, and even slower after he did the "flip" as its a high drag manuever as I mentioned before.
other then that, I think I should get the book too :)
Actually viff the 190 would enter an accelerated tip stall at very high speed (318mph) at lower alt (2000m I think). The germans lost a lot of pilots in 42-43 due to this and actually issued directives regarding "dogfighting" the 190 at lower alts to cut down on the losses. Apparently it was a quite violent and sudden stall and difficult to recover from quickly.
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Don't know about that Humble, I'm no 190 expert, but I do know it would take a hell of a stick forcing to get the 190 into an accelerated stall at that speed. I do agree its possible, but in the end its all symantics and dry physics, the pilot would probably be dead of excessive Gs from all these experiments just for the sake of argument.
The reason I said what I said is because there is a very big difference in my mind when a pilot says "FLIP" as opposed to "ROLL".
a flip is harder to do the faster you are flying, and at some point of alt/speed is impossible.
KG45: Gravity has nothing to do with it as its a constant force (ever see a hammer and feather droped at the same time and hit the ground at the same time ? I have :) ), but rather drag coefficient.
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dag and weight
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Has anyone considered the question as to WHICH 190 models are being referred to? This would be a rather important distinction. It is my understanding that there are 190s, and then there are 190's.
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About a year ago I was chasing a P47 in Fw 190D-9. When we were level, I was closing slowly. When he pointed his nose down (very shallow dive), he was gaining. Only when we got to the deck and speed dropped did I start to close again.
This was after a long fight where we had our E quite leveled. The fight included spiral climbing, rolling scissors and finally the chase. P47 could easily stay on D-9 six for most maneuvers except ones where E income is important. D-9 could spiral climb P47 quite easily.
That P47 could do it for a long time, enough to cover a sector from 5k.
Same happened to me in 190A-8 when I flew in the arena. I could catch P47 only when level and on the deck. If he lowered his nose even slightly to follow the terrain, the distance increased.
So, are you trying to say it isn't like that anymore ? Otherwise, it might look as...err, whining ?
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come on...pilot impressions aren't worth toejam. The LWers get crap all the time for posting pilot impressions and pretending that 'cause some pilot said it it is fact.
...and the wieght of a jug is immaterial as far as acceleration due to gravity goes.
I don't know which should outdive the other. But I wouldn't use a pilot's biography to judge AH's FMs. That'd be retarded.
F.
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Originally posted by Furious
I don't know which should outdive the other. But I wouldn't use a pilot's biography to judge AH's FMs. That'd be retarded.
F.
Your are totaly right, except that if you had a little more knowledge on the matter and/or read the entire thread ... it's not "a" pilot biography, but "all jug" pilot biography.
My experience in AH is that if you cruise at 20k and you turnfight a FW-A8, D9, FW-A5 or g10 (dono for other 109s) and you end up in their six, they do a split S and run to the deck... then you will catch up with them ... like never. I did caught a G6 in the CT, but it was after the 20k dive to the deck followed by a 1 sector chase.
The most frustrating is following the FW in a split s from 700y his six, power dive, and while you are compressing at 550+, see him flipflop roll and go away.
In Aces High, most guys fly the ubber stuff like D9 or G10, that's probably why our experience doesn't match WW2 aces experience.
G10 and D9 are probably closer to a P47M than the D series that we have now, which should more match with A5s and F4/G2/G6s.
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hehe Robert Johnson's book has been causing problems in flight sims for how long now ;)
my fav is the dogfight with the spit...
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Your are totaly right, except that if you had a little more knowledge on the matter and/or read the entire thread ... it's not "a" pilot biography, but "all jug" pilot biography....
I read the thread, though have not read the book.
All representations in this thread regarding the p47's diving ability are pilot's descripitions.
Show me in this thread "proof" that a p47 could out dive a 190. The "evidence" in this thread does not include starting conditions, pilot ability, hours in type, maintenance status of craft, types of loadout, etc. All it contains is a memory. And memory is not reliable.
FMs should not be based on what a pilot remembers from a combat sortie.
F.
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Why do folks always discount the views of the people who were actually THERE? The guy kilt 28 planes..nearly all 190's/109s'..but he was LYING..exaggerating..etc (in fairness..Johnson rotated home just before D-Day..I think he was still flyin razorback..doubt D9 was out yet)--BTW..the reason the 190's would always dive out was because that tactic worked fine on spits---whose carbs would cough and spit from negative G's--the jug was the first fighter they ever met that wasnt spit/hurricane
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only older spits had gravity fed carbs.why dopeople always imply they were always that way? sheesh
One point id like to ask is this:
In a high speed dive of say 500 mph+ which aircraft would be able to roll the fastest out of the 190d9, the P47d30 or the P51D?
After chasing a p51d yesterday and finding my ailerons were locking up in my dora only to watch the p51d first roll one way to 90 degree bank then roll to the opersite side and pull up and left hard leaving me struggling even to pull out let alone follow him Ive been trying to find out if this is accurate.
could the p51D outroll and outclimb the dora at high speed in a 40 to 50 degree power dive?
and where would the p47 come in in terms of this situation?
I always thought the 190s had advantage in roll at all speeds but it seems it doesnt in AH.
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out friggin standing question.
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Again, I repeat: I never had the impression I could outdive a P47 in any 190 in this sim. Was I doing something wrong ?
Outaccelerate (by wide margin) and outclimb, sure, but not outdive. Similar for P51.
The only US plane I could outdive was F4U-1D in Fw 190D-9.
Now, Ta 152 is another story. That one is an excellent diver.
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Hazed, there was a chart floating around this board some time ago the had roll rates for 190, P47, and P51 and some others.
A few months ago I did a dive test from 20k for some AH planes. I I started at 200kias level and did zero-G to a 45 degree dive, and used the film viewer to measure speed and alt vs time. Turns out that most planes were very close in performance. Out of the planes I tested the P38 was best (till it compressed) and the spit 5 was worst. But at a given time the difference in speed/alt was never more than 20mph/500ft.
The rest were (fastest to slowest) P51D, P47D30, F4U1D, 190A5, Spit9, but were always within 15mph/200ft of each other. For instance the D30 was always equal or slightly faster than the A5, but was never more than 200ft lower. Thats equivalent to pulling ahead by 94yds in a 45 degree dive. Doesnt sound like much, but pilot accounts dont give any numbers so its hard to compare.
Plus, I cant hold zero-G or 45 degrees perfectly so there will be some variance there. Because of that and how close the results were I couldnt really make any conclusion, other than none of them has a really huge dive advantage (like being able to pull 1000yds ahead)
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im not talking dive speeds or acceleration. Im talking aileron and elevator authority or rate of roll in high speed dives.
in other words which aircraft locks up and therefore reduces its rate of roll.From my chase of the p51d its quite obvious in AH the 190D9 is a great deal slower in the roll at high speed. I barely made a quarter of a roll(locked up in the dora and having to use trim to prevent augering) while the p51d i was chasing easily made a half to 3/4 roll AND pulled out far above me to the left.
does the p47 also roll well at such high speeds? is it correct for p51d to roll so well at high speeds and does the 190d9 really lock up that bad even though it has pretty much the same wing as the 190a8 which doesnt seem to freeze up in the same manner.
how can i find charts on this behaviour?
AH sorry just noticed the link is to the roll charts and not the thread i thought you meant. Ive seen this chart before,according to the charts the 190 (which vers.?) outrolls the p51b right up to 360mph IAS and then the p51b outrolls the 190 by a mere 5 or 6 degrees.(XP-51 even less so at 373mph) Quite a lot less than what i saw.
theres rooms for a change in the version of 190 as I know the dora had a slightly poorer roll rate than 190a8s but as i described above the p51d outrolled me with at least twice the amount i could manage.It literally made me think something was broken on my joystick! :p
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Just be glad none of the three P-47 versions modeled in AH are as bad as the P-47 model in Air Warrior.