Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tac on July 22, 2000, 02:03:00 PM
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One of the little gripes I have with AH is the way a kill/assist is given to a pilot.
As far as I understand it, a kill is awarded to the pilot that did the most damage. However, from what I've observed, it seems the kill is awarded to the pilot that got the most HITS on the target plane.
Many many many times I have seen planes receive a massive dose of lead and fly off and keep on flying as if nothing had happened (and dogfight and shoot down planes and stuff)... and then when I come along and shoot its wing out, I get an ASSIST and the other guy gets a kill. What's up with this?
The other guy spread a lot of lead that did little or no damage to the plane, yet I come along and give the real killing blow and I am not given credit for it!
IMHO, a kill is a kill is a kill. If some dweeb pinged a plane and shot out its elevator, rudder, wounded the pilot, tore up the landing gear, but that wounded plane still managed to get away and limp away from the fight, and I come along and rip its wing out, I should be the one that gets the kill, not the other guy that left the job half-done.Similarly, many times I nurse my 38 on one engine with wingtip gone and my guts lying on the cockpit floor, with no rudders and one 'vator out back to the base, im about to land and get jumped by a marauding enemy fighter... the enemy fighter that shot me up bad gets a kill and the guy that REALLY killed me gets an assist!.
Is there any way to make the server give the kill to the pilot that rips a wing/tail or makes a plane explode?
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Originally posted by Tac:
Is there any way to make the server give the kill to the pilot that rips a wing/tail or makes a plane explode?
You want to start a "steal-my-kill" campaign?
sorry in WWII they credited partial kills if several planes were involved in an enemy plane shot down. Either you implement this or you let as it is. He who makes the most damage is the right owner of the kill, like it or not.
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I agree with RAM. If a pilot works to damage a plane, and another pilot comes and finish the job killing an easy target (like your P38), the one who deserves the kill is the first pilot, not the second.
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It more often happens in the other direction.
Some one pushes a situation to get nearly critical damage on a bogy and then another guy hits it a little and pushes it over the edge(or follows the wingless torso of the boggey down trying to accumulate enough damage on it to promote himself from nothing to assist to kill.
Assuming that you dont know what state the target you are after is in(lets assume it is not black smoking or missing a wing) then I trust the game more than you to know who did the most damage.
I just think that damage after critical should not count for anything. Ie no points for post wing loss damage. Period. The white icon thing in WB looked better to me. It gives an unrealistic level of SA but would seem to lead to more eqitable division of recognition.(but I have never used it on line...)
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Originally posted by Pongo:
I just think that damage after critical should not count for anything. Ie no points for post wing loss damage. Period. The white icon thing in WB looked better to me. It gives an unrealistic level of SA but would seem to lead to more eqitable division of recognition.(but I have never used it on line...)
Hummm...Not enough pongo...
For example, a 109 right now is devilish to ditch if you rip one wingtip(Impossible at all), so if you break half his wing he is doomed. That wont be a critic damage in a 190 or a F4U, but in a 109 it is.
It happened me once that I got a 109's half wing and called it as destroyed (it was) after being bounced by it in my Fw190A8. I said twice on the buffer that the 109 was destroyed and still "someone" (if he reads it he will know who is) came at deck level and killed the falling con (hiya camo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
That was amusing, to say the least, and was the reason for me to change a lot of things, including country and squad.
So sorry the "after critical damage" doesnt work either. It is a bit better than the current system, anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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I by no means want to stir up the flames, but this has to be fixed. I agree with making it so the one who gets the kill is the one who disables the enemy to a point where it is crippled, unable to fight, and unable to ditch. let alone go rtb.
yesterday I was fighting as usual on my P38.
I had a fight with a Niki, and he shot me down (I lost control of plane, there was no way I could survive in any ways) when I was spiraling towards earth, a VERY WELL KNOWN flyer zoomed and blew me up. He got the kill. I posted on MY TEAM'S CHANNEL (I avoid voicing my opinion on these things on channel 1) what I thought of the guy who killed me, and guess what? since he is a well known flyer, many of my own team flamed me without even taking time to listen to why I was pissed at the guy.
I took off again, fought another P38 who after a long and great 1on1 proceeded to shoot me down. As I was spiraling earthsward and typing my hearty <S> to my killer, guess what? said well known pilot dove on me again and blew me up AGAIN
at this point I WAS PISSED. For some strange reason I was more pissed than if the kill was stolen FROM ME.
I talked about it on my team's channel, and.. I got flamed. Why? because he is such a well known guy with so many friends, who blindly ignored my message and proceeded to flame THEIR OWN TEAMMATE. They called me whiner and related me to some other people.
Misteriously, above mentioned well-knon flyer found me every time I took off and killed me with a buddy, no matter WHERE I would take off from, he would ALWAYS find me, 4 times in a row.
You come to your own conclusion on how did he manage to do that..
How does this relate to the original topic? had this problem been solved withing the game's mechanics, this would had never happened. This is a social game, and there are some simple things that can trigger conflict between players. In my case, for the first time since this game came out in beta (I was there) I closed the program PISSED OFF.
People who know me know I am a good teammate, and I will do anything for my buddies.
Most of the people who shot me down in a good fight get their corresponding <S> and compliment.
RAM (if he remembers correcly) KNOWS THIS.
I am not pissed off now. But I feel this problem that might seem small and overlooked on the rush to add new features to the game, can really be a cause for frustration for future flyers, who for the first time, feel the AMAZING thrill of having their first 1on1 kill, expecting to get their kill message on the buffer, to then get his kill stolen.
I will stop babbling now. again, my intention is not a flame war. If any of you feel i'm wrong, please let me know and why.
And I will not name the people mentioned above. And If you were there and you know, please dont come and say it. No matter on whos side you are on. Leave it alone, let it lay..
And to those who called me whiner, and other things, you are still my teammates. Even tho I doubt you will help me in the future with six calls or anything, know that I will help YOU, and get shot down even if it comes down to that just to save a teammate.
<S>
[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Animal:
RAM (if he remembers correcly) KNOWS THIS.
Seems my memory is not what it used to be (humpf...something to be worried about if you are 22 like me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))...
Sorry Animal I have no idea about what am I supposed to know, but for sure I know you are a damned good P38 Pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Maybe your post can make people thing WRONG things, I havent been in MA since 2 days ago as Friday I was too busy and yesterday I spent a lot of time with Ammo and Terracota in a training session.
So it isnt about me who he is talking about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I supose that you say that I know you give a good S! if the fight is good enough. I have fited you and I have received a big S! yes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So you are right, then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Oh no, for the record, It wasnt RAM who I was talking about. He is one of the good ones. I love getting killed by him. One of these days I'll show him... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bah, forget it. My message may be inconclusive and out of point, but thats because when I'm frustrated I cant transfer my thoughts in english very well :P
What I meant is that when I talk about something on channel 1, its either to joke about something (usually its something vulgar, look at my nick) OR to <S> a pilot and ask him stuff or give him tips.
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"You want to start a "steal-my-kill" campaign?"
Read Animal's post above. If you want to steal a kill you can do so already.
What I say is that the kill should be assigned to the pilot that really makes the kill and the assist to the other one who got a few shots on it.
Example:
A pony and a P-38 attack a 190. Pony does a pass and scores a few hits, but the 190 gets no serious damage. The dogfight continues for 30 seconds and the 38 fires one burst and snaps the wing off the 190.
190 pilot bails. Ta-da! The pony pilot gets the kill because he hit the other plane more times than the 38 did (at least that's what Ive seen so far!).
Now think about it.. who really killed that fighter? The pony that scored half a dozen pings and did no damage or the 38 that tore the wing off with 2 or 3 pings?
Now, I would like to have the server be able to determine the "kill" more accurately. If a plane has its engine shot out and is gliding and another plane goes by and makes it blow up, the plane that made it blow up HAS to get the kill. That plane couldve glided home or ditched anyway! (besides, everyone makes gliders blow up, so any arguments here are over with).
I would say to have the server assign a kill the instant a healthy plane (aka, no serious damage like missing wings or missing tail) receives fatal damage (aka ripped wings, ripped tail, pilot dead). That kill will of course, not be announced until the pilot bails or dies.
That way if someone pings a plane and does not kill it, he wont get a kill for it when someone else kills his target. Also, if someone shoots out a wing and the plane spins down and we have someone else fire at it until it blows (as it is now, stealing the kill), the pilot that ripped the wing will get the kill because the server recorded it at such before the other pilot made the wingless, spinning plane a fireball.
Does this make sense? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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If I understand you, you want to award the kill to the last person that shot at the plane. If that is what you are saying then I disagree with you.
How do you know the other pilot was not wounded in those inefective bursts you are guessing about. How do you know he didnt get a control surface damage or one of his two cannons nocked out? I like the current scheme better then last guy shooting. You are only assuming that you did more effecitve damage with your three hits then he did with his 7. The game is telling you different.
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No, what he means is that the kill should be awarded to the pilot who delievered the critical blow.
Joe and Bob are fighting a Mustang. Joe destroys the mustang's wing, but Bob swoops down and blows up the mustang.
In the current system, Bob gets the kill most of the time, wich in my oppinion is unfair.
[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 07-23-2000).]
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What he means is the pilot who did the most damage should get the kill. This happens to me alot to Tac, I encounter a plane that has no visible damage and is flying and fighting fine. I turn him into an air burst and only get an assist . Happens to me alot when I'm using typhoon, so this leads me to believe that it is not he who does the most damage that gets the kill, but the person who has struck the target with the most projectiles who gets the kill .
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What he means is the pilot who did the most damage should get the kill. This happens to me alot to Tac, I encounter a plane that has no visible damage and is flying and fighting fine. I turn him into an air burst and only get an assist . Happens to me alot when I'm using typhoon, so this leads me to believe that it is not he who does the most damage that gets the kill, but the person who has struck the target with the most projectiles who gets the kill .
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There's been a few times when a countryman has a good tumble with an enemy, wounds him, but the guy is trying to fly away. I've gone in trying to make sure the guy bites it and have occasionally gotten the kill. Not trying to steal at all. Other times I get a thank-you from the countryman when they get the kill.
In those cases, I hope people understand that I'm not trying to steal at all.
Now the guys that chase a flaming hulk firing away solid at it - that is blatant and it bugs me to see them yank the credit.
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"What he means is the pilot who did the most damage should get the kill"
Not exactly...
If a pony shoots me up and basically wrecks my plane, but I am still able to stay flying (possibly even ditch or land the plane), that pony wouldve done the most damage, but I would still make it home.
If a FW190 comes along and shoots me while I limp home and HE tears my wing or blows me up, that 190 should get the kill, the pony the assist.
read the last 2 paragraphs of my previous post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well if the 190 tears your wing off or blows you up he did the most damage right .
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No. The pony couldve pinged me with a dozen hits and blow off elevators, rudder, engine, wound pilot, destroy all guns, pierced my beer bottle, nuked my flaps, etc. But I can still fly (or glide) and with some effort land or ditch the plane.
When the 190 pings me once or twice and rips wing off, he isnt doing "the most damage", he is just breaking off a component that is more vital than all the above (the wing! lol).
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I think you made my point. A plane comes along and puts a 100 bb's in your plane and damages control surfaces. Another plane comes along say a 109 and puts 10 30mm rnds into you and turns you into confetti, yet only gets an assist . Nobody can contest that by blowing a plane up or shooting its wings off is doing the most damage . There is nothing more damaging you can do to an aircraft than blow its wings off or blow it up . So it seems that he who has hit the target with the most projos gets the kill .
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Yeah that is what is happening now. A pony can spray you at long range with lots of pellets and do no significant damage (or none at all) and when someone else comes and gets in close and delivers the killing blow, that person gets the ASSIST!
Just now, I fired my entire ammo load of a P-38 into a buff from d1.2k and pinged the buff to kingdom come. Damage to buff? NONE.
Yet later on, when I was landing, I see a 109 dive and deliver a burst into the buff and make its wing tear off.
Guess who got the kill? ME. And this is exactly the problem Im putting up here.
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Tac I belive your assumptions are wrong on how damage is counted. Under your desire for awarding kills if a wing was 99% damaged by anywone and a spit put 1 303 round into the plane, the spit would get the kill. Is this realy what you desire?
What it comes down to is that he who puts the most "lethality" into the plane is awarded the kill. I can't see a more fare way to award the kill.
HiTech
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Hitech... If i pounce someone with my 205.. shoot em all up and end up lawndarting, and that same spit you mention puts a 303 round into it to finish it off, did that spit really get the kill or was it my 205? The only difference is i lawndarted. By the same token, If i pounce a F4u and shoot it up, but he escaped me... i did NOT get the kill. He escaped me, beat me out in the ACM. if he dies 10 mins later 25 miles away someone else... that person who killed him killed him, not me.. he escaped me... I think thats TAC's point of view. Its my point of view as well to an extent... but i don't put much prority into it. Hard to program too maybe... either way its not TOO important... frequency of this problem is only moderate.
Killer sheep are a much greater problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) BAHHH BAHHH
BTW, IF a tree falls in the forest and there was no one to see it fall, did it really fall?
Apply that logic to kill scoring!
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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"If i pounce a F4u and shoot it up, but he escaped me... i did NOT get the kill. He escaped me, beat me out in the ACM. if he dies 10 mins later 25 miles away someone else... that person who killed him killed him, not me.. he escaped me"
Yes, that's exactly what I mean Warchild.
HT, thanks for posting here! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) could you please tell us how the kill is awarded? Is it by hit count or by damage inflicted? Its one of the biggest questions I have.
I was just wondering if there is a way to include a "critical hit" recognition into the current kill system. Like I said above, ripping wing/tail/making plane explode would be the only things that count as "critical damage"... and if at all possible, have the server assign the kill to the person that inflict the "critical hit" the instant it happens (so as to not have you ripping a wing and someone else making it blow on the way down and you getting an assist while the steal-killer gets the kill).
I dont cry foul for this problem, but it certainly gets my "murderous rampage" hormones rolling when I see my kill taken by someone who just sprayed the target with more lead than I did. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tac, here is an example from tonight's flying. My wingman (Mr Bean) tore up a p47 and it was streaming gas and oil and would have eventually gone down, but because he was still flying I "finished" him off by taking off a wing, now Mr Bean got the kill and rightly so, all I did was make sure he didn't get a cheap shot on my wingie, but in fact Mr Bean had taken him out of the fight, I think HiTech is right, it is hard for us to tell how hard a con is hit and who should get the kill I just trust the system and fly on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BigJim
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That is a perfect examply bigjim. Note the word you used "eventually". That jug couldve been smoking and losing gas, but it could still have flown and fought and shoot down people if you had left him as he was thinking it would bite the sheep. In your example, and in my point of view, it wouldve been you that should have received the kill and Mr.Bean the assist. Had Mr.Bean inflicted fatal damage (without ripping stuff out or making it blow) on that P-47, it wouldve either augered quickly (if near deck), or gone into the dive-of-death or the pilot wouldve bailed out. In my opinion, Mr.Bean softened up the target but did not bring it down, literally "assisting" you in the kill.
As it is now, I can very well go around spraying the air with lead, hitting cons without really fighting them, and chances are, when they get shot down, I will get a kill. I do it all the time when im low on E and I know I will die soon.. I start spraying at any con within range. Many a time I hit a fighter which begins to lose some gas, perhaps lose a flap, but that plane keeps on fighting well and swell for a long time. When someone else does shoot it down I get a kill. Cool huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Therein lies the problem.
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If it streams white, it's still in the fight. I try to make a bogy 'pop' as too many times there are vulchers waiting to pick the carcass for the kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
For as many times as I've had assists on bogies I felt I truly dealt the death blow to. And there are other times I happily get kills awarded where all I did was put the golden BB into em. Probably the guy/gal who really hit them hard was already shot down.
Even so. It all comes out even in the wash. Unless you're **MOL** in which case my squaddy bastidges steal ALL of my kills.
-Westy
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What about the planes that aren't smoking, have no visible damage and you shoot them untill they explode and only get assist. Thats what I don't like .
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Tac: It's by total damage inflicted not by bullet count or components destroyed.
Any way tac my basic premis on kill awarding is he who did the most work and is still living get's the kill.
Under your system it's who get's the lucky last hit gets the kill.
Both ideas have merits and flaws it's just my belife that what we currently have is the fair in most cases.
HiTech
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lol thats one way to get your point across (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Trell is refering to my posting same message 5 times. Was haveing some trouble with our internal web cashing making our posts not visible to us. I removed the other 4.
HiTech
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