Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: aknimitz on January 06, 2002, 08:19:00 PM
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Anyone happen to know how Chuck Yeager was first shot down? :) You guessed it, tried to HO a group of FW190s ... or so his autobiography says.
:)
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Tom Blackburn in his book "The Jolly Rogers" also recounts stories of going HO with zekes.
F.
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I don't think many would argue they weren't a part of WWII. However this game has very little to do with WWII. It has a lot to do with simulating air combat in an enjoyable and balanced manner, and nothing to do with simulating WWII.
Nevertheless, I'd wager that most argue against jousting simply because it really doesn't take any skill. Tis far more enjoyable to earn a kill, than joust for it.
With the gunnery model here though I don't know that one could change it even if they wanted to. So like them or not, I don't see them going anywhere.
Vortex
[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Vortex ]
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hehe - you dont think HO'ing takes skill? Thats interesting ... well, I guess you are kinda right. HO'ing does not take skill, but winning 90% of the time does (and yes its possible). Good gunners should eat up HO shots ... :p
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this is the comin grom a guy who was squeakin to me about getting ho'd I ended up just loggin then listening to his crap...
lol
:rolleyes:
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Here we go again...
Torque would HO all the time, and win most.
Fester will eat your lunch if you HO- course if you win he'll call you names. ;)
Eman in WB used to be automatic death if you took him on HO.
Heck, I'll HO if I have the guns and a guy waits too long to try to evade. Even a nip of the aileron will slow any plane down.
Ever meet a Typhie pilot that didn't try to HO you? La7? They gots guns, can't blame them for using them.
If I'm outnumbered, deep in doo-doo, and about to get mobbed, why not try a desperate move to thin the odds? You can't run, might as well take one with you.
Funniest time I ever HO'd someone; I was being mercilessly vultched at a field, probably back about 1.40 or so. I was the lone defender, and this Spit knew I had to keep upping to keep the capture from happening. He was there with a couple of 51's, and since they had no interest in dropping the hangars and I had no interest in score, I kept upping. I knew sooner or later persistance would pay off. It did. I found a break and upped a Spit. I evaded the first two 51 passes and saw the Spit coming back low and right at me. I leveled the nose and fired, creaming him. I got it a moment or two later by one of the 51's. You know what the big-name Spit pilot said?
"Nice HO, dweeb".
Yeah, took BIIIIIIG skill to vultch, mmmhmmmm. Took BIIIIIIG skill to do it with two buddies. mmmhmmmm. I laughed after I thought about it.
BTW- they DIDN'T get that base. ;)
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I invite HO's in my P-47. 8 brownings will do it better :)
Torque HO'd because he flew a C-Hawg...and he was good at it.
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I squeak at a lot of people about a lot of things, dont take it personal :rolleyes:
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Sorry Ammo, I knew torque from WB. You'd better believe he did it there, too, in anything.
Attributed to wrong person!
[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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There are three kinds of flyers in AH:
1) The guy who accepts HOs will happen, do their best, and not complain
2) Guys who do HOs and whine like hell if they lose, insulting the other guy and calling him an HO dweeb
And of course, there are those who think the other guy should avoid the HO so they can win. (unrealistic dweeb)
dago
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Keiren, I remember he flew in the cheap arena in WB's. Dont remember his handle though. I was surprised one day reading here when he revealed his WB's handle :)
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
Keiren, I remember he flew in the cheap arena in WB's. Dont remember his handle though. I was surprised one day reading here when he revealed his WB's handle :)
Torque was ppit in WB if memory serves.
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HOing became systematic in the MA. It's the game to the first one who will bring his nose around the quickest. That's pittyful.
I would love to see how many people would keep HOing so often if everytime they got hit I was slaming a chair in their nose. (Not even talking of putting a bullet in their head).
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Dago ..Right on the money w/ that comment.
Jarbo
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Originally posted by aknimitz:
Anyone happen to know how Chuck Yeager was first shot down? :) You guessed it, tried to HO a group of FW190s ... or so his autobiography says.
:)
yea I remember that, his spinner and I believe his prop came off, had a 20mm land in his wind screen and lost 1/2 of his wing :D
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Originally posted by Dago:
There are three kinds of flyers in AH:
1) The guy who accepts HOs will happen, do their best, and not complain
2) Guys who do HOs and whine like hell if they lose, insulting the other guy and calling him an HO dweeb
And of course, there are those who think the other guy should avoid the HO so they can win. (unrealistic dweeb)
dago
You forgot #4, the guys who are so dumb they think any fire comming from in front of them somewhere is a HO.
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HO's are perhaps the most fun element of AH..To HO or not to HO?....>>>Here he comes!!!It addds suspense to merge and once you learn how to deke them,you'll be at advantage cause while he aims...you have the jump on converting "E" into a high % kill shot...I never HO unless really desperate or if I findmeslf in a FW190a8(30mm's)... :)
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I mostly fly Mossies. You bet I'll HO you.
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I dont mind HO's, usually I wait until they're at 1k then dive and circle anyway and they overshoot and end up a target.
I had a very amusing head on the other day. I'd just scored my first 4 kills in a row in my pony (no im not a newbie, yes im still not all that good) and was coming to land. About 100m off the deck this guy comes screaming straight at me in his LA7, guns blazing. With nowhere else to go I just pulled the trigger, he scored a few minor hits but no problem, I was on final approach anyway and landed safely. He on the other hand crashed right behind me and I got 4 kills for the sortie. Hehehehehe. Thanks to whoever that was.
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I don't get it. If I face a 262 in a hurricane or a spit or a niki in an FW, what am i supposed to do (having only mediocre ACM skills)? Let him zip past me and maneuver for a kill? BS! Half of my chances are in HO. I have faced a few good pilots who have handled the situation well: A slight descent to have me to push the nose down as they gain speed. As I try to pull the lead they slightly bank away from me to make the angle simply possible for me. As i pull my energy away they zoom up and come back down for a kill. My respects for those guys. S! (No whining here...)
I know it's tuff to get your wing shot away in a HO fight. Why didn't you score hits? A good pilot knows the strengths of his plane and if he knows he can beat the incoming plane with other means he shoud avoid HO. He also knows that in a HO attack the skill becomes more insignificant and its too many times a question of luck which one survives.
As I get more skilled in ACM and know the strengths of my plane I surely will try to avoid HO if I know I have more safer ways to win the engagment! :rolleyes:
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my breath smells like cat food.
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Sometimes there is no other way...
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The "Thatch Weave" is a HO tactic.
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If those people complaining about the HO tell you they werent firing for all they were worth during the HO then they are LIARS >>> HAHAHAH. It takes two to HO. you can evade. Ive found that most people complain about the HO only after they have been shot down, but they maneuvered for HO, and ill bet you they were firing also. Just my two cents.
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Players are going to do what they want to do no matter how much you whine, squeak and spit. Just get over it, and learn how to dodge. It's not that hard you sissies!!! :rolleyes:
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Fact: no plane in WWII had a force field out in front to deflect the big bad buwwets fired by the big ole "HO" meany.
Fact: planes shot at the front of other planes al the time in WWII. Just like they shot at the top, the bottom, the sides and the backs of them.
Fact: bullets hurt no matter what direction they were fired at you or hit you from.
Fact: They ARE easy enough to avoid in most circumstances.
Fact: The "it was not real ACM" diaper shod whiners will have to live with HO's. Here in aH anyway. And not only live with it but maybe even evolve by expending that energy spent "whining" into learning to handle and counter them in AH.
--Westy
[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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The thing that I detested the most about AW was the frontal tank armor attached to aircraft.
This armor created the most stupid and bizarre tactics, that were beyond contemplation.
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"most stupid and bizarre tactics"
I agree 100%. Yet some in AW called those tactics "gameplay" and pure acm.
Westy
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i love HO's in my p47, please dont stop HO'ing me. Most dont live to see 500 :cool:
Seriously though there was this new guy in the MA last night, flying a spitV *surpise*..
He came in with a ALT advantage, blew all his E in failed attempts to get behind me and he finnaly gave up and went for a HO, i shredded the poor guy into dust. after that he explained he was new, i gave him a freindly tip .. "dont HO a p47 unless you have to, in nearly any air craft".
I killed him 2 more times later in the night and you guessed it, he tried to HO me both times..
in the emortal words of "the gambler" kenny rogers..
*taps foot*
"You gotta know when to HO um..
Know when to deflect um..
Know when to break away..
know when to gun.......
You dont HO a jug, when your sittin in a spit V, there be nothing left of your dweeb plane... when the shootins done" [/b]
:D
Yea i just made that up.. i should go on the road with this stuff :)
[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Nice poem Am0n! :)
For those of you frustrated by HO attacks, they are easy to beat and will hand you both angle and energy advantage if countered properly.
http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm (http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm)
I love it when folks try to HO me. Although I fly a Jug, I'm a bad shot, so I'll evade and take the free angles and E advantage, thank you very much.
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Im the total opposite Lephturn, a great shot but a lesser pilot.
I dont seek out HO's, avoid them when i have other advantages. But if its 2 vrs 1, or im in another inferior posisition you better believe my 8x50's are heated up.
HO's in the long run do me no good, i dont need to practice my gunnery i need to practice out manuvering my opponent.. all my hours of killing drones, BNZ & HO, took care of the gunnery part.
Thanks for the article/link, ive read it before but i'll read it again.. always good to have a refresher :)
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well lets have a look on HO`s.
When you are going for HO you are decided to give your oponent chance to kill you. But he do not have to accept this challenge. He can evade and he can die while evazive moves. But he can accespt HO. and now you both risk your owen arse.
Do you have reason to to risk when you know your and enmy.`s airplane ? Do you have reason to risk when you think that you are better then enmy ?
well but sometime when i see LA7 1 vs 1 and he run away from my Yak,Tiffie then i turn away and he is comeing back higer and make same sh|+ and running again ... then is time to show him HO.. hehe few days ago i got 2 LA7 sissy working together ... that poor high fast untoughtable LA7 was surprised that he lost HO with my tiffie :D then i killed his friend and proud on my HO mastery i was RTB :D :D :D
sometime its fastest way how to kill those scared lames...
but in serious fight .. thank you i dont wanna HO
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Well dangit, His head was TO me!
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The only time HO's really bother me is when odds are even or worse.. I.E. NME has more ac... and when a pilot in that position can do nothing but HO.
On the other hand, I agree with acceptance.
Learn to deal with it and take advantage of it.. I'm trying just that :)
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"Fact: no plane in WWII had a force field out in front to deflect the big bad buwwets fired by the big ole "HO" meany.
Fact: planes shot at the front of other planes al the time in WWII. Just like they shot at the top, the bottom, the sides and the backs of them.
Fact: bullets hurt no matter what direction they were fired at you or hit you from.
Fact: They ARE easy enough to avoid in most circumstances.
Fact: The "it was not real ACM" diaper shod whiners will have to live with HO's. Here in AH anyway. And not only live with it but maybe even evolve by expending that energy spent "whining" into learning to handle and counter them in AH. "
Re-read this guys--it's right. ACM is all about maneuvering your plane into a position in which you can shoot the enemy--it doesn't matter if you aim for his front or rear end.
Comparing AW's "deflector shield" to AH is pointless. AW had no collision model so all AW HO's would involve firing until you actually flew through the enemy plane (joust warrior), plus AW's hit shells were so oversized that evasive maneuvers to avoid a HO were impossible. When HO's were enabled in AW you could literally open up from 2K away and expect to score hits. AH has the technology to allow frontal attacks without it dominating the game.
I don't "like" HO's either. Then again, I don't like being shot from ANY direction. There is one rule that you should always keep in mind when flying--if the enemy plane's nose is pointed at you and he's in range, expect to be shot at.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by EagleC:
well but sometime when i see LA7 1 vs 1 and he run away from my Yak,Tiffie then i turn away and he is comeing back higer and make same sh|+ and running again ... then is time to show him HO.. hehe few days ago i got 2 LA7 sissy working together ... that poor high fast untoughtable LA7 was surprised that he lost HO with my tiffie
Any La7 pilot that uses a pure HO attack as part of their arsenal of moves will never have a K/D worth mentioning. That said, I use the HO in an La7 only if A) My target is turning toward me and is unable to get a 0g shot at me and B) When out numbered and my escape route is blocked. I do take high angle shots but with the piss poor balistics of the La's cannons and the short clip it's not wise unless you are sure of your gunnery skills.
Taking on any plane in a pure HO with an La7 is just plane stoopid!
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HO's will always be a topic of disgruntled interest. IMHO the only thing truly annoying about HO's is the constant drone about "how easy they are to avoid", which is pure BS. HO's are a 50/50 deal to begin with and attempting to avoid does nothing more than slightly increase your chance of survival, chances increase with distance but in the end, a guy who is determined to HO you and is good at it WILL land rounds on you.
The problem with HO's in AH. Well, there's a time and a place for the HO, but I'm usually doing it "back" or when I've run out of options. Perfectly acceptable and easily recognizable. HO's that I consider unworthy of any respect are 1. Those who develop it as a primary tactice. 2. Dweebs who can't manage any other move. 3. Those who take the HO "because they can". It may be considered insulting....who cares, I'll call'em HOwomen every time and thats that. There is nothing worse than "thinking" you are about to merge and have a kickass knifefight only to have the DICKHEAD yank a HO with no need for it whatsoever...THOSE are the lamers and they deserve to live with it.
This is not WW2, we are not fighting for our lives, home or apple pie. Allowing the HO (unlike AW) actually benefits the game more than it detracts (the AirWarrior HO manuever that became the ONLY manuever). Unfortunately, there will always be nerds who don't care about gameing, fun, excitment, SKILL etc etc....just the chance to make little yellow things fly at another airpane, that is all that matters.
Tumor
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Excuse me, but until you are capable of seeing how I fly through my own eyes, then please do not tell me I can not avoid a head on.
I've been doing it since I began flying here, and the only head on where I've been shot down in- is the head on where I didn't break off.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Excuse me, but until you are capable of seeing how I fly through my own eyes, then please do not tell me I can not avoid a head on.
I've been doing it since I began flying here, and the only head on where I've been shot down in- is the head on where I didn't break off.
-SW
...drone and drivel. I will not even bother to post to your next response S.
Tumor
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If you are at or above corner speed for your aircraft and weight and you can't avoid giving the other guy a head-on shot....
the problem is not with the other guy.
Some realize this early, some take a little longer and some never figure it out at all. :D
Below corner speed is a different situation however.
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What Toad said.
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ofcourse you can avoid HO,,,,,,,,,,,,,over and out.
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It was dark and there was a Spit V in front of my at 1000 yards and I was aproaching at him with good speed. What a present!! A surprisse attack!! Lets try to secure the kill at 200 yards ... ... well, the spit fried my at 600 yards, I was at his 12 and not at his 6 :(
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Vort...
The headons here have nothing to do with the gunnery model. They have to do with the reality model. As long as the only penalty for dying is you have to take off in a new plane...headons will be the tactic of choice for some.
Frankly, I rarely even try to avoid em anymore. I win alot more of them than I lose :D. The only folks that annoy me are the ones that chose to headon from a superior position. If they are skilled, then they either lack the imagination to try for a 6 attack or they are just plane lazy :D.
Whatever...headons are a fact of life in this virtual world. Deal with them, accept them...be one with the front of your plane :D .
BTW, asked the fighter pilot at last year's con about headons...he asked if I was crazy :D .
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Most of the time when somebody tries to HO me, they just give me the opportunity to defeat them in the merge and kill them shortly thereafter. I very infrequently die from HO shots but when I do it is invariably from:
Lack of SA
Lack of E to maneuver
Poor merge on my part
Accepting a stupid HO for no good reason
In other words, whenever I die from an HO it always follows from a mistake that I made. In fact whenever anybody dies from any non-technical (i.e. netlag) cause, it is their fault.
Is it really so hard to figure out that every death was avoidable and solely the fault of the pilot (You flew too close to the damn Ack!)?
Don't fly and you will never get shot down.
Hooligan
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Speaking of headons, I came across this the other day, and
thought it was interesting. Was about French ace Capitaine
Rene Fonck in WWI, not WWII, but here goes...
'He scored his first official victory in August 1916, his 75th official
victory ten days before WWI ended. Twice he shot down six on
one day and on August 14, 1918 he destroyed three in ten
seconds. The three Germans came at him head-on. As he
crossed them he fired a burst at each and hit all three. They fell
near the city of Roye, burning on the ground, separated by less
than 100 meters. These brought his total to 60 victories.'
-from 'Aircraft versus Aircraft' by Norman Franks
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Originally posted by Dawvgrid
ofcourse you can avoid HO,,,,,,,,,,,,,over and out.
Yes, but...
Lately, I've been flying a lot of La-7 and I typically try to avoid head on shots. Maybe I should start flying the Jug and go looking for 'em. My real problem is identifying whether I'm nose to tail or nose to nose and the closure velocity. Quite often, I find myself taking hits after I've pulled my nose off. Unfortunately, my nose is now off and I can't respond in kind.
Sure... sometimes it's frustrating. I understand why certain types cry "Dweeb!" in the MA. They just need to realize that the shooter didn't make the mistake. They did.
So... I guess you can avoid any HO... or maybe Dawvgrid can. I certainly can't but I'm trying. Maybe one day, I'll be able to evaluate the situation and see the angles and closure soon enough to avoid the HO while preparing for a follow-on attack with angles and advantage. That day isn't here yet.
When I shoot you in the face, console yourself by knowing that you didn't leave me many other options and I elected to roll the dice for a way out.
That is... unless I'm doing JABO in a Mossie. In a Mossie, I won't flinch at all from opening up in your face and I've got the conversion set way way out there just to do it.
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If you id an HO early enough, you have an easy kill on your hands.
Case in point. Lastnight while flying the Yak9U, i spot a 109 on the deck, about 2k. I'm at 8k. I fake a power dive and pull back level at around 5k. The 109 is ahead of me and begins an Immelman, then into an HO as I suspected he would. I simply nose down and fly under him. I Immelman and follow. He is back on the deck again and pulls back into another Immelman. I roll left and Immelman as well. When I'm at the top, he is at my 3 oc, nose down going for the HO, but I'm not there. I lag pursue and get the easy kill.
I pretty much expect the HO nowadays. I guess one would say I set it up so that I can avoid it for the kill, lol.
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Originally posted by xxbow
If those people complaining about the HO tell you they werent firing for all they were worth during the HO then they are LIARS >>> HAHAHAH. It takes two to HO. you can evade. Ive found that most people complain about the HO only after they have been shot down, but they maneuvered for HO, and ill bet you they were firing also. Just my two cents.
Actually not true....since I primarily fly the P51D, my lack of firepower precludes HO as a viable tactic. Because of this, I evade all HOs on the merge (or try to). Whats frustrating, are the few pilots (most of which I seemed to face at A9 yesterday after the reset) which knew nothing more than to grab a Tiff, grab 10K and yank their plane around for the HO and hope for a lucky shot. Its skillless pilots like that which give HO a bad name. They die more often than they kill but are satisfied with the outcome when they do manage a kill....go figure.
-Ding