Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: g00b on January 10, 2003, 04:32:07 PM
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I was hoping that HTC might consider changing the ranking system to make "points" less of a factor. Looking at all the top ranking players seems to indicate you need 100+ hours/month to achieve a top ranking. It seems unfair to those who are unable to play 40 hours a week. I shouldn't be penalized for having a life!
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time in game/month is not a significant ranking factor.
plenty of people who play a ton of hours, yet rank low.
if you game the game you can rank pretty high without having to miss any of your so called life.
:D
why would a high rank be important to you anyway?
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Shane you need to go look at the number of hours all the top ranking players play, including yourself at 120 hours for the last tour. That's 30 hours a week! I'm sorry but I just can't compete against that. I feel I should be able to play 10 hours a month and if I kicked bellybutton in those 10 hours than I should be ranked appropriatley. Basically I think the amount of time you spend should have less bearing on your ranking.
Rank is important because there's $$$ involved :)
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Originally posted by g00b
Shane you need to go look at the number of hours all the top ranking players play, including yourself at 120 hours for the last tour. That's 30 hours a week! I'm sorry but I just can't compete against that. I feel I should be able to play 10 hours a month and if I kicked bellybutton in those 10 hours than I should be ranked appropriatley. Basically I think the amount of time you spend should have NO bearing on your ranking.
Rank is important because there's $$$ involved :)
and i wasn't even in the running or trying for the $ last tour.
mooj managed to pocket his prize with 39 hours. 2 others had 60 hrs, some had 120+
it's not the amount of time per se, it's the amount of things those people do within that time. simply put they kill more stuff, do more damage, earn more points. it can be a byproduct of time, but not necessarily.
gv's *do* take time for the most part, it's one of the more time consuming endeavors, but it's still easy enough to get lowered bomber and gv scores (ranks) simply by helping capture bases.
just by looking at mooj, he shows it *is* possible to rank up there with less than 40 hrs.
sooooo... i guess you just need to do as well as he did.
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Time helps up to a point. Time online will get you into the top 250(along with flying all types of sorties), but not much beyond that.
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40 hours is still still 1.33 hours EVERY DAY FOR A MONTH! That's 5.5% of your LIFE for one month at MINIMUM, most top pilots are 80 hours plus. It's just not right.
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Originally posted by g00b
most top pilots are 80 hours plus. It's just not right.
It's not a case of rank = time. More a case of people who are good playing more, and simply getting better faster by spending more time playing.
Don't confuse the symptom for the cause.
Stats and rank are prettymuch irrelevent anyways. The practical use of em is virtually nil.
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I beg to differ, IT IS A CASE OF RANK = TIME. When someone can get 1st place with 10 hours a month I will change my mind. Untill then I think you are deluding yourself...
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Solitaire anyone??
SNO
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You -CAN- get first place with 10 hours.
But the pilots who are good enough to get first place also love the game, and spend time playing it. If you only want to play 10 hours a month, good for you, but don't expect to be able to compete either in ranking or in skill.
Why should they fly fewer hours to prove it to you?
We have ONE stat which is based on time online. EVERY stat is equally important in ranking.
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Ummm no
You cannot get a very high rank with 10 hours a month.....try this:
Fly a few sortes of each type of rank (Figher, bomber, attack, vehicle). If you do very well you will be ranked lets say 150.
now wait
keep waiting
just a little more
Now 2 weeks later...your ranked 600.....why.....simple, as you play less, your rank falls. Happens every time I go on vacation. And no its not just in the 1st part of a tour when rank are being established.
I have no idea what the formula is...but total score....hence hours of play are a factor.
I think that we need some sort of time requirement in the formula, so some schmoe that flys one sorte and gets 4 kills isnt ranked in the top 10. But after 50 sorte, I think total score should have much less impact.
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Originally posted by g00b
I beg to differ, IT IS A CASE OF RANK = TIME. When someone can get 1st place with 10 hours a month I will change my mind. Untill then I think you are deluding yourself...
And what was your K/D, K/T, and K/S for those 10 hours. Also what was your Dammage/Death, Dammage/Sortie and hit % for Bombers, Attack, and GV's for those 10 hours? And finally how many bases did you capture with a M3 and a C47 inthose 10 hours?
I logged about 79 hours last tour and ranked 12 overall. I have left out the total points factor in what I listed above. If you can beat me in all those catagory's listed in less than 10 hours then I will give you my $50.
The only way you will be able to do this is to fly 1 lucky vulch mission in fighter, then another lucky vulch in Attack after you bombed a city or town. Now fly 1 bomber and make every bomb count, now rearm and do it again. Then take a Tiger and blow up aabout 4 or 5 hangers at a airfield and kill a few gv's. After all this catpure at least 5 bases with M3 and C47.
Personally I understand where you are comming from, but do you really expect to get $50 for getting a lucky 10 hours in:rolleyes:
Sounds to me like you are just another sorry ars whiner that cries "it isn't fair" whenever you don't get what you think you should.
This is a game after all and if you can't enjoy flying the 10 hours that you have free to fly without comming here and crying about rank, then you shouldn't be here anyway.:mad:
Ok, im done now, nothing more to see here, please move along.:p
Booky
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i fly 20-40 hours a month and have nearly cracked the top 100 in fighter rankings...but don't think i can do it without a few changes such as a) flying with a big squad - this cuts down on ur deaths as you don't fly alone as much. b) driving a gv, a buff, and a pt more...sheesh, don't really want to do that. The players at the top of the score list do all types of missions (gaming the game asisde) throught the score period. And the players at the top of the score rankings also spend waaay more time in the game than the rest of us -- they do get real good at what they do. Anyway, bottom line is your overall ranking vastly improves with varied missions and success. Don't sweat the score, enjoy the game.
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sorry buckos, but ALF has a very valid point.
I have cracked my rank down to well under the 100 mark several times.
okay, like 3 times.
But i have found that if you dont keep up huge hours playing each day, or if you take a break completely, your rank will plummit.
Eg: A few tours ago i was ranked about 65 or so overall. This was about half way through the tour.
I had logged alot of hours in the first part of the tour and had a streak of good luck going. I took a break of about a week for various reasons.
I came back and my k/d ratio was the same, my kills/time online were the same etc etc.... yet i was ranked about 800 or so.
There IS definatley a correlation between rank and time spent online. The numbers dont lie
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loser, time only affects two things, your K/T and your overall points. And the only reason overall points is involved is because of more missions means more points.
What happened to you is that when you were 65 you prolly had 1 C47 base capture and 1 M3 base capture. Well once you took your break others captured 2 or 3 bases in each and then maybe hit a ship with PT boat torps or rkts. This alone will put your Bomber and GV rank low and then in turn lower your overall rank.
I can gurantee you that I could rank below 100 easy with less that 10 hours of play. But to get in the top 15 you do need more time because you need more base captures, and stuff like that.
But hey, like stated above by me and another, if you don't enjoy it then maybe you shouldn't be here? I mean I know that when I found I wasn't haveing but (back in like tour 2 or 3) I left for a few months. No reason someone should pay to play a game that they find no fun in because they can't get enough time in to get a high rank.
Booky
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Points do matter. Take last month for example, I was on a serious streak (ended by insta-death in a ME163) of 51 kills scored in fighter mode with no deaths, 25% accuracy figure, kills per time was pretty good and kills per sortie was about 6.
And I was ranked 140th in fighters. One hundred and shreckin fortyith. Then after the death I got serious and quit the flyin-to-live rubbish, bumped my score up with more kills and finished 48th.
So apparently a k/d ratio of 51:1 wasnt good enough for the top 100 but 135 kills, k/d of 13:1, accuracy 17% is good for 48th. Go figure.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Booky
"I logged about 79 hours last tour and ranked 12 overall. I have left out the total points factor in what I listed above. If you can beat me in all those catagory's listed in less than 10 hours then I will give you my $50. "
Well I got ya beat in the fighter department with only 4 hours of play (not including points of course). The rest of your stats for last tour are damned impressive and I doubt I'm gonna beat em with another 4 hours of play :)
I just wanted to make it clear that I do think all the top ranking players are very good, I'm not trying to make some whiney excuse or squeak about the game overall, I still enjoy it as much as ever.
Basically, while I do think time should be bit of a factor, I think it needs to be lessened. i.e. somwhere between 10-20 hours should be all that's necassary to wrangle a top spot if you have the skills.
Does anyone here honestly think you can do that? Proof? Thanks for your comments folks, I do hope HTC sees this.
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A Life? wassdat?
Originally posted by g00b
I was hoping that HTC might consider changing the ranking system to make "points" less of a factor. Looking at all the top ranking players seems to indicate you need 100+ hours/month to achieve a top ranking. It seems unfair to those who are unable to play 40 hours a week. I shouldn't be penalized for having a life!
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Rank does equal time.... Exp...
40 sorties per month... 10 sorties per sortie type.. fighter attack bomber etc...
now average 20 minutes per sortie thats 800 mins divided by 60 = 13 hours plus change..
Now considering that 1 of the say 5 or six catagories per rank (8-10 for ground attack) is points thats a 15-20% (fighter rank) per catagory Fighter attack = 10% Bomber 10% etc..
Now say you fly perfect in k/D gunnery etc... but your pts is hosed... that minus 5-15% from you rank in that catagory.
Now considering we are on a curve system as far as how your pts are judged either high or low... The whole system needs some work....
I personally hate kills over time... Kill over time is the most shammed stats we have.. People are pulling like 15 kills per hour average.. now how did they get them 15kills per hour using deductive,, I say pure unbriddled vulchfest...
No freaking way someone can average that in pure air to air...( i know becuase less than 10% of my kills are vulches and my KOT is like 4+....
Also if you crash yourself thats counts as no flight time.... (should be a time penalty everytime you crash say + 5 mins)
so why land killls when it will penalize your KOT....
Why attack deep in enemy territory (my personal favorite.) when you will be penalized for landing all the way home..
KOT is a sham.... Traditional tactics are penalized gamming the game rewarded...
I like these clowns with the 100+ ship gunner kills.. PT boat spawn after sunken fleet ring a bell..... Go figure..
Hitech will hopefully set up a system thats pretty fair... the current one is not... KOT is a sham but at least its fair across the board(meaning i choose the type of mission i run), but pointts is not fair across the board... pts represents anywhere 5%-15% of your total ranking....
you want 5-15% handicap go right ahead...
deny that pts doesn't = rank it does , if you cant see it your blind...
2 cents
DoctorYO
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"Having a life" equates to playing Aces High. Outside of Aces High there is little to no life. It is only natural that those who spend time in the game have better scores vs. those who think there is life elsewhere.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
I personally hate kills over time... Kill over time is the most shammed stats we have.. People are pulling like 15 kills per hour average.. now how did they get them 15kills per hour using deductive,, I say pure unbriddled vulchfest...
Of course it's possible and even likely that 15 kills per hour could be the result of an unbridled vulchfest. However, there are some of us for which that isn't the case, and for which K/T is a good measure of our aggressiveness and willingness to mix it up.
To say that K/T deserves less merit than any of the other stats is silly. Vulching affects K/D and K/S just as much as it does K/T, and someone who obtains 15 kills/hour doing nothing but vulching is going to have obscenely high stats in every category. As with every stat, K/T can only tell you a story if you know how the person flies. It might indicate incessant vulching, or it might indicate lots of base defense or furballing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I do not concur
all this does is promote vulching...
15kills per hour is 1 kill every 4 mins... considering it take 20 secs to get a aircraft airborne.. Base defense cannot come up with that amount of frequency...
Hell i'd be impressed if we went to duelling arena upped at the same time allowed the one of us to shoot the other and repeat and see what type of kills per hour you could get..
maybe 30-40 at 1-2 mins per fight...
Now thats trying to max it so even under opti conditions some peoples score is half of that....
enlighten me ... Im a Rook even in the superb target rich arena that we used to fly in; 15 kills per hour average (note average) without primary vulching is improbable...
15kills per hour is 1 kill every 4 minutes.. Now if you land your kills even landing will take you at least a minute. and thats landing right over the airfield at 1500 ft.... (note average time)
do you see what im pointing to you yes you might be able to justify 15 kills but only thru vulching... and then the transit time back to your base. (or landing at the enemy base (gamey as hell) under the time crunch of 1 kill every 4 mins in near impossible without suiciding yourself, enemy death or other.... (and then you have a 20 sec reup penalty unless its auger hell around you for prox kills)
also note take into consideration that you also have to jockey with other teamates in the defense or even vulching... The numbers just dont jive..
without a vulching denominator.. even with the vulching denominator its rare...
Please think up a scenario where you could get 15kills per hour without vulching and then post it... Then what ever fantastic sortie that you come up with.. multiply that to a constant to form a average...
maybe ill win powerball this weekend even though im not in a powerball state... and have no way to buy tickets.. The wind bringing me the winning ticket 1500 miles to south florida has more chance than any scenario without vulching....
Not a flame on you Todd... you do the math...
2 cents...
DoctorYo
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I am currently 17.388 kills/hr. I think maybe 5 or 6 are vulch kills, the rest are sheer unadulterated furball frenzy kills. My particular style of kamikaze flying often means I'll take 1 more kill rather than make it home. I also fly base defence which is why you'll see many kills of mine are spitV or a6m2, if I can make it off the runway I can usually bag a couple of quick kills in a few minutes. The other key is GV hunting. I love GV hunting, they are like free kills, and worth good perkies too. I can rack up 5 kills in under 5 minutes if I happen upon a bunch of GV's. It is all about aggressiveness . Oh did I mention that the best time to rack up good number is peak hours (5-10pst). Lotsa newbs with no SA. You can't get really good stats later at night 'cause it's all the hardcore players who take alot more work to kill.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
15kills per hour is 1 kill every 4 mins... considering it take 20 secs to get a aircraft airborne.. Base defense cannot come up with that amount of frequency...
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Sure it can, especially if there's a CV parked right near the base. The fights are close, fast, and furious. I seek out engagements like this because they offer the most bang for the buck. Coincidentally, they also increase K/T in a non-vulch environment.
Hell i'd be impressed if we went to duelling arena upped at the same time allowed the one of us to shoot the other and repeat and see what type of kills per hour you could get..
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K/T would be lower in this case than it would be in the MA. A target rich environment is necessary... either furballs or being outnumbered. In a furball, I could probably bag two or three kills in a minute if I'm lucky.
enlighten me ... Im a Rook even in the superb target rich arena that we used to fly in; 15 kills per hour average (note average) without primary vulching is improbable...
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It's not improbable. Hell, I probably average 17 kills/hour, and I've had tours where it was up to 19 or 20/hour. They key is to find fights that are close to minimize flying time. And once in the fight, it's essential to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible. Chances are, BnZers and cherry pickers aren't going to kill as fast as those willing to mix it up.
15kills per hour is 1 kill every 4 minutes.. Now if you land your kills even landing will take you at least a minute. and thats landing right over the airfield at 1500 ft.... (note average time)
[/B]
I find that my flying time is punctuated by boring flights to where the enemies are, then a quickly flurry of killing, then some return time. So once the fight starts, I can easily say that I average more than one kill every four minutes. Sometimes I'll even manage four kills in one minute. It all averages out after that once you return to base and factor in the time spent not fighting. So it IS possible. Of course, it's also possible to achieve a high K/T through vulching, as you've stated, and that's probably the most common way. But it's not the only way.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Very nice goob, (sincerely) last tour you were at 11 and the tour before you were at 10.9 so i think it would be fair to say this tour your having a good run? See if you can keep it up im curious to see ya at tour end...
Note you have a high KOT but your K/D suffers as a result.. becuase you dont land your kills...
61 sorties 44 deaths....
you have no transit time at all... hence your score is weighted heavily... (Note my earlier post I explained transit time)
after reviewing your score i also see lots of la7 missions... spit in second with 29 and 11 zeke kills (50 kills between those two) are your telling the whole truth on 5-6 vulches... and where are the vehicle kills ( i count 12)... Note your Knit biased in your kill stats why? Im not a mind reader so not accusing you of anything but i am skeptic.... based on the data im reviewing...
See what i stated earlier is right here in front of us fellas... If you land your kills you are penalized.
If you attack deep into enemy bases your are penalized.
Vulching is rewarded...
and yes DoctorYO is wrong (might win powerball tonight without a ticket) it may be possible to get maximum gameyness to acheive high KOT over 15 but all other stats will suffer.
Unless vulching is the common denominator...
Not knocking you N00b you fly your style and are very good at what your do... but why should i be penalized for landing kills.. ( you might have rebuttal that deaths should have no weight also, but this is terra not bizarro) and yes i could get my KOT up but most of my kills are over enemy lands not vulchfests (but as i stated earlier thats my choice.)
please show me anywhere in history that losing tactical assets (in this case planes) is rewarded... Maybe a gambit once in a blue moon but a gambit has tactical value. In my opinion KOT should be listed but have 0-2% weight in determining rank..
Now back to the original thread about rank = Time...
Anyone argue this.... Pts is a major factor in scoring... and pts can only be achieved by a high number of sorties.
2 cents...
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Very nice goob, (sincerely) last tour you were at 11 and the tour before you were at 10.9 so i think it would be fair to say this tour your having a good run? See if you can keep it up im curious to see ya at tour end...
Note you have a high KOT but your K/D suffers as a result.. becuase you dont land your kills...
61 sorties 44 deaths....
you have no transit time at all... hence your score is weighted heavily... (Note my earlier post I explained transit time)
after reviewing your score i also see lots of la7 missions... spit in second with 29 and 11 zeke kills (50 kills between those two) are your telling the whole truth on 5-6 vulches... and where are the vehicle kills ( i count 12)... Note your Knit biased in your kill stats why? Im not a mind reader so not accusing you of anything but i am skeptic.... based on the data im reviewing...
See what i stated earlier is right here in front of us fellas... If you land your kills you are penalized.
If you attack deep into enemy bases your are penalized.
Vulching is rewarded...
and yes DoctorYO is wrong (might win powerball tonight without a ticket) it may be possible to get maximum gameyness to acheive high KOT over 15 but all other stats will suffer.
Unless vulching is the common denominator...
Not knocking you N00b you fly your style and are very good at what your do... but why should i be penalized for landing kills.. ( you might have rebuttal that deaths should have no weight also, but this is terra not bizarro) and yes i could get my KOT up but most of my kills are over enemy lands not vulchfests (but as i stated earlier thats my choice.)
please show me anywhere in history that losing tactical assets (in this case planes) is rewarded... Maybe a gambit once in a blue moon but a gambit has tactical value. In my opinion KOT should be listed but have 0-2% weight in determining rank..
Now back to the original thread about rank = Time...
Anyone argue this.... Pts is a major factor in scoring... and pts can only be achieved by a high number of sorties.
2 cents...
DoctorYo
ps LEV 's attack missions 47 sorities 39 deaths... 3.55 kills per sortie... (then you die crash whatever...)
As stated i stand corrected thru extreme situations you can get high KOT but as stated all other stats will suffer...
Lev im skeptical of the scenario you just described your current stats show all spit5 missions.. how is that carrier based...
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bloody double post......
:confused:
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
See what i stated earlier is right here in front of us fellas... If you land your kills you are penalized.
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No, if you land kills your K/D ratio should be relatively higher than someone who does not. That's the tradeoff. Since they're both weighted equally, no one flying style is rewarded disproportionately over the other.
Honestly, it's beginning to sound like you don't feel your particular style of flying is rewarded enough given the current scoring system when in fact all types of flying are rewarded one way or another. From what I can tell, those with the highest fighter ranks rarely are the furball-and-die-a-lot types.
If you attack deep into enemy bases your are penalized.
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Not if such attacks result in numerous kills that you land each mission. Your K/S and K/D should be relatively higher than a furballer's.
Vulching is rewarded...
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You've stated this before as the reason to eliminate K/T, but that's just silly. Vulching increases all stats from K/T to K/D to K/S to hit percentage. Everything benefits. So to single out K/T as being the sole byproduct of vulching is silly and self-serving.
Unless vulching is the common denominator...
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Wrong.
please show me anywhere in history that losing tactical assets (in this case planes) is rewarded... Maybe a gambit once in a blue moon but a gambit has tactical value. In my opinion KOT should be listed but have 0-2% weight in determining rank..
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So grabbing to uberalt, flying alone, using other players as chum, and running at the first sight of danger regardless of actual mission objectives is realistic? The Main Arena is pure fantasy. Most who claim to fly "realistically" do nothing of the sort beyond doing everything in their power to stay alive. That's as unrealistic as suicide furballing.
Anyone argue this.... Pts is a major factor in scoring... and pts can only be achieved by a high number of sorties.
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For the most part, yes.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Originally posted by DoctorYO
ps LEV 's attack missions 47 sorities 39 deaths... 3.55 kills per sortie... (then you die crash whatever...)
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I'd hardly use this tour as any means of judging things. I've barely flown, and the fights have been far and few between. Last tour's fighter score is probably more indicative.
As stated i stand corrected thru extreme situations you can get high KOT but as stated all other stats will suffer...
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Are you saying that my K/D or K/S are suffering? They seem fine to me. I'm also quite happy with my hit percentage considering that all of it is air to air (i.e. no strafing ground stuctures).
Lev im skeptical of the scenario you just described your current stats show all spit5 missions.. how is that carrier based...
Eh? I was referring to base defense with a CV close to the base. Meaning that I'm taking off from land, not from sea.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DoctorYO, What type of flying style do you wish the scoring to promote? This is a real question, because im curious.
Vulching by definition is flying into enemy territory. In fact I would argue that K/T promotes base deffense more than vulching, where K/D premotes vulching more than defense.
HiTech
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DR. YO
I was speaking in general about the GV's. And while I love a good vulch :) I have not racked up many kills this tour that way. As I stated before I have a pretty suicidal attack style, I will not shy away from a HO if I am at the E disadvantage, and I have even been known to go for a ram when out of ammo :) Didn't realise my country killin bias, I'll have to fix that :)
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I see by the quote a post tactic and overall rancor spewing... that shoe must of fit you and touched a soft spot...
I dont consider suicide a style or tactic...
If you do enjoy....
Using your qoute a post discredit tactic.:
You've stated this before as the reason to eliminate K/T, but that's just silly. Vulching increases all stats from K/T to K/D to K/S to hit percentage. Everything benefits. So to single out K/T as being the sole byproduct of vulching is silly and self-serving.
I never stated that ... your speaking for me... maybe your esp is superior to mine cause i cant read your mind.. show me where i stated that .... implied that.... yes your feeble discredit tactics have been exposed.. give it a rest...
Vulching does increase all stats as stated i have no problem with that... but why should a guy who say kills 5 bandits thru vulching and another guy kills 5 bandits..also thru vulching. now guy A dies for whatever reason... and guy B lives and flys home... one guy has a kd of 2.5 and the other 5.0 now heres where it gets good. Due to the fact that the rank system is based on a curve... overalll rank will be affected more by the fella you augers himself... maintaining a above average KD and a superior KOT and the guy B who lands his kill is penalized because transit time home... KOT Curve is higher due to the increased vulch in the main...
The large majority of fliers in this game do not land there kills hence the curve system will penalize those who do... at the same token... most people worth there salt can maintain a decent amount of kills before death... hence using the curve system k/d has less weight.... there is more benefit to die and lower my K/D to raise my KOT as opposed to raising my K/D alone... (I look forward for you to aurgue this one.)
2 cents
DoctorYo
Please post again... be shure to get the last word in, its your destiny... and dont forget the qoute a post discredit words in your mouth tactics, i like those.
:p
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Hitech,
K/D should be the primary factor....
gunnery if used second...
then streaks....
weighted plane score.... exp ( 202 kills are better kills than la7)
dammage per sortie and dammage a death i think currently on on the money...
Bomber stats are also on the money...
if you use KOT lower percentage... of its worth.. right now under fighter stat its 20%
My opinion thats too high...
DoctorYo
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I don't think K/T should be weighed any less that K/D and K/S. I haven't even checked my fighter score in a while (in fact.. I'll do that now!).
Ok, now that I've checked scores, I'll compare em.
My stats: K/D 5.25, K/S 3.18, K/T 10.62, hit% 11.3
Total Sorties: 33, Landed 13, Bailed 2, Ditch 1, 17 deaths
Your stats: K/D 8.08, K/S 1.86, K/T 4.75, hit% 14.2
Total Sorties: 52, Landed 41, Bailed 2, 9 Deaths.
OK, we see here that your K/D is 50% (roughly) higher, my K/S is about 50% higher, my K/T is a bit more than 100% higher, your hit% is 30% higher or so.
You've got about 16,000 points, I've got 9,000 or so. I've flown a little bit less than half your hours (in fighters).
I'm ranked 64, you are ranked 136.
Now... why are the ranks the way they are? Remember that all the categories are weighted equally, so nothing is more important than anything else. The best way to get a good fighter score is to kill fast, kill a lot, and shoot straight.
They also give you a handy little thing so you can keep track of how you are doing against other people in individual categories.
So, we'll go through these category by category. My K/D of 5.25 is quite a bit higher than most people in the MA can manage, so I've got a good rank in that one. I'm ranked 69th in K/D. Yours, at 8.08, is even BETTER than mine... but since both of ours is so much better than the average, it doesn't really have that large of an effect. You are ranked 26th overall. So, in K/D you are 43 places ahead of me.
My K/S of 3.18 is, again, a lot better than most people in the MA can manage. So I'm ranked 27th overall in that category. Your K/S is a very respectable 1.86. Good for a ranking of 169th. As you can see, the K/S category is quite a bit more competitive than the K/D category is. A difference of only 1.32 planes per sortie resulted in me gaining back 142 spots on you. As opposed to a 2.83 difference in K/D only resulting in a 43 place spread.
My K/T is 10.62. While good, it isnt stellar (partly because as Leviathn explained- the shorter the flight TO the furball, the better the K/T.. and I tend to gain some alt before I go in. Once I get 'stuck in' I can probably get 1-2 kills a minute, depending on how rich the environment is). It is good for a ranking of 81 overall. 10.62 kills per hour is just about 1 kill every 6 minutes. Your K/T is 4.75. No offense intended, but that is absolutely abysmal if you are going for overall rank. That will take what would otherwise be a sub-100 fighter rank and drop it like a rock. Again, you can get a sense of how much more competitive the K/T category is than the K/D category- not to many people in the MA can kill very fast, so if you can, you can really get good fighter rank even with otherwise 'average' stats. Anyway, a K/T of 4.75 is good for a rank of 983 in that category. You are still probably in the top 25% of the MA population as far as K/T goes (at least I think there are at least 4,000 people playing this game by now), but it is definately the weakest area. Your K/T works about to about one kill every twelve and a half minutes.
Lastly, there is points. And to be honest, yes, points is the 'great equalizer'. You can take someone who has one AWESOME sortie... landing 18 kills in 45 seconds, and he'll still have a crappy overall fighter rank if he only flies that one sortie in a month. However, I think that is how it should be. The points category gives you a way to distinguish a pilot that is GOOD from a pilot that is LUCKY. It is much much harder to maintain good stats over an extended period of time than it is to have 1 or 2 lucky sorties. Anyway, niether of us are particularly competitive in the points category, me placing 623rd overall with 9,200 points, and you placing 271st with 16,700.
To clarify an earlier point.. once you get in the 'top' of a certain category, it ceases to mean a whole lot as a good way to 'boost' your score against your competitors. If out of 100 people Leviathn places 1st in the K/T category with 20 kills per hour, and I finish 2nd with 10 kills per hour, but 3rd place is 1 kill an hour- I've got a lot of 'wiggle room' as far as K/T goes. I'm going to keep 2nd place unless I go on a super MA tour where I fly at 75,000 feet and never fight for the rest of the month. The same thing happens with K/D and K/S. There is like a 'ceiling' (or a floor, maybe) where once you get above it, it really doesn't MATTER what the individual stat is. I'd say probably if you can get above a 4/1 K/D you will be in the top 100 for the tour (in that category). A K/S of maybe 2.25 would be good for the top 100 (I think, that one might be a little off though). Likewise, a K/T of 8.5 to 9.0 will get you in the top 125 (or maybe 150). From there the only thing you need to do is fly more and kill more stuff to get points.
That is why even though there is a HUGE disparity in our K/D, our rank really isnt all that different in that category- both of us are above that 'ceiling'. However, my K/S and K/T are also above the ceiling, and yours aren't yet.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
I see by the quote a post tactic and overall rancor spewing... that shoe must of fit you and touched a soft spot...
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Um, right. You really hit a soft spot about score in an online game. LOL!
I dont consider suicide a style or tactic...
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Suicide isn't. Furballing with a high probability of death at the end of it is. Feel free to not consider it a valid style or tactic, but you would be incorrect. It may not be your style, or one that you would ever enjoy doing, but the fact remains that it's out there, people do it, and you're just going to have to deal with it.
I never stated that ... your speaking for me... maybe your esp is superior to mine cause i cant read your mind.. show me where i stated that .... implied that.... yes your feeble discredit tactics have been exposed.. give it a rest...
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Well, let's see. I do believe you wrote:
[See what i stated earlier is right here in front of us fellas... If you land your kills you are penalized.
If you attack deep into enemy bases your are penalized.
Vulching is rewarded...
And my point to that was that vulching rewards everything, including K/T. First, as HiTech stated, vulching does involving flying into enemy territory. And second, if you believe K/D should be rewarded disproportionately (as you've told HiTech), you must realize that this stat may also be gamed through vulching or other completely unrealistic tactics. Seriously, you're coming across here as someone who flies very cautiously, flies to live, and picks your encounters very carefully. There's nothing wrong with that, and I never stated that there was, but to expect that this flying style will or should be rewarded greater than others is silly and self-serving. That, and vulching all the time improves K/D greater than careful flying ever could. So why not just come out against vulching in general rather than K/T in particular?
Vulching does increase all stats as stated i have no problem with that... but why should a guy who say kills 5 bandits thru vulching and another guy kills 5 bandits..also thru vulching. now guy A dies for whatever reason... and guy B lives and flys home... one guy has a kd of 2.5 and the other 5.0 now heres where it gets good. Due to the fact that the rank system is based on a curve... overalll rank will be affected more by the fella you augers himself... maintaining a above average KD and a superior KOT and the guy B who lands his kill is penalized because transit time home... KOT Curve is higher due to the increased vulch in the main...
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That doesn't make any sense. Overall rank isn't based on a curve; it's based on the average of your rank in all of the individual categories (Fighter, Bomber, Attack, Vehicle), which themselves are figured by your average rank in each category (K/D, K/S, K/T, hit percentage, and points for fighters). So the first guy will rank lower than the second in K/D but higher in K/T and vice-versa... I don't see the problem with this, as the difference in time will and should be very small. You overstate the case.
The large majority of fliers in this game do not land there kills hence the curve system will penalize those who do... at the same token... most people worth there salt can maintain a decent amount of kills before death... hence using the curve system k/d has less weight....
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I see a lot more people with K/T over 10 than I see with K/D over 3. It should be a lot easier for a seasoned pilot worth his salt to rank very highly in K/D than it would be for some average guy to rank highly in K/T.
Please post again... be shure to get the last word in, its your destiny... and dont forget the qoute a post discredit words in your mouth tactics, i like those.
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You have issues.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DoctorYO, Not jumping on you, you answered how you wish scoring to be. Thats not what im asking.
Im asking what type of flying style you would like to promote.
B&Z, Furball, mission based, turn fighting,running away, energy tatics, bombing, ground target attacking. Or describe it anyway you wish, these were just some examples.
HiTech
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Hitech! Since you seem to be watching this thread, can you maybe answer the original question for me? What do you think about making "time" a bit less of a factor in overall ranking? Just curious what your take on it is? Thanks for your time, it has been fun seeing your presence online and in the game
. And BTW I like the current ranking balance of the various categories, with the exception of points of course....
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As stated earlier I dont vulch rarely i do but thats to prevent them from upping and downing our goon...
During base capture im the guy who sets up the barcap so that the enemy doesn't up a base away and rain on our capture...
Now see thats a team thing im doing im helping the overall effort but yes my KOT as you state is Abysmal....
why penalize me. for using tactics...
I honestly think at times ive prevented whole counter attacks from forming by harassing anything that moves deep in enemy territory... I get no bonus for this.. nor do i want one but to be shafted in a catagory for 20% worth.. is bad..
As where if i vulchalot (no relation to sir mixalot) And then auger to prevent landing.. my KOT will jump thru the roof... Bonus.... IMO Thats gamey as hell...
as I stated earlier... there is more curve to KOT than. K/D.. and hence its weighted more...
For todds argument that K/D should be weighted the same as KOT..
Erich Hartman... so many kills no deaths
Sakai.... so many kills no deaths
and the list go on and on....
every book / wings program etc.. always lists the kills to death of the particular fighter .... f6 14-1
f4 11-1 loss ratio... etc... etc....
This i why i rate this skill so highly... (you call it a style) This is a ww2 game... aces were determined by their ability to kill the enemy and survive....
now if you want to promote vulching ramming, augering , and overall loss of attrition resources as some skill or style. I just dont see it... Maybe im off my rocker.. Andy Rooney style
maybe im from bizarro and i got it all wrong....
Todd I knew you would let me. the quote a post rancor very nice ..
:cool:
DoctorYO
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I agree with YO that surviving the mission is the more realistic way to fly. Getting more kills at the expense of your own life will give you a better rank. I think the solution is to simply give a bigger perk bonus for landing the mission. There is a balance between getting better rank for getting that one more kill even though you died and getting better rank because you made it home. When you have a big enough perk bonus for landing that even I will opt for a safe return over one last kamikaze kill that balance has been achieved.
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Goob: Points are the equalizer, it's harder to run high stats for a longer period of time. It also promotes living by wanting to RTB to get 4 times as many points.
DoctorYO, so if I parphrase what your saying it's you wish to promote a more "realistic" style of flying?
BTW on a side note, not sure but wasn't harman shot down a few times?
HiTech
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Hartman was shot down 6? times
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Originally posted by Pongo
Hartman was shot down 6? times
The number of top scoreing ww2 aces that where shot down themselves is very high. The number that landed with dud cannon rounds in thier aircraft was also very high. In our game those would be kills as there are no duds.
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Sakai was shot down too. Of course maybe it's the "death" part that isn't registering right :)
In the end, the very type of flying that Dr. Yo is endorsing is promoted all the time. In special events. I know that's probably not a satisfactory answer, but that's where I go to find it.
-Sik
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Went and looked it up, under our score system hartman would be 352/(16 + 1)
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Bet his K/S and K/T would be LOUSY though ;) :D
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
This i why i rate this skill so highly... (you call it a style) This is a ww2 game... aces were determined by their ability to kill the enemy and survive....
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I can guarantee you that however you're flying in the Main Arena is nowhere close to how any of the aces you've just mentioned flew in real life.
These were guys with mission objectives as well as lives to protect (not necessarily their own). The engaged when they had alt and numbers advantages, and they engaged when they were totally outnumbered and outclassed. Why? Because that was their job and their duty. If you're going to compare what you do to Hartmann or Sakai, I suggest you allow yourself to be outnumbered at least 20 to 1 in every engagement while attempting to achieve a real mission objective other than simple survival. Bringing home your wingman and fellow squadmates will be essential, as killing numerous enemies while losing the rest of your flight would be considered a mission failure.
now if you want to promote vulching ramming, augering , and overall loss of attrition resources as some skill or style. I just dont see it... Maybe im off my rocker.. Andy Rooney style
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I promote ramming? Wow, please quote where I say that.
maybe im from bizarro and i got it all wrong....
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Yes, you have a few things fundamentally misunderstood. The first is this belief that your flying style (and it is a style, not a skill, though you may skillfully fly using that style) is the only valid one. The second mistake you make is assuming that the way you fly even remotely approximates reality.
Todd I knew you would let me. the quote a post rancor very nice ..
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I won't even pretend to understand what that's supposed to mean.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hrm. Time does matter, because as you idle and the other lusers play your kills and points go down in relation to everyone elses, and your ranking drops.
I do have a suggestion, though. Why not add a "streak" factor. Landings, bails, and ditches don't stop the streak, captures and deaths do. Hartmann would end up with a K/D of 352/(16+1), but a streak of 352. If you wanted to get real clever (and slow the server down with math) you can make chances of successfully executing your SE&E (it became SERE after my time) training based on your point score; the more points, the greater the chances of escaping (assuming you don't bail on the enemy tower).
That would support the whole concept of flying to live; defense and intelligent offence. It would also give you some incentive (aside from raw points) to bring your machine home.
Not to mention making the streak people, of which I'm one, happy.
On a side note, just for grins one month I score potatod. I suck, plain and simple, but I was still ranked 74th for a while. It's not a hard thing to manipulate.
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HT what im saying is that you can fly any style you want... You want to furball and mix it up go for it... you want e fight go for it...
Im not trying to force peoplel into any style... Im just saying that K/D is not weighted enough... and KOT is weighted too much..
Style and suicide tactics is like apples and oranges...
Style is the method of how you get your kills... suicide tactics is suicide any way you look at it... IF you die in action a quick fix to the system would be a +2-5 mins added to your flight time... (why shouldn't you get that penalty... you got killed)
Your buddy who was in the same furball no matter what style he flys still has to RTB and that counts toward his KOT.. why should someone who dies be exempt from this...
that way everyone can fly whatever style they want... and exploiting holes in the scoring system would be stemmed.
the Turn and Burners can turn and burn... Vulchers can vulch... but when they try to pad their stats by suicide attack they wouldn't be able to... The time penalty would kick in...
Now you asked what style i prefer.. Kill the enemy is my style.. My style changes with my enemy... If hes hard im soft.. (e fighting) then when he's soft ill saddle (t&b) to distance 100-400 light him up..
As far a realism I would prefer more.. but with the recent influx of novices that might not be good for your business model.
I think airfields should be harder to capture than they are now.. The amount of small arms comming from a base should be huge... not just 37mm You should have tons of 7.62 .30 and .50 cal comming from the base until capture. This would make vulching harder until you strafed the small arms..(infantry.) Like at resupply bases you have all those tents why not have lots of static infantry (like the base capture infantry except shooting) on airbases..
I dont want lazer* (* no pun intended) guided ack.. considering I was with airdefense when I was in the service and I have seen modern airdefence in action.. Its extremely hard to hit a moving target even with 20mm gatling gun like the Vulcan cannon.. (+1000 rounds per minute..) Even with radar as distance was increased dispersion was increased and you chance for hits would drop big time... without radar to manually shoot a aircraft gong say 400 mph in a diagonal would be extremely rare..
so what im saying aircraft shouldn't really be vulrable to ground fire unless they come within -1000 yards....
As of current osties can pop you at 2.0 plus pretty consistantly and thats pretty inaccurate even for modern air defense..
In short more Air defense but less accurate air defense unless you fly right on top of the ack...
End HT...
Todd.... please use the quote a post .. I enjoy that..
"you said this" and "I say this"... Your chimp tactics are feeble..
You cant even see that the score system is curve based in the individual catagories .. i'll break it down for you... you have a high and a low; now graph that... yes what do you see.. your going to have more people in the middle less on top and less on the bottom. The graph should look like a U of some sort depending on your data on the graph side.. Any graph that looks like a U is a curve.. now like I said depending on how you place you data table on the sides; could make the U upside down. never the less its still a Curve.
House plants have more math skills than you todd. Get some education.. youll go far..
2 cents
DoctorYo
Ps Hitech not trying to drag you BB into the gutter... but Math Boy likes to rub and im rubbing back... I wont escalate this no matter what math boy posts next...
End, Fin, Fini, Hoca, Jubu, E
End...
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DoctorYO You apear to be only looking at one side of the equation.
What K/T realy is , is agresivness, In the real world accomplishing the mission was a huge part of the run/fight dissicion making proccess. With out it, why be agressive, why not just pick and choose your kills, and alway run when at a dissadvantage.
Take a look hartman: The resone he is viewed as one of the best is because of his K/T, i.e. he killed the most during the time of the war. Infact I belive there are quite a few other pilots around with a much better K/d. The resone he had a great K/T is because he was agressive. Plus he mostly doing the exact opisit of what you wish to promote, "Deep missions" I belive most of his kills came with short defensive missions.
So changing K/T would not make things more realistic, but wrather would make it less realisitic.
2nd.
Most people don't wish to admit it, but most people at least look at there score, and changing the score system affects game play greatly in the arena.
I've seen examples of making K/D to high, it completly changes the way people fly. Suddenly attacking only happens when the player is very sure he will not be killed. When everyone is doing this at once, what you end up with is everyone running all the time, and very little acm. In fact it even promots vulching, because that is the simplest way to get kills with out much risk.
3rd.
You realy can't game the game with K/T because consentrating on it alone will lower your other stats. I.E. Beeing to agressive gets you killed.
As for you non scorring items you brought in, thats a completly different discusion.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Pongo
In our game those would be kills as there are no duds.
I am not so sure of that. I am beginning to believe that, due to the variety of connection quality between players, there can indeed be hits from your side that do not register as hits on your opponents side - hence "duds".
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I have no idea how it could be done otherwise, but it is a shame that returning to base (your real base) would have any sort of penalty at all. As I understand it thus far, the time you spend returning to your base hurts your K/T quite a bit.
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Got a solution....
prorate the a average time it would take to return based on your location...
example:
base defenders who die on top of their base would be penalized 0-30 secs..
people dying in enemy territory would have the 5 mins its takes to get back to base...
you already have the code in place with how captures are determined... put in a extra table and link em..
You can be aggressive as you want but you cannont exploit the time it takes to RTB...
just a thought...
DoctorYo
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I don't know how complicated any of this is to implement. But perhaps it would be enough to just not allow landing at an enemy base to count as a normal landing?
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Todd.... please use the quote a post .. I enjoy that..
"you said this" and "I say this"... Your chimp tactics are feeble..
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Wow, my chimp tactics! LOL! Please keep going on, you're a riot! So much cleverness packaged into one person.
You cant even see that the score system is curve based in the individual catagories .. i'll break it down for you... you have a high and a low; now graph that... yes what do you see.. your going to have more people in the middle less on top and less on the bottom. The graph should look like a U of some sort depending on your data on the graph side.. Any graph that looks like a U is a curve.. now like I said depending on how you place you data table on the sides; could make the U upside down. never the less its still a Curve.
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Holy toejam, thanks for the lesson on bell curves. It still sucks that you're about three standard deviations below the mean in K/T, but that's not K/T's fault... that's your own. Even despite your flying style, you have an atrocious K/T. You're overstating how skewed that curve is because, once again, you're acting in a self-serving manner without regard to reality.
House plants have more math skills than you todd. Get some education.. youll go far..
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OMG I'm owned!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by maxtor
I don't know how complicated any of this is to implement. But perhaps it would be enough to just not allow landing at an enemy base to count as a normal landing?
That's an excellent suggestion, maxtor, and one to which I think everyone could agree.
And again, DoctorYO offered up a solution (prorated average return time) that just smacks of self-interest. Wouldn't you know he's the kind of guy who flies far, kills stuff, tries to live, and then returns to base? And I wonder what kind of flying style such a system would benefit in overall rank?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DoctorYO ,So if you got vulched taking off, you now get even more penalized?
And btw, when everyone is in enemy territory, who is there to fight, when no one is in there own ?
Why Is an attack, i.e. in enemy territory better than a defensive cap?
So far we have only discused fighters, don't forget there 3 other score groups.
Right now the score system is fairly balanced, there also have been other incentives put in for landing, like the perk bounus, and the kill messages, plus not RTB greatly reduces your K/D.
Hitech
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Alll of you keep giving theorectical situations what if this style and so....
Style has nothing to do with it..
Style is biased...
this exp is unbiased..
Look If pilot A has 50 sorties and lands 20% of them 80% of the time he has no RTB time...
Pilot B also has 50 sorties except he lands 80% of the time....
So to sum it up in overall flight time guy B has 60% more flight time no matter what style plane where... they fly etc if they had a equal number of kills... (give me a 60% bonus to my KOT I bet its right up there some of these people who are trying to discredit this)
Now you say that it hurts K/D i agree with that.. But as stated earlier we are using a curve system... (for the chimp impaired maybe were not... no names TOdd.....)
And the curve system we have benefits KOT more than K/D... why, plain and simple vulches boosts it... thats how someone has a K/D of 1.5 but a KOT of 10+
No as far as self serving how is asking for a fair system self serving...
again pilot A get 5 kills pilot B gets 5 kills...
Pilot B rtb's Pilot A dies.... (there both turn and burners on base defense 4.0k from there base so there no confusion on style, stupidity etc...)
How is prorating the time hurting player A any more than what player B has waste time RTBing... you might argue K/D and thats a semi valid argument if we had a static scoring system as opposed to the dynamic curve we have.
as of current most people do not land there kills due to style, experience, bad luck etc...
Now if the majority is not landing then the median between average and High will be lower...
Now apply the same to KOT if the majority of the arena is base capture. Vulching will happen.. And the KOT curve the amount of kills to be Average wil be higher...
Now i dont primary vulch whos fault is that, mine... hence dismal KOT... but whatever style someone flys KOT should be constant.. If you going to return to base but died instead.. why should you get a bonus to your KOT scores...
I notice why you have this stat its obvious.. but with no safe guards in place its being exploited....
KOT promotes suicide tactics.. and hence in a earlier post gaming the game. Take away the suicide bonus to KOT and youll see less of it...
You say that eveyone wont fight then i disagree, this arena is so huge you can run if you want too.. but then your country gets crushed becuase your twiddling your thumbs dont come crying to me.. This has been proven already when the rooks were outnumbered anywhere from 3-5 to 1 ... Numbers rule the arena if you running your not fighting and your not helping your team.. theres a time to run and a time to fight...
Hitech its your game.. when the #'s we mismatched i offered a solution... with the perk bonus... Thats now implemented (thank you) and note the numbers in main...
I rest my case...
DoctorYO
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Incentives for RTB:
- Points for landing = 4x Points for dying
- Higher K/D
- Name in lights
- 1.25x Perk Point Multiplier
Incentives for risking neck to get a few extra kills:
- Higher K/T
There seems to be an awful lot of built in incentive promoting your prefered style Dr. YO. It impacts two ranking categories (even if you argue that the impact of a higher K/T is higher than the other two put together because of the competitive effects) AND there are incentives that apply to players who ignore rank. Not so for K/T. I would say you have what you want.
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Originally posted by Samiam
Incentives for RTB:
- Points for landing = 4x Points for dying
- Higher K/D
- Name in lights
- 1.25x Perk Point Multiplier
Incentives for risking neck to get a few extra kills:
- Higher K/T
There seems to be an awful lot of built in incentive promoting your prefered style Dr. YO. It impacts two ranking categories (even if you argue that the impact of a higher K/T is higher than the other two put together because of the competitive effects) AND there are incentives that apply to players who ignore rank. Not so for K/T. I would say you have what you want.
You neglect to factor in the ability to land at an enemy base in your analysis. This distorts the impact of the K/T factor, as well as K/D (you can land damaged much more). Indeed the system does now quite severely penalize you for rtb to a friendly base.
Staying for more kills will then increase all your stats, not just K/T.
(pardon spelling)
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I think Hitech splained it very well.
K/T increases action per hour and agressiveness. To many, action per hour = maximum fun.
More weight on K/D and everyone runs. Runners make the game boring. Only those who are patient are rewarded.
Most importantly, there is no one sub category that is more competitive, or more important. Every individual player has issues that he finds more challanging than others, but the parts that he finds easy, many others find hard.
If you want to improve your overall ranking, it's best to focus on the subcategories that you are ranked worst at. Very often, making an improvement in those areas makes you rank worse in your other sub-cats, but your overall rank will still improve.
IMHO, the one thing that I would like to see change in how the ranker works, is for it to rank good players who are not "score consciense" better.
How can this be done? I'm not sure, but I'd like to see less of a spread in ranking between two players who basically perform the same, but one does just a few things that greatly boost his rank (Yes, I'm guilty).
eskimo
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Dr Yo,
Your example above (augering to improve K/T) would benifit only players like yourself, who have a high K/D, good points, and could afford to drop them in half or more. However, the vast majority of players would be harmed by intentional augering. For an improvement in K/T, they would take a bigger hit in points and K/D.
Then there are a handful of players whao are the exact opposite of you. They have a high K/T, lower K/D and points. They would be wise to land any sortie when they get some kills, and a chance to run home. Landing a four kills would earn them as many points as 16 on a sortie that they died on. They also would improve on K/D, where their rank is also suffering.
After a few sorties, their K/T rank may drop from 100 to 200, but their point rank might go from 2000 to 1500, and their K/D rank may also go from 2000 to 1500.
They would trade a KT rank drop of 100, but gain 1000 on the ther 2! This is a good trade.
This score system promotes a well ballanced playing style.
eskimo
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I must tell the truth. I don't really give a rats about how the MA rank goes. I plan on spending all my time in the Mission Arena as soon as HiTech gives it to us:D Now tha rank system I hope rewards landing kills.
Booky