Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on January 07, 2002, 05:02:00 AM
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There have been many recent threads concerning individual pilot ability, scores, streaks, k/d ratios, kills per unit of time and the like. I thought I would add my views about this in a new thread, so here it is.
I have been a wargamer for about 4 years now. I’ve been with Aces High only about a month. The planes here fly rather differently from those of the Dark Side, eg. 190s that can turn with your Spitfire, or so it seems. As a RL pilot (small civilian types) I must say that the planes in Aces High are closer to what I would have expected than those of the Dark Side. I’m still learning all this new stuff, so don’t expect an unblemished scoresheet from me just yet.
On the Dark Side, my best concerted effort was to finish at no. 8 on the fighter board, although this included a great deal of jabo work, with 166 guns destroyed plust many buildings destroyed. The aircraft kills I got were kind of incidental <lol> and I was flying my favourite Dark Side mount, the F6F. I could have finished at no. 5, but I stopped flying on the last day of the ToD because on the Dark Side, there is no Perk Plane system, and during that last day, 60% of the planes flying would be Me262.
Whenever I see guys talking about scores/streaks, what occurs to me is how little these guys are doing for the overall War Effort. I can remember when I was going for my 20-kill streak medal, hiding behind the other friendlies, and giving myself that extra 5K alt. as a safety margin, running away if a con even became visible above me, never clearing another guy’s 6, never lifting a finger to save a field under threat because I might lose my streak…
This is unrealistic, and is not how WW2 was fought! So if you are getting 40+ streaks, ask yourself what you are doing for your country. I can remember guys on the Dark Side who would cruise around at 25K, and who would let the other guys do the dirty work for stirring up the enemy, and would then zoom down for easy pickings – get a kill and zoom back up. Could I ever rely on a guy like this to help me if I were in trouble? Nope. And where would these high streaking guys be when their country needed them? Quite possibly they would have switched to whichever side was winning at the time.
Admittedly, I used to moonlight with a Dark Side squad known as The Scanian Griffins. These were a fearsome bunch of 190 pilots led by a Swedish guy called –rudu-. I used to get some great scores when I joined them, and only ever died once – my own fault – prop struck surface in P47 chase.
How do I feel about streak chasing and score mongering? Boring, boring, boring!!! I was so glad after I got my 20-streak medal, because it meant I could go back to jabo. I think I got killed the very next sortie – it was great! <lol – Osama would love me>
There is no shame in being shot down. Many of our own RAF were shot down, but their efforts protected us from the Nazi jackboot. Many survived. On the other side, Franz Stigler the famous 109 pilot, was shot down 17 times! And RAF veteran Ray Holmes was out of ammo when he engaged a Dornier he believed was going to bomb Buckingham Palace, so he rammed it, causing it to crash. Needless to say, he had to bail.
Still, Aces High is only a game, so perhaps we must allow concessions for streak dweebery and side switching :D
The AH scoring system needs further enhancement for long streaks to be taken in context. I would (if I could) add the following stats. - Number of vulches
- Number of side switches
- Number of times pilot failed to rescue friend in need
- Number of times pilot engaged in 2+ v 1 fight
- Number of times pilot ran away from battle, fearing loss of streak
- Number of times pilot simply lay in wait at 25-30K and the number of friendlies who were with him at the time
Personally, I like seeing good results in the process of doing something worthwhile for the war effort. Scores and streaks for their own sake while my country loses field after field leave me feeling empty and cold.
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the overall rank system, while in no way is an indication of skill, to some degree will show you who the folks are that "do it all" for king and country.
What it doesnt show is when you dragged 4 fighters away from your goon or the effort you put into a defend a field. Theres a whole host of "team player" catagories that can never be measured.
With the arena filled now with players of different skill levels and styles kill streaks will come and go. (also theres no kill streak counter so we are basically takin their word on how many they killed)
Did you ever believe you'd be in a main arena flight sim with nearly 500 people in the game geeesh........
Take it all with a grain of salt.....
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Alot of people going for good Streaks, in AH language good K/D, are not that carefull, they help friends, they fly dangerous although it is nice with alt some times.
You can get good K/D even though you don't run away as soon as you see a higher enemy.
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"ask yourself what you are doing for your country"
Diddly-squat.
Now, or ever.
I regularly burn it's flag.
Now, if they ever catch up with my back pay, maybe it'd be different.......
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All I care about is what country my squaddies are in and if there are any fields worth taking off from and any fights worth heading too. Still...
turning around to fight to save a squaddie even tho you have no ammo or fuel.. diving into a group of badguys for the hell of it.. augering or ditching so you don't have to fly home for over a sector... Every "style" has things that minimize your "score".
I really care more about stats. they are fun. Only I know what I am trying to do and only I know if 5% is better or worse than 10% in my hit percentage stat. Or, Like K/D.. If it goes to 5/1 I just get reckless and have fun in impossible situations but if it drops to less than 2/1 I start paying attention.
K/T is probly the most important. It measures your caution and plane choice against your wilingness to take risk. If you have good K/D and good K/T then you probly are dangerous. If you have good K/D with terrible K/T I will probly never see you. You aren't even in the same game as me.
lazs
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I like the free beer.
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Poeple who are able to "streak" have probably been playing this game for so long that they're looking for new ways to enjoy it.
Don't look at me I'm barely able to land !
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Originally posted by lazs1:
Every "style" has things that minimize your "score".
I really care more about stats. they are fun.
K/T is probly the most important.
I think these quotes sums it up pretty much... enjoy your $15 a month. <S>
Let me guess, you are an accountant by profession?
[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Hortlund ]
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Other peoples' scores are an elusive animal as they never will tell you much. Sure, they can give you snippets, but those are often quite misleading. Moreover people will invariably place different priorities on different categories and adjust their play accordingly. One can see that here. Some favoring K/D, some K/T, some K/S, some combinations thereof, etc. Myself, all I really watch at this point is my hit % simply because I'm trying to get my gunnery back into shape. The rest I couldn't care less about and make no real attempt to influence them. Thus the scores/stats make a nice tool to tell me how I'm progressing in whatever area I'm interested in for that point in time. That's about all though. These systems are good personal yardsticks and progress indicators, but one needs to be careful when trying to use them as comparitive tools. The folks ranked at the bottom of the list are every bit as likely to clean your clock as those at the top.
Regarding flying for country, or in a manner condusive to WWII tactics, I'd only offer that not everyone is here for the same reasons. Some just want to furball, others want the tactical/stratigic aspect, others shift in and out of the two from one flight to the next. For the most part the arena allows for all of that which is good. Point being that everyone is going to spend their monthly fee a bit differently, and all the power to them. As long as they're enjoying themselves.
Just my two bits anywhoo...
Vortex
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If ego related to skill, then I would be one dangerous mother!
:D
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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K/D is the only stat that matters to me.
Actually, Sorties landed vs sorties flown is VERY revealing as well. Hit percentage tells alot too, providing it's not from strafing hangars(does that count?)
Any mother's son can pile up tons of kills furballing in a spit or n1k in "fly till I die" mode. But how many have what it takes to get kills and bring their plane back to the hangar on a regular basis? Not many :eek:
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Originally posted by rammjagr:
Any mother's son can pile up tons of kills furballing in a spit or n1k in "fly till I die" mode. But how many have what it takes to get kills and bring their plane back to the hangar on a regular basis? Not many :eek:
You're assuming that those who do not, can not. Frankly, I'd rather go down in flames and return to the fight more quickly than egress when the opportunity presents itself. I can think of one instance in particular last night where fuel was getting low, I had eight kills, a horde of enemies to my South, and clear sky to my North (toward my base). It wouldn't have taken me skill to turn North and land that. Instead, I turned South and enjoyed myself.
To each their own.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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S!
Same here rammjagr, K/D is only stat that matters for me too. However, when AKDejaVu did his Top-10 on each plane stats, then my goal was to get in there with some plane. It was challenging and there was one good point; You could fool around and "have fun" with all other planes except the one you tried to build as good K/D as possible. But you had to have decent amount of kills before you were counted in. Also "top 10 killers" were along (= most kills in each plane) DejaVu, if you're reading this, could you clarify how the "rules" went again? Also, as a part2: What excatly are you waiting for? For HTC to fix something or ...?
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I would just like to point out the wonder of a system where, no matter how diverse your viewpoint is on the matter, it is possible to do it "your way". Hail to the "Burger King" of flight sims! ;)
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Whats funny to me about this thread, is that some folks believe that the way they choose to fly means they are somehow more skilled than those who fly a different way.
I fly to live....after 11 years of this I find it challenging to try and get as many kills as possible and land them versus furballing and dying more frequently.
To be honest, common sense tells me that the skillset of the pilot who furballs will be more potent than someone like myself who does not expose themselves to a more aggressive form of air-air combat.
Still, the one common denominator remains...we all want to have fun. As long as the community in general can accomplish that goal, then this product of HT's will prosper.
Cyas Up Ya Sissy Furballin Girlscouts!!!
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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"Cyas Up Ya Sissy Furballin Girlscouts!!!"
No Thin Mint, Peanut Butter Sandwich or Shortbread selection for you this year!!
;)
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Hey, I thought streaking went out of style in the late 70s.
Anybody remember the Ray Stevens song?
"I hollered over, Dont look Ethel! But it was too late, she already got a free shot"
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hortlund.. I'm a little slow today or else you edited out all meaning from your post.. What was your point exactly?
vortex.. well put. And rude too.
ramjager is totally clueless.
lazs
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Of course ego matters.....I wouldn't be able to fit into the tiffy's cockpit if it wasn't for the bubble canopy :D
An ostie shotdown my tiffy today, i feel so dirty and used :(
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"...This is unrealistic, and is not how WW2 was fought! So if you are getting 40+ streaks, ask yourself what you are doing for your country...".
I bet a lot of these guys in AH who only "attack when they have the advantage" would have been REAL popular with their buddies in WWII..hehe. Picture the look on a bomber crew's faces as the Mustang escorts refuse to come down from their perch, or dissappear into the distance when an enemy appears co-alt. :)
bowser
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I like the sound of tires squealing on tarmac after a long, hard mission. Its even better if my Mossie, Lanc or Fort is shot to hell. The slow slide of a crippled aircraft sliding down the runway on its belly after barely managing to return is almost as good.
However, I also like to dive into superior numbers of enemies, do Rhubarb missions and other things that get me killed frequently.
I'm also, frankly, not that good. Average at best.
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I am just happy to get kills in LW rides and live. Seems ack finds me an easier target then the enemy. Only time I venture above 20k is in a Ta-152, only place where it can survive without a head of steam built up. We all fly for different reasons, I am flying LW planes and that is it this tour for the hell of it. We all have our place and it is usually 6 feet under.
(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/sachs1.jpg)
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He He, Lazs still harping on about your K/T K/D KFC or whatever?
Like I said b4, Kills per life is the only one that ever mattered or matters.
As for diving into overwhelming odds with almost certain chance of death, I very much doubt any reputable flight leader would have ordered his men to their deaths.
1 sky accountant diving down to help a countryman/woman in trouble is just gonna die anyway and the question has to be asked, why did that countryman get himself in that situation and does he have the right to expect help?
Zygote
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Personal prefrecences aside. What counts in our MA is doing maximum damage to the enemy in the minimum time. That is: K/T and K/S, being K/D a secondary factor. Basically, for equal numbers, the side with better K/T will easily win the war over'n over.
And here as well as in RL you will be of little help for your side if you are looking only for K/D.
Aside of that fact, you can fly for your K/D, only for fun, to help to win the war of to whatever you want.
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As for diving into overwhelming odds with almost certain chance of death, I very much doubt any reputable flight leader would have ordered his men to their deaths.
Ever hear of the Battle of Britain? Poland? Berlin? Stalingrad? You're flat out wrong here.
Edit: Whoops, forgot the amazingly obvious "Kamikaze".
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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kieran... these guys think those brave young men were as timid as they are. It's pretty funny really. I can quote pilts climbing UP to the fight even tho they would be outnumbered and slow when they got there... Head on's etc. Naa... lone wolf sky accountants are by far the most unrealistic element the fighter game.
pygote... didn't you quit forever? again?
lazs
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Lazs-
Yup, read an account by Stanford Tuck where he lead a flight of Hurricanes into a mass LW raid- He-111's, Dorniers, Me-109's and Me-110's. They were climbing up the tailpipes of the bombers and knew they were sitting ducks. Those guys were fighting for God and country, and knew what their lives meant balanced against the destruction to their country and way of life.
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Well if Standford Tuck survived to tell the tale then it wasn't a certain death scenario was it.
I'm talking about 1 F4U-1 engaging 10 enemy like lazs imagines he does. Unrealistic. Oh yeah and then after amazingly winning the engagement, augering and dying because they were too bored to fly home.
As for the russians, it was do or die anyway. I suppose they figured they had more chance in the air against the hordes then they did with Stalins secret police. I think theyy were right btw.
Japaneze kamikazes - indivuduals indoctrinated and brainwashed from the age of 10 years will do anything their masters tell them. Do you actually believe the "they were volunteers" propaganda crap that came out after the war.
Use your brain Keiran. Not sure what I can suggest for old Lazs thou, maybe use someone elses brain?
Doh
Zygote
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The Thach Weave was used by Thach himself against a force of zeros greatly outnumbering himself.
I assume you don't read, or you choose not to, but I suggest you pick up the books "Aces Against Germany" and "Aces Against Japan" by Eric Hammel. For every account I read of pilot's outnumbering the enemy force, I read 3 more of pilot's diving into greatly outnumbered odds.
-SW
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aces against japan will provide pyegote with plenty of acounts of outnumbered F4F's, p40's and F4U's attacking large numbers of zekes, surviving and then ditching because they were shot up, lost or out of fuel.
pygote doesn't have a clue about courage or WWII air combat.
lazs
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Both great books! I highly concur!
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WWII combat was not nearly as leathal as AH combat for a whole host of reasons, hence Tuck survived.
The fact is that WWII pilots, with some frequency, dove, or even climbed, into enemy forces that would mean their certain death in AH and yet survived.
AH is not a guidline for what is realistic behavior as all of the fear is gone.
BTW, every interview I've seen with kamikaze pilots, or almost kamikaze pilots, has said that none of them wanted to do it and that all the films and governement statments is just so much tripe. They wanted to live very much, but they simply didn't see a way out of it.
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C'mon, Pyemia-
I humbly bow to what is obviously a superior intellect. :rolleyes:
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"...AH is not a guidline for what is realistic behavior as all of the fear is gone...".
Well a lot of players seem to be afraid of something. They won't fight unless they have a clear advantage, whether that is E or an abundance of buddies. Maybe it's just fear of what their stats could look like? :)
bowser
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I was defending a CV when dar showed a con aproaching from a nearby enemy base. I thought it might be a bomber trying a low level suicide run for the carrier, so I headed that way full speed at about 7k.
It turned out to be a P-38 at about 12k. I went up to 8k but decided to keep my speed in case the P-38 decided to engage. He flew toward the CV and didn't decend. I stayed a tad bit in front of him and hoped I could out-dive him before he released his bombs.
He began a dive right over the CV and I dove to cut him off when he suddenly pulled up. He had released his bombs at about 8k. I pulled up too. He sunk the CV and the ack barely fired a shot at him.. it was impressive.
Then I had a lite P-38 above me still by about 2k. I kept my speed and tried to entice him down a bit.. figuring the flak going off would make it appealing to him. I also flew away from the CV so he wouldn't be afraid of the ack. It worked.
He engaged fully... and we fought hard all the way down to the deck where I managed to get a front aspect lead storm in on him prior to him bringing his nose around. I lost a gun but he exploded. Then I saw the name of the pilot I had killed and said "uh-oh... here it comes..." to myself.
Sure enough, the pilot followed up on the comms with a "I'm getting a different plane! You wait right there!". Not <S> or "Nice fight"... or anything remotely apropriate. His ego was so assaulted that he felt it needed immediate rectification.
When I see the title of this thread... I always think about that pilot.
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HEY! I made his top 10 list many times AND in different planes. I rarely land, i'll be flying home with 7 cannon left and see 3-4 enemy and I don't know why, I hear one voice in my head that says "go land, re-arm", but that voice gets squeak slapped by the other voice that says "7 cannon, 4 enemy, YOU CAN DO IT!" and find myself winging over to the cons. One day I'll listen to the first voice, and then again the second Voice does sound alot like Fester come to think of it.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by vector:
S!
Same here rammjagr, K/D is only stat that matters for me too. However, when AKDejaVu did his Top-10 on each plane stats, then my goal was to get in there with some plane. It was challenging and there was one good point; You could fool around and "have fun" with all other planes except the one you tried to build as good K/D as possible. But you had to have decent amount of kills before you were counted in. Also "top 10 killers" were along (= most kills in each plane) DejaVu, if you're reading this, could you clarify how the "rules" went again? Also, as a part2: What excatly are you waiting for? For HTC to fix something or ...?
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Also, as a part2: What excatly are you waiting for? For HTC to fix something or ...?
HTC doesn't really have to fix anything. Their search engine wasn't designed to handle what I was doing with it and it caused problems on the server. There are ways around it... I'm just waiting for HT to get things set up on his side. Needless to say, its a tad bit down on his priority list.
AKDejaVu
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"He began a dive right over the CV and I dove to cut him off when he suddenly pulled up. He had released his bombs at about 8k. I pulled up too. He sunk the CV and the ack barely fired a shot at him.. it was impressive."
Hey Id like to know how he did that. :)