Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hajo on January 13, 2001, 01:16:00 AM
-
The more I think about the subject "Perked Planes" I wonder why a community such as Aces High, that prides itself in correct FM, Lethality of weapons etc. is even thinking about "Perk Planes?" I've heard many times suggestions to HT online that the fM of this aircraft is not correct, this should be changed, it didn't bleed e this badly etc.it holds it's E to well etc.is taking an "about face" and introducing "Quake Planes" into the mix? Are we turning Aces High into Air Warrior Relaxed Realism? Most of us I think are "die hard" flight simmers. We want correct performance, FM etc, and now we want a quake plane? The advancements of technology during world war II were such that aircraft design and technology advanced quickly. There are planes that are prop driven in some instances that a far superior to what we have in the MA at this time, can't we just introduce them? NOT the Me262 or the 163! Air warrior let us use Me262s one day a month and it turned the place into Jet Warrior, talk about boring! And who the heck is going to evade a 262 coming at 500mph with 4 X 30mm cannons? It will be on you, by you, and you'll be seeing it in your chute if you are still alive. that's just one example. How are we going to keep "newbies" who are expected to pay 30 dollars a month to fare, when any aircraft with a seasoned AH pilot is more then likely going to shoot them down with a "regular" craft, let alone a craft that is not realistic in performance. If I were on a two week trial period, got my butt kicked on a regular basis, and found out that not only did I have to defeat that pilot, but also an unrealistically performing aircraft, I don't think I'd spend 30 dollars a month for the aggrevation! I want to have fun, which means at least a level playing field, not one tilted to an already experienced pilot flying a craft that is performing unrealistically, lessening my chances of even pinging him let alone getting his or her sights on him.
As stated above, I was just using the Me262 as an example. even if one "perks" the C-hog, Nik, or even P-51 it lessens the realism of the game. I do not fly the c-hog, and I see nothing wrong with it, as it is at this time. As long as it's performing correctly let it be! One doesn't have to go HO with it! there are ways to merge with it avoiding the HO, and if flying a less maneuverable craft such as the fW etc, all I can say is this. If pilots spotted a craft with superior qualites, and an advantage, they avoided combat! simple, they wished to live! there are prop driven craft that have yet to be introduced into the MA that are supereior to what is there now. Let's just take the natural course, and let craft like the dora, as an example etc. be introduced into the mix. Lets' not do something that is totally uncharachteristic of a game and community that prides itself on the realism of this combat flight sim. "Perk" is not real, It's just "Quake" spelled a different way. I left Air warrior because of the realism founded in this flight sim. I do hope that the realism stays, and "perk" is forgotten. If anyone would need a "perk" plane, give them to the newbies, at least they'll have some fun <G>
-
Hajo,
Where did you get the idea that HTC is going to introduce aircraft with "unrealistic" flight models?
The idea is that we are using reasonably accurate simulations of WWII hardware in a massively multiplayer online game. We are not re-fighting WWII.
In the context of the game it would not be possible to introduce aircraft like the Spitfire F.MkXIV, F4U-4, Ta152, A7M2 or Tempest, let alone an Me262a or Me163 without making things like the Spitfire MkIX, F4U-1D, Fw190A-8, A6M5b and Typhoon pointless, let alone older stuff, without a control mechanism. The perk system is that mechanism.
Further, HTC can set the perk price wherever it needs to be to keep the best players from constantly tooling around in Me262s.
You can have realistic equipment without redoing WWII.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
EDITED WRONG.. SEE BELOW
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
Hajo, no one said the perk planes are going to be unrealistic. They will be modelled as realistically as the rest of the AH plane set. The perk planes will just be some of the more high-performance planes that maybe were late-war or something. I am sure that none will be "Quake" modelled. They will all have their weekness. Like the Me-262.. Sure it was fast, but it didn't take many bullets to put one of those jet engines out of commission. See?
As for newbies. It is the same in any sim. If they want to live they will get to know who their countrymen are and hang with them. If they can't handle the way AH works, then they can go play AW.
And again, let me restate what I have said in a couple other posts already. Quit whining about what perk planes do and don't do, how people fly them, how much they cost, whn they should be available and all that other garbage. Wait and see what happens after they are introduced. If the majority of players sees something way out of whack, I am sure HTC will make whatever corrections are needed. So enough already.
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
What the perk system says is we want to be a Paul Tagalbue and make this a "on any given Sunday" flight sim. Let the game develope its own character and quit regulating everything to death. HTC make it realistic and let the people who lay their $30 bucks down sort it out, country to country, head to head whatever but lose the perk idea quick.
-
Absolutely inane Tyro.
Have you played 1.05 recently? Nothing but F4us and spits, because they are perceived to be the strongest planes. Do you really think that if we have Tempests and Spit 14s that these won't become the most abundant planes in the sky?
Self-regulation my arse.
-
Then thats what the community wants you/we dont need HTC telling us what our $30 bucks can or cant fly, inane I dont think so, let HTC model the plane if you want to fly it fine if not fine thats your choice, we dont need a perk sys, three in humane dynamics gets us exactly what we have, and you beleive HTC didnt know this would happen and then we roll out the saving perk sys, B. S.
You want balance in the MA then reduce it to two countrys or up it to four.
If you wnat your "arse" regulated fine for you, I on the other hand rather make my choice freely, just slide your canopy shut pick your plane and take your chances or go play quake!
Was just on today in fact to satisfy your inquiring mind, and there to your surprise were A6m's, Niks, P-38, F4-U's, spits, yak, and P-51's, so that flys in the face of your facts about spits/F4U's only, the real question is do you see whats really around you or must what you see be regulated also?
Democracy make your own choice and live with it!
-
Can we all say....RPS
-tronski-
486 Sqn (NZ), "Hiwa hau Maka"
-
This is to no one in paricular but rather to alot of folks in general:
It is getting more apparant every week that folks just don't think before they post, or if they do they have a hard time expressing what they really mean. Because they just don't know what the fediddle they're talking about and it's more than obvious that they don't read what Pyro or HiTech write.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
Everyone will be able to dodge a Me 262. It's just a nuisance when you are fighting with other air craft.
// fats
-
Blah blah blah.
-
<phew> I misunderstood, my bad, aircraft will be realistic (perk) in modeling, not unrealistic. but I still feel the same way about letting one have an advantage in greater degree, then is already possible in the game. Let me try to explain. We chose the aircraft we fly. There is a margin of performance disparity already configured within the game simply by looking at the aircraft already available. for instance, and in my case I fly th A5 probably 75% of the time. I know as far as speed goes, it's in the middle of the pack or lower. Turning and E retention at the bottom of the food chain. Climb rate, well lets just say it is also placed at the bottom of the list. It does however roll well, has fair lethality with it's 4 20mm cannons, but in my opinion the spitIX is more lethal with the two 20mm and 2 .50 cal option. My thoughts about this are for game play only. A newbie trying out the game, as I said, might be easily discouraged from signing on because of his greater chances for failure then success caused by a "tilting" of the playing field in the direction of an already experienced player. Technology advanced during WW2, and in a post I read already about this subject stating we aren't replaying WW2, my answer is simply why are we flying WW2 aircraft then? This ain't Crimson Skies. I would prefer the simple course by just permitting the later war years planes be introduced, and available to all on an even basis, not a selective one.
[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
Enlighten us Westy! Be succinct!
-
Hajo, no matter what plane a newbie flies, no matter what his veteran opponent flies, that newbie has a very low chance of surviving anyway. AH has a collection of very skilled pilots, which was something that really ticked the hell outta me when I started here. After 2 months I "got it" and began to enjoy the game and rise in the food chain for a change.
If the perk system had been in place when I was a newbie it wouldve been the same thing. If the me-262 and other "perk" planes had been avaliable and UNPERKED when I was a newbie you can bet your bellybutton that I wouldve flown it exlusively.... and get shot down in it in the same way as I got shot down in the p51/109/p38.
The problem with what you suggest, the no-perking of any craft is that people will ONLY fly the late war planes and thus HTC wouldve wasted its efforts in modeling the early war planes like the p40, p39, bf109e, etc. Not to mention that the ONLY thing you would see in the MA would be Me262's.
In the MA right now you will see a sickening % of F4's and Spitfires. Maybe because they are carrier based... but in most field vs field you will still see them. Now compare that to v1.04, where F4's were seen every now and then and you got to fight against all AC almost all the time (though spits were annoyingly regular back then too). Now its just F4's and spits almost all the time.
Pork! Its what's for dinner!
-
I love early war and late war bores me others have different preferences. Most will just wander away when they can't grab their favorite plane for a day, a week or even most of a tour so.... RPS is allways bad. Those flying early and late will be fewer than mid and a good percentage of those will be squeaking as they fly.
Mid war only like current AH, like we have now is the most popular/least offensive. Lots of planes to choose from. Parity, choice, fairness but.... lacking a way to use early or late war planes.
Idiotic "perk" system is the worst of all worlds... 10-50% of all the planes in the arena will be noticiably or percieved better than the rest and will not be available to the new or casual flyer.... He won't care why,, he will just know that he is getting stomped by good pilots in ac that are unavailable to him. There is also no way to introduce early war planes. It's backwards... It is custom made for animosity, and it is an incomplete and unworkable solution so far as early war is concerned.
There is of course a solution that would allow everyone to fly anything, early, mid and late, they wanted at any time against planes of equal ability.
lazs
-
You do realize that "Mid war" was in reality 42/43 right Lazs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
No matter what decision is made there are always going to be people that are not satisfied, fact of life. at least if late war craft are going to be introduced, let them be available for all. As Lazs stated, and someone before, no matter what, the "newbie" is going to have a steep learning curve if he's never participated in on-line FR flight sims. Why make something available to so some and not others? I'll get my perk points to earn the craft, but if I in engage an enemy craft inferior in performance, I have that advantage without being higher etc. Then I find out that the enemy is quite new, and even if I've upped in a Sopwith Camel there was a good chance I would have beaten him anyway because of his/her unfamiliarity with FR FM,and the performance of his/her craft. First impressions are lasting ones, I also understand that it takes time to learn FM etc. I took my lumps as did everyone else without "perk" planes. I persisted in getting up and improving. The challenge was the key. Even now I don't care about getting shot down. I've been flying online sims for quite a few years, and learned that rankings and points aren't the key. Enjoying oneself is the key! Why would anyone pay 30 dollars not to enjoy themselves? A new person flying AH during that 2 weeks is going to form an impression. As the two weeks rolls along he/she will learn and experience online flight sims. If within that 2 week period he/she does not enjoy him/herself they won't pay the 30 dollars! Simple! I'm not saying lets make it easier. I'm saying in aircraft, let's keep the playing field as it is. Tilting it even more so in favor of the seasoned player is not going to bring in the newer ones once they find out that some of the planes they are flying against give them little chance of success against the "seasoned" player in that perk plane.
[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
Correctamundo Hajo! HTC drives off the newbies and AH goes down the tubes in a slow death! Simple common business sense you must keep refreshing the customer base, make the game a piss-off and few will stay, perks will supply that piss-off.
-
Have you played 1.05 recently? Nothing but F4us and spits, because they are perceived to be the strongest planes.
Have you played 1.05 recently dowding? The Spit is like 8th on the usage list. Admit it.. you just threw it in there because you like the idea of a British plane being considered strong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW.. the is being out-used by 2 land-only aircraft... and virtually all of the carrier based aircraft (and pt boats).
AKDejaVu
-
"Enlighten us Westy! Be succinct!"
After reading your posts for just a couple of days I'm quite sure I'd be wasting my breath.
Like I've said. There's always AW, FA and Crimson Skies for those who find AH too much of a challenge. Be it flying skills online or understanding what HTC's plan is.
-Westy
-
Oh God! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The end is near! Repent HTC! Repent!
Jesus. You guys should listen to yourselves.
Bunch of twisted panty 3 year old girls if I ever saw them. You all on the rag or something?
You guys are ridiculous and I hope to hell HTC discounts all this crap just because it is so ill-considered.
------------------
Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-13-2001).]
-
Originally posted by Karnak:
Hajo,
Where did you get the idea that HTC is going to introduce aircraft with "unrealistic" flight models?
The idea is that we are using reasonably accurate simulations of WWII hardware in a massively multiplayer online game. We are not re-fighting WWII.
In the context of the game it would not be possible to introduce aircraft like the Spitfire F.MkXIV, F4U-4, Ta152, A7M2 or Tempest, let alone an Me262a or Me163 without making things like the Spitfire MkIX, F4U-1D, Fw190A-8, A6M5b and Typhoon pointless, let alone older stuff, without a control mechanism. The perk system is that mechanism.
Further, HTC can set the perk price wherever it needs to be to keep the best players from constantly tooling around in Me262s.
You can have realistic equipment without redoing WWII.
A7M2 ... isn't that japans shinden fighter (no not shiden .. shinden). a rear prop driven aircraft with a kanard. It never saw flight infact I don't think it ever got past the desighn phase, so not one was ever built. I could be wrong I could have this mixed up with say japans version of the me262 (looks almost the same they made two one flew, none saw combat). again I could be wrong and Iam to dam lazy to look it up.
------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
-
I've not seen HTC ever mention adding prototypes or "one offs." Everything I've read as been an actual production aircraft (see aircraft forumn). Combat or not has never been a deciding factor. Most likely due to the circumstances of the air combat in late 44 and into 1945.
-Westy
-
westy, I understand completly what you are saying believe me. No special aircraft etc. My point is simply this, it could very well discourage someone on a two week trial basis from signing up simply on the basis that he/she does not have an equal playing field. He won't be able to select the craft that is killing him on a regular basis,he'll ask why, be told he has to accumulate the points to be able to select that aircraft,figure out that he won't have the points possibly within the two week period, maybe even the length of a campaign. It will not encourage new users , which are needed to keep AH going in the future to stay and pay their 30 dollars like the rest of us. I could care less personally, I'll fly what I want, but by tilting the playing field against even more so the newbies, I can't see any benefit in "perking" but to those who will use it. and believe me contrary to what is said, like vulching, the perk planes will be in the air when available <G> Easy points the norm.
-
Man they sure are making newbies from soft cheese these days if a little challange scares em off.
Has there been a single decision made by HTC in the last year that some idiot hasnt spouted off for 60 pages about how it would drive off the newbies.
What a bunch of crap.
Thin skinned newbies that cant take a challenge will not last no matter what you do.
-
I understand what you're saying Hajo. But a newbies impression of AH, and where it might be heading, could also be skewed if he/she came in here and started reading these forumns and seeing people say things like "Is AH becoming AW RR???"
Pongo kind of hit the nail on the head. And with that in mind I'm going to take a break from these boards. I'm not doing anyone any good and it's agravating the hell out of me to boot.
<S> and see ya in the air........
- Westy
-
Westy me also bud, was just adding food for thought. I am concerned naturally about my favorite flight sim, and I do wish to point out other views. If and when Perk planes are added, I'll still be here <G> What the hell, where else could I suffer this abuse <G>
Cya up
Hajo
-
Mayhem,
The A7M was Jiro Horikoshi's successor to the A6M. It was a conventional looking fighter that when we tested it after the war we were very impressed with.
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/japan/mitsubishi_a7m.gif)
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/japan/mitsubishi_a7m.jpg)
Mitsubishi 'Sam' A7M Reppu
(Japan)
This replacement for the venerable A6M was delayed by lack of interest, a disagreement between designer and customer concerning the choice of engine, an earthquake, the breakdown of the Japanese industry, and the bombing of the factories. Only ten were built.
Type: A7M2
Function: fighter
Year: 1945 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 1620kW Mitsubishi MK9A
Wing Span: 14.00m Length: 11.00m Height: 4.28m Wing Area: 30.86m2
Empty Weight: 3226kg Max.Weight:
Speed: 627km/h Ceiling: 10900m Range: 1160km
Armament: 4*g20mm 2*b250kg
I was being optimistic and giving the Japanese an extreme aircraft as well.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Originally posted by Karnak:
Mayhem,
The A7M was Jiro Horikoshi's successor to the A6M. It was a conventional looking fighter that when we tested it after the war we were very impressed with.
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/japan/mitsubishi_a7m.gif)
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/japan/mitsubishi_a7m.jpg)
Mitsubishi 'Sam' A7M Reppu
(Japan)
This replacement for the venerable A6M was delayed by lack of interest, a disagreement between designer and customer concerning the choice of engine, an earthquake, the breakdown of the Japanese industry, and the bombing of the factories. Only ten were built.
Type: A7M2
Function: fighter
Year: 1945 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 1620kW Mitsubishi MK9A
Wing Span: 14.00m Length: 11.00m Height: 4.28m Wing Area: 30.86m2
Empty Weight: 3226kg Max.Weight:
Speed: 627km/h Ceiling: 10900m Range: 1160km
Armament: 4*g20mm 2*b250kg
I was being optimistic and giving the Japanese an extreme aircraft as well.
Thanks Karnac didn't know that.
-
Mayhem, this is your Japanese rear propeller plane with canards:
J7W "Shinden"
IJN 18"shi" Experimental Interceptor
(http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/shinden/shinden1.jpg)
(http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/shinden/shinden2.jpg)
I got these pictures from this website about Imperial Japanese Naval Aircraft. http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/k-frame.html (http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/k-frame.html)
SuperD
Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group
G8N."Renzan"(Rita)
IJNHeavy Ground Attack Bomber "Renzan"
(http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/renzan/renzan1.jpg)
G5N."Shinzan"(Litz)
IJNHeavy Ground Attack Bomber "Shinzan"
(http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/shinzan/shinzan1.jpg)
Imperial Japanese Naval Airplanes (http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/kaigun/k-frame.html)
[This message has been edited by SuperD (edited 01-14-2001).]
-
does anyone have any more info on the Shinden? 3views, dimensions?
Been looking, there doesn't seem to be much published about it.
-
Too late to stop the perk-project. This is a 1944-45 plane set simulation, with all the a/c togheter at the same time. The only thing you can do is to wait and see. Should the perk-project fail, we'll probably see an RPS