Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on January 12, 2003, 08:26:14 PM
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Now, let me start off by saying that I know we don't have any control over that and it is entirely HTC's choice. I'm not thinking I'm part of making that decision, and I'm happy with that.
I just want to have a player discusion about this as I've seen many players stated that the Ki.84 would need to be a perk plane.
Is that really true?
Please respond with the specific reasons that you think it should, or should not, be perked. Don't just say "Yes" or "No", as that won't add to the discussion or give any new insights into the performance of the Ki.84.
Another point is that we need to assume that it will use Japanese data and Japanese fuel as do the Japanese aircraft already in AH.
As I understand the Ki.84-I-Ko's performance to be, it should look something like this:
Ki.84-I-Ko as Karnak understands it:
Deck Speed: 350-360mph
Max Speed: 392mph
Turn capability: About like a Spitfire Mk IX
Roll Rate: About middle of the road
Initial Climb Rate: 3,600 feet per minute
Acceleration: Better than the Spitfire Mk IX, worse than the La-7 in general
Stall Behavior: The Ki.84 is supposed to have a nasty and abrupt stall
Fuel Range: 1,050 miles
Armament: Two Ho-5 20mm cannon in the wings with 150 rounds each and two Ho-103 12.7mm machine guns in the fuselage with 350 rounds each. Essentially the same gun package as the Ki.61-I-KAIc that we already have in AH, except for more ammo and reversed cannon and machine gun mounting positions.
Ordinace: Two 250kg bombs
Based on that understanding of the Ki.84's performance, and the fact that 3,514 were built and it entered service before the P-51D, I just don't see it as needing to be perked. It also wasn't the most common aircraft in WarBirds back when I flew in WarBirds, and that was also Pyro's flight model.
I do think that it will be a very common fighter in AH, probably in the top five, if not the top three, but I don't think it needs perking anymore than the P-51D, Spitfire Mk IX, La-7, N1K2-J or Typhoon Mk Ib do.
What do the rest of you think? Why should it be perked or free? If you think it should be perked, how much should it be perked?
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I think the entire perk system needs to be re-visited.
The current strat system isn't the same one that forced the perking of F4U-1C and the TA-152 is perked for HTC knows what reason.
If the Frank is not perked, it will be. There will be a great whining.
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I fail to see why people expect the Ki-84 to be some sort of superplane. I think that such people have an imprsssion of the plane based on the US test data which is unlikely to appear in AH.
Perk the Ki-84 as it performed for the Japanese (likely how it'll be modeled)? I think not!
It'll be a great fit for the current MA. HTC should add it ASAP.
J_A_B
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Sandman,
Why should it be perked? What puts it into that category?
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You're asking the wrong guy, Karnak. I haven't a clue.
I just think that there will be a lot of whining about the Frank and a lot of whining has lead to perks in the past.
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I wonder where you'd foresee whining? Does it turn as well as the N1K2? Does it turn as well as the Ki-61? Does it outgun either?
AKDejaVu
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If the Ki-84-Ia is perked
than so should the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7, P-51D, Typhoon Ib, N1K2-J be perked.
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Oh... you expected a logical argument?
There is no logic when it comes to whines. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
If the Ki-84-Ia is perked
than so should the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7, P-51D, Typhoon Ib, N1K2-J be perked.
So.. kweassa... since you seem to be getting at something other than just asking an honest question... let me paraphrase what I'm reading into this:
HTC! DON'T PERK THE Ki-84!
Am I reading too much into it?
If that's what you are actually trying to get at, you may want to look back on the Ta-152 threads and see that the exact same thing was said there. This won't help if Pyro sees fit to perk it.
Also, someone forecasting that the community will whine about the Ki-84 uberness after its released does not sink with the "its not that uber".
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Also, someone forecasting that the community will whine about the Ki-84 uberness after its released does not sink with the "its not that uber".
Of course the communtiy will whine about it. This community whines about everything.;)
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The introduction of the ki84 will probably initiate some uneasiness in a lot of fliers until they get used to seeing them in the game. I dont think the ki84 will be that great at odds with other planes in the arena and thus will not need to be perked. Who knows though it may connect with a large range of pilots and may require examination. Only its presence will allow that to be judged and last I heard the ki84 was still down the road.
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it shouldn't be perked.
see n1k2 la-7 p-51d bf109g10.
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I agree with Sandman in that we could use a revamping of the perk system. For example we have an aircraft (F4U-1C) that was proven to dominate the arena, while planes such as the Spit 14 and TA-152 are perked for roughly ten times that amount without any proof as to wether or not they would have the same impact as the C-Hog did when unperked. I'm not saying that they should be unperked but surely the prices are out of line.
And no, I don't think a KI-84 should be perked.:)
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Perked?
Absolutely not.
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It's a single sentence.
"If the Ki-84-Ia is perked than so should the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7, P-51D, Typhoon Ib, N1K2-J be perked."
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Isn't it pretty much self explanatory?
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ps) Many people claim many different agenda on the perk system.. some say balance issues, some say performance, some say production numbers and rarity...
What EXACTLY IS the perk agenda in AH? :confused:
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Originally posted by Kweassa
What EXACTLY IS the perk agenda in AH? :confused:
What HTC want it to be :)
They dispose of the perk system at their will
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Originally posted by aztec
I agree with Sandman in that we could use a revamping of the perk system. For example we have an aircraft (F4U-1C) that was proven to dominate the arena, while planes such as the Spit 14 and TA-152 are perked for roughly ten times that amount without any proof as to wether or not they would have the same impact as the C-Hog did when unperked. I'm not saying that they should be unperked but surely the prices are out of line.
Sigh... this is one of the most fundamentally flawed arguments I've seen.
Is the Spit IX one of the most popular rides in the arena? Is the Spit XIV better? What does that indicate about how it would be used? Same for the Tempest. The Ta-152 is a bit closer of a decision... I almost wish that HTC would unperk it just to give you a taste of what happens when you unperk a plane that was rightly perked.
AKDejaVu
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Well Deja, if you would read it again I didn't say unperk anything, I simply don't understand the huge difference in price. However I suppose you have the right to skew my meaning any way you wish.
How hard would it have been to voice your opinion without the condescending know it all attitude?
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What makes you think a KI84 is soon to be released? This thread alone is a good argument to not release it :)
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Originally posted by Karnak
Now, let me start off
At what g will we pull the wings off..........:p
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I think the entire perk system needs to be re-visited.
The current strat system isn't the same one that forced the perking of F4U-1C and the TA-152 is perked for HTC knows what reason.
If the Frank is not perked, it will be. There will be a great whining.
I think the reason the C-hog was perked was because it combined rockets, bombs, and cannons into an awesome base-attack aircraft. The Typhoon hasn't been perked because it lacks the bombload capacity that the C-hog has. The P-47 hasn't been perked because other aircraft can catch it and kill it (LA-7, P-51, Corsair, Typhoon).
I'd rather have a perked Ki-87 than none at all. It can always be unperked for CT and TOD duty.
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naw, it doesn't need to be perked. it's like the Japanese Spit IX. And it'll have Ki-84 as it's tag, so it'll have a "you need to take care of me soon" sign on it.
The Tempest, 163 and 262 are priced about right.
the 152 should be about 5 points, and the Spit XIV and F4U-4 should be 10-15 points.
unless you remove the perk tags (call the XIV just SPIT and the -4 just F4U) then I'd say 20-30 points for them. As it is, you fly a Spit XIV anywhere, and just about everyone with a red icon will come after you, regardless of their own safety.
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From the numbers presented it doenst seem to be perk material.
There where 4 20mm versions I believe as well.
But Gpreddy got it. If some strange dynamic of its capabilities really attracts alot of attention..then it might be hogC perked..But are we sure of your numbers?
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I have no knowledge whatsoever about the IJN rides... but from the stats you've posted, I don't think it needs to be perked any more than some of the rides we already have.
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You can't discuss whether a future added aircraft should be perked or not unless we understand the criteria by which previous aircraft were perked.
As for the F4U-1C, it carries less rockets than the -1D and I'm pretty sure the P-47 is faster.
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The Chog is perked because it has a fantastic ammo load is a great gun platform and it is fast on the deck. Any aircraft can be beat and the chog is no exception. I think the perks spent on the Chog are really going toward hispano ammunition and not aircraft. I almost prefer the f4u4 but its too expensive. The dhog is what I use when the perks are good and chog when there are a lot of buffs about.
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Aztec.. the huge difference in price (don't think the Ta is that high anymore) is because of planes that were perked for performance. Their sole existance there is because of performance.
The CHOG was not perked for performance. It was perked for usage. The perking was simply a means to curtail usage. Nothing more... nothing less. It had a tour where it accounted for over 30% of all MA kills. That was excessive in anyone's book. It is not a stellar performer and there are a more than a few planes that can both out-turn it and out-run it. Just not many that can out-gun it.
AKDejaVu
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Thank you for the informative response Deja, I appreciate it.:cool:
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Aztec.. . The perking was simply a means to curtail usage. Nothing more... nothing less. It had a tour where it accounted for over 30% of all MA kills. That was excessive in anyone's book. It is not a stellar performer and there are a more than a few planes that can both out-turn it and out-run it. Just not many that can out-gun it.
AKDejaVu
Good heavens, then perk the damn La-7 and Spits for cripes sake.
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It should be free of coarse!
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No I don't think it should be perked . But there will be perk the ki84 whinning, oh god yes . Consider the n1k2 whinning we've allready seen .
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Not intended to be flame at Deja, but did you stop to think maybe the excesive usage of the CHog was due to its performance (in this case i believe the armament is the performance boost). Seeings there are two other non-perked variants of the F4-U, there had to be reason the C model was chosen most often.
If given th epower to to perk, i would perk variants of model that were specifically upgraded in regards to performance. For instance:
109E,109F and 109G-2 non-perked, 109G-6 and 109G10 perked accordingly.
190A-5 and 190F-8 non-perked, 190A-8,190D-9 and Ta152 perked accordingly.
Spit I, Spit V non-perked, Spit IX and Spit XIV perked accordingly
Hurr I, Hurr II non-perked, Hurr III perked accordingly
A6M2 non-perked, A6M5b perked accordingly
La5 non-perked, La7 perked accordingly.
well you get the hint. Before perking the N1k2 the N1K1 would have to be introduced. Getting back to the whole point of this post, yes the Ki-84 would be perked and the Ki-61 left unperked.
Im not talking 20 perks for a Spit IX, more like 5. The idea and challenge being you would have to earn the perks in the earlier models in order to "step up" to the better rides.
PS. P51-B nonperked, P51-D, perked accordingly. Ehhh, you get it now i think :p
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This discussion rides on confusion, which concerns the question I asked earlier on.. so what is the perk agenda? Are the perks assigned according to:
1) arena balance
2) performance balance
3) or, historical rarity??
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The C-Hog seems to be 1) (20~30% of kills), a bit of 2) (four Hispanos + carrier-craft + supreme JABO), and 3)...
the Ta-152 seems to be nothing but teeney bit of 2) (supreme speed at supreme altitudes where nobody flies..), and 3)...
Tempest would be a mix of 2) and 1)...
What would the Ki-84 fall under then? 2) and 1)? ...
But, the suggested performance data on the Ki-84 only seems to present to us that it is something like a bit faster accelerating Spitfire Mk9 or, a more maneuverable La-5FN... perhaps a Mix of a Spit9 maneuverability/top speed with La-5FN low-alt flight characteristics...?
Would that combination of performance be enough to make people choose the Ki-84 over everything else, and make it necessary of being a perk aircraft?? In this late-war MA environment where La-7s, Fw190D-9s, P-51Ds and Bf109G-10s roam??
I really don't think so...
We'll probably see them very often, but considering the rarity of Zeros(utterly incompetent as a fighter in the MA environment, if not rare..) and Ki-61s, it would probably be a result of fans devoted to Ki-84, or Japanese pilots who finally got their hands on a reasonably formiddable plane.. rather than something that has to do with initially great performance(as in the case of the Tempest)..
I'm willing to bet that with the Ki-84 introduced, a part of the Spitfire fans would shift to the Ki-84, some of the N1K2 loving folk would also go there... but it won't in anyway need perks both performanc-wise, or balance-wise..
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Now, what JB42 suggests, I think, is an entirely different matter, perhaps, almost irrelevant to current discussion. It's about a totally different perk agenda.. almost..
ps) But I do agree along some of the lines JB42 suggests.
I would like to see late-war aircrafts perked very lightly, (even more so than the C-hog... around 3~4 perks..).
P-51D, P-47D-30, Bf109G-10, La-7, Yak-9U, N1K2-J, Fw190D-9, F4U-1D, Typhoon 1B...
which would promote the use of each predecessors
P-51B, P-47D-11 and D-25, Bf109G-2 and G-6, La-5FN, Yak-9T, Ki-61, Fw190A-8 and A-5, F4U-1.. pushing the arena into a more "mid 1943~early 1944"-ish environment than now.
... but, this is for another discussion..
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I do agree that it is likely to pull quite a few Spitfire pilots away from the Spitfire. Look at the armament, it is very similar.
I think it will also pull some of the N1K2 fliers (though some will go back to the N1K2 after they discover that they really prefer to have 900 rounds of 20mm ammo).
Some of the La-7 and P-51D drivers will probably switch, sacrificing some speed for better turn performance. I would expect a far greater number of La-7 drivers to do this that P-51D drivers.
If perked it'll be a very rare aircraft as it doesn't have any of the performance numbers to escape and will have a nice KI84 icon (as it should) identifying it. The performance numbers I'm talking about are speed and climb. It can't run away (Me262A-1 and Tempest) and it can't climb away (Spitfire Mk XIV), so it would have to fight until victorious or dead.