Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on July 23, 2000, 11:43:00 AM
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Understanding the different programs used to create 3D art between competing developers, I still find the concept of allowing 3D models created by the community a very interesting, if possibly flawed, approach!
BigRed has created these models and submitted them to iEN:
http://home.austin.rr.com/sentai27/members/gallery/index.htm (http://home.austin.rr.com/sentai27/members/gallery/index.htm)
Comments please!
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-23-2000).]
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let see if u have your own mesh, send to HTC maybe nate can use it ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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that's the only thing making me worried
about wb3 vs AH. on this side, AH will loose.
but i saw the Wb3 films and wasn't impressed.
hope HTC will bring up new planes as fast as
possible.
btw, the 3d modells are great!
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I'll believe it once one of those models is playable in WB. iEN has already demonstrated that their word means nothing.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-23-2000).]
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3D model ain't worth toejam unless they got the physics to go with it.
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What a roadkill Vulcan.
physic model and 3d model are 2 complete different things. You can model a cow and give it P51 characteristics and it will fly like a P51.
I like the opportunity to get things into the game if the models are good and accurate. It also gives a small company with limited man power an easier life. You'll be surprised how many players here have good artist skills and are willing to support their favourite game.
Look at SDOE and then tell me all the planes and things players made for the game are complete useless.
Macchi
(http://www.lemsko.de/3d/macchi.gif)
[This message has been edited by Macchi (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
3D model ain't worth toejam unless they got the physics to go with it.
Psysics aint worth toejam without 3D model either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hehe ... it seems to me that you have missed what my vulgar ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))cousin from across the pond is saying Macchi, which is this:
Unless the decent 3D graphics is supported by a decent physics engine, it is for all intents and purposes useless from a flight simmers point of view.
I agree with him. Given an ultimatum, I would prefer to be 'flying' stick graphics with an awesome physics engine, rather than flying an incredibly detailed graphical simulation with a StarWars physics engine.
There is also the possibility in the witty one liner, an insinuation that WBIII has a 'lovely physics model'. However, we won't know for sure if that is what he is insinuating, because the statement leaves those shades of meaning deliberately vague while sounding rhetorical.
Of course these days we are approaching a reasonable compromise for both physics and graphics (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Fishu, you basically restated cuz' Vulcan's comment ... akin to saying 'yes, but it's not black and therefore it's white' after cuz said 'it's white therefore it isn't black'.
I apologize for intruding on this thread, but it pains me when 'furriners' don't get the gist of what our Kiwi cousins are trying to elucidate. They are afterall inhabitants of my backyard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Cheers
Yosus
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?One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you?ll need to wear brown corduroy ? ?
Phoenix Squadron.
[This message has been edited by Yosus (edited 07-24-2000).]
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So who gets yelled at when folks find FM flaws? Or is this an open submission for player 'skins' to be used for existing aircraft??
I hope never to see such a thing in AH. Skins sure, but enitre aircraft modeling submitted by community menbers? No. It "grays out" the accountability for the end product. If I have issues with an aircrafts performance I like to know I can go straight to HTC and get resolution or clarification.
No way do I want 'open' source aircraft in any sim I'm paying decent money for.
-Westy
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Westy,
a 3d model has nothing to do with a flight model. These are both things which are linked together by the programmer.
iEN isnt going to an open source product, they only saying that they would accept models and skins and then check them if they are in such condition they could be used in the Sim.
Never think your P51 or 109 is a P51 or a 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If it would be possible then i would give your plane delta wings and you wont notice any changes except visual feedback while looking out of your cockpit, the performance of the plane would stay the same, because the FM for that model wasnt changed.
So, if you are a small company and you know cheap sources to get things into your product, why you should not use them if they are good enough?
Macchi
[This message has been edited by Macchi (edited 07-24-2000).]
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So you are talking about "skins" then. I'm all for that. AW has had that ability for several years andit REALLY got better when AW 3 entered the 3D realm. The community submitted some fantastic work that really gave the sim and extra year or two of life blood.
-Westy
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Westy:
Its the skins only. It will allow you to customize your plane with squad logo's handles etc.
Vulcan: The physics are already there, so now its time to add the fancy stuff.
Hiya Yeager, Allied vs Axis arena is the cat's meow. You'd really enjoy it.
Ram1
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Originally posted by Ram1:
Westy:
Its the skins only. It will allow you to customize your plane with squad logo's handles etc.
Vulcan: The physics are already there, so now its time to add the fancy stuff.
Hiya Yeager, Allied vs Axis arena is the cat's meow. You'd really enjoy it.
Ram1
*cough* 80 year old terminology *hack*
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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My car gets thirty rods to the hector and thats the ways we likes it!
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Maybe what I should have said is the 3D models in Quake are great because everyone has the same performance (FM) (I think!).
So whats the point of open-sourcing the 3D Models in a sim? Who writes the performance parameters? Do you just slap the Spits FM in and say there ya go another generic plane rolled out?
3D Models is only half the solution.
Whoop de doo... you got a whole pile of 3D models without someone accurately writing their FM and modelling their performance. Probably good for the Fighter Ace crowd, but I think the AH guys are looking for a bit more.
p.s. to our inbred-convict-descendent-Cousins across the Tasman, we whipped yo tulips in da Rugby!
-vlkn- running and ducking for cover
[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 07-24-2000).]
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<whine mode on>
The average All Black (or whatever team the Kiwi's field these days) neanderthal is way over-modelled anyway! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<whine mode off>
Cheers
Yosus
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“One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you’ll need to wear brown corduroy … “
Phoenix Squadron.
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Vulcan, you are speculating. You don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Until WBIII hits the streets(if it ever does), the only people who know for sure, aint talking.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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The concept is really cool - and I think it is the future.
Consider this - technical simulation is getting very very good. One day we will be able to build a 3D model of a plane (detailed - with weights, surface information, etc) and submit it to a simulation engine that will return condensed flight coefficients that can then be used in the FM.
The big aircraft companies already have the ability to do complex and accurate flight simulations based on the aerodynamics. I think they are brute forcing the calculations but there is nothing to say that an engine couldn't be developed that would return the simplified FM numbers needed for fast real-time flight simming on today's PC.
It just might be the future - build the most accurate 3D model you can and get the best possible flight model. Bet it happens.
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Originally posted by cabby:
Vulcan, you are speculating. You don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Until WBIII hits the streets(if it ever does), the only people who know for sure, aint talking.
Cabby
OK, explain to me how it works and whos does the flight model to match the 3D model?
I'm just pointing out that, WBIII, AH or otherwise theres more to users designing a 3D model to get a plane into a sim. I have heard several people ask for variants of existing planes and HT/Pyro reply with an 'it ain't that easy'.
-vlkn-
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Vulcan
the flight model would be created by the company if they have enough technical data for the aircraft. If they dont have the data, then the 3d model a user has sended would be useless for them.
Macchi
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Originally posted by Ram1:
Hiya Yeager, Allied vs Axis arena is the cat's meow. You'd really enjoy it.
Ram1
Hehe, this is the stuff I would get flamed for on AGW if I were to say this about AH , the hipocrasy is simply amazing, ain't it Ram1? (Not you personally, just 'the chosen few' over 'there' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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Originally posted by cabby:
Vulcan, you are speculating. You don't have a clue to what you are talking about.
Cabby
Sheesh Cabby, is this really necessary? I'm really disappointed in you...again!
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Why Rips?
Vulcan is wrong about such dependencies between a 3D model and its FM. The only thing related to the 3D model are the hit boxes you use for the hit detection (or you use the polygons to get angles and other stuff for what damage the weapon makes).
So he was only speculationg and he didnt know what he was talking about.
Macchi
P.S.: The wing root on the AH Macchi looks terrible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (Sorry couldnt resist)
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Screw that I wanna model my pilot, big blonde curly hair waving in the breeze Kirk Douglas chin, Rock Hudson eyes, Charles Bronson physic, Jimmy Stewarts disposition, and Pee-Wee Hermans laugh this won't affect FM right?
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Torque's got the right approach (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hey Rip1, yeah you would definitely get flamed for it. I was just ribbing Yeager a bit, but I'm sure if you guys had an Allied vs Axis arena you too would think it was fun.
I find nothing more challenging then flying against period matched planes. Free for all fighting is OK as well, but the change of pace to allied vs axis is very welcome, without any of the ICON debate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ram1
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This is a great idea!
Look at all the great models that have come out for Rogue Spear since they released their 3DStudio Max 2.5 plugin. Granted it's a whole different ball game to mod for a "game" like that than it is to generate models for a "game" like this.
Check out my Rogue Spear models at http://members.xoom.com/SpyHome/rs/ (http://members.xoom.com/SpyHome/rs/)
I'd love to get to work on some models for HTC!
Also, I was one of the founding artist of the SAC for AW3. So I definnately know aircraft skins.
HTC! Let me at 'em!
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max 3D 2.5? last version I saw of Max was 3.1?
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Macchi (or should I call you Lemsko) was it not your very fine models that were turned down by iEN, not because they were sub-standard..indeed they are incredible when I think about the time you showed me your first attempt at modelling in the not so distant past when you visited me in the UK. This from what I was told was more to do with politics at iEN which is why you are working on another sim is it not? If your incredible models (including some very good skins) were turned down what chance has the rest of the community got? I beleive the whole thing was just a good PR stunt by iEN to make them look like they are tryign to involve the community.
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Yep, the latest Max is 3.1, but RedStorm's pluggin's aren't compatible with that version. They were written for R2.5
No bother, I don't have access to the new version anyway.
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Originally posted by Macchi:
Vulcan
the flight model would be created by the company if they have enough technical data for the aircraft. If they dont have the data, then the 3d model a user has sended would be useless for them.
Macchi
BINGO! OK now you guys are getting it. If there is no flight data, no physics for that particular aircraft then the model is "USELESS".
Now skins on the other hand is a cool idea, I guess they're just like oversized squad logos.
Hmmm I wonder if I could make a transparent skin for my 190???
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Revvin,
sadly you don't know nothing about the state at iEN. I do the things i think are best for me and my learning. Making models for different games is not a problem for me. I don't have any bad feelings if iEN won't accept my model, it is their decision not mine.
Personally i think its a good idea to be open to the power of your community. Like here in AH you always have talents around who are willing to do things to improove their game.
You can call me Lemsko where i have an account as Lemsko, here i opened my account as Macchi, so i am Macchi here.
Macchi
P.S.: Vulcan i don't know what you try to say. Because there exists planes where you dont have data for it is complete useless to use the power of your community? There are so many aircrafts not modelled in any sim even there is data available. I don't see your point, i only see you don't like to hear new about other sims and other ways of production.
[This message has been edited by Macchi (edited 07-26-2000).]
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My point is that even though an artist wont be supplying a FM, we will greatly enhance the speed by which a plane is deployed into the planeset by doing such a large portion of the work ourselves (at no cost to HTC). We would supply the model, textures, and likely the damage box data.
Naturally only planes that had available real-life test data could actually be deployed into the MA.
But then, you could use whatever for H2H or non-arena games with a friend or two I guess.
Of course I don't want to put Natedog our of a job (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
PS: I made a Eurocopter Colibri for MSFS98 becuase the ones I found on the net...well...sucked. Mine looked good, even had a virtual cockpit, but I never got the FM down right. c'est la vie!
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Macchi/Lemsko/Thorsten said:
sadly you don't know nothing about the state at iEN
Hmm a company that is in financial do-do, a big personality clash between two key members of the team, a programmer who ignores irefutable evidence that certain parts of the gunnery were flawed and a company that turns down your excellent 3D models..says it all for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Your models were excellent and it truly is iEN's loss and I am very happy that your talent has been recognised elsewhere.
Macchi/Lemsko/Thorsten said:
Personally i think its a good idea to be open to the power of your community
Me too, thats why I was stunned by the complete u-turn by iEN when they would'nt use your models, fair enough if they were below standard but they were easily as good as anything iEN had turned out...like I said their loss. You've been nothing but an asset to iEN since becoming a trainer, first your valued experience as a trainer and your excellent training videos and now some stunning 3D models...shame they are not harnessing that talent to their advantage.
Macchi/Lemsko/Thorsten said:
You can call me Lemsko where i have an account as Lemsko, here i opened my account as Macchi, so i am Macchi here.
Lemsko,Macchi,Thorsten..whatever, don't understand why you would change your name, most come from AGW incognito to stir up toejam, you haven't though, or is it you don't want to fall foul of the iEN paranoia machine considering your trainer status in WB? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I never did like Airwarrior...but one thing that always made me slightly envious was their 'skins' utility whereby they could change things such as the Fw190 skin from a western front to a winter eastern front skin and so on which I always thought would make scenarios just that little more immersive..even more so now the terrain editor is almost upon us. I remember the arguments down the years for and against, perhaps someone with experience using this utility in Airwarrior could explain what steps if any were in place to stop cheating such as dayglo skins? and if there was ever much cheating going on using this utility? Surely there has to be a way of controllign this from the server side? Sorry if I've drifted a little off topic here but if HTC were ever to allow user created models surely we could also have skins too?
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Hehe Revvin,
to tell you why i didnt heard anything is because they are really busy getting WB3.0 to life. The thing didnt stopped, it was only anounced by HS in a bad time period.
I use this pseudonym, because i used it for my AH trial account. Lemsko is also a pseudonym for games, Lem is my real live nickname like you know. I think it is my right to choose a name i want to and it makes it easier not to get thrown into a flame war, because someone decides i do this only to bash AH, which isnt right.
Why don't you wait and look what happens, i did not lost my hope to fly a Macchi (mine or someone else model, which does not matter)in Warbirds.
Good hunting Revvin,
Macchi alias Lem
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"what steps if any were in place to stop cheating such as dayglo skins?"
None. Anyone needing a day glow skin to gain some sort of advantage honestly just plain sucks as an online fighter pilot and ends up being shot down as readily as if he'd used the standard aircraft skins.
And to be honest most folks ("Quakers") who you would think might want to do this usually don't have the marbles to be able to.
-Westy
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Hi Westy,
that was 1 of the things we talked about at the Con. Allowing users to make skins or models would only run in 1 way. Submit your work to the company, company decides if its OK or it is not, then company offers it as an additional download for the players. So you dont have pink planes flying in the sky which are easy to identify.
You can't go to an OpenPlane thing like SDOE does, even there you have 1 set which is used for online gaming, if the data does not match then you could not fly on their servers.
All i can say it is a good way to get more variety for scenarios in the future.
For a company a special plane has to have its usage in their money making enviroment, so many planes are way back in the list, because they would never be used by players in the daily arena, but they are needed for some scenarios. Or why don't we see Blennheims, DO17s, Storchs etc.
Macchi
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Hiya LEM,
Well, I am eager to see what WB's 3 will bring to the market myself. In addition to the skins, has there been any discussion ( open discussion) as to new planes or FM changes?
ammo
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Its a shame, surely utilising your talent would have sped up WBIII a great deal.
Out of anyone from the WB community I would listen to your views because you've never gone out of your way to bash the competition, personally these days I find the WB communities bitterness overmodelled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Its a shame you had all those pseudonym's I would have loved to look you up online and wing with you for a while and pick up some more tips how to fly my Fw190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) See you round Macchi/Lemsko/Thorsten/Lem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Westy:
"what steps if any were in place to stop cheating such as dayglo skins?"
None. Anyone needing a day glow skin to gain some sort of advantage honestly just plain sucks as an online fighter pilot and ends up being shot down as readily as if he'd used the standard aircraft skins.
And to be honest most folks ("Quakers") who you would think might want to do this usually don't have the marbles to be able to.
-Westy
I painted Ki-84's pink and yellow but only cause it's a girly man's plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Skins don't load till 1500 or so in AW. With the gimme-a-range rangefinder skin's didn't make much difference. The N1K2 in 2D over pacific islands was the exception. It disappears into the green.
It was funny to watch a green B-17 come in from 5000k and turn silver at 1500k (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
IMO it wasn't the plane skins that saved AW, but the ability to use the excellent water, land and sky textures. Some of the ones Squirrel did look damn near 3D on a flat surface. A change of scenary is always nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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"Imagine getting up at 4 in the morning after drinking most of the night AND having to shoot down Jerry's. Thats why we won the war." -- "Obie" O'Brian