Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Swoop on January 14, 2003, 04:37:11 AM
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Posted on The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/28833.html).
The British public is voting enthusiastically for ID cards, claims Home Office minister and long-standing Blair bagman Lord Falconer. Or at least, the "around 1,500 people and organisations [who] have sent in their comments" to the current consultation exercise have split two to one in favour, while "450 volunteers" who're apparently being experimented on are even more pro.
In a press release issued last month, Falconer gets his retaliation in early. The six month consultation runs until the end of this month, but it's probably a good idea from the government's point of view to prepare the way for Home Secretary David Blunkett's inevitable announcement that cards are going ahead on the say-so of next-to-zero UK voters.
It should only take a couple of hours to reverse the poll overwhelmingly, and there are simple step-by step instructions in how to do this at the bottom of this page at stand.org.uk. There's also a useful HTML version of the government's huge consultation document here,, but for the busy libertarian we suggest the government's own recommended executive summary for kiddies, available from the Children's Rights Alliance for England. Spookily, this registered charity, while not formally endorsing the scheme, closely shadows the government's own positive spin.
Overseas readers are possibly not aware that it is a long-standing right of people in the UK not to carry any form of ID. Granted, these days it needs a particularly determined and cussed individual to not carry anything that could be used to at least take a stab at identifying them. And in some circumstances, some people might argue that it might be a tad reckless to argue the toss with the boys in blue when they ask you for ID. But the point is that, because you aren't compelled to have ID, you can't be legally required to prove who you are merely on the whim of some individual or agency.
Nor, at least theoretically, will you have to prove who you are or carry ID if the government's proposals come into force. Because these will not be ID cards, they will be entitlement cards.
They're being sold on the basis of a string of advantages. Notably convenience, because you won't have to keep giving the same information about yourself to various agencies, protection, because they'll cut down on illegal immigration, identity theft and benefit fraud. Stand provides a detailed rebuttal of the various claims (same url as before), but there are a couple of gotchas that particularly interest us.
It's worth noting that the Falconer release pulls out retinal scanning as a particular move the volunteers favour. This to some extent confirms our suspicion that the volunteers are Trekkies or deranged cybermen-wannabes, but closely shadows the consultation paper's apparent inclinations. Fingerprints and retinal scans are both suggested, although as far as we can gather the consultation does not flat-out ask: "Are you in favour of compulsory fingerprinting for everyone who wants to access government services?"
No, indeed not. But again it's worth noting the volunteers think this is a good idea. The consulation document does make it pretty clear that it's intended to be a lot more universal than just a system for interacting with goverment. It refers to "any additional revenue paid to the Government by partners who might wish to use the card to help administer their services," (i.e. they propose to flog the system to the private sector, and suggests "library services or concessionary travel; clubs, such as health clubs which often use cards to control access to their facilities; rail and bus companies for season tickets; retailers for loyalty card schemes; other private sector service providers such as motoring organisations" as examples.
In its basic form, the card will be a version of a kind of passport or driving licence card, and these two themselves will be polished up in order to combat identity fraud. There are standards issues in actually converging the lot into one card right now, but you can think of the one that nails the people without driving licence or passport as a notadriving licence and notapassport card. The consultation regards the three as closely related anyway, and discusses how passport and driving licence would act as entitlement cards, and how fees for them could be used to subsidise the notanID card for poor people, who will then be in a position to prove that they are poor people. This will be done by putting the fees up, naturally.
It also whinges about the difficulties and costs involved in not making the card compulsory (it'll cost an estimated £1.5 billion anyway, and that's before the traditional EDS-style government IT project cost overrun), so it's lucky the volunteers are pro compulsion. Who are they, anyway? We look forward to being told this, and who the enthusiastic organisations are, at the end of the consultation.
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I'm in two minds about it.
If it stops scummy bogus assylum seekers moving around the country unchallenged, then I'm all for it.
Those Al-Queda suspects with the ricin poison were assylum seekers, apparently, living off of government handouts. I should think they will get legal aid.
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Yeah well the problems are many.....
1) it'll cost 1.5 billion of our taxes to set this up.
2) BBC news has already proven it's a doddle to get your pic on someone elses ID card.......so how exactly is it gonna cut down on crime/asylum seekeers/etc?
3) In yet another Labour spin bollocks example, the Gov is trying to say that the British Public is overwhelmingly voting for the cards, when in reality no-one knows of anyone who's even been asked, let alone incidated they are in support.
It's just that yet again the Gov is trying to tell us to suck rotton eggs and that this is (apparently) what we asked for.
Bollocks. I voted for the other fella.
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Hey, you don't even live here anymore, you clog wearing, pot smoking traitor! :D
No, I do see your point though. Unless they are going to be fraud proof, they are pointless.
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I DO NOT wear cloggs.........and I dont appreciate being called a traitor either. :D
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How is this different than say a drivers license?
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Only recently have the British had drivers licences with pictures on them......in fact they're still not compulsary. My drivers licence is one of the old style (plain green with no picture), for example.
And there was a huge uproar when the Gov redesigned licences with pics on, people said it was only a matter of time before they got turned into ID card........well instead of saving some money and using these new drivers licences the UK Gov has decided we need a totally new ID card that wont be used for anything else and will cost 1.5 billion.
Hmm......
See, the point is that in GB you can leave your house with no ID whatsoever, no documents, no drivers license, nothing. If a policeman stops you and wants to see license, insurance, etc, they take down reg plates (and then know to who and where the vehicle is registered) and give you a little form (er....I forget what it's called - slang term is a "producer") which says you've gotta bring all your docs to the police station of your choice within a certain period (7 days? - dunno off hand). It's only a matter of time before ID is compulsary......and the system for getting IDs is seriously flawed.
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Haha backwards limey bastiges... :D Agreed really dumb idea based on what you guys say here...
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I DO NOT wear cloggs.........and I dont appreciate being called a traitor either. :D
Well, one out of three ain't bad. ;)
If you want a new drivers licence, you can only get the photo variety.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Haha backwards limey bastiges... :D Agreed really dumb idea based on what you guys say here...
Rephrase that pls. It's "backward limey bastige politicians".
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Originally posted by Dowding
If you want a new drivers licence, you can only get the photo variety.
Why would I want a new one? There's no points on this one.......and the Cloggie policemen have no idea how to read it.
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Change of address, change of name if you found Mr. Right, Swoop. ;)
If dog chews it up or it gets nicked - or if you have to give up your licence like I did.
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Granted, but right now I dont need one.
Anyway, drifting off topic here.... :D ......the real point I'm trying to make is that again and again the current Labour Gov is saying this is what we want when it bloody well isnt, never has been, never will be and we dont remember being asked about it either.
/Rant
Look at student grants. Gov cancelled all grants despite most SUs organising huge protests and petitions, what did they tell us? Large percentages of students polled agreed grants should be abolished. Bollocks, *I* wasnt asked my opinion.
/rant
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I was a student at the time too. I didn't receive a grant because my parents earnt too much, but they couldn't really afford to give anything - we were middle middle class, the part of society that always gets hit in these things. I didn't protest.
My main reason for apathy (;)), was that higher education had to be funded somehow - Thatcher had expanded it without any increased provision. So it was either suffer a decrease in quality, or find the funding from somewhere. Now, either taxes could increase or grants would be abolished and more money would be available as low interest loans.
The part I didn't like was the revision to the loans arrangement - because my uni course started before the revision, I don't have to pay a penny back until I earn £21,000 a year. I'm just under that, at the moment. My younger brother, OTOH, started after the revision and he has to start paying back after only £10,000 pa, which is peanuts!
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Alternatively you could move to another country and send em a photocopy of your middle finger.
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The thing about having an all singing all dancing ID card that will do all of these magical things (cut down on fraud/crime/bigus asylum seekers) - is that it will always be used as the one unimpeachable source of identity.
Assume now for a moment someone discovers how to fake them/make them/doctor them.
(which they will)
Suddenly you discover that you have been illegally claiming benefits in 6 cities in the UK, you have opened a bank account and fleeced your overdraft without paying it back, you have been charged and convicted of assault, but you absconded on bail.
Wait, who's that knocking at your door?
It's easy to identify people by using a cross check, but the National ID card will obviate all of that out of a need for convenience.
Identity theft would become even more lucrative.
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Wadda ya mean "which they will"?
They already have. A BBC news team went and got a copy of the birth cert of the British Home Secretary (v important Government minister), then rented a flat in his name to get some bills in his name, then joined a few video clubs, etc, and got all kinds of ID in his name.......then they went to see him and give him all these new IDs with the wrong photo on. He wasnt impressed.
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Hope they used it to buy X-rated films.
'Home Secretary divulges in animal sex"
Now THAT wuld make a compelling argument against it.
I hope you won't have this. And in Dk they're talking about installing cameras in public places like in the UK. Worst thing is many think it is ok.
'If you're a law abiding citizen you don't have to worry'. Does that mean yuo won't mind the government installing a GPS device under your skin, record all your conversations etc? I mean, if you're a law abiding...
It's scary the direction society is taking. More government control and monitoring. All while corporate interests are taking over the politicians.
Ugh.
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"I don't want it. The things you're offering me. Symbolized barcode, quick I.D. Oh Yeah!"
:mad:
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I thought about moving to another country. Australia looks good. It looks very good indeed.
My parents are moving to Cadiz in the next few years, so Spain looks good too. Although I love Zaragoza, so I'd go there. They have a couple of Irish bars for the Guiness, so the important things would be taken care of.
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ID cards are one of those ideas that sounds great until you actually come to implement it, there are too many loopholes. The Program made by the BBC, which was extreemly funny as well as being a little unsettling just brought into the public eye something which has been going on for years. Until the various government agencies can get their house in order and recover the thousands of bogus birth certificates and drivers licences it really isn't worth introducing an ID card system.
That's just if I was in favour of ID cards. We already have Passports and Drivers licences with our mugs on them, we really do not need another layer of documentation to reinforce and prove who we really are. If they really want to spend 1.5 billion on it they should probably look into increasing security and background checks in the DVLA and passport agency and give a bit of it to the police earmaked directly for the recovery and prosecution of people holding and creating bogus/fake documentation.
CCTV is aother issue, It seems to work very well in certain high potential troublespots like city centres at pub chuck out time. IMHO, worth the 'infringment' on my 'liberty' ;)
/rant
Don't get me started on sodding bastard student loans. Whole system must have been thought up by Ebineezer Scrooge. F***ing labour mizer bastards. I might even go for broke and vote for the Libs next time just because they seem to have a much more sensible student policy than anyone else. I'm on the old system too but it's seriously f***ing up quite a few of my mates lives just because they went to Uni a year after I did. Madness.
/rantoff
Gatso
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The only sure fire method to impliment ID cards is to instead make them chips and implant them. Perhaps in the back of the right hand or your forehead.
AKDejaVu
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skip the ID cards and go right to the eye scanners :)
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Damn right Eagler, if they wanna keep tabs on us then go for finger printing, retina scan and get a DNA sample at birth.
Until then any form of paper ID can be fraudulantly obtained.
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Damn Trekkies get everywhere :)
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I already have to carry an ID card and it's come in use a great deal. I wouldn't mind the proposed ID card if it incorporated passport, drivers licence etc.... BUT can you really trust the British government to implement it correctly and without fault... Nope! They're bound to screw it up bigtime.
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Papieren!