Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hristo on July 23, 2000, 03:23:00 PM
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Thanks to your immense skill and great bravery, you have once again proved that the best pilots in the world fly for the Luftwaffe.
The pilots who participated in this historical figh :
Camo
Snefens
Udie
Berserkr
Nath11
BigJoe
RAM
Vulcan
Dingy
Stoickov
are all awarded a Knight Cross Congratulations !
Also, these pilots will have the right to fly the Dora once it comes out of factory lines.
Horrido !
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]
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And here's the film of this great fight :
The Rumble (http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/horrido.zip)
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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WTG LW guys!!! We rocked!
I was doubting if to fly or not to fly the rumble until the very last moment. In the end Camo convinced me to join the LW...
so THANKS CAMO!...
<S!> P51's pilots (except one little runner (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) it was a blast!
Horrido! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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<S!> to all pilots who participated. Oh yeah, and a "hi" to all the pony "flyboys". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hristo, I remind you that Snefens and I are Officers of the Finnish Air Force. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, enough of bragging: It was an honour to fly in this event, I hope we can take a rematch in the near future - icons off or limited! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And RAM, it was a pleasure flying with you. No 190 match would be complete without your effort! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!>
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Skill?? Bravery??
Yer fulla horsecrap Hristo.
Yer vaunted LW did not merge correctly.. you brought them in two groups with the rear group higher than 15k.
Neither you or the ref's are able to understand the ROE?? Read it again. Mathman; thought u had an education.. and could read. You blew it. Period.
"Aircraft may climb to a maximum of 15k and no higher PRIOR to merge. Merge alt to be at 15k. Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k) Note that if you collide on the merge you are DEAD; you may not replane."
Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.
Bogus.. pure crap and days outta my life wasted because these pinheads can't read. Jeeezus; I'm so freakin pissed...
Udie.. why did you not bother with ROE? I'm stunned. As a ladder pilot I expected honesty from you. Cheap move; that.
LW.. you won nothing except my disgust.
And I'll thank the Snapshot folks for not scheduling one hour after a Rumble in the future. Thanks.
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-23-2000).]
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To be honest you proved only that 190a5 is superior to p51, what I told long time before.
Hope that one day we will chance to fly it RAF against LW.
Fariz
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/legion_fariz.gif)
[This message has been edited by Fariz (edited 07-23-2000).]
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S! to all. It was great fun.
I was lukcy to only get through minor damaged as I 3 times had a pony on my six closer than pleasant.
I was first 190 in the line and was happy that a cold merge had been agreed. After the merge I went up in an Immelman and looked up
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/six.jpg)
I went back into the fight and got on a p51's six. He went low with me right behind hitting him, and suddenly he broke up.
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/firstkill.jpg)
I now had a pony on my six, but he only damaged my cannon as he overshot.
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/closepass.jpg)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/closepass2.jpg)
I then got behind another p51 and smoked him.
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/smokep51.jpg)
He kept going for a while together with two other ponies also heavy damaged but soon to be dead.
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/smokers.jpg)
These pics are a bit simplistic of what really happend but grab my film for the whole thing (1.1 Mb) home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/rumble.zip
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"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
"Aircraft may climb to a maximum of 15k and no higher PRIOR to merge. Merge alt to be at 15k. Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k) Note that if you collide on the merge you are DEAD; you may not replane."
So...when Referees call Fight on, you are free to climb at will isnt it?. I saw clearly the "fight on" call, and so all pilots there.
I readed the ROE but the last word is of the referees and they called FIGHT ON. Punt. Like it or not, but if you dont like it, hang, please tell the Referees not us.
BTW for the time I started the immelmann there were 2 P51s over 18K. Can you explain it?.
And I did say nothing about it I simply dealed with them instead thinking that it was a cheat.
But that is not the matter, anyway. Udie and BERSERKR dragged 5 (FIVE) P51s low to the deck by themselves, and was THEN when you lost the rumble ,not before.
So dont blame LW, step a bit outside and take a look again. You'll see what I mean.
Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.
Look Hang, exactly 5 minutes after ending the rumble I was called to take dinner by my parents, and I cant ignore such call (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). I told to delay it 1 hour but there was a snapshot running after the rumble. We had 8 pilots available on LW side but there was an event running after us.
So again you arent objective with us, in this matter.
We won. From my point of view it was a fair fight. You may disagree but still you dont see the important thing, hang.
We had fun. All of us.
And that is what matters in the end isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Skill?? Bravery??
[/b]
Exactly. I was always aware of best pilots in the world flying for the Luftwaffe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It is not easy to take 1943 design against 1944 super ride, with its .50 cals enojoying range finders and extending its effective range beyond historical limits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yer vaunted LW did not merge correctly.. you brought them in two groups with the rear group higher than 15k.
2nd group was never above 15k until "Fight's on" was called. At that moment several P 51Ds were above us (watch the film).
Neither you or the ref's are able to understand the ROE?? Read it again.
[/b]
I understood that when orders are give the fight is on. Your higher P 51Ds seemed to have understood it correctly.
Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.
When we have the proper airplane (the Dora, in this case, not an 1943 A-5).
We fought even though the rules clearly favored P 51D side and its adavantages.
First the no icons was a problem. Then merge altitude was lifted to aid P 51D. Seems you won the RoE fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Face it, your pilots blew it. Smartly flown P 51 can beat 190 and you know it. That ack hugger seemed to be the smartest of all the Pony jocks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Next time we fly without icons too.
Bogus.. pure crap and days outta my life wasted because these pinheads can't read. Jeeezus; I'm so freakin pissed...
[/b]
Are those Pony pinheads ? You should have planned you strategy better. Now the P 51D contingent lacks these same pinheads that died in The Rumble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Udie.. why did you not bother with ROE? I'm stunned. As a ladder pilot I expected honesty from you. Cheap move; that.
[/b]
2nd group was never above 15k until fight was on. At that moment P 51Ds were higher than us. We just continued climbing.
LW.. you won nothing except my disgust.
[/b]
Hehe, we are still enemies. But some respect might be in order. Afterall, we proved our point, right ?
P.S.
It is my opinion that Allied side here whined a lot more than Luftwaffe. Remember no icons discussion ? Blending camo and 190 conspiracy ? 190s not dropping wings when stalling ? About LW hiding and avoiding the fight ? And now RoE violation ?
What's next ? Porked FMs ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Repeat.. you proved diddly.. this is just pure crap. Just watched yer film.
You lead 12 planes against our 10.
And; you blew the merge ROE flat out.
When Udie offered to boot the xtras; you refused.
The two section ROE bustin merge was PLANNED.
Scum. You get NO respect. Yer lower than cat crap.
Hang
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Originally posted by Hristo:
2nd group was never above 15k until fight was on. At that moment P 51Ds were higher than us. We just continued climbing.
I support that affirmation. While I was going thru the P51s with FIGHT ON Call done, as soon as I surpassed them (I was in the vanguard a bit after Snefens) they started pulling a zoom away.
As soon as I started the immelmann after merging with the rear P51's I looked vertical and I saw just the same as Snefens' snapshot shows. In that snapshot, BERSERKR, udie and Hristo havent merged the P51s and there are FOUR!!!!! P51s HIGHER THAN the "cheating" Udie and Berserkr.
Hangtime please...you have all my respect, but this time you have the proof just on your noses, if someone cheated here it wasnt the Luftwaffe.
Please calm down and take a look to what happened.
We won in a fair fight. We flew better. We did better.
So we are legal winners.
It is my opinion that Allied side here whined a lot more than Luftwaffe. Remember no icons discussion ? Blending camo and 190 conspiracy ? 190s not dropping wings when stalling ? About LW hiding and avoiding the fight ? And now RoE violation ?
I think that with no icons on we would have won by even more, maybe 9-2 instead 9-4 (that of course if Citabria keeps on Huggin ack and running away instead fighting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
I,again, salute you the nine good P51 pilots. Was a blast!
<S!>
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Hangtime-
I did my best in all ways. Sorry you are so disappointed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Was it really 12 on 10 LW favor? If so, then this doesn't prove much. Let's just get this straight before we argue anymore.
I was on the allied side and hangtime and I landed once we were already in the air because we thought we outnumbered you.
I'm still not saying that the LW pilots did not fly well or anything like that, because they did allright, but if the odds were stacked in their favor..
Also, I think Hangtime is a little peaved about not being able to fly in this thing. He was kinda the main P-51 guy, and like me, im sure he was kinda pissed when he had to make the decision to land.
BTW, my nickname in the rumble was CJ
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Yep I count 12 v 10 in Snefens pic, Hang bumped himself and CJ in fair play. Bummer!
Who's the opportunist's?
Shame Shame!
Was still fun (sorta) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Repeat.. you proved diddly.. this is just pure crap. Just watched yer film.
You lead 12 planes against our 10.
This is where you have the point !
Luftwaffe pilots and Allied opportunists, I appologize for greatest mistake I made in AH.
Just watched the films carefully.
There were 11 190s, not 10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
By checking formation I saw MooseEAF as part of our squad ("Luftwaffe"). That's when I told him that he is no part of our squad. No replies on channel 4. Others informed me about squad clone possibility.
And it was true, he formed his own Luftwaffe squad and flew with us !!!
Even when we found out it was still my impression that we had 10 pilots, not 11 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). My mistake was to turn down Udie's offer(that's when I replied to Udie: "NO, WE NEED HIM TO EVEN THE NUMBERS").
I never wanted this guy to fly with us and was actually pissed about how the hell he entered our squad. He proved it by getting shot among the first and hanging in his chute during most of the engagement.
Sorry, this is a serious mistake on my side, our formation had 11 instead of 10 planes. There were 12 and even more planes on the runway, however I told them to exit plane (minus and Niteflyr can confirm this).
I appologize about this mistake and you are right. Our 11 plane formation was against the rules. However, it was not inentional and never planned. A toejamty coincidence.
If others agree, we should have a rematch. And only due to the 11th man. Other rules were never broken, at least not by Luftwaffe side.
And; you blew the merge ROE flat out.
[/g][(quote]
??? 15k level merge, waiting for referee to announce the Fight's on. How do you explain higher P 51s then ?
When Udie offered to boot the xtras; you refused.[/b]
You have the point here. My mistake, big enough to put shame on Luftwaffe side in this duel.
I was never aware that we have 11 planes. However, if you want to blame your failure on a newbie (or possible provocator) forming his own Luftwaffe squad clode, you are free to do so. I can't add more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
The two section ROE bustin merge was PLANNED.
[/b]
Two sections were planned. RoE bustin' was not planned and RoE was not broken. Check the film.
Scum. You get NO respect. Yer lower than cat crap.
[/b]
I admit my mistake sabout MooseEAF.
The rest is not true, Luftwaffe pilots beat you there, despite 11th man.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hang, take a break. For you to be yelling at the organisers of the snapshots just shows how overserious you're taking this.
There was bound to be bitterness, it's just a pity to see Hristo fanning the flames. Big <S> to RAM though, since he's not taking the same route (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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From Snefens' film, the Luftwaffe take off formation:
Snefens
Nath11
RAM
BigJoe
Dingy
Camo
+ MooseEAF
other side of runway:
Stoickov
Vulcan
Udie
Berserkr
(Minus never took off, he was sitting on the runway).
However, Minus is irrelevant. We did not have 12 planes. We had 11. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]
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You counting the guy filming Hirsto?
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Originally posted by Camel:
You counting the guy filming Hirsto?
I just did as him, watched the film again.
11 guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
see we where well organized each one had its own wingman...
GROUP I:
-------
Stoickov -Vulcan
Udie -BERSERKR
GROUP II:
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Camo -Snefens
Nath11 -dingy
RAM -BigJoe
MooseEAF was an unwanted walkon, and we nearly realized it when in flight. Hristo told udie not to dump him because he thought he completed our group (he took a look at the roster,fer sure, I did the same. there were 10 people in LUFTWAFFE squad...9 in Hristo's squad, one in a "clone" squad)
So he thought we were 10. I did think it too.
IMHO this guy (one I never saw in MA in my LIFE) was some disturbing one, who deliverately sabotaged the rumble.
We all fell like stupids. But Hristo was 9 K away from our group...maybe it was my failure not to take a better look at it, as I asked myself what the hell was doing that one with us...
but when I saw him listed as "luftwaffe" in roster and when I counted the luftwaffes in the roster (10), I stopped worrying about it, and kept thinking in the rumble.
Was an unfortunate thing...or he is a saboteur or he is a newbie...
dunno (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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CC,counted him too (Snefens).
Minus was OTR, but was ordered to exit plane (with honest intention to fly with 10 planes, not more). Nash announced no more walkons and new pilots in formation, so I had to turn down Minus.
Still, it makes it 11. Of MooseEAF I found out later. Him taking off with us was a bad mistake. His forming of squad with identical name was incredible coincidence. It was also the reason I believed that I may have invited him earlier. A bad coincidence, without intention to break the rules.
Tired of it for now, sorry
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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And yes, no mergediver will call me a scum that bends the rules.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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w0w! we had +1 person (newbie), I bet that saved us!
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Ok... I was heading up the Refs so I better jump in here.
1st of all there were 11 planes per side... NOT 10, like Hang and Hristo reported... and not 12 vs 10 like Hang claims.
2nd. There was a *frantic* discussion regarding the merge between myself and the other ref's (mostly Mathman)- when we saw what was happening. When we realised that there were inded two groups (and this was not just LW, the Ponys split into two also) we were left with trying to distinguish just what the hell the merge WAS.
Now - the ROE was completely fediddleing FUBAR. Blame THAT - and do NOT insult us by saying that us 'pinheads' cannot read. I assure you we are quite capable of it. Insulting Mathman's 'education' is an insult to me... I very much appreciated his help.
Now here's what was wrong with the ROE that *you guys* came up with, and here's what us refs did.
Number one - you gave each side *two* fields to up from. Now - why in the world would this be done unless you wanted the flights to come in stagered? No reason to, unless for some reason you wanted to meet in the middle, form up and go into the merge together... so no... no reason to do that.
Now what we got is 4 different flights. The ROE states:
"Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k)".
Let me parse this.
You acknowledge that the flights would be spread out. Now look at this realistically in terms of a merge. Do you seriously expect that the 1st two groups would meet up, then fly around in circles with eachother in some kind of a big AC stew waiting for the rest of the flights to show up? That's a tad untennable, no? So the LW's 2nd group shows up, joins in the mosh pit and waits till the 51's 2nd group comes blazing in and THEN the fight starts?
"The observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction." When Mathman and I saw that y'all were staggering, and realized what was gonna transpire, I gave orders to Mathman to call "fight on" once the 1st acceptable, clean merge had taken place. Merge conditions had taken place to our satisfaction, we called it, and the fight was on.
A couple things Hang. 1st of all... I was riding observer with you, but because you either damaged yer plane or made a tactical decision, you decided to land only 2-3 minutes after upping. You screwed the landing, burrying yer prop on the pavement... and this perhaps accounts for just a little of yer ire? Regardless.. because of this I was stuck in the twr and left it to Mathman to call the merge. We were in constant direct communication and I'm fully satisfied that he called it right. Another thing - you seemed to be completely unaware (u missed the buffer) that the "fights on" had been called till almost 10 minutes later. You can't blame anyone else for that. And you can't blame the LW for seeing it and engaging.
Frankly I'm a little annoyed at this. I had hoped this would be a tense little scuffle, yes.. but it's just a freaking BLIP as far as these kinds of events go. Ya had yer shot, ya lost, but there will be many many more. And pretty much, the object is to have a scream flying in one of these things. To take it so personally, and to insult everyone around you (the people that took the time to be here and fly in this, the people that organized this, the people that tried to make it go smoothly) is outrageous.
I want to congralute the LW on thier win. And I want to congratulate ALL the flyers for their work in preparing and competing as best ya could.
I would hope that the guys on the losing side, whether justified or not... could just give a <S>, and plan on stickin' it to 'em next time. This kinda ranting serves nobody.
You guys authored that fediddleed ROE. Live with it.
I was gonna whip up a thing on the Rumble site documenting the fight, the preperations, etc. etc... But I'm a bit disgusted. Instead I'll only offer this:
(http://www.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/hoganklink.jpg)
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there is only one person to blame for the p51s being slaughtered and thats me.
I lead the mustangs and turned the p51s into the 190s and sealed them into a defensive position instead of leading them into a high speed climb without and turn on the merge. effectively delivering them on a pladder to the LW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
the 190s subsequently ravaged the p51s. We tried in vain to clear the 6's of our team members even though multiple 190s were always in firing range on everyones 6.
sadly the only one to survive was me.
my wingman is dead. the entire flight is dead. the 190s on my 6 have shot away my flaps while i tried to shoot them off my fellow flyers only to watch them flick and roll away after getting a single innefective burst of 50cal. I watch helplessly as the other last remaining p51 who has an oil leak is engulfed in a sea of red after his engine dies. I get angry for a second about my inability to stop the hoard of jerry's almost to the point that i dont care if they shoot me down now. but wanting revenge I start that highspeed climb up to 20k with the 190s on me all the while taunting on the open channel saying "runstang 51 dweeb turn and fight". I think to myself 'I turned 9 mustangs into that fight already on their terms'. so seeing the moment i barrel roll down onto the 6 of a 190 and spray him w 50 cal to no effect. now the other 190s are on me spraying me with their "ineffective" cannons so split s dive for the deck and run for the acks of the nearby base. the taunts continue. they want me dead. so in frustration I land the remains of my p51 and exit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-------------------------------------
here is the merge. the lowest p51 is at 15k the highest are stalled out in a zoom climb at around 20k. the 4 190s at the top right are around d6 at about 18k and joining the fight. there are 11 190s and 10 p51s
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/six.jpg)
p.s.
Ironically the LW has guaranteed that the fw190d9 will be released only as a perk plane since the 190a5 is superior to all aircraft in AH as is.
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Citabria
"You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with friggin laserbeams attached to their heads."
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Nath...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
So sorry things have bent this much...your work is well apreciated by everyone...and I mean EVERYONE. I am sure that after some relax and sleep Hang will see that his reactions werent that fair, right now he is outraged (and I can feel what happens with him...remember, the "official hot blooded guy of Aces High" is me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), but I am sure he also thanks you for your work and effort.
If I must be sincere I wanted to stay clear of the rumble because I was sure that something like this would happen. And as I was unwantedly involved in the duel of Hristo vs hangtime because a misunderstanding I thought that it was better for me to stay clear of this event.
Now I can say that I am proud that I was there and flew. And I very deeply thank you, Nath, and Mathman and Kieren for being there and working hard to bring this up.
<S!> all of you. Thanks for your effort and please dont beel that bad. You did your best and we all (AND I MEAN ALL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) apreciate it.
S!
(Edit...change all Nath's for Nash's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) damn I must be VERY dumb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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hehe RAM that's the 3rd time you've called me 'Nath' today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for yer sentiment Ram... I appreciate it.
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LOL!!!!
The other day I was in TA and I flew with nath...I didnt stop callimg him nash!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry nath...er nash...er...
whatever (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Citabria:
6.
I watch helplessly as the other last remaining p51 who has an oil leak is engulfed in a sea of red after his engine dies.
Very poetic ,but not quite true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) the only Fw190A5 after thunder was me, the red sea of cons was on your 6 ... and you were on my long 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I killed it and did a high yoyo that ended in your low 6 of course much slower (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) you didnt try to intercept my yoyo in any moment (I'd have done that as the rumble was clearly lost...but WTF, I'm only a dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Still the Ack hug was a bit embarrasing and so your refuse to come down and fight.To come down and try to kill one or two before dying..that was what I'd had done...
but of course ,as I said, I'm only a dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s.
Ironically the LW has guaranteed that the fw190d9 will be released only as a perk plane since the 190a5 is superior to all aircraft in AH as is.
Good bait, Citabria...
but sorry I think noone will bite this one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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me and nash get kicked at last 30 sec suxx if u due this before we can go to ponys !!!
damit Co are u diletant or just incapable ?
who of u have military carer ? i see probably nobady
so why this mesi organization :-))))
cya and nxt time THInK a litle more and FASTER ! :-)))))
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Btw - to completely shut the door on the 10v10, 11v11, 12v10 debate I'll say that there was tons of communication on this between the refs on both sides. We saw it from the start, and since the sides were even, didn't say anything.
If you dispute the numbers - looks at Snefen's photo, and consider that the 11th 51 was Hang's... in the hanger for repairs.
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Dang i luv watching these film they are the cat's ass.Nice stuff everyone <S>
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I had one of the best views of the fight, I was the last and slowest 51's bringing up the rear.
Upon seeing the intial gaggle, I went lvl/WEP (I had just at that moment hit 15k) and kinda freaked as all these 190's nosed towards me. Guns cold was a good idea. I keep heading in, a pair of 190's show up to my 2, higher then all but Ammo and Maniac from my POV. They streak past. Another pair of 190's pop up at dead 12 o'clock high. They are already engaged with 3 or 4 Mustangs that had just immeled towards the others. One of the 190's breaks right on top of me and comes rolling down. I pancake down on him, follow through his dizzying rolls putting a few pings in here and there.
We're totally away from the fight now, just me and this 190. He keeps rollin, I wait for him to try and make me fly past. He rolls earthward and I pull up hard and roll over, he flounders and boom (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice flying Udie.
Ahhh first blood.
But now I'm on the deck and the fight is going on 10k above me. I start climbing up when Ammo, I believe, comes past with two 190's on his tail. I saddle up and pull through the black out and start working for the shot. Another 190 moves on my tail, I break and almost ram the other 190 when he pulls up. I blow it and lose oil and a flap. Getting desperate I scissor and this 190 that just shot me over shoots. Just outta gun range I see the other 190 on 6. I get stupid and do a huge neg G pushover. I scissor some more but rudder is the only thing workin at 95mph indicated. Few more cannon shells. Ouch me dead.
Oh well.
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 07-23-2000).]
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well its my fault the p51s lost the way they did RAM. I lead them right into the trap and got them all killed.
do you think HTC wont make the d9 a perk plane? my opinion is that they will.
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Originally posted by minus:
me and nash get kicked at last 30 sec suxx if u due this before we can go to ponys !!!
damit Co are u diletant or just incapable ?
who of u have military carer ? i see probably nobady
so why this mesi organization :-))))
cya and nxt time THInK a litle more and FASTER ! :-)))))
Let me assure you, Hangtime, Hristo and Nash
all did their best to make this happen. Comments such as yours show an utter lack of understanding and appreciation for the work that was done before you ever showed up today.
It is a shame that things blew up the way they did. I think that, in the end, even those that are angry will see things a bit differently.
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Yah; Hristo I'm pissed. And you are pond scum. You know why I'm pissed? Because you went outta yer way to hand us a screwed fight from the start... I spent quite a bit of my time trying to set this up.. and EVEN TURNED MY PLANE AROUND AND LANDED TO 'EVEN' THE SIDES.
What did you do?? Nothin but everything you could to delay it; then cried 'underdog' every minute since. Yah did nothin to promote the event; to schedule the event; to assist planing the event. You played obstructionist to the bitter end... but jumped right up and thumped yer chest crowin "Superior LW!" after it was over. My ass. Even when given the chance to simply square the pilot counts, you couldn't do that.
I asked flat out for a LW count before I turned myself around to land. Also in the textbuffer is your jovial invitation to the REAL LW for the 'interloper'. After Udie offered to boot him. Now; yer implying we sent him there. You can't count? How many DOTS did you see? I counted mine.. and turned around and LANDED. Seemed the HONORABLE thing to do. Boy; what a MISTAKE it was to think you'd fly a fair fight.
I'm purely ticked off.. watched the LW film carefully. The 2 section ROE busting merge was planned. No ponys were above 15K before the purely BS 'FIGHTS ON' call, and here; the REFEREE (Mathman) decided to run his own ROE... and none can claim it did not absolutly favor the the LW's pre merge positioning. Further it was the LW's observer that made that call. This is BS!
Before you make any more swellheaded BS claims to victory YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO you'd best have a FAIR fight to base it on!! Same ROE; and THIS time the same number of pilots IN THE FIGHT; and BOTH observers had best by god READ THE ROE!
Duma.. this setup has been on the boards for two weeks. I did everything I could to make sure I did NOT displace or incovieneince any other event. I'm now insisting that the same courtesy be extended to any future Rumbles. Scheduling that Snapshot so close behind our event was a gawdamned mistake. In the future; it would be best to be sure Snapshots are no closer 6 hours either side of a Rumble to keep either venue from being forced off by the other.
Allied pilots & LW.. sorry fer the Rant.. but this crap really pissed me off. My anger is directed at Hristo and Mathman for blowin this thing into the crapper for us all... then refusing to refly it right there in then. My apologies for any embarassment in that rigged fight. Maybe next time we'll get the deal we came for.
Hang
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My God!
Listen to all of you! The allies are whining about a merge that may or may not have been fouled up and the friggin Luftwaffe are rubbing the Allies noses in it!!
THIS is why I've taken so much time off from Aces High. The attitudes and egos are getting just like they were in AW when it went to all you can eat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Whining about a friggin merge and then having the LW gloat about the victory. I had fun....this sure spoils it.
-Ding
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Kurt Tank would be proud. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ya lost fair and square hang, get over it and call for a rematch.
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I gave Mathman very specific instructions. He followed them exactly. Any crap directed to him should be directed to me.
(this is bordering on pathetic)
I'm gonna just toss out this bit of advice. A battle was won/lost. The respect you engender, trust me, is *not* based on the outcome... but how you *deal* with the outcome. That fight fades - the perceptions of the people involved, less so.
Look. Bragging/whinning does nothing for either of you. No matter how at a disadvantage you feel you were, muster up the courage to salute, and plan to kick eachother's bellybutton the next time. Unless you plan on doing it next time with an army of one.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Before you make any more swellheaded BS claims to victory YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO you'd best have a FAIR fight to base it on!! Same ROE; and THIS time the same number of pilots IN THE FIGHT; and BOTH observers had best by god READ THE ROE!
I simply refuse to be part of a rematch of this after seeing all these reactions.
I thought that was all a matter of hot heads after the rumble but I see I was wrong.
Hang...well I wont say anything. But I feel sad because I didnt expect this from you.
I dont feel like we cheated. I know that I saw P51s zooming away as soon as I merged them. I know we were all at 15K until fight on call was done.
I know that there were 11 of us, but I realized if AFTER The fight not before.
If you blame Hristo and you call him cheater then you are calling it to me too as I was in the same formation as the eleventh and I DIDNT REALIZE he made number 11. So Hristo, 8K away had worse problems than I do.
Anyway, enough of this. I simply refuse to take part in a rematch if the objective is a stupid "we are better than you" . I decided to play a part in the rumble because I wanted to have fun and thought we were all there to do the same. I see I was wrong. And I am starting to regret that I flew it.
But this is a mistake I wont repeat. Rematch the friggin damned duel again if you want, but I wont be there to see the yells moans and rants I've seen this time, again.
Enuf of this crap. Going to sleep.
Never felt so much deception in AH as I did tonight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Kieren ? what that ?
every thing what is in event arena is it just like today , to much chaos and who go where waitng for 20, 30 min doh ???
is it hard to say in Global chanel hey Yuo lame minus go there Du this !!! ha ?
so hard to makea decision >?
damit
for thwe order why is not POP up just like a Training arena topic ??????
you Fly Military planes , so think with Military discipline , and i not mena Militant !!!!
anyway about result of the rumble , the planze like P51 190 egal speed agal E agal ALt the beter win
when any side just have a litle more ALt or E after climb above 15 after dive back ( cheat E ) is a winer no miracle :-))
Hang is a respected pony driver :-) and nota esy target and hi know wery well the Walue of Alt E Speed , all of u know this so Dont sig a big glory about u but be hapy u got the chance be have Advantage :-))
nice fight , ee no fight but masaker :-))
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Jeezuz. Hang... chill man. Heres what I saw
- LW had two groups (almost 3 cos udie was lagging behind)
- at the 1st merge there seemed to be a front group of 51s and rear group
- me and hristo were ahead of udie/beserker
- hristo started to roll in at merge, i called hold so we could lead the ponies nose a bit
- looking at the film right after the merge at least 4 ponies zoom hi, udie/beserker pull up towards them
- at no point do udie/beserker have alt on the ponies, nor any sort of E advantage
Hang, whether the details of the ROE were broken or not, I think the merge was OK. LW didn't gain anything energywise.
I think what u guys up was we flew as LW really flew, split into distinctive 'pairs', with two sections. At the merge this confused the pony gang. Pretty much like the early war LW vs RAF.
Hang, what about the fact u guys hung around 22 for so long? What were u trying to acheive? Or what about the pony I chased back to 22, where I had to break off to avoid becoming flak-bait?
All in all hang the victory was decisive, I don't think what ur squeakin about would have made a huge difference.
Have a beer!
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Hmmmmm, I thought that war ended 55 years ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/legion_fariz.gif)
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/trainers_logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by Fariz (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Nash.. you are incorrect.. 3 counts. One; we upped 12 pilots. I asked for clairification on LW count was told '10" by YOU.
They at that time had 11 in formation; 7 in group one..
Nath11
Camo
Dingy
MooseEAF
BigJoe
RAM
Snefens
4 in group Two
Hristo
Vulcan
Udie
Berserker
Check the film. Minus rolled and was in the air also but I will not count him as I do not think he was a combatant. He was 12th LW.
Whats really screwed here as we also had 12 pilots up.. and after you confirmed 10; I handed over lead to citabria and pulled myself and CJ outta the fight and crash landed TO EVEN THE SIDES. More miscommunication. I also told you to switch to Citabria.
Further; CavemanJ decided to fly on in with a P38.. adding even more disruption. He was upped as rook I think.
Second.. the ROE you looked at and posted got yer offical okey dokey.. I have the email. What in hell possesed u and mathman to re-write it to suit yourslves at the last second in flight?? I could not have been clearer.. ALL PLANES PASS CLEAR! That was written to PREVENT a two section merge!
Third.. the ponies ALL merged. The LW DID NOT! The trail elements of the LW Section 2 were climbing and turning BEFORE THEY COMPLETED ANY KIND OF MERGE! Dammit; what in hell did you guys think you were doing calling 'fights on' before ALL aircraft had passed? The ponies reacted instantly to the call and if you'll post the screenshot from hristo's plane the second that statement appears in the textbuffer you will see that not even the first section has fully merged yet AND NOT ONE PONY IS ABOVE 15k!
Lastly.. thank you. Your efforts; as are all the others ARE appreciated. This was a trial.. and I'll not do it again once this thing is settled with a rematch. I DO think you stepped well outta bounds by re-writing that ROE in the air.. you should have NOT done that. My aplogies fer yer smooshed toes.. but dammit; that dam ROE was meant to PREVENT just what they pulled.
*Sigh*
Hang
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Originally posted by minus:
Kieren ? what that ?
every thing what is in event arena is it just like today , to much chaos and who go where waitng for 20, 30 min doh ???
is it hard to say in Global chanel hey Yuo lame minus go there Du this !!! ha ?
so hard to makea decision >?
damit
for thwe order why is not POP up just like a Training arena topic ??????
you Fly Military planes , so think with Military discipline , and i not mena Militant !!!!
anyway about result of the rumble , the planze like P51 190 egal speed agal E agal ALt the beter win
when any side just have a litle more ALt or E after climb above 15 after dive back ( cheat E ) is a winer no miracle :-))
Hang is a respected pony driver :-) and nota esy target and hi know wery well the Walue of Alt E Speed , all of u know this so Dont sig a big glory about u but be hapy u got the chance be have Advantage :-))
nice fight , ee no fight but masaker :-))
I do not intend this to be disrespectful- but I cannot understand what you are saying.
What I am referring to is how much preparation went into the event leading up to this day. It was quite a bit on many people's part. You were asked not to participate, that was your side's CO's call to make. I'm sorry that happened, but if everyone on both sides doesn't show, and it is supposed to be a fight of equal numbers, what else can be done?
One thing is clear to me; this should have been done in good faith with the intent of fellowship and fun. It is also clear to me that this has gone way beyond healthy bounds. Yes, the 51's were slaughtered. Yes, there are questions about how many of each side were actually there. Both sides acknowledge this. Film verifies it. That should nullify the contest and demand a rematch- if indeed you can find anyone willing to go through this again. I guess I am hoping both sides can have enough class and be adult enough to stop name-calling and either fly it again or drop it.
As for the scheduling, that must lie with me; I didn't have it on the calendar, so I must have overlooked it somehow. I do know what happened with the time (rumble 2PM EDT, yamamoto 4PM EST). At a glance it looked 2 hours apart, when it was actually 1 hour apart.
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"youth and skill are no match for old age and trickery"
hehe
its clear the letter of the law and not the spirit was followed.
its obvious the intent of the ROE was for a clean merge with all aircraft merging at the same time.
the p51s were prepared for this and indeed expecting this much in the manner of a classic 1v1 duel with 10 planes merging together guns cold then getting the fight on.
the mustangs became aware of a side imbalance and were told there were 10 LW so 2 P-51s landed to even the numbers.
meanwhile the LW was planning an ambush with 2 separate flights flying out of icon range. the LW was aware of their 11th member but chose to keep him instead of ejecting him so that they could "even the numbers"
live and learn (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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...
nah, why keep on fighting for the impossible.
I give up,Hangtime. I dont know if you dont read my posts or you simply ignore them...
What I know is that I feel insulted. And pissed. ANd annoyed...
But avobe all...dissapointed with your reaction.
Oh well I've always have respected you. And admired you. When happened something that was able to break the mutual respect I thought we had I took good care to put it straight ASAP...
now I simply dont know what to think. Your reaction is stronger than any one I've ever had. And while I'm a 22 year old hot blooded child you are a mature man. ANd never in your posts saw something like this from you. I've always thought that you were a sport and took AH like it is: A game.
NEver expected something remotely near this from you. And now I feel dissapointed.
nothing that anyone cares about it, of course, but I still do feel this way.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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RAM I'm sorry.. but you were lead down a garden path. I have no beef with the LW pilots. They did their job damn well.
My beef is with the Ref's that took it upon themselves to re-write a locked ROE; and with your lead pilot that knew damn well what he was about.. and that he set out to pork the ROE with a two section merge. Then when udie pointed the extra man out and hristo was SHOWN that he had a stacked deck Hristo decided to continue. He was responsible to bring a cadre of pilots into the fight within the terms of the ROE. He made sure that did not happen. That responsibility is HIS not yours. Not your plan. His.
Toes are gettin crunched; and I'm sorry.. but that's life. I'll get over it. But I'll not have hristo braggin on a victory he stole by deciet without gettin the truth in..
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Hang
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ram we have somthing to settle btw since I'm a total coward and all.
look forward to dueling you 1v1 at your covenience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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cool one kieren i like u :-) i got angry only short instant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
anyway the score landing and rumble is it not the Quality of pilot ! so Hang keep UP u are 1 of best pony drivers and when suckers like my sometime shot u down ( before i die 20 time ! :-))) ) u still know u are the Big pony drivers :-)) about FW driving is it a lusk and Hot head ! is it imposible to fly like a pony and all what i can sat about super howg drivers , i dont like u all , becose the quality is not u but your plane and the damned cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Citabria:
ram we have somthing to settle btw since I'm a total coward and all.
look forward to dueling you 1v1 at your covenience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We have a nice and bright ladder for such things. I am currently challenged but dont worry as soon as I fight my next duel we'll set the 1on1.
BTW what has cowardice to do with pilot skills?
and about cowardice... must I remember you that "memorable" ack hugin you did over A1 only to find me right into your 6?.
Oh, dont worry I dont pretend to be better pilot than you are. Still I'll fight you.And who knows maybe there is a surprise.
Of course I expect you not to run...nor ack hug...
-----------------------
Hang, you still dont get my point, and sorry I am too tired and sad now to keep on discussing it. Maybe when some time passes and hot blood is pumped away.
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ah memories (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
lol
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While my better judgement tells me to pull out of this thread, I guess I owe to whomever, due to the ammount of time everyone expended, to answer to the finger pointing.
For one... 10 v 10 was the *final* agreement made between Hang and Hristo prior to the launch. More than that launched... on both sides. The communication (amongst the refs)re 11 planes per side happened before the 2 51 pilots landed. We settled it, and were comfortable that both sides had equal (if not more than claimed nor agreed to) pilots. Hang, it makes little difference to me that you made some kinda arrangement amongst yer group that 2 of ya would land after discovering your error. I had no idea what ya were up to, and as far as I'm concerned, you broke the ROE by upping with more than the agreed to number of pilots. The launch was an official 'state'. After launching, the fields were switched off to prevent re-ups. Both sides agreed to 10v10 prior to the merge... and if y'all couldn't keep yer side together on that, ya may wanna rethink how ya go about pulling yer men together. I aint gonna take any blame on that, and further, this had so little to do with the outcome as to be well... moot. Just tossed out there at this point to thinken the mud.
Re the merge.
Picture this... I'm reffin' in your plane Hang, and Mathman is reffin' in Hristos. I'm sitting in yer plane after the "ROLL" has been called. A bunch of you 51's launch... but you and about 1/2 the flight are still waiting on the runway... and waiting... and waiting.
Meanwhile... I'm talking to Mathman, getting a feel for whats going down on his end. He tells me that the 190's are split up into 2 groups.
Then the rest of the 51's launch... So ok. Maybe now I can get a picture of whats going on. But no... after a coupla minutes ya rev and crash into the field that ya up from. At this point, Mathman is saying that a merge is about to happen, what should he do? Well... *I* sure as hell can't call "fights on"... I'm in the damn tower. I ask if I can observe from any of the 51s that are airborne if I can now observe from their plane. No answer. So it's up to Mathman. He says the two sides are about to smack into eachother. I tell him that if the altitude/cold pass restrictions are met, to call the fight on. Which he did.
So that's what happened from my end.
Now I got a coupla questions for you.
1) Just why.... *why* would ya designate two bases to up from when ya wanted both sides to bump into eachother at the same time? I simply cannot understand this. My thinking, when I saw the ROE, was "ahh... interesting... there's is gonna be some strategy involved here". Guess not. I'm just baffled by this.
2) Hristo's flight stagered... YOUR flight stagered... Why? And now - *how the hell do you see a merge being played out with 4 seperate flights entering at 4 seperate times?!* Really Hang - I wanna hear it.. Tell me like "Well, when the 1st two groups met, I expected them to hold fire and sort of circle around waiting..." etc. "Then, when the 3rd group entered the dance - we'd all just kinda, ya know, hover around waiting for the last flight to come diving in - THEN the fights on".
I made a call when it was relayed to me that this was happening. In my mind, we had 4 seperate flights... 2 in front, 2 in rear. When the 1st two came at eachother, that was it.. Fights on. I told Mathman to call it like that. I didn't really *expect* it, but there it was. I stand by my decision.
And if I'm in error, if Hristo is in error, if Mathman is in error or Citabria or RAM or Kieren or Jigster... and on...if you acknowledge that perhaps even YOU had some part of what turned out to be a mess... Why can't you be a bigger man about it? Ok - so maybe it WAS a huge gawdamn mess... Ok? Or a complete lack of competence... Face it - yer surrounded by morons Hang... I really don't know what to say at this point.
I certainly respect your enthusiasm Hang, but I'm dissapointed on your handling of this. I would think that you could find your way to *some* kind of perspective on it that would make people feel just a bit better about giving up their time to participate
in these things.
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OK, I gotta jump in here to clarify one little bitty thing <but you guys will probably just argue over this as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) >
(I didn't participate because my ISP has had the runs this week; it's dumping me pretty regular. And my computer has been locking up about 30 minutes into every AH session; I think I need new keyboard.)
But, I hung around and asked Kieren if I could help and he sent me to the A3 tower to watch the LW takeoff, monitoring for on time and a numbers count.
They all took off from 3, and NO ONE rolled before the word was given to take off. I counted 11 FW's and I counted them 2x before I reported. I reported 11 LW up/on time to Kieren and I also reported it ON THE COMMON ARENA CHANNEL.
If anyone was filming from T/O roll on, it should be on that. I know Kieren saw it cause he rogered me.
Minor point..but the call was made. You can argue more about it now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Secondly, I see no need for all the "heat" in here. No ACM fight, repeat, NO ACM FIGHT ever goes quite as planned, ROE not withstanding, EVEN IN RL WITH RL AIRPLANES.
Maybe the numbers got mixed up, maybe the ROE went to pot, maybe some guys were a bit too high or some broke high a bit early. Hey, S*it happens. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Chill. This was the 1st one...it was BOUND to be a Texas Goatrope! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This could be a really fun event. Obviously some things need to be worked on to make it go a bit smoother. This is how we learn, guys. This is how we think of ways to improve the "Rumble."
If everyone just gets mad and picks up their marbles and goes home, the "Rumble party" is over.
So let's just agree this was a bit of a goatrope on both sides, try to improve the operation and give it another shot. Yeah, looks like the LW won this won but obviously there were some factors that tarnish the trophy a little. We can do this better if we try.
After all, they play the Super Bowl every year...so "world champs" isn't a "forever" title. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Here's a suggestion for a different ROE. Might not work, but it's something to kick around.
1. Allies are Bish, LW are Rook but fight takes place in a Knight sector that has some factory or field or something to provide a little incentive to watch out when you go low. Could be some ticked off groundpounders looking for payback against BOTH sides. A bit of spice.
2. Opponents approach from opposite sides of the sector and rendezvous on a "referee" B-26 bomber holding on outside edge of sector, flying parallel to sector line. Referee in buff will count fighters and confirm alt below xxK as they maintain formation at max speed of b-26 ~200mph.
3. When both refs are happy with #'s, alt and position, one calls "fight is on". Both opponents immediately turn into square. They are approximately a 1/2 sector apart, at about 200 mph. Tactics are open now.
4. Winner is "last man standing". Anyone that leaves the sector is instantly DEAD, out of the fight. (This should force the fight away from the edges and help the two sides meet in the middle.) Dumps, Discos, Mud Dives, Collisions, Knight Ack kills are all tough peanuts. Dead is Dead. Last one flying wins.
Please don't let this degenerate into a mud-slinging match. There were problems with this first run. That's normal..it's a first time F*** UP; very common in military affairs! So....work on it. It's a good, fun idea.
Peace, my fellow virtual airmen!
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Well said Toad. <S>
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What?? Nash.. yer kiddin right??
Two bases because the system resets with less. Sheesh. It was our intent from jump street to hold the fight over our territory. Yes. Fuel strategey was involved.
As far as I can tell via hristo's film the ponys merged as one group. I see screenshots there where the entire allied group is visible.. not so with the LW group. Definitly; they planned for and executed a ROE busting 2 element merge. We most definitly did not. This horse is flogged to death.
And I'm surrounded by incompetence? Not so. those pony pilots walked into a trap.. and the refs HELPED EM SPRING IT. If there's anybody incompetent here; it's me. No one else. Those allied pilots did as I asked 'em to; every damn one of 'em. Far as I'm concerened; I let 'em down. I shoulda PLANNED for a screwed pooch and acted accordingly. Incompetent fool that I was; I believed the ROE would be implemented. I've already apologised to them Nash.. have you?
I'm parked on the side of the runway; callin off the planes t6o roll one at a time. You didn't see that?? You have any problem countin them as they went by?? At what point in time was I advised they had 11 and we had one to many? Nope.. I wasn't and Toads message did not come over in the clear. I did see a liftoff time.. but thats all.
Then I get up; and request final numbers.. since the final count from the LW never came over in the clear. The answer was?? And I did what?
Jaaaasuss.. the fight was porked.. but not by the allies.
Also feature me sittin inna cockpit; dealing with 5 guys hammering me on private for 'can I join; what do you want me to do??'; plus 11 more in flight gettin settled down. and the I hear 'observers' flying into the area.. I'm busy parsing out the wingies and briefing on RW and getting the section upped per our plan.
My job was NOT to hold yer hand Nash, it was to get my group formed ; at alt and verify numbers.. yers was to enforce ROE. The published ROE.
We brought the correct numbers to the fight; based on what you told me. They did not. We merged as a group; per the ROE; they did not.
And yer hoppin on my case.. I mismanaged this? I didn't do the job?? Yer right. I didn't. I screwed the pooch; and blew the ROE call. I also decided to cheat; what the hell; whats one more LW pilot anyway. And I also decided to hell with the ROE; lets toss in a free 4 plane element that won't have to merge with the main group.
Dammo.. I've takin far more flak on this than is justified. I should just punch out my signature smile and say; "Oh well; Hristo screwed us; the Ref's with good intentions but the wrong idea screwed the ROE cause it 'seemed like the thing ta do at the time'; but hey; no harm done; lets go play barbies in the sandbox tomorrow."
Ok; yer right. Ok; here goes:
Gee; I'm sorry guys.. you can come play again; but don't expect a fair fight from the opposition or a fair shake from the umps.. they got a diffrent rulebook; and it ain't the one we're playin by. When we lose; be sure to tell 'em all how much fun it was; and how we don't mind havin the ROE summarily tossed in the toejamter. After all; we're all great losers. Right?
Right????????
Happy?
Hang; out.
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-23-2000).]
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I officially decline participation in any event that brings exclusive axis vs Allied fights.
If I am part of an event it is to have fun not to see all I've seen tonight.
So dont count me in any possible rematch of this thing, or in anything that raises egos this way.
I am damned regretful I took part on this one, seeing all this. I thought we were there to fly,fight and have fun.
NOw I realize that the core of this thing was egos vs egos. And I hate such things.
I had the feeling that I really should stay clear of this one. Damned instinct rarely fails me. Maybe next time I let it say "no way". ANd I am sure that many many of the pilots involved today, both in LW and US side share my opinion.
Still I feel sorry fer Nath, Mathman and Kieren. Hard work done to see this kind of thanks...
Really discouraging... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
(Edit...make that Nath-Nash. DAMNITTTT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Not "Nath" dammit Ram! Nash.. NASH hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh well...whatever (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
4.36am here in spain right now...waiting for a download to end, so now I have a REASON (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry NASH! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(or was it nath? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))...
ok lets make it Na*h (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
"Happy?" - Hangtime
Uh yah... ok.. I'm happy. Just elated. Beside myself. Thanks.
Cheers.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Well, after reading this thread yall can be damn sure the ROE for The Ladder will see some definite re-writing ... especially for the 2 on 2 and 4 on 4.
Nice films btw, looked like a fun fight regardless of the ROE squabble.
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RAM..
Yer welcome.
I get bent once.. ONCE and stand up and holler when I see 10 of my guys get trashed inna rigged fight...
..and YOU wax sanctimonious horscrap in my direction.
Sheesh. Glad you had a ball. I'll send yah my Barbie collection to play with next time.
You ever see me hop in yer pile when yer backin up what you think is right?
Unreal. I agree.. this is way outta hand. My fault entirely. I should know better than to stand up and holler "Foul!"
Save me yer 'dissapointment'.. I don't give a rats ass.
Hang
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Ok, to verify Toad's comments:
Yes, we confirmed 11 LW. This was broadcast both in private to us (so we could confirm that number ourselves) and on the open channel. I can review my tape and verify *I think*. I remember the conversation well, and am 99% sure Toad said it both on open and private.
51's upped with 12 pilots. I closed the field and moved to the next base to watch the merge. One of the 51 pilots noted there were fewer LW, to which Hangtime replied "if they augered on takeoff, that is their problem". I was not a referee- I was there to be sure the arena ran the way it should. I reported my numbers, compared that with Toad's and the cons I visually verified myself. We were wondering what to do, but the consensus was to wait and see if the 51's pulled two out- which they did. However there was absolutely no way for us on the ground to see this from where we were (A14).
Would I do it the same way again? Absolutely. Toad and I could have pressed the issue, but that wasn't why we were there. We were there to look for latecomers jumping into the fray. We wanted to be sure you all launched before I closed the fields. We wanted to set the environment so you could run your show.
There were refs there, they had the same information we had. You CO's from opposing sides can count. The information we had was taken from the same buffer you all read. The fight was 10 vs. 10 when Nash said "locked". I personally then informed two more pilots they would have to wait until next time.
The fact is, it was screwed up from the start. Both sides let too many people up after they had agreed on a number, there is no denying it. Whatever transpires after that point in time is moot. No one won, no one lost. Move on, play it over or forget it.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
RAM..
Yer welcome.
I get bent once.. ONCE and stand up and holler when I see 10 of my guys get trashed inna rigged fight...
..and YOU wax sanctimonious horscrap in my direction.
Sheesh. Glad you had a ball. I'll send yah my Barbie collection to play with next time.
You ever see me hop in yer pile when yer backin up what you think is right?
Unreal. I agree.. this is way outta hand. My fault entirely. I should know better than to stand up and holler "Foul!"
Save me yer 'dissapointment'.. I don't give a rats ass.
Hang
I should not feel like I do when I read things like the one I just read from you.
Oh damn, screw it, get lost hang. If you dont give a rats bellybutton I dont know why do I have to care about it.
The sad thing is -I do-
Re-read ALL my posts and find out where do I "wax sanctimonious horscrap in your direction.". Maybe you'll find that I tried to save your face when I thought you were having a hot head bad moment.
But as I said screw it. as you said you dont mind what I say or do.
But remember this, sometimes when the hole world is wrong and you are right there are a lot of things to think about...especially your perception on "wrong" and "right"
Maybe you dont care about what do I think. But if you knew how did I felt when I read that then you'd change mind.
Oh well I'll play with your barbies instead. Maybe I am a stupid idiot who trustes the wrong people, who knows. So maybe I'd be better playing with barbies than feeling like i do now.
But why the hell do I post this here?...
Bah!....
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My 2c on this topic,
I didn't take part in that fight (and dont really care about the result of it either), but was online when Hristo came in and started to brag about how good LW is. The only thing I can say, it was the cheesiest and cheapest thing I have ever seen. I think from now on I'll take pride in not being part of LW outfit.
Regards,
mx22
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Kieren - yah, everything u stated I watched take place. There was also another discussion within' the reffs about this (me, math, verm, Az, etc.) The number we could verify was that there were 11v11. Now, it gets confusing because at some point there was 11v12(allies), though 2 allies rtb'd.. The 11 might have been witnessed in the middle of that.
When the number imbalance (ie 12 allied) was brought to Hang's attention via Vladd..er well heres the breakdown:
Vladd reports "12 ponies launched?" on allied country channel.
I minute later Kieren asks if all allied up. Hang replies "rgr".
Another minute later, Vladd tells Hang "I think the LW may only have 10 up"
Hang: "Vladd - if they lost 2 on crashes at tak-off, too bad"
Minute later, Vladd: "I think hristo may have called they would only go with 10"
I confirmed yes, the final numbers Hristo and Hang agreed to was 10v10.
<inter squad communication takes place>
8 minutes after Vladd points out the allied number discrepency, ammo and vladd report "~close to merge, vis dots".
Nme dots now in vis range.
Half a minute later Hang and CJ reverse, diving away from merge. Hangtime reports ~"CJ and I are rtb - Cita u have lead." This on *squad* channel
Half a minute later, initial 51s and 190's merge. Mathman calls FIGHT ON.
10 seconds after that, the rear pony makes it to the merge area.
15 seconds after that, the rear FW makes it to the merge area.
Hang - despite your... ah nevermind. Ya'll draw yer own conclusions about how poorly the 51's got slighted.
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Yep. There was a point after the merge when it was possible to see Hang's 51 heading back to base, so this might have made it look like 11 allies. I was already on the ground at that point. This was taken from badger's tapes. Anyone who wants badger's tapes, im sure he'd send them to you via email. Also from them i also counted 11 190's. Woulda been a great fight, but oh well.. these things happen. Can't wait for the re-match (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Hopefully it's 12 vs 12 that time.
CJ 99th Raging Rooks and 1st Allied Combined
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Nash..
Yer right.. I'm outta line. I blew it.. shoulda called for a busted merge and a restart what with the pilot count confusion and the two group merge developing. An ROE brief among the refs at that point would ahve cleared it up before it turned into a goat rope. Sorry man... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
All of you guys; Kieren; Math, Toad, Az, Cavey.. thanks for tryin to help.. and I'm sorry fer my diatribes. Made my first post before watchin the films and Hristo's gloat sent me over the edge after watchin those boys get chopped up like that. My fault.. so sorry.
Anyhow.. hope u guys get a refly scheduled with Toads ROE. That looks like it'll work just dandy. Tho I think you may have some tuff road to cover gettin hristo to go for it.. prepare fer the paris peace talks all over again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Citabria; Thunder; Ammo; PC; CJ; Wilbus; Skyman; Maniac; Camel; Jigster... thanks men. yah done good.
Salute 1st/AH Allied !
Hang
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Hey, it was FUBAR. Pretty normal for a dress rehersal.
This was the FIRST one. Don't give up on the concept...although maybe this "I got the biggest johnson" stuff oughta go into a drawer for a while.
I would still like to see some 8 v 8 or 12 v 12 (Multiples of Flights (sections for you Navy pukes) of 4.
Still think these rumbles could be fun.
Let's do some ROE work from what we've learned and maybe try something less charged with machismo. Maybe VVS/LW or IJN/USN or USAAF, RAF/LW.
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Let me make one thing clear here:
I was never aware we had 11 planes instead of 10, until I watched the film after the fight.
If I found out about MooseEAF being 11th and not 10th, I guarentee you I would told Udie to kick him out.
If that wouldn't work I would announce it to Nash and referees and cancel the flight.
To all you guys blaming me I knew about MooseEAF being 11th man, you are the ones to be called lower than cat scum.
You know that I would not let that happen. However, by stating otherwise you show your lack of dignity.
If you really think Luftwaffe won because of MooseEAF flying for them, go on. I have nothing more to add here, you know that that wasn't the reason.
This can be confirmed by reading our comunications during the flight.
- I check icons on both groups
- icons in forward group were very close and over each other - no way to make an accurate count of planes (counting dots at that range ? hmmm)
- still, I notice MooseEAF icon
- not remembering I invited him to squad, I tell him that he is not part of our squad
- then I look at roster and what I see ? MooseEAF IS part of our squad, with same squad name and flying in our formation
- still confused, I type "oops, sorry" to MooseEAF
- now I get confused to the point I really wasn't sure if I invited him or not; blame it on anything you want, but I really did not know it at that point
- Udie offered me to kick him out
- I replied NO, because I was still under impression he was the 10th man, not 11th (therefore response "we need him to even the numbers")
- the rest of my channel 4 comments confirm this: I was actually pissed to have MooseEAF as 10th man, assuming it would be just 1 dead 190 once the fight starts
Now, why would I risk such thig of losing this fight just by having 11th man ? And that man being a total nwbie, not helping us at all ?
Do you really think I planned to win this fight by bringing in a total newbie (MooseEAF), guy I never heard of before ?
Sorry, but blaming me that I deliberately busted RoE with this 11th man is dirty.
You better ask yourself of the unbelieveable coincidence. A newbie who makes his own squad with exact name as our, flying close inside our formation, but failing to achieve nothing in te fight but dying among the first. Conspiracy ?
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Do you all really have an life besides AH?
All i can say is that i sucked in the duel...
I got completly confused by the 2 groups of FWs and did not know if i should go after the first group wich was low, or the rear group that was high.
I am sure the results will look different in the next duel so dont gloat to much luftwobblies...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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mx22, after reading against who we actually flew, all I can say I am sorry I did not brag even more. It was ment as teasing the ever so loud Allied contingent, after a fair fight. But now it is much more. We beat someone much more dangerous there.
From RoE wars, sneaky tricks like merge diving, spying, ack hugging and even possible sabotage, some P 51 types proved their known reputation.
Luftwaffe pilots, you have done incredibly well.
Live and learn, as Citabria said.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Oh and for the refight i vote Hangtime as a Referee as he's so easily bashing awasy on the Referees ..
Man you have no idea on how hard that jobs is.
maybe you want to get some hands on experience...
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"From RoE wars, sneaky tricks like merge diving, spying, ack hugging and even possible sabotage, some P 51 types proved their known reputation."
Hristo, where u molested as an child by an P51D pilot or something?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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MAN, too bad that i missed this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif).
But Folks please calm down, this is jst a Game. c'mon let's all be friends together (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Maik
<JG54 Grünherz>
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Originally posted by Maniac:
"From RoE wars, sneaky tricks like merge diving, spying, ack hugging and even possible sabotage, some P 51 types proved their known reputation."
Hristo, where u molested as an child by an P51D pilot or something?
OK, Runstang, here you go.
RoE wars - on both 1 vs 1 (Hangtime vs Hristo) and The Rumble, RoE was made up by Allies (Hang, to be accurate); He was the one whpo aggressively promoted his own rules and jumped at ideas give by opponents. Paris peace talks ?! You should ask Hang to give you a lesson or two in negotating.
Luftwaffe side had just had to agree to RoE on both fights, not to be called sissies. Of course, when Luftwaffe suggested the RoE, it was turned down as biased by regular Allied supporters on this board (Toad, you there ?);
Allied side won both RoE wars in those fights;
Luftwaffe had to cope with RoE that clearly favored opposing side.
Sneaky merge diving - I did not mention that too much before; however, when Hang called me lower than cat crap, I let go too;
In no WB ladder duel have I met merge diving tactic;
He made the 10k merge rules - I trusted him, but he obviously left a hole in them, so he could dive to the merge; dirty trick, in my book.
Lesson learned: never trust a Pony pilot.
Spying - their flight leader offered to wing with me few days ago and switched from Bishes to Knights; not much he could see, but not usual too.
Ack hugging - look at the last P 51 flying.
Sabotage - given all what I mentioned here, I tend to believe MoseEAF and his own Luftwaffe were not there by coincidence.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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LoL!
Conspiracy!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Oh btw, your excuse for not dueling me yesterday was something about all i do is run, you better check the score pages for the "kills per time"...
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Sure is, unil we get the Dora to fight your Runstang.
But don't switch then, Maniac. Keep flying the Pony in those dark days (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Stoickov kills per time : Rank 147
Maniac kills per time : Rank 21
Is there something im missing in your runstang argument? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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RAM: Kills per time: Rank 289
Are you calling me a running guy? in a 190A5 or A8? lol.
Scores say only what one wants them to say, Maniac. So that is not a valid argument.
Hristo, I also agree that after watching WHO were the allied pilot force I think that we did an amazing work.
And I also agree that something smells REALLY bad in the eleventh guy matter. A newbie doesnt know to start squads, isnt it?...and why the hell did he start a "luftwaffe" squad IDENTICAL to ours?
take your own conclussions.
I have mine's
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Originally posted by Maniac:
Stoickov kills per time : Rank 147
Maniac kills per time : Rank 21
Is there something im missing in your runstang argument? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Yes, flying in squad where it is irrelevant who gets the kill. Setting up the kill is nice too, you know.
And I speak out of occassions we two met in the arena, Maniac.
Looking at your P 51 6 view and watching the distance slowly gaining on G-10 I flew then.
Yes, I remember all that running.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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hristo I was a walk on on the p51 side and ready to fly for either team.
you know I'm capable of flying either the 190 or the p51 and was cheerfully ready to do either as were most of the other pilots.
I was under the impression that this was a standard multiplane duel where there was no "group 1" or "group 2" or "B&Z flight" or fuel tactics or such nonsense. I was not a signed up player for the rumble. Hangtime no doubt regrets making me the flight leader since I had no incling of an idea in my head that the 190s were not at all interested in a clean merge or a fair fight.
in fact you personally were on my 6 after i and the others merged with the 7 190s. you never had to turn your plane to get there since your "b&z opportunist flight" group 1 stayed out of icon range till the group 2 merged with the mustangs.
you acuse me of having an agenda and call the mustangs cheaters when by your own film you convict yourself of the exact wrongs you acuse the mustangs of.
fact is by your own admission you were quite afraid the 190s were going to get clobbered so you used every tactic you could think of to ensure the fight was not a fair one.
I'm actually extremely surprised you were so against a frame 2 since the first was such a route.
we should have had no rules at all to give each side a fair chance to stack the deck in their own way.
the LW tactics were great but they were not what was outlined in the ROE at all.
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Looks like I picked the correct week to go on vacation.
These types of rumble thingies should have no more than 4 vs.4 imho. Simple is always better.
Cyas up!
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/rude.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 07-24-2000).]
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This pissing contest are getting out of hand...
RAM, I dont call _anyone_ an runner...
Hristo, I actually dont recall fighting you in the main arena... And secondly dont you think i set up kills?? lol! ask any knight who flys the on the same times as me(eouro friendly times) and see what he answers hehe..
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Citabria, here's how I saw things:
RoE was made to favor the Allied side:
15k merge and higher is clearly better for P 51. In case one gets in trouble, all it has to to is point nose down and get away.
4 fields instead of 2 ?!?! THIS ALONE suggests some hidden agenda. What was it I am not sure even now. Maybe fighting over your own territory, maybe fuel tactic and maybe.....more groups ! Ask Hangtime about this, he made the RoE.
Your P 51 gaggle was so long in our radar that clean merge would mean front P 51s getting out of icon range. In fact, it was just what I expected: high speed climb way past our formation and dragging the fight high. At this point "Fight's on" would be irrelevant, the rumble would be patient and conservative BnZ flying.
Once the group is in the air, it is very hard to change strategy. Nobody of our group knew what we were up against. Only that RoE favors your side and that you circle you own back airfield.
From this perspective, you are pissed it did now work out.
Splitting our flight in two groups was a valid tactic. We could also simulate one long group too, you know. Considering all the dirty play I saw, I can assume you did just that.
The pilot who made the RoE, but leaving holes to be exploited this time did not benefit. His reaction shows how he feels about it. Next time, no icons and Doras, please.
As for turning down a rematch offer....come on guys, be serious. Once The Rumble was over it was over. We all have real life, you know. We won the battle. Why should we give the ghosts another chance ?
AllI can say, no more trusting to P 51 pilots, no more their RoE, no more these fights until we get P 51s historicl opponnent.
IMO, this fight was won by superior pilot skill of Luftwaffe pilots. You had better plane that could negate this, but you failed.
Good luck next time.
Sorry if I sound offensive, but some of you have really pissed me off by your inability to take defeat.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Exile:
Well, after reading this thread yall can be damn sure the ROE for The Ladder will see some definite re-writing ... especially for the 2 on 2 and 4 on 4.
Jeez louise....just keep it simple. Define a merge as being completed when the first two planes pass each other. Leave it up to the different sides to decide how they want to handle the situation once the merge is complete. Individual pilot skill can be overcome by good wingman strategy. Do they gangbang the lead pilot and hope to kill it before his buddy can join the fray or do they blow through to engage the trailer.
Leave some strategy in it and let the pilots sort it out like they had to in RL. Jeeez...the 33rd used to do tons of these squad vs squad battles and there was NEVER this kind of controversey cause we kept it simple. Remember those fites against the Shills and ARM, Crash and Jig? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now those were fun!
-Ding
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Originally posted by RAM:
Oh damn, screw it, get lost hang. If you dont give a rats bellybutton I dont know why do I have to care about it.
OK Guys! Enough!
This has turned personal and it doesnt belong on the boards. We're no longer talking about the fite..Pyro or HT...can ya lock this thread?
RAM,Hristo and Hang....take it outside.
-Ding
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by Maniac:
RAM, I dont call _anyone_ an runner...
lol Maniac, never intended to say that, it was a tongue in cheek comment to make you understand that if I?m not a runner with that score, then that you have a better score doesnt mean you -ARENT- a runner (of course I dont say you run I say that the way to proof you are or not a running runstang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) isnt score)
Hope it is more clear now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW I know you and you are a hell of good p51 pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo:
mx22, after reading against who we actually flew, all I can say I am sorry I did not brag even more. It was ment as teasing the ever so loud Allied contingent, after a fair fight.
Actually Hristo, it is the LW contingent I hear braggin the most in the MA and you are one of the loudest. If there ever was a poor winner, you were displaying it yesterday. And its poor taste to criticize MooseEAF's ability in a public forum like this. He may not have as much of an effect on the final outcome as you state but there is no way for an ally to know which 190 is being manned by whom...each enemy plane is a potential threat.
As far as Maniac's comment that he was confused by two groups, I can understand that. Fact of the matter tho is that both groups were at 15K until the refs called fights on. Look at the film that was posted earlier in this thread. It was filmed by Hristo in the trailing group and they were at 15K.
-Ding
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Maniac, I do recall our fights few months ago. Remember that little chase across the sector on the deck back in beta map. In fact, I think you were the most coldblooded runner outthere. What else could be said about a guy who watches you follow him on the deck at 450 yards distance ?
With distance increasing very slowly ...501...502...503...504..., and only at 600 yards I made fatal hits. Talk about runner. That's how remember you. And it happened more than once. Check stats of earlier tours, back when I used old handle. We surely met (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maniac, being part of JG54 is a new experience for me. Score is not important. Teamwork and wingman tractic are esential.
If a wingman is lost, we RTB as soon as posible, no score hunting. If a wingie is damaged, he is escorted back home, again no score hunting.
If the formation is RTBing, available squaddie takes off to escort the RTB group. And lands with them. Kill per time ? No, thanks.
Such things do not benefit kill per time ratio, but are valuable for squad efficiency and cohesion.
One step further: Sometimes it is much easier to lonewulf than be a part of the squad (especially if you hunt scores). Look at top P51 K/D pilot's stats (you know who I am talking about). He has a science fiction K/D and impressive gunnery and kill per time record.
But would you like him to be your wingman ?
------------------
Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Congrats LW pilots. Hard to tell but sounds like you handed it to them.
These ROE things sound like hearding cats.
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Originally posted by Dingy:
Actually Hristo, it is the LW contingent I hear braggin the most in the MA and you are one of the loudest.
And I a damn proud of it. Sorry if we don't agree on that.
If there ever was a poor winner, you were displaying it yesterday. [/b]
Just a part of the fight. However, I can say it was ment as a joke. But now I don't care how they took it. Let them know they lost.
And its poor taste to criticize MooseEAF's ability in a public forum like this. He may not have as much of an effect on the final outcome as you state but there is no way for an ally to know which 190 is being manned by whom...each enemy plane is a potential threat.
[/b]
It is a poor taste. Almost as close as blaming the same guy for the outcome.
This was my mistake. How much though, I am not sure now. Who knows who the guy actually was. P 51 types are sneaky, you know. They tend to accuse opposition of taking up with 12 planes while they took off with 12 themselves. MooseEAF ? I really don't know now.
As far as Maniac's comment that he was confused by two groups, I can understand that.
[/b]
We all can. It was ment to function that way.
Thanks for participating Dingy, glad to had you fly with us.
Luftwaffe types, brag on. You deserved it.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hristo ten 190 pilots and ten 51 pilots don't represent the whole LW and Allied airforces out of 1000+ ppl. This was one small engagement between Americans and Germanys (Finns too!!) squads. Lets not talk about running either I have a nice film clip of you running from my hog when you had alt advantage only to be out maneuvered by my Hog and then shot down when you tried to run again. Try to show some character and don't gloat as such so much, did you ever think that this may be the main reason so many JG ppl have defected to other squads lately. The 190 squad did well and they should be <S> for that but there will be many more squad duels in the future. Your just making AH ugly and political. Ah is for fun and entertainment lets keep it that way please.
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Originally posted by Torque:
did you ever think that this may be the main reason so many JG ppl have defected to other squads lately.
You surely are talking about JG2. I left for a "personal" thing with one of my exsquaddies and when I saw that the reaction that his action had into JG2 was not the one I expected. I wont tell further than that.
AFAIK Rip lefr JG2 because he wanted to make a dream come true, to be a VMF squad CO. Saw followed him because he loved P51 over LW iron, and Bee followed Saw because they are like lovers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) where one goes there goes the other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (J/K <S!> both)
The rest of the people fleeing JG2 either went to JG54 under Hristo's Command, Rip's squad, or other's . Many of them used to fly in Spitfires, hogs and P51s anyway, so there was a time when JG2 was only LW in the name, because only the people now in JG54, me,Jochen,Swager and a couple of people more were flying german iron.
When I left JG2 I expected some kind of "revolution" happening sooner or later. BUt for sure not that drastic.
Anyway this post was intended to make clear that,AFAIK, the reasons for JG2's breaking out in many squads including itself, have nothing to do with this matter.
At least is what I think after I've talked with a lot of ex-JG2 people last weeks.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Moose of the European Air Force is one of my longest time online-sim friends from EAW. I can guarantee he was not part of any "conspiracy".
While we logged into the SEA, MooseEAF was a member of his own squad. I told him to disband it and contact you, Hristo, to get invited. In between all the fuzz he must have misunderstood and formed his one man Luftwaffe. I'm sorry that it happened.
While Moose hasn't been flying AH for very long, I will fly on his wing any time.
Like it has been said here many times, this duel was first of a kind in AH, but hopefully not the last. I'm sure we'll be wiser when the next duel is played and these kinds of clear errors can be avoided.
I'll be happy to take part in the next duel!
Salute to all the pilots who attended, and especially to the arranging parties!
<S!>
Camo
------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Well, I debated somewhat with myself as to whether to post to this sad thread or not, but in the end decided since I was one of the participants flying for hangtime's 51 squad, I had more right than some here who have poured gasoline on the funeral pyre.
I had no idea that this event was going to be filled with so much animosity or expectation that the survival of humanity would depend upon its outcome. Besides being somewhere past 50, I have a very stressful day job and I enjoy WB, AH and hopefully WWIIOL for purely the game entertainment value and community camaraderie, they have usually offered me in the past for general relaxation.
I logged onto the SEA on Sunday without any pre-knowledge of this intense rivalry and debate between the two factions, as I try to avoid those kind of BBS threads. I simply thought it was a regular fun type event and naively asked if there were any openings for a walk-on. Hangtime kindly spoke up and asked if I could fly a 51 and I jokingly replied I'd fly a Cessna if he wanted me to. Ironically, I'm usually an LW guy in scenarios or events as a member of vadr's III/JG2 on AH, as well as his JG2 squad (previously JG27) on WB. Heck, after accepting hangtime's invitation, I even offered to switch to 190's if it appeared there would be a balance problem, as it was simply about having fun for me with a great bunch of comrades and not proving who's better. By the way hangtime, thank you very much for permitting me to join with no prior event preparation, practice, event briefings or a chance to learn the ad hoc squad members. I had no idea there was as much competitive rivalry at stake, so it was very gracious of you to allow this mediocre old 190 warrior with minimal time on type, to participate and take up a valuable P51 slot that could have been filled by a more experienced squad affiliated P51 driver. <Salute>
From my point of view, this event was "pooched" before the merge. We took off sequentially to avoid FPS problems with everyone on the runway, which consumed a lot of time. Hangtime, with so much else to organize and contend with, inadvertently took off with 25% fuel and no external tanks. We ended up circling and debating some of this issue for a bit, which was distracting. It then appeared the numbers looked off in favor of the allies, so Hangtime and CJ (my wingman) did a 180 and in real time, turned command over to citabria while they exited the formation leaving me to try and find "thunder", my newly assigned wingy. You know something people, hangtime could of asked a P51 "rookie" like me to RTB and stayed in the action himself, but he didn't. Again, very gracious so as to not disappoint my enjoyment of the event.
I'm now looking around for "thunder" and once found, start a turn back to him, only to discover the LW full tilt in-bound on us at full E with maximum speed. I then turned into them at very low speed and very low E, only to discover I was actually a bit too high on the 15k boundary. I started to drop down 800-1200 feet when it is very clear that many of the 190's were actually above me and we haven't even completely merged all the way though yet. So, I simply flew straight through the higher and lower 190's with guns cold and come upon the last two trailers who were in a climb up and away from me after a 51 ( jigster I think). I went up into a high Yo Yo (right) on the 4 clock of one of them when I noticed his 190 wingman abandon him, choosing to continue to climb out by himself, as my target broke into somewhat of a split-s maneuver and headed for the deck. Since he was alone, as was I (lost my wingy thunder...never really got onto his wing in first place), we ended up with a one on one engagement diving and twisting. I chased him alone downward 1vs1 towards the deck where I got a fortunate six shot kill. I then began a long time consuming climb back to fighting altitude and worked my way back to the general mass of 190's and P51's. I should have used more time to get to proper altitude, but I noticed that my fellow P51 drivers were taking a beating, so I chose to dive into the furball at equal or slightly lower altitude. As a result, I ended up with a few too many 190's on my six and got real slow, low and in a dirty flight configuration. After watching hristo's film (the 190 who nailed me....<Salute> ) and seeing his stay high out of the fray style while watching for weaker low targets of opportunity, to then swoop in at very high speed, I now better understand how I died. It was really interesting to see one's own death from the attacker's camera film and notice the effects of Internet lag and range differences as perceived by individual front ends. When I saw him diving into me from the rear, I was sure I was able to turn easily and avoid his snapshot, but when I see my camera film then look at his film of the same shot, it looked from his viewpoint that I had virtually turned in front of him. The high speed pass like this with all kinds of E creates a strange Internet effect on distances and views and is a good point that trainers need to teach the younger players about, in learning how to read, understand and plan for that eventuality.
Bottom line, IMHO the 51's never really got into a cohesive formation, focused and up to speed to have a good and fair fight. The Duke of Wellington once said that the battle is won in the preparation and positioning beforehand and not in the actual execution. This event was a good example of that. The long travel and discussion time preparing for the engagement as viewed in hristo's film compared to my 51 film, shows a lot of disparity of preparedness in getting positioned at maximum E with top speed for the upcoming fight. This is not an excuse, but rather an observation. The height disparity clearly is the result of many of the 190's beginning a climb out using this maximum speed and E as soon as the "fight's ON" was called by someone. This simply exacerbated the already lower E and speed state of the still chaotic and organizing 51 flight. In fairness, the event should have been restarted and ROE better understood by everyone. In order to maintain the fun and remove the negative competitiveness aspect of this event, there should have also been an agreement to switch 190/51 rides by both sides and fly each other's planes as a second frame. I emailed nash my film, so I will let him comment on any inaccuracies he feels I may have in my conclusions, as seen from my point of view.
On a personal note, I was very disappointed to read the arrogance, gloating, bitterness, anger and personal attacks by many people in this thread, of whom in the past I have had great respect. It is particularly sad to see many remarks calling others cowards and even worse. One is supposed to demonstrate humility and graciousness in victory as well as defeat, which is a sign of true leadership and maturity. With all due respect hristo, this event didn't really demonstrate "the superior pilot skill of Luftwaffe pilots", but rather superior preparedness in entering this one singular engagement. You are perhaps one of the best pilots I have ever encountered on-line in any sim and need no lessons in virtual aerial combat, however, you could use some mentoring in effective personal communication, that would round out your tremendous leadership potential.
I would like to thank nash, kieren and the others who acted as refs and CM's for this event. Without their gracious giving of personal time away from family or simply selfishly flying for their own enjoyment, none of us would be able to participate in any of these special events. <Salute>
Given the general tone of the communities, both here and on AGW, I said to my wife last night that after 4 years of virtual on-line flying that I think it's time to call it a day. It's supposed to be a game of sharing some good fun with great people. For now, it has deteriorated into a generally unhealthy environment and I'm actually ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed for all of us for being part of this. If any of you don't feel the same way, than you need some personal pause and reflection on what has happened here with this situation.
A sad way to end my virtual on-line career, but I think it's time to permanently cancel both WB and AH memberships. I have a pretty little C172 sitting in a hanger just crying for more real flight time, so I think perhaps I'll pay more attention to her.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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"I emailed nash my film, so I will let him comment on any inaccuracies he feels I may have in my conclusions, as seen from my point of view." - Badger
Nope - what you describe represents what what happened from my perspective too. I feel compelled to comment further on how this thing is affecting everyone... and will probably do so once I can get a bit of time. As it is I only have time for this little note. You were indeed a gentleman in there Badger.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Hey, it was FUBAR. Pretty normal for a dress rehersal.
This was the FIRST one. Don't give up on the concept...although maybe this "I got the biggest johnson" stuff oughta go into a drawer for a while.
I would still like to see some 8 v 8 or 12 v 12 (Multiples of Flights (sections for you Navy pukes) of 4.
Still think these rumbles could be fun.
Let's do some ROE work from what we've learned and maybe try something less charged with machismo. Maybe VVS/LW or IJN/USN or USAAF, RAF/LW.
Bingo, a response I like. I'm with Toad on this!
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I'm not pissed hristo.
btw do you remember a while back when I had J/s malfunction and I often rode along on your 190 wing exploits? was very fun and interesting to watch.
the night I asked if you wanted to wing together I had killed you twice in a p38 while you were in a 190a8. I asked if you wanted to wing up since you were facing 15 bishops with 4 knits and 30 rooks on. and we went and had a great time winging and killing. I'm sad you think that I had any motive other than having a good time. you comented on the rumble and I said I'd fly 190s if you needed one then I mentioned that it would be a better rumble if it were p47s vs 190s. so my friend I'm sorry you think I had such preconcieved notions but I have no such forsight or vision to think of such things. but truth is I fly all AH aircraft as best I can for the fun of it.
I knew what was coming when I launched in a p51 after easily downing what I think to be the best 51 pilots in practice duels vs 190a5 in the ta. but I wanted the challenge and it was indeed a challenge which I was lucky to not get shot down in the first 30 seconds when a 190 saddled me up and turned me in the wrong direction blew my flaps off and half my elevator. I only had one offensive moment on snefens and this was way after the other 51s were shot down. but he easily spun out of the way after taking some 50cal. other than that and a couple attempts to clear my smoking wingman I was defensive the entire time. the 190s were very very good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
you outmaneuvered, had better tactics and coordination than the p51s and worked together wonderfully. the p51s accepted the turn and burn contest with your 190s and died a fiery death for it.
just know that us dumb allies were not even smart enough to be tricky. we thought we would charge in like john wayne and say "I'm not gonna hit ya, the hell I'm not" but the LW overestimated the stangs and the stangs underestemated the LW.
I want to see more of these squad duels.
but they definitely need to be simplified.
the extraordinary flying of the LW is tarnished by the semantics and lawyerisms of the ROE. of the gloating by the LW and the dificulties faced by the p51s in downing the dancing 190s.
so sharp was the contrast of attitude in the snapshot I played after the rumble debacle. it was night and day.
it was a refreshing experience after the taunts and bad blood in the rumble.
it was night and day/heaven and hell in terms of fun factor.
the IJN lost both times but the teams switched sides after the first frame to take turns on both sides of the yamamoto mission.
in essence the contrast was similar to that of the anger filled nature of competition in the main arena to that of the casual and friendly atmosphere of the free for all in the TA.
weve had our clashes in the past when our egos get bruised but I hope we see through it as we ussually do and not take it as anything more than kids on the palyground fighting over the swings.
<S> to you guys in the LW and the Allies.
lets learn from our success and defeat and our mistakes to make the next rumble be it a slaughter or not a rumble that is enjoyed by all for what it is.
kids in the playground.
>
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Greetings fellow flight sim friends !
Well..i seem to caused a lot of problems.
Let me explain a few things (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I read about the snapshot events and was not aware it was for only 10x10.
I flew before the match and was told to dismantle my squad name ( European Air Force )
I saw the other Axis pilots used the "Luftwaffe" sign and i thought i had to use that too, so i did.
When we waited at the airstrip before taking off ( about 10-15 minutes ) i did not hear anything i could not fly at all.
When we were in formation i saw a few comments on my "luftwaffe" sign.
I was told not to use it, and i replied with : Rgr.
I was told a had to be invited for the "luftwaffe" sqn.
So this is just a misunderstanding guys, excuse me for the hassle.
I am not a newbie with flightsims, but i am not defending myself here hehe....
But...considering all the flaming in this topic,, i dont think i would join a new luftwaffe vs yanks fight soon (if i was allowed to join it hehe)
Really...i had a blast...and why is it a problem when one squad has 1 plane more?
A arena with passwords would be the solution maybe ??
I know a good password: moose
sorry..could not resist
One more thing: Is there a price at my head now ??
* Moose is running for his life
Moose_EAF322
322 Squadron Leader
European Air Force
www.europeanaf.org (http://www.europeanaf.org)
moose@alcesalces.nl.com
icq: 60141549
I fly bishop country , evening at European time ( I live in Holland)
So, look for me and try to kill me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Moose (edited 07-24-2000).]
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It's supposed to be a game of sharing some good fun with great people. For now, it has deteriorated into a generally unhealthy environment and I'm actually ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed for all of us for being part of this.
<S> Badger, you are one of the few that really "get it".
I hope that everyone in the AH community uses this debacle' of a thread to learn how NOT to act toward their fellow community brothers.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
OK, Runstang, here you go.
Luftwaffe side had just had to agree to RoE on both fights, not to be called sissies. Of course, when Luftwaffe suggested the RoE, it was turned down as biased by regular Allied supporters on this board (Toad, you there ?);
Yes, Hristo, I am here. I am watching your incredible arrogance split this pilot group even further apart. WTG, chief!
In this first ever "Rumble" with all it's problems your guys won what appears to be a disputed victory. How will you do next week?
Oh, sorry, the well is almost so poisoned now that now one will drink from it, isn't it?
As for ROE, if you review the thread you'll find my sole objection was over the "no-icon" feature. Here, let me refresh everyone's memory:
*********************
quote: posted 07-06-2000 11:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hristo:
Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?
In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, Hristo, I didn't. I flew iconless in AH a couple of times. I flew the WB HA quite a bit whenever there was other people in there.
IMHO, AH is presently less capabable of a usable iconless environment than WB was when I played that. In fact, to me, it it SO unlike RL that you won't find me there again until it improves.
It certainly adds tension and it adds uncertainty and doubt...but mimic RL? Hardly.
While YOU may think this is "realistic", I don't think it's even close. Check Jedi's remarks above..there's another guy that flies for a living. He's absolutely right about camo paint.
This present environment doesn't mimic RL as much as it shows the problems that current technology has in trying to mimic RL.
I just spent the past few days flying around with other WW2 aircraft at an airshow. Because of the airshow rules, I once again could look at other aircraft at exactly KNOWN distances in flight.
So far, I've spent about two years of my life in the air. I spent a lot of that time looking out for other aircraft.
Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?
******************************
You never did tell us all your flying experience, Hristo.
Jedi, a military pilot weighed in and agreed with the need for icons.
Let's get Andy Bush, another military pilot to speak out...oops, he already has...he thinks we need icons.
Face it, the pixel-size limitations imposed by a computer monitor and a need to switch views instead of glancing with your eyes in no way represent what you see in RL.
Like I said, I've been a professional pilot since 1974, with civilian, military and airline experience.
Tossing all the airline and military experience aside for the moment,I own and operate an open-cockpit WW2 trainer. I operate my brother's Vultee BT-13 WW2 trainer with cockpit/canopy configuration similar to many WW2 fighters.
I've flown both of these aircraft in formation with other WW2 aircraft; I've flown them in mock dogfights with other WW2 aircraft. I've flown them in airshows with LOTS of other WW2 fighter and bomber aircraft around me over known geographic check points so I knew their range as we maintained spacing to keep an aircraft in front of the crowd at all times.
...and IMHO (shared by many RL pilots that fly these games and this board), acm game visual technology on PC computers is not yet anywhere near a RL experience in terms of visual detail, judging closure rates and judging aspect, among other things.
It is seriously lacking.
Now YOU have so far not shared how you came to your conclusions that current "no icon" is "as real as it gets."
I'll suggest that "no icons" is much more an increase in "difficulty level" here than any increase in realism. Like when you "up" the skill level in another type of game and the AI enemies shoot faster and more accurately.
As I said: Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?
NOTE TO ALL: None of the above should be taken to mean that I am satisfied with our current icon setup. I think there are many ways to improve them and make them LESS intrusive. I've posted on this in the various topics dealing with icons and I'm not going to repeat all of that. This is long enough, isn't it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-24-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Great post Badger, hopefully some people will read it more than once.
I did not fly all weekend, and after reading this thread, glad I did not.
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JG 2's current cannon magnet
Milo
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Moose (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
no problems, bud (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now you explain it it is okay, all was a misunderstanding and ended in a big mess but there is no problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for participating, I'll see you over bishop skies and if you still are with that A5 I'll be proud to wing with you and Camo.
To be truth I suspected that you were an "infiltrator" for a moment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) as I dont know you from MA...but hey! toejam happens and noone blames you about what happened (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-----------------------------------
Bagder:
<S!> you feel just like I do. And "someone" has broken a lot of things with me because I posted that I felt really near to how you do. I hope he doesnt flame you the way I was flamed by him.(I'm sure he wont...but if you were in LW side instead in allied, then maybe the story would be a different one).
BTW, Bagder,please dont stop flying AH. It is a nonsense to be disgusted at all with AH because this lamentable event. Just keep on flying in MA with Vadr (who is a class act) and get fun with it. Be sure to assist to well designed scenarios, choose them reading the Special event forum...and have fun.
But dont go...you'll be sorely missed...
Anyway, if there is a class act here that is you. <S!> Bagder...hope to see you (and Mrs Bagder) in AH's skies soon again.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-24-2000).]
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guys.
We should remember that this whole thing came about by Hangtime responding to someones(hristos?) arrogant claim that LW pilots were supperior.
A notion concieved in arrogance is unlikly to evolve to grace.
The subsequent behavior of the LW leader is not supprising to me. It is unfortunate but not supprising.
ROE. Anytime you set up an situation where both sides must engage you have moved to la la land as far as pilot skill goes.
Certainly the best P51 pilots and the best LW pilots must have highly evolved engagment reasoning. Its the pony WATCHING the merge that I worry about.
If one countries pilots were inatly supperior(nonsence) you could only prove it with a much more open kind of engagment, let the battle range far and wide, first side to 200% of starting count as kills wins. Battle starts on the ground at fields 50 miles appart. If the battle can turn into a route because of 10seconds indecision on one side or by the referees then it will always flip flop back and forth. A more protracted battle will probably end up in a near dead heat. But that is realisic anyway.
Badger. That was a cool post.
>[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Boy Milo, you said it!
I was thinking that it would be nice to fly in something like this, but damn!
Some of you people need to check your ego in at the coat room before ya step into AH.
WOW! I have seen two 5 year olds fighting over a Tonka truck that acted more mature.
I was thinking of organizing a Spit V/Me109 F-4/G-2 get together. JG2 and 308. But damn! I like those guys from 308. Wouldn't want it to turn out like this.
And please keep JG2 out of this. Seems like I/JG2 had one pilot flying for the LW and he is one of the most humbling pilots I know to fly with.
This thing had disaster written all over it from the very beginning! Two super egos head butting in a simualted world.
How some people can take a wonderful WWII Flight Simulation and turn it into their own private battleground is beyond me.
Yes, you may be thinking, "Well Swager, that is why I am a better pilot, because I have more passion in this sim than you." Well if having more passion for the game means I have to blindly argue like you mellonheads, then you can have it!
Somethings never cease to amaze me!
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
GeschwaderKommodore I/JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Never in the field of human conflict was so much disgrace brought to so many by so few.
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Swager, Spit V vs. 109F-4 sounds like fun. Let me know when you want to do it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I was thinking of organizing a Spit V/Me109 F-4/G-2 get together. JG2 and 308. But damn! I like those guys from 308.
Wouldn't want it to turn out like this.
Hey Swager, no worries. I'm sure that we and JG2 would be able to keep it a friendly competition. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF
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Originally posted by funked:
Never in the field of human conflict was so much disgrace brought to so many by so few.
Hehehehe, got a good chuckle out of that this morning..thanks!
The only thing I can think of is...
OH, THE HUMANITY
Fighter pilot egos are like amazinhunks, everyone has one, some are bigger than others...
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Originally posted by Dingy:
Jeez louise....just keep it simple. Define a merge as being completed when the first two planes pass each other. Leave it up to the different sides to decide how they want to handle the situation once the merge is complete. Individual pilot skill can be overcome by good wingman strategy. Do they gangbang the lead pilot and hope to kill it before his buddy can join the fray or do they blow through to engage the trailer.
Leave some strategy in it and let the pilots sort it out like they had to in RL. Jeeez...the 33rd used to do tons of these squad vs squad battles and there was NEVER this kind of controversey cause we kept it simple. Remember those fites against the Shills and ARM, Crash and Jig? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now those were fun!
-Ding
When I say "re-write", I'm meaning more of a refining process than an actual new ROE. A few very precise points that in no way could every be misunderstood. And yes I agree there should always be room left for individual and group strategy ... hell that's half the battle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Exile:
When I say "re-write", I'm meaning more of a refining process than an actual new ROE. A few very precise points that in no way could every be misunderstood. And yes I agree there should always be room left for individual and group strategy ... hell that's half the battle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Here's a quote from Hangtime in the Hang vs Hristo thread in regards to why Hang would climb to 13k , then dive down to the agreed-upon 10k merge:
"You'll note that the wording was specific.. 10k "AT" merge. Which we did. We were both level and at 10k when we did merge; every time. Neither a/c had any signifivant alt edge at the merge.
\
To summarize, for every rule, there is always someone to exploit the loop holes left in the wording.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by Dingy:
Leave some strategy in it and let the pilots sort it out like they had to in RL. Jeeez...the 33rd used to do tons of these squad vs squad battles and there was NEVER this kind of controversey cause we kept it simple. Remember those fites against the Shills and ARM, Crash and Jig? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now those were fun!
-Ding
There was a major difference however. We wanted to have a good time and didn't have anything to prove.
Shills always made those cracks in good fun, as did we. No one was afraid of a rematch either...
Nobody claimed "conspiracy! conspiracy!".
It's just pityful. I think how much this game could be if we had fights like that again.
And we ALWAYS got even at the cons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't think it was right for Hang to go off like that, but it IS understandable.
He set this up. He did nearly all the work besides the great help by Nash. We had alot of walkons on the allied side, and I was one of them. He made sure we all got up without augering, paired us up, and what not.
Then he doesn't get to compete in the event he set up. I'd be pretty pissed off myself.
And Hristo's craptastic attitude about winning helps about as much as a 20mm cannon shell up the ass.
- Jig
---------
Squelch macros are cool!
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Yeah Jigster... that bears repeating. Hang deciding to pull himself out of a fight he engineered so that the walk-ons would be able to participate demonstrates some real character. A real show of class that was.
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A sad way to end my virtual on-line career, but I think it's time to permanently cancel both WB and AH memberships. I have a pretty little C172 sitting in a hanger just crying for more real flight time, so I think perhaps I'll pay more attention to her.
Dach comon now this involves 20 some odd ppl AH has 1000+ accounts. This does not reflect the whole community. Mr Newbie who started last week should he be denied the right of reading your eloquent post because of this incident The emotions and rivalry are the glory of the Sim, geeze what did those pilots returning really say after engagements like this one. Now with a more positive spin to the emotion aspect, AH will be the greatest SIM. Teething periods are always squeaky remember beta days. ROE gets tweaked out more things will be ok. War is HELL.
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ewps... cyclin' thru the back button on my browser got me a double post.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Moose, I appologize for “conspiracy” insinuations. Also, statements about you pilot skill were out of line, but right there we needed experienced sticks, not newbies or AH newcomers. Seems this all has been bad coincidence and it was my mistake not to recognize our number disparity.
Sorry about that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). My mistake.
We also had Wulgaru, Minus and Niteflyr who have been turned down while they tried to join LW team. It was simply too late for that, since we announced 10 vs 10 and Nash called for no more walkons. Sorry, but I missed you on the runway and only became aware when I saw you in our formation. The rest I already explained.
Toad, I don’t fly for living. I base my opinions on what I have read on WW2 air combat. So my experience is not even close to the real life pilot. But range finders ? Aiming aids ? IFF at 5 miles ? E state indicators ?
Right now a cannon Hog can BnZ from 5 miles distance, opening up at 1000 yards and hitting, due to all aiming aids. WW2 ? Nope.
As for arrogance ? By all means yes. I was arrogant from the start and of course I am now. Part of me was trolling, but in most part I believed in what I was saying. Just look at The Rumble intro. Those P 51 pinheads deserve all the Luftwaffe bragging. Maybe they wouldn’t gloat so much if we lost. Maybe they would. But they lost. And ghosts don’t brag (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). It is just part of the fight.
Not to be forgotten, opportunists have also made statements that just ask for this gloating. Rude ? Torque ? And Hangtime, to lesser extent. Go watch Rumble intro. Those guys need this and it is damn nice to be able to gloat about it. Where is now “tidbit of crappola”, “full of Crappolla Trophy”, "bunch of bull" whatever ? You need another RoE favoring your side ? You need LW flying 109E ? P 51s lost it. Luftwaffe won. And boy do I like to brag about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Still, I don’t take it so serious Hang seems to be taking it. Blame me for whatever you like, but bragging feels just great. You think some LW types are arrogant ? You are right. But not more than the arrogancy of P 51 opportunists. So the victory is even sweeter.
And yes, Rude, Torque and Hangtime, do not forget:
The best pilots are always Luftwaffe !
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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However, read my first post in this tread.
Immense skill and bravery ? Of course I was joking and trolling, but in no way I wanted to offend anyone. It was ment as fun post, and to tease Allies just a bit.
But then look at Hang's reply :
"Yer fulla horsecrap Hristo."
"LW.. you won nothing except my disgust. "
Well, since our little mergediver ticked me off, expect that my following posts contain less politeness and far more arrogance and gloating.
Still, my next posts contains more trolling and gloating. It was a direct response to Hang's post. Again, no offensive statements.
Hang replies :
"Scum. You get NO respect. Yer lower than cat crap."
Well, don't blame me for following posts.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Givin the fact that the AH P51D is such a pitifully anemic vertical performer its no wonder that the 190A-5s prevailed.
Hell, Id make the 190A-5 my ride of choice if Red, White and Blue didnt get in the way.
As for LW computer simulation enthusiasts being *the best*...well, no two ways to cut it, thats just plain horsehit.
Have a nice day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-24-2000).]
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Here is a training film for those LW pilots http://members.home.net/torqs/films/Histro.zip (http://members.home.net/torqs/films/Histro.zip)
Funny tho kill message said callsign was Enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Doh.....duel accounts hristo
and of course they are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/merge.jpg)
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Torque:
Here is a training film for those LW pilots .......
Great film of a terrific fight torque. <S>
Some awesome flying as usual my friend.....
I couldn't have made that last "wing sawing" deflection shot on my best day, even if I was 30 years younger....hehehe
Regards,
Badger (Dach)
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Originally posted by Torque:
Funny tho kill message said callsign was Enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Doh.....duel accounts hristo
and of course they are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hristo, Hristos, Enemy and Stoickov have 11 kills and were killed 6 times against torque.
Brag on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Good golly miss molly!
Salute Nash, Kieren, Math and Cave for taking your time to help out! I had alot of fun with this!
I originaly got involved with this over the good natured banter taking place in the Hang Hirsto fight. When the idea of a 10 v 10 was suggested, I jumped at the chance to fly with Hang and his boyz. Ive enjoyed the practice sessions, and discusions leading up to this, and I have NO hard feelings over this AT ALL! I also look forward to doing it again if the Allies will have me.
Ive lost no respect for anyone, and maybe gained some in this process. Like Hang getting a litte bent, shows his loyalty and leadership qualities.
Well enough from me, Salute all involved!
Hope to do it again!
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Badger:
While I agree with the points made in your post, I do hope you reconsider. As a longtime "lurker" and infrequent poster, I believe you are one of several "Voices of Reason" in the flightsim communities of WB and AH. These online communities would be diminished by your absence.
Torque is right (in this instance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) there are 1000+ folks in this sim - and the real heat generated in this thread comes from fewer than 10 people. But read through the thread, for every individual who's beating their chest or calling someone names, there's another trying to be thoughtful and reasonable.
Sometimes a break does one good - but I hope you stay around.
Like RL there's more good than bad, but like RL, the bad makes all the noise and gets all the press.
In any case, thanks for all of the thoughtful,reasonable posts - they have helped to reassure many of us that all of what I just said is true.
<S>
Elvis1
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Hristo how many were co-alt mergers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
For a low F4u to pursue a hi 109 well..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristo, Hristos, Enemy and Stoickov have 11 kills and were killed 6 times against torque.
I ran the callsigns what score board you on Hristo?maybe you had more callsigns? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
tour1 tor 6 hristo 1
tour2 tor 0 hristo 3
tour4 tor 0 hristo 1
seems you fell sort by one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Thx Bager btw new terrian doesn't do duel justice.That was old terrian and I was inside the canyon hristo was above. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hristo KPT 370 0.0009 tour2
hristo KPT 679 0.0009 tour1
torque KPT 4 0.0026 tour1
torque KPT 5 0.0034 tour2
But I don't judge a man by his score, judgement comes as you watch him dive into peril to help save your butt. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
of course they are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-25-2000).]
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My remarks are in no way directed at all ppl who fly LW Iron.I am just quoting hristo.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Toad, I don’t fly for living. I base my opinions on what I have read on WW2 air combat. So my experience is not even close to the real life pilot. But range finders ? Aiming aids ? IFF at 5 miles ? E state indicators ?
Right now a cannon Hog can BnZ from 5 miles distance, opening up at 1000 yards and hitting, due to all aiming aids. WW2 ? Nope.
As I have said many times before, I think the present icon system <in all the major online acm sims> can be improved. I do not suggest they accurately supply the information that is available in RL. They are indeed "crutches". I would like to see experimentation/improvement.
Nonetheless, the point of our disagreement on the ROE was "no icons". Nothing else.
I said then and I'll say again that presently "no icons" is even LESS realistic than the present icon system that needs improvement.
I would take that position again in discussing ROE for any "Rumble" that uses the current AH display technology.
I won't go into "why" in this topic. I suspect it would just be another argument.
You've read your books, I've lived my life.
I feel I've made an accurate judgement. I'm not convinced you are qualified to comment on what "looks" right.
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Originally posted by Yeager:
Givin the fact that the AH P51D is such a pitifully anemic vertical performer its no wonder that the 190A-5s prevailed.
Actually Yeager, the 51 has the advantage at 15K which is what our merge alt was. The higher the fite goes, the bigger the 51 advantage is. I've flown both planes quite a bit and although the A5 does much better between 10 and 20K than the A8 does, it still doesnt compare to the 51. For whatever reason it was, the 51s decided to try and turn with the 190s and played right into their game. Im sure if this were ever done again, the 51s would fite it differently. Ask Rude or Thunder and Im sure they would agree that nose high turns at that alt play into the 51s advantages due to the 190s departure characteristics.
Someone mentioned earlier that the next time a duel like this occurs, that pilots ought to switch sides afterwards. I think that would do wonders to alleviate any of this bragadocio we see here! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Besides, THAT would be fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Ding
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Sad.. ain't it. I pull 20+ good honest pilots; three CM; 4 Refs and about a gazillion spectators into an amazinhunk contest between me and Hristo.. and guess what folks.. I get that big cigar. I'm AM an amazinhunk for pullin you guys into it; for dumping on you all in all kinds of nasty ways when I lost it; and I'm gonna set it straight right here.
To all pilots; particpants; refs; CM's and spectators.. with the exception of Hristo the Braggart:
This was a horrible mistake; and my responsibilty. I had no right; no grounds for; and no excusble reason for dragging you all into this pile of dreck. I answered Hristo's challenge with an entirly diffrent agenda than yours.. and I am truly sorry for THAT as much as for it's outcome.. and this goes beyond.. far beyond the fight itself. I've insulted pilots that fly for all sides; gents that worked hard to give you a good show and kids that can't figure out WHAT the hell it is they stand for. (yeah; thats you RAM) Most are standing amazed at this 100+ post thread and wonder "Just WHAT in hell is THIS about; anyway?"
Well; I'm here to tell yah; it ain't about Allied vs Luftwaffe. It's about me; one childish and annoyed little pony boy that truly wanted the scalp of another childish and petulant little LW pilot. 2 children with a mutual axe to grind, with all kinds of little hidden agendas that run all the way back to our forefathers.
I hope I can find a way to get past this and put it behind.. and I publicly apologise for putting you all in the front row and then kickin the toejam off the stage into YOUR laps yet again. It does not belong there; and again.. I apologise for lettin my anger get a grip on my keyboard fingers.
So.. how to fix it?? How about this:
It would seem that the Rumble WOULD have been a lotta fun had Hristo and I brought you to this under the guize of a friendly fight.. instead you were lead into something else entirely. My fault.. the only fight he'd give was a 'squad sized fight' so that's what I set about to do.. and for one reason only.. to get him in my sights again.
So.. I propose for you all a rematch.. with a modified ROE based on what Nash, Mathman, TOAD and Udie come up with as a workable format for an Allied vs Luftwaffe Rumble. As soon as is practical. And do NOT allow it to degrade into something other than what it should be... a friendly furball with no hidden agendas.
And to insure thats what you guys get, I propose that Hristo and I stay out of it; it's ROE discussion and it's development. Completely out of it. Hands off. Keyboards off. Nothin.
Hristo; let these honorable pilots and gamesmen get on with enjoying the sim.
And now; on to one little piece of unfinished buisness that needs attending to.
Hristo; I challenge YOU; mano y mano to refly this little match we just had.. just you and me. Nobody else. After all, pond scum; it's me you want; just as much as I want you. No wingies to hide behind. No rhetoric to involve others in. Nothin to prove here other than our lasting hatred and disgust. You were good enuff to lead 10 men to the last match. Now; lets just see you bring yer arrogant bellybutton right on over to ME.
Further, I demand satisfaction for trashing my associate Allied and LW pilots good names and reps with yer bullcrap boasts. Honor demands it. And, lest there be no mistake about hidden agendas.. I want yer head on the end of my spear; pronto. Plain enuff? Just you and me, soccer boy, yer a5 vs my pony. Lets see whatcha got in the cockpit to back up all that stinking superior drivel yer spouting. Lets see you engage my PLANE and not your KEYBOARD.
So.. to pick up a time honored phrase and polish it for reconsumption; Pick up the gauntlet; or get lost. You wanna demonstrate to these other honorable gentlemen (a cadre we no longer have rights to claim membership in) that you have your own set of balls; you'll pick up that gauntlet and meet me with that A5 without roadkill sidesteps, dodges or delays.
Oh.. one other thing... did I mention yer lower than cat crap?
Hang
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This stinkfest reminds me of the joke of the AF guy relating a duel with a Navy squadron: "So we agreed to meet those bastards at 20k the next day...and would ya believe those dirty cheaters showed up at 25k? I swear if we hadn't been at 30 we mighta lost that fight..."
I've had a little exposure to 10v10's in the past. In my experience the pucker factor is similar to that of a scenario, except these events are characterized by such a brief, short burst of violence that nerves get a little more frayed. Unlike scenarios, there is no time for guys to work out the butterflies. So you've got 20+ guys in high performance war machines bearing down on each other. It's not surprising that ROE can go out the window in an instant. It's not necessarily that anyone intended to cheat...it's just that when hurtling towards that merge you enter the twilight zone and sometimes wierd things happen.
I do not mean to tell you guys how to throw your own party, but the event may flow better the fewer rules there are. My squad's philosophy was to turn these things into a street fight as quickly as possible. I mean who likes rules anyway? If you go in expecting utter chaos there is less chance of being surprised (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Anyhow...if I may suggest trying the old, "we'll meet you punks in sector X,Y. 20k ceiling. Everyone within 2k of each other. Once the shooting starts its jokers wild. Last man standing wins."
This should prevent one side from coming with a Daisy Chain formation.
Hope you gents work this out, I think the 10v10 event has a lot of merits. We all like that rush right before the stuff hits the fan. It makes all that arena time putting up with ackstars and altmonkeys worthwhile. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Hornet
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I guess I should laugh but....
Somehow reminds me of my school years when I was 10 years old...
Get over it guys. If this sim makes adult people behave like that it might be best solution if you type Format C and forget this sim never exist. Really.
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Why do i feel that both sides would have just let this go if it wasn't for one person trying to make "we're better then everyone else" point ?
Not exacly the first time it happend.
I don't know if Hristo is trolling or serious. he's an excellent pilot, he wiped my bellybutton in 1 on 1, but his statements erase any respect he migth have earned in my mind.
All he had to do it post "good fight guys" and it would have been over.
note to self - no BS duels.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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LOL Hornet..
"So we agreed to meet those bastards at 20k the next day...and would ya believe those dirty cheaters showed up at 25k? I swear if we hadn't been at 30 we mighta lost that fight..."
I needed a smile.. that did it.
Hang
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I think what we have in Hang and Hristo is the perfect archetype of the American and German fighter pilot. It's almost too bloody perfect... the tone, the words, the actions. Bless you two. I'd suggest nobody get too worked up about this. This is good stuff, if you step back, tilt yer head, squint yer eyes and give this whole thing another look.
A community is made up of characters. We've got some of the finest, most interesting characters assembled right here in Aces High... The differences help make the hobby itself interesting.... compelling....
I'm proud to be a part of it. <salute> all of ya.
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Originally posted by Nash:
I think what we have in Hang and Hristo is the perfect archetype of the American and German fighter pilot. It's almost too bloody perfect... the tone, the words, the actions. Bless you two. I'd suggest nobody get too worked up about this. This is good stuff, if you step back, tilt yer head, squint yer eyes and give this whole thing another look.
A community is made up of characters. We've got some of the finest, most interesting characters assembled right here in Aces High... The differences help make the hobby itself interesting.... compelling....
I'm proud to be a part of it. <salute> all of ya.
Can I be AH's world-class love muffin? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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"I got my first blow job!" -- Chuck Yeager, upon shooting down his first Me262.
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LOL Nash.. Jigs..
I'm doin my damndest to get at that bastids throat; and get this thing offa the communitys plate. I want his hide NOW.. and, by god; I'll have it, and in the same venue he so laughingly boasts about now.
The rhetoric he's been spewing has been directed at me.. and I think it's best we settled it one way or another between us.. once and for all, without involving one other soul.
If he won't fight after the above slap in the face, I expect he'll shut the hell up. This is one 'ghost' that ain't goin anywhere till I get my piece. He has no idea what a haunting he's let himself in for.
Nobody put me down.. his job ain't finished yet. Neither is mine.
Win lose or draw.. I'm in it till that boasting stops.. he'll not gloat free and clear over killin those ponys till I get MY crack at him. If I lose; and he starts that drivel again; I'll slap him in the face again.. and dammit, I'm willin to keep after that cat turd till he gets the message.
It ain't over till its over. I ain't even close to hearin the fat chick's audition.
Yah. It's personal.
Hang
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Jig is that true about chuck lol?
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Let's finish this.
The Event is just for fun.
The Enemy in Yesterday is your Friend today.
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Hristo....please
You go on and on and on....your wearin me out.
I know you from years back when I flew under a diff handle...you were the same then as you are now, full of crap!
Just say your ROE, and i'll come to your party....just stop runnin your big mouth for awhile and let the rest of us catch our breath ok? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As far as my original post to you regarding your statement about LW pilots being the best, it was made in jest...now I know for a fact....you do deserve the I'm Fulla Crappola Trophy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Later Oh Great and Powerful LW Dude!
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/rude.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Good post Rude,
besides it's not only Hristo.
PLZ, Hristo, Hangtime, Torque and all other Plz STOP!!!!!!!
Badger please reconsider, it's always great to see u up in the air.
Geez I can't believe it you are cussing about a simple furball, the way I read it
1 side stretched rules better than the other side and won, so what.
<S> to the CM Staff.
Swager, funked, i personal would like to participate in F4 vs Spit V to HAVE FUN.
greets
Maik
<JG54 Grünherz>
P.S.: HTC plz consider closin this pitifull THREAD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I doubt Pyros gonna close this thread. He's got better sense than that. There has been some fascinating back and forth here. Nothing too out of bounds... some might argue almost expected, given that the Sim Pyro helped create puts us in planes to go out and shoot eachother down. This is all in the name of competition... and it's pretty good evidence that this community lives and breathes.
If Pyro had closed this thread earlier when someone else suggested it, there woulda been alot of apologies missed.. and a bunch of animosity left hanging. It's rarely a good idea to close a thread imho... and I appreciate the way in which Pyro admins this board.
I know it's almost cliche.. but really.. you *don't* have to read a thread that offends you. To suggest cutting a discussion off because it offends you personally, then, is a bit selfish..no? No offence to you maik, I just wanted to comment on the 'lock this thread' shouts ya hear from time to time.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-25-2000).]
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well not that good, that post. I mean Rude'S.
Also to offensive
Nash, of course ur right in all terms. Didn't take it ofensive though.
BTW, my tracers are brighter than yours (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maik
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Torque
If you check stats for all tours, from Beta 1 to this tour you will find that Hristo and his alter egos have shot you down 11 times. On the other hand Enemy has ben shot down 6 times by you. The other alter egos got away from your hispanos. I guess this is not too complicated for you to find out.
Kills per time ? Well, fly single MG 151/20 109 and see how many kills per time you can make. How often you will have to land because of the fuel modifier. But of course, you need the C Hog crutch, now do you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Over and out.
Hangtime
You were the first to have insulted me. Things did not go as you planned and you took it too hard. I bragged to tease you a bit. But when you called me pond scum etc. friendly part was over. And the hypocrisy ? Where are P 51 films ? What do they hide ? Accusing us of same things you too did ?
If Luftwaffe lost The Rumble, maybe I would take it so hard too. I don’t know. Much was at stake here. Personal pride and ego among the first for me. Yes, I admit it, after what I have said before the fight, I could not live with possible defeat.
However, my intention was not to cheat. And we did not cheat. 11th pilot was pure coincidence.
Now watch the moment when “Fight’s on” was announced. Zoom into the map. See how many 190s merged. See how many P 51s merged. And you still have the nerve to come here and call for RoE merge busting by LW side ? You hypocrite ! There are still 6 P 51s who haven’t merged whan “Fights on” was announced (not counting 2 RTBing) !! Just like 6 190s. Equal number !
If you have fairness and honesty, why haven’t you already posted film by some of P 51 pilots. Are you hiding something ?
Hang, you have clearly won the RoE fight on both fights. You seem to be winning the arguments on this board. But by no means you have won the walk the walk part. You have lost both times. Face it.
Another challenge ? Have many more challenges have you got there ? How many times do I have to pick that gauntlet, Hang ? Until mergediver wins ?
This little pond scum proved it already. In G-10. Next time 190 pilots beat the P 51 pilots. No, I won’t take the challenge now. I will do it when it suits me. Meanwhile, enjoy your defeat. Besides, I don’t fight ghosts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
And you call me big mouth ?
Over and out.
to others
I really like Axis vs Allied antagonism. Really, I would like to see a HA with just the historical approach.
But, I admit I was pushed too far by some of posters on this tread. They seem to be taking this too hard. They either did not get or did not want to get the joking part of my posts. Therefore I appologize for offending you. It was never ment as offensive, but it started as a tease. However, some egoes could not take it and it all went to far.
Over and out.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Oh the beta crutch Hristo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Beta is Beta real Tours started from Tour one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) You still one short (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) I will admit tho you got me with the callsigns hristo 4(5,6,7?) torque 1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I also chk the callsign Carrie just incase. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)but I heard she never made it past the prom.
Big Blue is real purty.
The End
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-25-2000).]
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I flew a lot in the EAW " Ladder " competition.
We used a device so we could not use the extern views like in AH.
Then, we did a "best of 5"
The challenged pilot may choose first plane.
Then, it depends if its a "similar" or "dissimilar" challenge, what plane the other guys has to fly.
The guys who loose first round may choose first in second round etc.
I myself like similar planes matches the most.
This gives a really good impression who is the best pilot !
Like in EAW, when both pilots start at 10.000 with same speed, this would prevent all the problems in read in this forum like the cheating with alt and speed etc etc
So.. Hristo and Hang.. do a best of 5 with Similar planes and you now who is the best pilot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
( flying always the same plane gives you an advantage but this does not necessary mean you are the best pilot. When you have to fly more planetypes ,this gives a better idea imho )
Moosey
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
and kids that can't figure out WHAT the hell it is they stand for. (yeah; thats you RAM)
LOL...If all this wasnt so pathetic it would be a good thing to be posted as a social experiment...
LOL yes ,hang I sont figure out what the hell am I standing for...thats why I flew the rumble and that is the reason why I fly bishops, the same country as your's, Citabria and Torque's... I always took you as a reasonable and cool headed guy who had fun out of everything...and respected you as that. You are right I'm a kid that blows up at the first of second spark, but you know what?...
I dont need 15 hours to stop myself. Most times with 5 minutes I realize how wrong I am. And for sure I dont blew up all and everything that surrounds me in the meantime. And less than none the people who try to help me and who says "hey dont worry he is very hot, so when he cools all will be OK".
You gave steps back with the people YOU wanted, Hang, and you let the other people out. Sorry I dont accept those excuses the way you expressed them, not, at least after what I had to read from you.
Oh well, I still like your way of flying the P51, but I dont like what I see in you no more. And dont come and tell me that this is the first time you blew up in flames, because that is not what matters me. And you know it.
As you clearly said, not that you give a rats bellybutton about me, of course. But you know why?...I'm starting to feel like I really dont mind this too. So I'll go and play with your "barbies". Maybe its better.
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Hristo, I took your first message as the troll it was, but when you fell in the same way of posting as Hang's then you levelled with him. I know he has called you a lot of things and I know that we won fair and square, only to be called cheaters by a pissed off guy. Still I think you too went too far.
But for sure not the way people says. I readed all the posts you put here after the first trolling one and mainly they try to explain why did we move like we did,and why happened the 11th man accident. Still you also started a finger-ponting war with some guys here, and thats not fair. Anyway I think you will come out from this thing with very bad reputation when you dont deserve it. Not IMO. But I know you can live with that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and there are a lot of people who knows you (me included) and that respects you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I were in your skin I wouldn't accepted the duel again, as you just did. He had already 2 chances, one of them one on one.
And I dont know what good would do it...If you win that duel ,then in 2 months we'd have another glove from him, if you lose then we'd have to listen a lot of nasty things.
So the wise thing is to do what you did.
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To all the rest: I know Hangtime has a deep simpathy from this community and I know that this post,and others in different threads will make me lose consideration from you. I tried to keep my head cool and help to calm down the things here. What I received was a good bunch of lashes from Hangtime, and then I still have to see him calling me kid (who has conducted like a child last 2 days hangtime?).
I know that a lot of you will disagree with me and that tyhis will have bad consecuences for me. I dont mind. I am angry hurt and pissed. And over all annoyed.
Dont like to see someone I trust to come and slap me in my face after I defend him in front of all the community. And I dont forget it too.
Its all.
RAM, out.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Regardless, RAM, you are a complete idiot.
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Regardless, RAM, you are a complete idiot.
Look who's talking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Torque:
Jig is that true about chuck lol?
I believe that was back in their Nissen hut after they had gotten back from the bar. Obie O'Brian got that one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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"Stick with me baby, and you'll be fartin through silk." -- Unknown 8th AF pilot after handing a local lady silk underwear.
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Originally posted by Nash:
I know it's almost cliche.. but really.. you *don't* have to read a thread that offends you. To suggest cutting a discussion off because it offends you personally, then, is a bit selfish..no? No offence to you maik, I just wanted to comment on the 'lock this thread' shouts ya hear from time to time.
B]
Well truthfully Nash, it didnt affend me. I just felt it was such an inflamatory thread that it was dividing the community. Now that things have simmered down, its fine but if you look at all the flaming going on the first few messages, you might be able to see where I was coming from.
-Ding
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Yeah Dingy, yer absolutely right. It was just nasty at the beginning. It could have gone either way. I've got allota faith in human nature though... people tend to come to their senses sooner or later.
For the most part that's what happened here and I'm glad it was allowed to be played out to its conclusion.
And well... not everyone's gonna like eachother either... rivalries and bitterness are all part of this thing... I guess we gotta accept that too.
Cheers Dingy
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great times, huh ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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They were the best!
(http://members.home.net/winyah999/ProfFate.jpg)
I AM PROFESSOR FATE! (http://members.home.net/winyah999/proffate.wav)
a.k.a. BigJoe
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Originally posted by Hristo:
great times, huh ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think it was being some of the best times for me in AH...lots of fun and a challenging FM.
It's been 8 months since the 1.04 FM was introduced and I still sorely miss the previous one... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Lol Hristo good punt... whadda trip down memory lane THAT was. Almost forgot about this.
So... who's up for another Rumble? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Anyone with old films ?
How about another one "This day in history" Rumble ? Say, July 23rd ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
30 vs 30 ?
There is the D-9, P51B, P47, Tempest, La...
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ram your so called chalenging fm wqs blantantly incorrect. in 1.04 htc made a leap towards realism that should not be viewed as negative
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Yanno this was after the A5 was introduced but before it was "fixed" along with the P-47.
In hindsight, I cry foul! I demand satisfaction!
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Just a question.
How is it possible you see ranges of over 6k on the icons???
At my pc they always dissapear after 6k.
Hope to hear from you,
JG5FaBi.
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Originally posted by Fastbikkel:
Just a question.
How is it possible you see ranges of over 6k on the icons???
At my pc they always dissapear after 6k.
Hope to hear from you,
JG5FaBi.
It's an arena setting at this time the icon were visible early than currently.