Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on January 15, 2003, 07:03:32 AM
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The trial over the Canadians killed by the US pilots in Afghanistan continues. Apparently, the pilots responsible were on amphetamines - which are known to affect judgement in addition to other side effects.
Is the USAF the only air force that gives pilots these drugs? I was completely unaware of the practise. For instance, the RAF frowns on the use of ProPlus caffeine tablets, nevermind potentially mind bending narcotics - these are completely forbidden. Do you reckon things will change with this trial?
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Change?
The US change what they do just cos the rest of the world says so?
Ha!
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Amphetamines were given to german pilots in WW2, too. Makes perfect sense, it gives the guys better concentration and higher aggressiveness.
I don't think that incident was caused by drug-induced impaired judgement, it's just the usual case of "shit happens"...
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Was the pilot who sliced off the cable car in Italy on these things? That was some toejam that happened!
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Possibly devious, I don't know the full details of the case. Although, weren't they over-flying a live fire training area?
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Originally posted by devious
Amphetamines were given to german pilots in WW2, too. Makes perfect sense, it gives the guys better concentration and higher aggressiveness.
Heh, now you're taking lessons from the Germans? We all know how well they did :eek:
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Here is a link to the USATODAY article.
USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-01-07-friendly-fire-usat_x.htm)
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It was known several months ago that these pilots were on amphetamines...
But do you seriously think the USAF gave them these things? Recently a bunch of Marines were busted for traffiking large amounts of cocaine... I guess the Marine Corp was the one traffiking these drugs?
-SW
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Originally posted by Dowding
For instance, the RAF frowns on the use of ProPlus caffeine tablets, nevermind potentially mind bending narcotics - these are completely forbidden. Do you reckon things will change with this trial?
We've used em too, in the fairly recent past. I'm not sure if the policy has changed in the last few years though.
Gatso
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But do you seriously think the USAF gave them these things?
I was surprised as well, but apparently it is 'officially sanctioned'. It's not just a few tabs of speed bought off the street - it's medicinally produced stuff.
gatso - an RAF spokesman said they don't prescribe any drugs like amphetamines for their personnel.
Any other air forces do this kind of thing?
Having looked into the case, there seems to be much cause for blame to be attitbuted to holes in the command and control system, as much the pilots.
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The fact there's a trial over this sickens me. Blue on blue happens in war...that's why war is hell. If the Canadians are pissing and moaning over loss of troops, oh friggin well. There's been too many instances of blue on blue in every war past, and only now does anyone try to get reprocussions legally.
Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it...
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It was known several months ago that these pilots were on amphetamines...
But do you seriously think the USAF gave them these things? Recently a bunch of Marines were busted for traffiking large amounts of cocaine... I guess the Marine Corp was the one traffiking these drugs?
-SW
I know for a fact the Air Force gives them to them.
Read the book"Vipers in the Storm:The Diary of a Gulf War Fighter Pilot".Besides being an excellent book,at one point in it their tanker gives them notice when to take their "go pills"
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Originally posted by texace
Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it...
Come on man..it is nothing to do with not being able to handle war. Canada's past actions in both World Wars prove that they can handle war just fine.
What would the US say if Candians had killed US servicemen?
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Originally posted by texace
The fact there's a trial over this sickens me. Blue on blue happens in war...that's why war is hell. If the Canadians are pissing and moaning over loss of troops, oh friggin well.
You aren't man enough to wipe the tulips of the Canadian military personnel that went to Afghanistan, and risked their lives to help our ally in it's war against terrorism.
"Blue on blue happens." Cripes, how's your job a the grocery store going? Get hit by a run away grocery cart recently? :rolleyes:
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But Amphetamines are Schedule 1 drugs... illegal to anyone in the US... the main point behind their illegalisation is they are addictive, overdose = death, and do not allow you to function well while under the influence...
And the US Gov is giving them to pilots flying million dollar aircraft?
wtf??? :confused:
-SW
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I'm curous was this just an accident or is there something more behind it? If it was simply an accident then I'm not sure what the fuss is, there were tow other notable big friendly fire bombings with deaths in Afghanistan that Ive heard of, one around Mazar and another around Kandahar and I have not heard of a trial for either.
Is this case different than the others in fact, or is the Canadian government just insisting on this?
SW they are giving pilots both stimulants and depressants as required, there was a tread about this recently on the BBS.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm curous was this just an accident or is there something more behind it? If it was simply an accident then I'm not sure what the fuss is, there were tow other notable big friendly fire bombings with deaths in Afghanistan that Ive heard of, one around Mazar and another around Kandahar and I have not heard of a trial for either.
Is this case different than the others in fact, or is the Canadian government just insisting on this?
SW they are giving pilots both stimulants and depressants as required, there was a tread about this recently on the BBS.
Of course it was an accident. Ridiculous to suppose otherwise. The question is about negligence, who's and how severe. The very least that is likely is that these guys will lose their careers. The most is that they'll spend a few years in prison. Probably about the same as would happen in a car accident in Canada?
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Apparently, US military pilots go on a course about the amphetemes, and the discuss it's symptoms etc. They are issued the "go-pills". And it is at the discretion of the pilot whether or not they use them.
It appears there is confusion on whether or not the pilot involved in this incident was ordered to take them or not.
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Grun- you know the title of that thread?
I know the effects of amphetamines... and I know giving 'em to someone who needs to have their head on straight to do their job is a very bad idea.
I'd be happy to do that job sober!
-SW
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Originally posted by AKIron
Of course it was an accident. Ridiculous to suppose otherwise. The question is about negligence, who's and how severe. The very least that is likely is that these guys will lose their careers. The most is that they'll spend a few years in prison. Probably about the same as would happen in a car accident in Canada?
Exactly. The question is whether or not the pilot was criminally negligent in his actions. And they are having a trial to determine this.
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I think it was "Bennies in the Jets" or something funny like that. :D
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Found it Grun- thnx...
I knew soldiers were given drugs... but not all of them, and it was more a test during Vietnam on certain combat units...
But giving them to pilots?!
That is fukin criminal.
-SW
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I don't see what the big deal is with flying on speed.
I have driven on acid many times before, and I have never hit a one of them dancing hippos.
F.
straight up
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Originally posted by Furious
I have driven on acid many times before, and I have never hit a one of them dancing hippos.
I see you failed to comment on the oompa loompas tho....
-SW
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Ground Control to Pilot
(Capt. Lockheed & The Starfighters, Robert Calvert 1974)
Ground Control: Ready... Ready... R- for ruminant ready for last minute cock-pit-check?
Pilot: OK.
GC: Largactil....five milligrammes.
P: Check.
GC: Valium...ten milligrammes.
P: Check.
GC: Haloperidol...five milligrammes.
P: Which one?
GC: The little white ones. W - W for white.
P: (a bit slower) OK. Check.
GC: Phenobarbitone. Five Milligrammes
P: (slower) Check.
GC: Disipel...five milligrammes.
P: (even slower) Cheeeck.
GC: Glass of water.
P: Cheeeeeeeck...
Ground Control and Pilot: Our father .... which art in heaven hallowed be ... mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxi ma culpa.
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Originally posted by texace
The fact there's a trial over this sickens me. Blue on blue happens in war...that's why war is hell. If the Canadians are pissing and moaning over loss of troops, oh friggin well. There's been too many instances of blue on blue in every war past, and only now does anyone try to get reprocussions legally.
Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it...
Sorry texace,
What if the roles were reversed and it was Canadian pilots wiping out some American ground forces? Would you still be so non-chalant about it? We owe the Canadian troops at least this much. If the pilots are found to be negligent, they will be punished, if not, they will be cleared.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It was known several months ago that these pilots were on amphetamines...
But do you seriously think the USAF gave them these things? Recently a bunch of Marines were busted for traffiking large amounts of cocaine... I guess the Marine Corp was the one traffiking these drugs?
-SW
I have no doubt that USAF pilots get amped up, it was common during Nam to feed troops with it. One major side effect I ran into was that your pupils dialate making night fighting tough since any flash of light would blind you briefly and leave a remnant making it difficult to fire your weapon effectively.
The drug gurus in the military probably have developed a drug that doesn't have that particular side effect since quality of vision is paramount to a succesful air ops.
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Originally posted by MrLars
The drug gurus in the military probably have developed a drug that doesn't have that particular side effect since quality of vision is paramount to a succesful air ops.
Hence the reason they hit friendlies?
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I watched on a few different news shows last night. A couple of universal facts here...
The canadians were conducting a live fire exercise in a war zone that was being overflown by US military aircraft.
The pilots were not briefed that there were ANY friendlys on the ground in the area.
They were flying along and saw a missile fired from the ground. They got on the radio and asked for info, got none. The missile was in the air like 3 minutes.
Pilot made decision to drop bomb on what they thought was the enemy.
Right after bomb explodes, they hear on radio that there are friendlies in the area.
I saw people unassociated with the crews legal team claiming that the problem was further up the chain of command, that the pilots were more or less scapegoats.
Anyways, that's what I saw on the boob tube. Wouldn't be surprised if they are just scapegoats. Reminds me of back in the early nineties when the #2 gun on the Iowa exploded and the navy cooked up the story that one of the sailors was a homo and was tryin to 'splode him and his lover. Upon further investigation the crazy story was disproven.
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maybe the .mil needs to drug it's pilots because they arent the cream-of-the-crop as they should be...appointments to the .mil academies are almost never merit based...alot like preWWII RAF
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hblair. It wouldnt suprise me of a coverup as well.
Its been my thinking all along. However the News I have been hearing is that the pilot was told to not drop and he chose to do so after.
Still think its a coverup tho.
Gota stop drinking with these meds :)
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I see you failed to comment on the oompa loompas tho....
-SW
My lawyer says I shouldn't talk about that.
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Originally posted by hblair
The canadians were conducting a live fire exercise in a war zone that was being overflown by US military aircraft.
They were conducting a live fire exercise in a designated training area. Where other teams, including US special forces teams, conducted live fire exercises earlier.
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Originally posted by texace
Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it...
err, I think canadians can handle war. What's that got to do with it?
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thrawn has more free time on his hands so I defer to him :D
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They were conducting a live fire exercise in a designated training area. Where other teams, including US special forces teams, conducted live fire exercises earlier.
I got my info off of american TV so it has to be right! :D That's the term they used no kiddin...
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Originally posted by Ping
thrawn has more free time on his hands so I defer to him :D
I work in tech support. I have an OC3 connection and can't surf for porn. :o
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(edited - what I basically said had already been posted while I was typing)
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by hblair
I got my info off of american TV so it has to be right! :D That's the term they used no kiddin...
I thought the BBC would be a neutral enough news source.
"Investigation
This latest episode is even more perplexing since the Canadian troops attacked were in a designated exercise area rather than engaged in offensive operations. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1937217.stm
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Well crap wulfie. That was a good read man, you shouldn't have edited it. :(
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Well, if it ain't amphetamines or methamphetamines they are being fed, then it isn't as bad.
Wulfie- I read what you typed before you edited it- I would just like to say that ephedrine and ripped fuel (ripped fuel contains ephedrine, but I seperated them because there are 2 versions of ripped fuel, and ephedrine now comes in it's own pill form at 7-11 and other convenience stores) shouldn't be considered engineered very well.
They result in starry vision, and very poor night vision. During the day, looking at the bright blue sky or anything white also leads to seeing some strange things.
I can't really explain it better than that, but the effects, and after effects, it causes are almost like a lower potency/quality form of speed. And speed is one nasty drug to be under the influence if you need to make intelligent decisions.
Sure, you can react faster and make decisions faster.... but it just may not be quite right. :)
-SW
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Agreed hblair. Wulfie..should put it back in.
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Sorry guys, it was better for me to not post 'in such detail' right now. The main point was mentioned by others (finally) - hold off on judgement and no one (regardless of Nationality) took those guys getting killed lightly.
AKSWulfe - how long were you using it for? I'm not going to get into brand names but in my experience once your system is 'used to' whatever you are using, the 'hyper effects' tend to disappear. With me (using stims of one kind or another for years now) if I change what I'm using I usually go half doses for the first week. Lots of doctors in my family - I usually ask them about it and main advice I got was 'don't continue use when not required for work', i.e. 3 or 4 weeks of easy work or vacation or leave and I don't use them at all.
The official stuff being used isn't amphetamines or methamphetamines to my knolwedge. And like eagl posted elsewhere it's used under supervision of trained medical types.
Mike/wulfie
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I used it for a lil over a year, but the wierd vision things didn't start to crop up until a few months before I stopped using it all together.
The starry vision is actually just a lack of oxygen to the brain, but the ephedrine complicated that problem during work outs or getting up early in the morning... the other stuff (I can only explain it as swimmy vision, but not nearly anything like a hallucinogen would produce) was more pronounced the longer I took the Ripped Fuel and with less sleep.
In any event, I don't really care about this issue since the drugs these pilots are given are apparently not of the illegal nature... but given the choice between a caffiene pill and ephedrine(or something like ephedrine/speed/cocaine), I'd take the caffiene...
-SW
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And all this time thinking "War on Drugs" meant some other thing....
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Caffeine has laxative effects and people tend to have high tolerance on it because of coffee.
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Originally posted by Dowding
gatso - an RAF spokesman said they don't prescribe any drugs like amphetamines for their personnel.
Yeah. You have to be careful though. 'Not prescribed' is not the same as 'we don't use them at all'. It's not exactly the sort of thing we'd want to advertise is it?
I'm absolutley possitive we don't use them during regular peace time training activities but go ask any RAF squadron Doc whether he carries em in his case when they get deployed to anywhere that real combat could be expected and I'm 95% sure you'd find them on the inventory as a 'just in case' item. Unless a very recent RAF pilot chap I had a few chats with quite recently was telling fibs a few FAA/RAF pilots took the 'official' speed during the Falklands and DS.
Gatso
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That's what I get for being differnet...:rolleyes:
Had the roles been reversed...I'd feel no different. Firendly fire happens...it's part of war. Had it been American troops...the shock is still there...it's no different.
What gets me is the fact there's a trial over something that happens during wartime. These pilots are put on trial for a criminal thing for something that happens in war. They said they were getting shot at...they did what most pilots would do to protect themselves.
I never said it was a funny thing that it happened to Candians...I never commended the American pilots for killing firendlies...all I said was the trial was a crock. My entire famliy's military, and I'll be joining here real soon anyways, and I've always carried the upmost respect for men in uniform. Men died to protect my freedom...and I don't piss on that.
Grocery store job doesn't exsist anymore, Thrawn. Why do you tihnk I'm joining the military? Don't judge me on what I post here...
semp out...
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Item 1: I'm not in favour of this trial.
Item 2: I knew one of the people killed, and 2 of the others who were wounded, and have a good friend who was good friends with Sgt. Leger who quite frankly should be in psychiatric care he's been so volatile since the incident. This effects me in a closer way than it does most of you.
Hblair, that was the first I've heard of a missile, the pilots so far as I've heard only saw tracer fire going into the air (this is confirmed by Canadian troops, there were riccochets from full auto MG fire going skyward).
BTW Texace, the training grounds were about 3 or 4 miles from the end of Khandahar's main runway. It's not like it was out in the middle of knowhere.
The problem is that the US pilots were briefed to expect a lot of AAA, as Iran was suspected of supplying the Taliban with a lot of AAA hardware, and to EXPECT fire from anywhere. The Canadian excercise was OMITTED from their briefing. All this crap about the uppers etc is exactly that: crap.
The pilots called AWACS serveral times requesting clarification that there was in fact NO FRIENDLY troops in the area. In my book they did their part, and any pilot who sees tracer fire near their aircraft will surely drop a bomb on the source if given the chance to.
The failure was in the briefing staff and the communications between ground and air forces in terms of co-ordination of exercises, this is a KNOWN issue as several ranking officers over there warned that this specific incident was just waiting to happen.
It's a shame that these pilots are on trial, but US guys, realize it's more the USAF putting them on trial than the Canadian Forces, as the USAF knows that their briefers and the officers put in charge of co-ordination (no Canucks were allowed in on this) are the ones who dropped the ball, and obviously THEIR rank supercedes the F16 pilot's innocense.
It was a horrible accident, but the finger is being pointed in the wrong place.
Also, a little tibit for your gay little attitude Texace:
When the PPCLI engaged in the operation on the whale, the Canadian troops had to CARRY their own water and food for the duration of the operation, UP the freaking hill. The 10th mountain troops got flown in to a higher spot, where the Canucks had to CLIMB, PLUS got their rations and water FLOWN in daily.
35% of the 10th mountain went down to heat/altitude exhaustion during the festivities. Zero Canadians went down.
Not to mention the fact that our sniper units working with SF, Delta, and various Seal teams racked up more bodies than anyone else, inlcuding the longest combat shot in the world, earning the highest praises from the most elite units in the USA. In the words of one Seal: The Canadians are equivalent to us in terms of capabilites, and this is their regular line infantry.
Enough said.
PPCLI
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Allow me to get one thing clear, Gman...
Never once did I bash the Canadian troops...nor did I ever say they were inferior. I knew the Canadians had the short end of several sticks in this war. (IE...issued jungle camofluage netting instead of desert brown)
I never said the Canadians were anything...other than in the wrong place at the wrong time. You said yourself the exact same thing I said...that the Americans were defending thmeselves for a believed enemy attack.
Don't put words in my mouth...
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The amphetamines are irrelevant. Mistakes happen in war time. They always have and they always will.
Nowadays, if they encounter a "blue on blue" engagement, the victims don't have time to call up on the radio and get the shooting to stop. They're dead.
Welcome to the world of the precision guided munition. Right or wrong target... both equally dead.
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"Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it... "
"I never said the Canadians were anything...other than in the wrong place at the wrong time. You said yourself the exact same thing I said...that the Americans were defending thmeselves for a believed enemy attack. "
Oh contraire mon frere.
We handle (have handled) war just fine, but thanks for your concern.
I love the internet - if only the machismo displayed by folks from behind their computer monitors could be harnessed... what a mighty army there'd be.
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We handle (have handled) war just fine, but thanks for your concern.
I submit Vimy Ridge, where Canadians broke the Germans back after every other country failed, and literally turned the tide of the first world war, and outperformed all their allies in every major war and exercise since.
The one thing that IS of interest to me in regards to the upper pills is how the USAF will deem you unfit to fly if you DON'T take them, yet still calls their use "voluntary" (so says the Pilots lawyer, and the DOD isn't disputing it). Too bad Eagl is banned, I'm sure he'd have a lot to contribute on this issue.
I hope the people with honour and intelligence prevail in this inquiry, and they fix the PROBLEM and not the blame.
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The latest:
BARKSDALE AIR FORCE BASE, La. (CP) - Officials in charge of air operations in Afghanistan could do nothing to protect Canadian soldiers killed in an accidental bombing because the situation escalated too quickly, a member of the team testified Wednesday.
Col. Larry Stutzriem was part of the Coalition Air Operations Centre, or CAOC, based in Saudi Arabia last April 18 when he heard a distressing transmission over the radio. Stutzriem said he heard an air controller advising a U.S. pilot to hold fire while they checked into reported surface-to-air fire.
The pilot, Maj. Harry Schmidt, was requesting permission to use a 20-mm cannon on ground forces he thought were attacking him and his lead pilot, Maj. William Umbach.
"Then right after that, there was a call from (the Airborne Warning and Control System) that the air crews had declared self-defence," Stutzriem said at a hearing looking into the friendly fire deaths of four Canadians.
"There was nothing CAOC could do for them, nothing there to start the process."
Less than three minutes elapsed between Schmidt first seeing the ground fire and his dropping a 225-kilogram laser-guided bomb on the Canadian troop that was conducting live-fire training exercises near Kandahar.
Two video displays portrayed in chilling detail the final seconds before Schmidt deployed the bomb.
As he passed over the training site at an undisclosed altitude, Schmidt said he saw men on a road below. After asking to fire on them, he is told by a controller to "just make sure that it's not friendlies."
Seconds later, he says he thinks the troops are firing on him and Umbach, who is flying alongside in another F-16.
Schmidt makes a decision and, breathing heavily, says "I am rolling in, in self-defence." Then, "bombs away, breaking left."
A large plume of white smoke is seen on the infrared images as the bomb explodes on the Canadians below.
"Shack," Schmidt says in response to the blast.
Controllers on the AWACS plane respond almost immediately with a haunting message: "Disengage. Friendlies, Kandahar."
Schmidt complies, but then asks, "Can you confirm that they were shooting at us?"
Stutzriem, who was stationed at the Prince Sultan Air Base, said the request to fire on the ground troops was "extremely unusual, something you wouldn't expect" at night.
Stutzriem said the air crew "was in complete control of the situation," implying that the pilots should have relied on more instruction from the controllers.
Families of some of the dead Canadian soldiers watched the video via closed-circuit TV in a room on this base in Bossier City, La. They were not available for comment.
Defence lawyers said they would respond to Stutzriem's testimony Thursday.
The pilots have been charged with involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty. The hearing will determine if there is enough evidence to court martial them.
The two pilots maintain a communications breakdown left the air crew unaware of the coalition training exercise.
Earlier in the day, several of the eight Canadian soldiers injured in the attack described what happened in the early-morning hours as the bomb detonated on top of them.
Seconds after he heard an eerie whistling overhead, Cpl. Rene Paquette said he was hurled into the black night sky with thoughts of his newborn daughter racing through his mind.
Paquette was climbing a steep drainage ditch on the range when a bright, deafening flash lit up the darkness around him.
"I was enveloped in white light," Paquette, 33, testified Wednesday.
"I could see the ground just below my hands and feet and it occurred to me, 'Why can't I touch the ground?' "
"I thought 'Please give me a chance to see my child.' "
Paquette, who suffered permanent hearing loss and flash burns, was called to appear at this base in northern Louisiana to testify on behalf of the U.S. military.
The soldiers, all members of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, were using mostly small arms to practise on targets on the range once used by al-Qaida terrorist forces.
Paquette, straining to hear questions, said ricochets and tracers from the training exercises would have produced occasional bright flashes and white light. Some of the fire would have been directed skyward as the men targeted an old Soviet tank.
Master-Cpl. Curtis Hollister, who suffered burns to his face after being thrown through the air, said some of the fire was directed at an angle of 45 to 70 degrees.
Lawyers defending the pilots argue the ground flashes and airborne fire made the pilots believe they were being attacked.
The six-member defence team focused Wednesday on the rate of fire, the weapons used and the angle at which the rounds were being shot.
Some of the Canadians have testified weapons were being shot into the air, but that the spent ammunition would have burned out well below the pilots.
Military lawyers showed a still picture of grainy video footage taken from Umbach's cockpit that displayed Schmidt locking on the men as they practised below.
Sgt. Lorne Ford, who was acting as an exercise observer that night, calmly named each soldier as Schmidt was heard telling controllers he was rolling in.
Seconds later, he dropped the bomb.
The scene below descended into chaos.
Ford, 33, said he heard the sound of a jet overhead, then blacked out.
"I was blinded in my right eye," he said before limping out of the hearing room. "I had lacerations all over my body and shrapnel was all over my body."
Cpl. Brett Perry, who was involved in the anti-tank exercise, started searching the arid terrain for survivors. He came across the bodies of Sgt. Marc Leger, Pte. Nathan Smith and Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, but realized someone was missing.
The area, a desolate, rock-strewn expanse, was so dark that he "tripped over Pte. (Richard) Green," who was thrown from the blast.
Schmidt and Umbach could face up to 64 years in military prison if the case goes to a court martial and they are convicted.
Everyone has suffered enough. Most if not all the families DO NOT want the US pilots to go to jail over this, an exact quote by one of the fathers of the fallen : Enough families have been destroyed over this accident, there is no need to destroy any more.
It takes a big man to say that, and if he can, so should the rest of us.
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That's what I get for being differnet...
Is that what you call it? You almost make yourself sound like something special, perhaps a child prodigy. Written any piano concertos recently? How about Booker prize winning books? Or maybe you've specialized in inane posts dripping with redundant machismo... I'm sorry, mate, you've got alot of competition around here.
Never once did I bash the Canadian troops...
Oh dear.
Gman:
...and outperformed all their allies in every major war and exercise since.
I'm interested - what do you base this conclusion on?
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Gman, Does Dieppe count?
What happened to the American Chopper pilot that disobeyed orders and Killed fellow Americans in the Original Gulf war? This is not the first time that there has been actions taken regarding FF.
Just seems to be Highly publicized.
I'm going to presume that their Mil career is over but will be no Jail time. All this to protect any REMF that prolly should take the blame.
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What the hell is this beating of chests about? In my original post I made comments on how the trial was not nessecary, a crock, and that there was no reason for it.
Now y'all make it seem like I killed the troops out there and is pleased about what I did...
Look...I do not hide over the Internet...I do not pretend I am someone I'm not. I do not consider myself special. Come down off your high horse and quit puffing your chests out. I did not bash the soldiers in the field, I made a comment on how the Canadians wanted a trial so justtice could be served.
I've never heard of any other trials regarding friendly fire, only now. You want the real reason I think like I do? Talk to my parents...
Quit trying to make it seem like I'm the bad guy...if you're going to be sensetive that I critisize something like this, then by all means tell me, lest I hurt your little feelings. Come on...I have my own opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's just that, an opinion...
(edited to fix spelling)
:rolleyes:
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brothers killing brothers......bad...very bad I say
but to blame them.....WRONG!!!
those pilots where doin there JOB....maybe a little fast on the trigger...maybe on drugs...who gives a chit.....DO NOT BLAME THE FLYERS FOR DOIN THERE JOB.....they where there to PROTECT our ground troops......there was a FAILURE OF COMMUNICATION.
now brothers vs brothers with words......STOP guys you sound childish.....
Canada WILL always HELP our brothers from the south....
nuff said....
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I'm betting that fatique is far more mind altering than the "go" pills they were taking.
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I've heard a different description of what happened.
The pilot called in that there were possible AAA fire below him. He was told by ground controllers to wait while they checked if there were friendlies around.
Then there was more firing, after which the pilot called *going in'.
Anyone tried amphetamines? It feks you up. Makes you overly aggresive and severly limit your inhibitions. You'll do stuff you wouldn't do not high on it. And that's what i think ahppened here. Pilot high and aggressive, a possible target below. Loss of inhibitions (maybe I should check first) and then the bomb was dropped.