Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on January 15, 2003, 07:38:25 PM
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Apparently, affirmative action has so many emotionally charged connotations, that politicians don't like to use the term.
However, I'm not so encumbered. In fact, I hate affirmative action. I'm not afraid to call it racial discrimination.
I am a victim of affirmative action. I took the written civil service test in 1972 in the city of Detroit, Michigan for the position of Deputy Sheriff. I scored number 05, out of over 2,000 applicants. I completed the physical agility tests and oral boards flawlessly. I needed that job so bad. I barely kept body and soul together waiting and waiting while being laid off from a job. It was so hard waiting, and I got divorced from my first wife during this time.
I was not hired for two years. There were some 40 or 50 black females hired ahead of me, as deputies. As it turned out, several of them had already been fired for such things as Cowardice, Repeated failure to meet standards at the gun range, and I don't know what all else. When I qualified at the gun range, one of those black females was still there still trying to qualify (with her attorney present if you can believe that) and suing the department for her job on a racial basis.
I'm not a racist man. One of my best childhood friends, who is still a Deputy back there in Detroit to this very day, is married to a black women who was a vice cop when they got married. They have 5 children last time we spoke. She is a very good cook and a beautiful person.
I just want to get on record. Affirmative action is a vile thing.
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Affirmative action is racism.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Affirmative action is racism.
Your obviously a racist! What exactly is "Sandman" supposed to mean anyway? Youre prejudice against Middle Easterners?
...wait... toejam Im sorry, had a liberal flashback.
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Not to spoil your joke or anything... but this should shed some light on the subject of my handle... My first name is Sandy and I am male.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Not to spoil your joke or anything... but this should shed some light on the subject of my handle... My first name is Sandy and I am male.
I'm soooo sorry!
That's nearly as bad as Leslie!
;)
BTW, AA has helped a lot more than it hurt.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm soooo sorry!
That's nearly as bad as Leslie!
;)
BTW, AA has helped a lot more than it hurt.
Hehe... could be worse... could be Stacy. :)
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Enough of that... we have hijacked this thread... :)
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I could have saved you guys a lot of effort and hijacked this with cop questions right from the start. :D
The whiney super-libs here at MSU are always quick to point out that the largest beneficiary of affirmative action has been white women. FYI. That doesn't help gunthr much though.
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Some quotage for the lazy ;)
"Quota systems that use race to include or exclude people from higher education and the opportunities it offers are divisive, unfair and impossible to square with the Constitution," Bush said.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20030116/D7OJ0SV00.html
I like how at the bottom they try to say that it has ANYTHING at all to do with Trent Lott's remarks or increasing aid to Africa.
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Quit being such victims. In principle affirmative action isnt need, but in reality theres lots of racism in the work-world. Nobody wants to advocate hiring unqualified individuals. But if every single company hired only the top scoring individuals, then every single position would be filled by white guys. If someone scores within the 'acceptable' range, then I believe it is ok to discriminate by race. Police forces especially need to be representitive of the population.
The U.S. does not benefit by having large impoverished sections of society (blacks and mexicans). Would I be angry if a black man got a job that I applied for? No, I would just find another job.
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AA always ignores Asians, both male and female, who categorically have the best school grades and test results and are the wealthiest people in america overall. Thats statistical fact.
So its not so much about race or racism, or not being a white male, but about percieved stupidity and inadequacy among cultural groups by liberals of all colors who demand the orthodox AA. Thats why I think it actually reinforces negative sterotypes and negative self image towards people it aims to help.
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1972?
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AA - making equal more equalier :rolleyes:
prez has big brass ones to state his case considering the timing
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1972?
25 - 30 years ago, original date of application is probably more like mid 70's. Yep, I'm an old fart.
But if every single company hired only the top scoring individuals, then every single position would be filled by white guys.
- Davidpt40
Doesn't this sound like a racist statement to you, David?
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whenever I need help from someone in a possition of power (doctor, lawyer, supervisor etc.) I allways pick a white male because I know he didn't get there from affirmative action. Jewish males work out well. Try to avoid black women.
lazs
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It's NEVER OK to go by race.
Imagine, if you will, a honour student with flawless grades, having done community job etc. This guy applies for Harvard.
Mr Joe Average, a white man form the middle class applies. TRhe hounor student doesn't get in because they want more 'racial diversity'.
The NAACP would be crying 'RACISM' sooner than you could blink. Suits would fly left and right.
And they'd be right. Except it seems some people understand racism as whites making negative comments about others. Which is racist in itself - it suggest that only whites consider themselves superior to other races.
Bush is right - I hate to say it. His plan to automatically include the top 10% from all high school is a better way to go. Som4e schools will have a majority of minorities (fun word play). There, a higher percentage will be non white amongst the 10% top students - and diversity is ensured.
Excluding white people because they're white is just as racist as excluding blacks for their colour. People need to realise that racism isn't a white thing only.
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Yep, government mandated racism.
SOB
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If government has to involve itself at all in college admissions, and I'm not sure that it should, Bush's plan would sure be more acceptable to me than what goes on now ... and it could help heal some of the bad feelings and stigma that attaches to "affirmative action" as it is presently perpetrated.
Unfortunately, there is a growing segment of the population that insists that not only should "affirmative action" continue unchanged, but they insist that it does not go far enough - that Reparations are demanded as being justly due - even though a given member of American society may not have ever discriminated against black people or even had ancestors who discriminated against them.
Their rationale is that as a non-black member of a racist society, you have benefited from racism, and you and your children therefore owe a debt to black people that must be paid.
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AA also promotes racist attitudes.
look at it objectivly.
lets say every company uses AA when hiring for all positions. giving 'x' number of extra points (on whatever scoring system they use) to blacks (or insert your opressed minority of the day). anyway, assuming people are going to get the best paying (usually hardest to get) job they can, logically and mathmaticly you can see that for any given possition the black would be the least qualified of any given team of workers. simply because if if he was even equal to the rest of his co-workers, he would be ahead of them in testing by whatever margine the AA bonus gives him and therefore working at a different job that pays more and requires a better score.
in this way AA guarentees that the minority is always the stupidest, least qualified member at any given level of an AA company. perpetuating the myth that all members of this race are stupid. you can say all the PC crap you want but if you rig the system up so every time someone meets a member of a minority on a professional level this minority is the least qualified person avilable, you can't really be suprised when these people develope stereo types about the minoritys (for most sane people personal experience counts more than PC retoric).
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Originally posted by Gunthr
25 - 30 years ago, original date of application is probably more like mid 70's.
Well, without turning this into a Lexis/Nexis research project... I would hazard a guess that the Detroit Sheiff's dept. had deliberately discriminated against minorities for decades and that the system was imposed by a court.
I don't support affirmative action now, but I think that the date might put it in context.
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Does this mean that GWB is taking affirmative action against affirmative action? :D
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Man, I am gonna get rich when I get reparations from Sweden.
AND from Denmark. I lived there too. And as I have said in other debates, I shall get poor again when I have to pay the French and Brits.
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Well, without turning this into a Lexis/Nexis research project... I would hazard a guess that the Detroit Sheiff's dept. had deliberately discriminated against minorities for decades and that the system was imposed by a court.
- Montezuma
I agree that discrimination may have existed prior to my application, Montezuma, but I rather doubt there was anything deliberate or sinister about it. I think it was a matter of not being able to get enough qualified black applicants.
The past view of the courts on this kind of so-called discrimination has been:
" It is not necessary to prove that someone intended to discriminate against you: it is sufficient only to show that the outcome of their action was that you received less favourable treatment." I disagree.
I don't doubt that AA was court ordered at the time I applied to the Sheriff's Dept. However, I still believe it was fundementally wrong and unfair to change requirements depending on what race you are.
Some interesting facts:
When I applied to, and worked at the Wayne County Sheriff's Department in Detroit, the Sheriff was a black man, and he had held office for years before I considered applying there. The Chief of the Detriot Police Department was a black man. The population of the City of Detroit had a majority of black citizens. The mayor of the City of Detroit was a black man. The inmate population of the Wayne County Jail was over 70% black inmates.
Remember that just because a court has ordered some kind of remedy for what it has percieved as some kind of discrimination doesn't mean that this is an absolute truth. Perceptions change. Court decisions are challenged, and their decisions can be, and are reversed.
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Allways better to stick with white male proffessionals... they probly had to earn their degree and stature. I am partial to men of jewish persuassion when I need a lawyer or a doctor or a comedian.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Allways better to stick with white male proffessionals... they probly had to earn their degree and stature. I am partial to men of jewish persuassion when I need a lawyer or a doctor or a comedian.
lazs
Absolutely right Lazs. For example, I always look for an inbred white cracker missing teeth when I bet on a tabacky spitting contest, and those guys with the dunce cap hats are really good at burning cross shaped objects.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I am partial to men
Laz..say it aint so...Git Back in the Closet. :p
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Its obvious that at 1 point something had to be done. Look at the trouble the Tuskagee Airmen had to face.
Since that time its gone too far the other way, the same applies here in Canada.
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Flight of the intruder.
Drop it on me Sandy.I'd do it for you.:rolleyes:
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MT... yes... you would get good results at that end of the spectrum too. I got no problem with that. course... you find very little afirmative action in those fields. Same for say..... basketball.
ping... it isn't so. (not that there's anything wroing with that).
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Some interesting facts:
When I applied to, and worked at the Wayne County Sheriff's Department in Detroit, the Sheriff was a black man, and he had held office for years before I considered applying there. The Chief of the Detriot Police Department was a black man. The population of the City of Detroit had a majority of black citizens. The mayor of the City of Detroit was a black man.
If this was during the late 60's to early 70's and you changed the city to Dearborn you'd get the exact oposite racial makeup with blacks being excluded in virtualy all catagories including population.
Not challenging your points, just saying you could find these kinds of racial favoritism often very close to eachother geographicaly back then.
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One of the big issues, is public schools in poor, mostly minority inner city areas don't have the funding that the white, wealthy area public schools get. One could argue that minorities deserve special consideration based upon this. I think that's crap, at least partly.
Affirmative action is definetely racism, and should be put down. Solving a race issue by institutiing another is just adding to the problem. But maybe there is something that can help out those that came from economically challenged areas that is based on geography, local economics, maybe even family income. Whatever, so long as it's not based on skin color?
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Affirmative action? I dunno...
But it strikes me as (here it is again) hypocritical for Bush to champion this fight. Do you think he got into Yale because of merit? Unh uh. How then does he defend the institutional favoritism that got him there?
His SAT score was nowhere near the level needed for acceptance at an Ivy League school. It was almost 200 points lower than the average for Yale freshmen (circa 1970). Indeed, it was roughly the same as that for most of the black students who again admission to these schools based on affirmative action.
Then we have the whole whole National Guard... and the lack of actual "guarding" per say....
Looks to me like wealth and priveledge is a form of affirmative action in and of itself.
Yet there is no movement among conservatives to require that the benefactors of family privilege display the same level of merit as anyone else...
Yeah, affirmative action may suck... But I don't think it's Bush's fight.
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nash... it could be argued that if some people buy there way into schools then they are of value. The money improves the school and therfore benifiets everyone... much in the same way that athletes "earn" their place in schools. Affirmative action simply subtracts from the system.
lazs
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MrLars, I don't disagree that the suburban city of Dearborn just outside of Detroit did practise racism as it attempted to remain all white.
The City of Inkster, next to Dearborn, was predominantly black during the same time frame. In the 60's, overt and covert racism was practised all over the country.
My personal situation in Detroit was the result of a misguided court deciding that because black people had been, in effect, discriminated against in hiring because they were unable to compete in the test scores and other job requirements, that they would now practise racism against poor young Gunthr to make up for it, even though the guy had never discriminated against anybody.
I don't see any theoretical difference between Affirmative Action and Reparations. Whats your take on that MrLars?
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Saying that inferior candidates are given entry through AA is a gross oversimplification of the issue. Inferiority based on what? Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased.
Clarence Thomas wouldn't be where he is today without AA. Oops, I'm arguing the wrong point there.
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inferior based on the fact that if they where white men with the exact same qualifications they wouldn't have the job
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Yeah Lazs, that could be argued. It could also be argued that it's tantamount to saying that the privileged have the right ensure that they continue to be the privileged by having access to the best education... earned or not.
Lets say I geeked out and studied real hard and scored super-duper high on my SAT exam, and gained admission to Yale. Do you think I'm going to resent the blacks sitting next to me who scored far lower, any more than I'd resent the white bozos sitting beside me whose only entrance requirement was their daddy's money?
I just find it incredibly ironic that Bush chose the University of Michigan as the place to step into the affirmative action fray. He says their program "rewards prospective students based solely on their race". True enough. But he was rewarded a Yale education based solely on wealth. In neither of these cases is actual bona fide merit involved.
Again - I just don't think it's his fight.
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MT... "Clarence Thomas wouldn't be where he is today without AA.".... is this true?
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nash... I believe that the amount of privilidged that get into schools with no academic merit is far below that of even say...athletes. I have no p[roblem with poor people getting into schools. Isimply want them to be qualified. I think that we are hurting ouselves if we don't allow gifted students in. Or, conversly, if we waste space on the usleless who are likely to drop out in any case.
mt... yes... by testing. The testing is suppossed to reflect real life skills. If the persons skills are so different than those of the rest of societies then we are wasting class time on him. An engineer needs engineering skills. Why would a person who couldn't grasp education in 1-12 get anything out of college? Certainly we are not helping ourselves by descriminating against talented whites.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I don't see any theoretical difference between Affirmative Action and Reparations. Whats your take on that MrLars?
When some with a priviledged background starts eleminating an avenue for one to ascend to that lofty height when he himself is the product of 'social/economic previldge' where it has been used to circumvent entry requirements in education and militrary service...I have no opinion :)
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http://www.affirmativeaction.org/
Welcome to AffirmativeAction.Org
The American Association for Affirmative Action is the association of professionals managing affirmative action, equal opportunity, diversity and other human resource programs.
Founded in 1974, the American Association for Affirmative Action (AAAA) is dedicated to the advancement of affirmative action, equal opportunity and the elimination of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, ethnic background or any other criterion that deprives people of opportunities to live and work. The organization's dedication is realized in its many activities designed to help Equal Employment Opportunity/Affirmative Action (EEO/AA) professionals be more successful and productive in their careers.
So basically the American Association for affirmative actions says that they don't want 'any' descrimination based on any reason, for example incompetence.
That's reassuring.
I think the move Bush made was the correct one, that doesn't mean it's not just the tip of the iceberg.
As far as it not being his fight, why is it that someone who benefitted wrongly along with many other people from a different form of the same thing cannot change it and make it better?
Ironic it may be, but I want him to fix stuff while he's in office not stand in a corner with his ironic cap on.
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Saying that inferior candidates are given entry through AA is a gross oversimplification of the issue. Inferiority based on what? Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased.
- MT
MT, when you say "Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased." does that also convey that the rest of the time, the testing was not racist or bias? Would you concur that if the testing was not racist or bias, affirmative action would be wrong?
Consider this. By your logic, poor young Gunthr, because he is a member of a racist society and has benifited from racism(ancestors/slave labor), should have a benifit that he has personally earned witheld from him and given to a member of the minority in question.
Also by your logic, because you have been a member of a racist society, and you have benifitted from racism(ancestors/slave labor), money that you have personally earned may be taken from you, and given to a member of the minority in question. (Reparations)
How do you feel about that?
edit: word may changed to should for clarity.
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Reparations and AA are two different animals and I refuse to bite down on that particular piece of stinky bait.
You can't level the playing field simply by casting a magic wand and saying "BIGOTRY IS ENDED". Even if the laws were changed to ensure that all are treated equally, the discrimination of the past will ensure that the power continues to be held by the formerly bigoted majority. Something has to be done to make up for the past.
The sins of the past were horrible, the cure may be painful. Bummer.
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I only asked you how you felt about Reparations... you don't have to run so fast or far from the question....
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I only asked you how you felt about Reparations... you don't have to run so fast or far from the question....
I think reperations are stupid and racist...unless I can get me some. j/k
My Irish ancestors came to America in 1848 and were immediatley indentured to pay for passage they'd already paid for on departure. Three of them fought in the Civil War with the Irish Brigade in the 88th New York.
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what if they had gotten here in chains in 1720 and lived that way till 1865 would that really be the same ? on of the single worst analogys i have ever seen.
indentured/slave
employee/livestock
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I think reperations are stupid and racist...unless I can get me some. j/k
- MrLars
Good point, MrLars. And for your service in Vietnam. (My brother and I enlisted together in 1968. He went there. I didn't.) There are other examples of the hardships of the Irish and other peoples as well.
I know the Chinese also had a tough time, although they were not taken into slavery. I confess that I don't know the entire history of the concept of Reparations in the USA. I do know about the Reparations that have been paid to Japanese Americans interned and had property seized in WWII.
However, in terms of displaced, defranchized peoples during WWII, America stands out as a pretty damned good place to be, don't you think?
But I have a feeling that we will soon know more about Reparations to black people.... because if you believe in Affirmative Action, logic dictates that you believe in Reparations, and its apparant that a significant number of people believe in Affirmative Action.
As MT would say: "The sins of the past were horrible, the cure may be painful. Bummer."
However, I disagree on very sound principle.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
what if they had gotten here in chains in 1720 and lived that way till 1865 would that really be the same ? on of the single worst analogys i have ever seen.
indentured/slave
employee/livestock
I don't want to get into a pissing contest of which is worse, afterall, some slaves had it way better than my ancestors as far as living conditions and treatment. The Irish were looked down upon even by some of the slaves of their time.
It was a bad situation for all that had no choice but to live like that or face the consequenses of flight, belittling any segment of that population because they weren't truly slaves neglects the misery of their predicament.
BTW, Slave ships and collars with chains is how a lot of the early Irish came to this country. The fact that by 1860 they were mostly free doesn't deminish the brutality of their treatment 100-120 years earlier.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
However, in terms of displaced, defranchized peoples during WWII, America stands out as a pretty damned good place to be, don't you think?
The other side of my family immigrated here after WWI from Germany, so yes I do think that way.
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But I have a feeling that we will soon know more about Reparations to black people.... because if you believe in Affirmative Action, logic dictates that you believe in Reparations, and its apparant that a significant number of people believe in Affirmative Action.
Logic schmogic. The only logical connection I can see is that AA is a sort of reparation. Why would this mean that a proponent of AA is willing to go even further?
I think it is obvious that we need to ensure that those who have been denied entry in the past are assisted to the extent that they truely have an equal opportunity.
And as I have stated before, equal opportunity doesn't exist simply because someone says "OK, no more discrimination" duh!
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Logic schmogic. The only logical connection I can see is that AA is a sort of reparation. Why would this mean that a proponent of AA is willing to go even further?
- MT
Well, I'm glad that you agree with me that AA is a kind of Reparation. You have just bitten right on the barbed hook that will soon be presented everywhere by Black attorney's and the American Civil Liberties Union, et al who will be soon demanding Reparations
(Afterall, you have awarded Reparations to the Japanese Americans who were not brought here against their will to serve in slavery to white masters. And the Japanese' suffering was only for a short time compared to Blacks who as you may have heard, "built this country")
I myself do not believe in Affirmative Action, as a US citizen in the year 2003. Therefore, I don't fall prey to the Reparations argument that is growing louder.
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Hey, Gunthr - is that you?
What are you doing slumming over here (j/k)? You actually PLAY this game?!?!
:D
Flash - ("-flash" in WB, "flash" in WWIIOL, "FLASH02" in AH)
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Flash! Good to see you here, man! :)
WARBIRDS SUCKS.
(I'm not that imposter over at Warbirds. Gunthr is my real name, unlike that other guy.) I came over from WB years ago.
Hope you stick around Flash :)
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LOL - I'll probably stick around.
Thought you were my buddy and ex-squadmate from WB.
Hehe.
Flash
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afirmative action lowered my opinion of black people who favor it.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased.
I've heard this argument before MT but I've never heard anyone explain how the testing is racist, specifically, not in vague general terms. Can you do that or are you just parroting the party line?
Also, how would you make the tests different? Remember, the tests must discriminate somehow, there aren't enough seats for everyone to go to whatever school they may want.
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Biased Tests:
SAT
Total Test-takers: approxomately 1.2 million
Of whom approximately 54% are female
Verbal Math Total
American Indian or Alaskan Native 480 483 963
Asian, Asian Amer., or Pacific Is. 498 562 1060
Black or African American 434 426 860
Mexican American 453 460 913
Puerto Rican 452 447 899
Hispanic/Latino 461 466 927
White 526 528 1054
Other 511 514 1025
Males 509 531 1040
Females 502 496 998
ALL TEST-TAKERS 505 512 1017
less than $10,000/year 427 446 873
$10,000 - $20,000/year 451 463 914
$20,000 - $30,000/year 477 482 959
$30,000 - $40,000/year 495 497 992
$40,000 - $50,000/year 506 509 1015
$50,000 - $60,000/year 514 518 1032
$60,000 - $70,000/year 521 525 1046
$70,000 - $80,000/year 527 532 1059
$80,000 - $100,000/year 539 546 1085
more than $100,000/year 559 572 1131
Now look at the coorelation of income to test scores. The higher your income, the more likely that you will be able to take SAT prep courses, attand private schools etc.
The discrepancy between male and female scores is likely due to the speed vs. sustained reading portion of the exam, and the multiple choice format. Both favor a males ability to visualize spatial relationships while failing to give credit for a female's ability to sustain read and form cognitive opinions.
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MT, do you not think the tests are designed to test for skills needed for the curriculum at the schools in question? Maybe the schools should change their curriculum? Or maybe the potential student should find a school that more closely matches his/her apptitude?
All you posted were results of the tests. Results do not demonstrate how the questions are race biased. Please continue.
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BTW MT, are you mocking Hammy with your sig? It was Newton, not Einstein that said the thing about the equal and opposite reaction.
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School entry should be a random drawing held in the last semester of Senior year.
Number of "winners" for each school equals the number of freshman slots available.
Winners go to school, losers go to work.
What could be more fair than that, eh?
If you flunk out first semester, you can't enter any more drawings. :D Off to the workforce with you!
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MT - if you keep this up, you are going to force me into the Libertarian Party out of frustration ;)
If you want to breakdown Scholastic Apptitude Test scores I'll entertain it, even though it isn't directly related to our discussion because we were talking about AA in hiring, and in any event, in hiring there are other criteria besides written tests that have been relaxed to give an advantage to minorities.
Your figures indicate a corelation between income and SAT scores. Nobody should be surprized about this. I'm just not sure what conclusion(s) you draw from this... you don't tell us, you just dangle it out there as if it means something...
Assuming your figures are correct - that the higher income family you live in, the higher your SAT scores - is true, are you actually implying that society has a responsibility to make sure that everyone has the same income, or that everyone get the same SAT scores - by artificial means if necessary? ???
Sorry. That is so wrong. What makes you think that I have a responsibility to someone because they earn less or score lower than me?
This is the crux of liberal thought on AA and Reparations.
You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it.
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MT... while basketball and child rearing are "skills".... we probly need our engineers to have math skills.
lazs
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I have quoted Hammy verbatum...
I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have quoted Hammy verbatum...
I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.
No problem or rush MT. After all, these test complaints as justification for AA have been going around for many years. Still wondering why the tests haven't been rewritten to eliminate bias rather than the scores adjusted for race.
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MT,
couldn't those scores related to income also be caused by the fact that smarter people will generally find a way to make more money? and you can argue heredity verus environment all you want but either way if your parents where smart odds are you will be too. and if they where stupid, you are probably a dumb ass. yes there are exceptions. it may not be genetic, it may be that smart parents provide a better example at home. regardless the fact that sat scores are higher in people that make more money should be no suprise.
as far as your other facts, (scores by race). the whole argument is self suporting and means nothing. as an example lets take race out of this and limit it to 2 people, you and me.
lets say I tell you I'm just as smart as you. you think I'm a dumb-ass and say "I don't think so, lets take a test and see"
so we take the test and you do well and I don't.
I say the test is biased.
you ask for evedence of the test being biased.
here is my evidence "I am just as smart as you. but you scored higher on the test. therefore the test must be biased, because I'm just as smart as you"
I'm not saying the tests aren't biased(or that they are, I don't know) but the above is the only argument I've ever heard to try and prove that they are and frankly it just doesn't hold up. if this idea of biased tests is going to continue then a better argument is required.
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If you wanted to, how can you make a test race biased?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
as far as your other facts, (scores by race). the whole argument is self suporting and means nothing. as an example lets take race out of this and limit it to 2 people, you and me.
lets say I tell you I'm just as smart as you. you think I'm a dumb-ass and say "I don't think so, lets take a test and see"
so we take the test and you do well and I don't.
I say the test is biased.
you ask for evedence of the test being biased.
here is my evidence "I am just as smart as you. but you scored higher on the test. therefore the test must be biased, because I'm just as smart as you"
You have an English speaker named Apathy.
You have an English/French speaker named Frenchy.
Apathy and Frenchy take a test in English.
It appears that they are equally smart.
They take a test in French.
Uh-oh, now it appears that Frenchy is smart and Apaphy looks not so smart.
There's your bias.
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sat's are in english right? :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possable to make the tests biased. I'm saying that the 'I didn't do as well so it must be biased' argument doesn't hold water.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
sat's are in english right? :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possable to make the tests biased. I'm saying that the 'I didn't do as well so it must be biased' argument doesn't hold water.
Okay, why do you think people of different racial backrounds aren't do as well as whites in the SATs?
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Thrawn Asians have the highest SAT scores as a group, but I guess asians are just "light" skinned enough to count as white. Its a matter of household education culture and pressure to do well in school - middle class black and mexican kids with educated parents prolly do as well as anyone.
And frankly I have seen this work both ways with some blacks in my high school. In fact one of the most intelligent people I ever knew was this black buddy of mine back in high school, he had a quick mind, wrote well, solved problems quickly, grasped ideas immidiately was funny he had it all going for him educatinally. But he was a loser in school, he rarely attended and he was a drug dealer. Any school failing of his was not the fault of the school, he just did not live and exist in environment where school was important. And that diddlying sucked he was one hell of a guy, but he made that choice on his own - he was fully capable of doing anything - and when we talked about it he plainly said he did not care and it was not important to people around him.
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there are many things that could cause a group to do poorly in a test. even on a completely fair and unbiased test.
for me to state that I know the reason why without solid evedence would be no better than saying the tests are biased.
and again I'm not saying they aren't biased. all I'm saying is prove they are (or at least show some reasonable evidence)before using that whine
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You have an English speaker named Apathy.
You have an English/French speaker named Frenchy.
Apathy and Frenchy take a test in English.
It appears that they are equally smart.
They take a test in French.
Uh-oh, now it appears that Frenchy is smart and Apaphy looks not so smart.
There's your bias.
uh, English and French aren't races
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Okay, why do you think people of different racial backrounds aren't do as well as whites in the SATs?
You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you.
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I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.
- MT
I'm not patting myself on the back MT.
I try to be open minded - not cling to my opinions as if they're my life raft - and I salute anybody who can honestly listen to a differing point of view.
:)
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Originally posted by AKIron
uh, English and French aren't races
It's an anaolgy.
"You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you."
Incorrect, we have already proven a bias with MT's statistics.
Edit: Let me rephrase.
SAT tests are biased against non-white males. These statistics reflect this.
SAT
Total Test-takers: approxomately 1.2 million
Of whom approximately 54% are female
Verbal Math Total
American Indian or Alaskan Native 480 483 963
Asian, Asian Amer., or Pacific Is. 498 562 1060
Black or African American 434 426 860
Mexican American 453 460 913
Puerto Rican 452 447 899
Hispanic/Latino 461 466 927
White 526 528 1054
Other 511 514 1025
Males 509 531 1040
Females 502 496 998
ALL TEST-TAKERS 505 512 1017
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The statistics prove Asians have the highest scores....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The statistics prove Asians have the highest scores....
Good point.
I recommend that an Affermative Action plan be instituted immediately, to insure a more balanced SAT test
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LOL of course you do... But what does that do to prove your racist sexist test?
I think its about what one could "educational culture". I know its just an anectote but I can vouch that I have never seen somebody get as much support and pressure to do well in school as my asiain friends and schoolmates, they value education and school performance so much - its a very admirable trait.
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Statistics prove nothing of the sort. It is your interpetation of those statistics that conclude bias, perhaps erroneously. There have been several other interpretations offered here as to the reason for disparity.
It's been many many years since I took an SAT or went to college but I bet they are updated on a recurring basis. Please tell me why we cant remove the bias and offer a fair playing field for everyone. Again, you libs are the ones claiming these tests are biased.
Regarding non-english speaking testees, I'm all for administering the test in their native language though I think they'll do better in an english speaking class room if they are fluent in english.
Originally posted by Thrawn
It's an anaolgy.
"You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you."
Incorrect, we have already proven a bias with MT's statistics.
Edit: Let me rephrase.
SAT tests are biased against non-white males. These statistics reflect this.
SAT
Total Test-takers: approxomately 1.2 million
Of whom approximately 54% are female
Verbal Math Total
American Indian or Alaskan Native 480 483 963
Asian, Asian Amer., or Pacific Is. 498 562 1060
Black or African American 434 426 860
Mexican American 453 460 913
Puerto Rican 452 447 899
Hispanic/Latino 461 466 927
White 526 528 1054
Other 511 514 1025
Males 509 531 1040
Females 502 496 998
ALL TEST-TAKERS 505 512 1017
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Here's an example of some bias in SATs. And why the stats might be as they are.
"It is widely believed in many academic circles that black test takers do poorly compared to whites on the analogies section of the SAT verbal test. To our knowledge the Educational Testing Service has never released data on racial differences on particular sections of the SAT. But it is clear that over the years the analogies section has contained some cultural, if not racial, biases.
Consider the following SAT test question, an analogy that asks the student to pick the answer that best resembles the relationship between the two words in the question:
RUNNER:MARATHON
(A) envoy:embassy
(B) martyr:massacre
(C) oarsman:regatta
(D) referee:tournament
(E) horse:stable
The correct answer is (C) oarsman:regatta. For many of our readers this SAT question is a rather easy one, but maybe not so easy for an inner-city black student who has never even seen a boat, much less heard of a regatta.
In recent years The College Board has mounted painstaking efforts to ensure that culturally biased questions don't sneak into the SAT. But many observers believe that the reasoning involved in solving questions on this section of the SAT is foreign to anything that millions of black students have experienced in life or have been taught in school.
Also, many in the testing community believe that students who are coached on analogies are more likely to perform better on these types of questions which generally are not part of the standard high school curriculum. In short, test coaching may pay off more on the analogy section of the SAT than on other portions of the SAT which are normally taught as part of the high school curriculum.
Therefore, it is likely that blacks have performed more poorly than whites on the analogy section of the SAT because of financial barriers. Blacks are far less likely to have access to SAT coaching classes which can have a price tag of $800 or more. The elimination of the analogies section could therefore produce some reduction in the overall racial scoring gap on the SAT. "
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where is Miko?
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Here's an example of some bias in SATs. And why the stats might be as they are. "It is widely believed in many academic circles that black test takers do poorly compared to whites on the analogies section of the SAT verbal test. To our knowledge the Educational Testing Service has never released data on racial differences on particular sections of the SAT. But it is clear that over the years the analogies section has contained some cultural, if not racial, biases.
Consider the following SAT test question, an analogy that asks the student to pick the answer that best resembles the relationship between the two words in the question:
RUNNER:MARATHON
(A) envoy:embassy
(B) martyr:massacre
(C) oarsman:regatta
(D) referee:tournament
(E) horse:stable
The correct answer is (C) oarsman:regatta. For many of our readers this SAT question is a rather easy one, but maybe not so easy for an inner-city black student who has never even seen a boat, much less heard of a regatta.
In recent years The College Board has mounted painstaking efforts to ensure that culturally biased questions don't sneak into the SAT. But many observers believe that the reasoning involved in solving questions on this section of the SAT is foreign to anything that millions of black students have experienced in life or have been taught in school.
Also, many in the testing community believe that students who are coached on analogies are more likely to perform better on these types of questions which generally are not part of the standard high school curriculum. In short, test coaching may pay off more on the analogy section of the SAT than on other portions of the SAT which are normally taught as part of the high school curriculum.
Therefore, it is likely that blacks have performed more poorly than whites on the analogy section of the SAT because of financial barriers. Blacks are far less likely to have access to SAT coaching classes which can have a price tag of $800 or more. The elimination of the analogies section could therefore produce some reduction in the overall racial scoring gap on the SAT
- Thrawn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thrawn, there is no doubt, the oarsman/regatta question is a roadkill question. (Certainly no longer in use) I got the wrong answer too. Fire the lib "education specialist" who came up with it, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
American society does NOT have an obligation or responsibility to set aside those persons who have the low scores on the SAT, and artificially raise them.
Do you libs really want government to make laws that everyone will score the same on SATs? Where will it stop?
Don't you care what kind of society we will end up with?
Edit: Thrawn, I forgot you do not live in the USA. We can kick the issue back and forth, but I'm downrating your opinion to a degree because you don't have to live with the ultimate result of your stand on this.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
[BAmerican society does NOT have an obligation or responsibility to set aside those persons who have the low scores on the SAT, and artificially raise them.[/B]
Nah, I just think it would be, good if the questions had a little cultural bias a possible.
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I see that Thrawn has picked up the ball and is doing fine here.
I apologize for the 'pat on the back' comment Gunthr. It was uncalled for.
I think we are all missing the forest for the trees here. One of the reasons AA has been necessary is because past prejudices and lack of opportunity has placed certain groups at a disadvantage. I think that that is an unassailable point.
The rest of the story has to do with our Country's will to make it right. Simply ending "Institutional" racism isn't enough. The rules have been stacked against certain minorities for too long to ensure that access will suddenly occurr. The test bias is just a small example of the bigger picture. Here is my take on the subject in a nutshell:
1. Certain groups have not had equal access to the American dream.
2. They should
3. We should do as much as possible to correct that situation.
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in responce to the sample 'racialy biased question'.
I don't think the iner-city black kid would have any harder a time with that question than the inner-city white kid living next door to him.
it would seem that income is more of a direct coralation than race. if the tests are biased it's probably more financial than racial.
and here's the problem with AA. poor whites and poor blacks have problems gaining access to the american dream. but while the poor blacks have AA to try and help 'level the playing feild' poor whites have all the same disadvantages plus legal discrimanation of AA on top of that.
anytime someone wants to point out racial dis-advatage the use as examples some rich white kid and some poor black kid.
the fact is that a rich black atorneys kid has alot more advatages than my working class white children. in adition to the other advatages they get from gov't and private funds.
many of the advatages are blantantly racist but it's 'ok' because they help blacks.
I would be labled racist (and rightly so) if I was to start the 'united white-boy college fund' but to have a fund only available is fine.
what about the NAAWP (probably would get labled as a off-shoot of the clan)
how can anybody stand there with a straight face and say a behavior is moraly reprehensible (discrimanation) then turn around and do it yourself and say it's justified because the color of the skin of the victim is different? all while flying your 'fight racism' bumper sticker.
BTW-nobody has yet to show me an example of a racially biased question.
and how did they bias the math? the score difference seems to be even greater there.
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I see that Thrawn has picked up the ball and is doing fine here.
Well... I certainly disagree. Thrawns argument is built on clay. I do like Thrawn, though. I welcome his viewpoint. But his points are as flawed as yours.
I accept your apology MT. What you have done, I am guilty of many times over...
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thrawn... I have never been to a "regatta" or talked with an "oarsman" to my knowledge... but I do have a TV and I read everything (even the crap at the Dr's office and the dentist) I have a radio and I talk to people.
If you wish to insulate yourself from the rest of society then you will probly not only do poorly in the test but... You will no doubt have difficulty in passing any of the classes that are offered. If you are so insulated that you can't use a process of elimination to aid you in testing then probly you don't have any job skills worth having.
How do those pesky little asian fellows figure out the "regatta" thing? What about them white kids in arizona and kansas?
When I cross A bridge... I want to know that the guy who was the engineer had good math skills. I really don't care if he is good at basketball or tennis or even.... boating.
If the problem is in the public schools then fix em... get rid of em if they can't do the job. Why do we not have merit based public schools that prepare kids for higher education? Garbage in garbage out.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunthr
But his points are as flawed as yours.
Like I said, he's doing fine.
:D
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Can someone please give me an alternate hypothesis as to why, blacks score less then whites on SATs?
Lazs, I'm not sure a middle aged, white guy that lives in the country knowing what a regata has any reflection on whether a black teenager in the inner city does.
I'd be interested to know whether black students score less then white students in the same economic demographic.
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Like I said, he's doing fine.
- MT
MT, you are an expert in sound bytes that don't mean anything. Would you care to:
A. Be more specific.
B. Answer my post that you previously chose not to answer.
Here: "You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it." - Gunthr
Or, as I suspect, will you continue to run when your beliefs are challanged, or ask others to take your ineffectual part?
I'm on to you now.
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also I've yet to see an example of a racially biased question.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I'd be interested to know whether black students score less then white students in the same economic demographic.
capt. apathy, do you have an explanation for this?
“Today, even blacks whose parents have the same level of education and income as a comparable sample of whites score about 120 points lower on average,” said John Cloud in his article “Should SATs Matter?” in the March 12 edition of Time."
Black people aren't as good as white people at taking SATs.
Either the tests are biased, or the system of education, to prepare for SATs, available to black people isn't as good as that as white people.
Either way it's a racial problem.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
capt. apathy, do you have an explanation for this?
“Today, even blacks whose parents have the same level of education and income as a comparable sample of whites score about 120 points lower on average,” said John Cloud in his article “Should SATs Matter?” in the March 12 edition of Time."
Black people aren't as good as white people at taking SATs.
Either the tests are biased, or the system of education, to prepare for SATs, available to black people isn't as good as that as white people.
Either way it's a racial problem.
How you you explain rich intelligent white people's kids failing tests?
racial biased tests?
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Originally posted by Kanth
How you you explain rich intelligent white people's kids failing tests?
racial biased tests?
I was speaking in generalities. There's going to people on either end of the curve.
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IMO Thrawn the explanation for the difference in the scores isn't cultural unless by that you mean a culture that places little importance on education. Rather, it is the failure of our public school system. It is a system that will pass a kid for convenience rather than insist they meet standards. Or reduce the standards which who can deny encourages mediocrity.
The answer is not to lower standards for a particular race but rather improve the level of education for all so that everyone can achieve the so called American dream. All people want respect but respect must be earned.
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capt. apathy, do you have an explanation for this?
“Today, even blacks whose parents have the same level of education and income as a comparable sample of whites score about 120 points lower on average,” said John Cloud in his article “Should SATs Matter?” in the March 12 edition of Time."
-----------------------------------------------
probably because their parents got their jobs and education through affirmitive action.
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Originally posted by AKIron
IMO Thrawn the explanation for the difference in the scores isn't cultural unless by that you mean a culture that places little importance on education. Rather, it is the failure of our public school system. It is a system that will pass a kid for convenience rather than insist they meet standards. Or reduce the standards which who can deny encourages mediocrity.
Do you think that the larger contributing factor is that black people in the US put less importance on education or that a similar quality of education is not available to them.
Hmmm, maybe black people in the US put less importance on education, if in fact they do, because they get a lower quality of education.
The answer is not to lower standards for a particular race but rather improve the level of education for all so that everyone can achieve the so called American dream. All people want respect but respect must be earned.
Sounds great to me. I'm not sure where the money would come from to bring up inner city schools, or poorer areas in general, up to the same level as wealthier schools. Increase State tax? Federal tax?
"probably because their parents got their jobs and education through affirmitive action."
What would that have to do with anything?
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what would that have to do with anything?
_____________________________ _______
Seems simple to me. If the parents had help from AA to get their jobs and education, then they would not have to be as smart as the whites that reached the same levels in life. Therefor their kids may not be as smart (smart parents generally = smart kids). Maybe people who are not as smart do not do as well on tests.
Then again, maybe the tests are intellectually biased too.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
If the parents had help from AA to get their jobs and education, then they would not have to be as smart as the whites that reached the same levels in life.
Just because they didn't have to be as smart, does that mean they weren't as smart?
Why then are AA parents not as smart as their white counter parts?
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A lot miss the main point regarding AA...... that is that it is un-constitutional to descriminate based on race for any reason.
AA could work legally if they used another means other than race. Economic and/or demographics for instance.
But to have race quotas or to give preferential treatment based soley on race is un-constitutional and I'm sure it will be ruled as such.
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it would seem that if they where as smart, then with the help of AA then they would go farther. therefore putting them in a different group.
also not all blacks would have had to recieve help from AA, to explain your statistic. just a significant enough number to effect the study.
I wouldn't know how many of the black familys in the study recieved help from AA. it's your statistic, I'm not even sure it's acurate.
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NUKE, do you believe that all people in the US should have access to the same level of public education?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
it would seem that if they where as smart, then with the help of AA then they would go farther. therefore putting them in a different group.
also not all blacks would have had to recieve help from AA, to explain your statistic. just a significant enough number to effect the study.
I wouldn't know how many of the black familys in the study recieved help from AA. it's your statistic, I'm not even sure it's acurate.
Sorry capt. edited my previous post. I'll go and change it back.
Damnit, forgot the original wording of my post.
"it would seem that if they where as smart, then with the help of AA then they would go farther. therefore putting them in a different group. "
Who says they didn't go futher.
"also not all blacks would have had to recieve help from AA, to explain your statistic. just a significant enough number to effect the study."
Assuming they were stupider then white people, and assuming they past there stuipid genes on to their kids.
"I wouldn't know how many of the black familys in the study recieved help from AA. it's your statistic, I'm not even sure it's acurate. "
What makes leads you to believe the stats are inaccurate?
You are the one that stated that black people who gets jobs through AA are stuipider then white people. Which makes me wonder why you think they are stupider.
For that matter, why do you think black kids score less then white kids on SATs?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
NUKE, do you believe that all people in the US should have access to the same level of public education?
Yes I do, but that's not what we're talking about.
I was refering to AA being un-constitional and that to give preferential treatment or to descriminate based soley on race is not legal.
I am saying that they could instead base AA on demographic areas or financial status rather than race and it would be legal and fair.
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NUKE, would you be willing to pay more in taxes for school improvement in impovrished areas, if AA was eliminated?
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This just in:
(FWIW... it doesn't add to the debate - just newsworthy)
"Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday he disagrees with President Bush's position on an affirmative action case before the Supreme Court.
Powell, one of two black members of Bush's Cabinet, said he supports methods the University of Michigan uses to bolster minority enrollments in its undergraduate and law school programs. The policies offer points to minority applicants and set goals for minority admissions.
"Whereas I have expressed my support for the policies used by the University of Michigan, the president, in looking at it, came to the conclusion that it was constitutionally flawed based on the legal advice he received," Powell said on the CBS program "Face the Nation."
It was a rare public acknowledgment of dissent with the president and with other top White House aides."
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Originally posted by Thrawn
NUKE, would you be willing to pay more in taxes for school improvement in impovrished areas, if AA was eliminated?
Again, Im keeping to the topic of AA being un-constitutional because it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race. Care to argue that point?
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AA parents aren't less intelligent as their white counterparts they are just more likely to get a better job because of their race.
I'm wondering exactly what study materials aren't provided to blacks ? what study classes aren't they allowed to attend that the whites are allowed to attend that gives them a disadvantage?
What limits their access all over the spectrum from high to middle to low income blacks , that they are disadvantaged versus the same level of income family of white students?
what injustice is being done as far as education to these people based on race?
Originally posted by Thrawn
Why then are AA parents not as smart as their white counter parts?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Again, Im keeping to the topic of AA being un-constitutional because it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race. Care to argue that point?
Where does it say it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race.
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Originally posted by Kanth
what injustice is being done as far as education to these people based on race?
The high schools they attend are generally have less quality of education because they don't have the financial resources that other schools have.
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I've gotta say, like I always do, that I think the difference in test scores has an economic reason, rather than a racial one. Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S. than whites- and the test scores reflect this. Asians, on the other hand, are typically just as well off, if not more wealthy, than whites, and their test scores are similar.
I also think it has something to do with culture in that Asians and most wealthy white families place something of an emphasis on education and 'book smarts', whereas a poor black student may be more concerned with survival than education.
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Urchin, why are Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S.?
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Who says they didn't go further.
you did. Quote from your post-"Today, even blacks whose parents have the same level of education and income as a comparable sample of whites score about 120 points lower on average,”
"Same level of education and income as a comparative sample of whites" not further but 'same' & 'comparative'
What leads me to believe the stats are in accurate? - I don't believe they are inaccurate, but no study or info is mentioned, just a quote from some guy in Time. Not enough to prove accuracy, but I am willing to coincide that it could be true and showed you an example of how this could be explained without racially biased tests.
Quote-
You are the one that stated that black people who gets jobs through AA are stupider then white people. Which makes me wonder why you think they are stupider.
Not those blacks that get jobs through AA are stupider than whites. But that if blacks get additional points on tests when applying for jobs then for any given position the blacks in that position would generally have scored lower on the employment test to a magnitude of whatever the points awarded through AA.
For example-
A Company is hiring for 3 different positions. 1 requires a score of 90 or better on the company’s test, another requires an 80, and yet another requires a 70. The one requiring a 90 pays better and has more benefits. The 70 the least of these
Now with the help of AA blacks get an additional 10 points.
With this formula, a black man would easily get the top-paying job with a score of 89 (unless another black man scored higher) where a white man with that score wouldn't even be considered.
This man would have scored at least 1 point below the dumbest white guy to score high enough to be considered for this job.
Without AA he would have been one of the smartest to be considered for the 80 job (honestly so too). He would have earned his job fairly and would prove the stereo types wrong by being one of the smartest in his department. (Because anybody smarter would be qualified for the better job)
However, thanks to AA he gets the better paying job. And so do many others down through the company this works on every tier of the pay scale, artificially bumping up scores.
The result is that in AA companies blacks don't have to be as smart or qualified to reach the same levels as whites at the same job. If they where as smart they would be bumped up to the next level, because they'd have all the points their equals did plus the bonus AA points.
I think this is one of the things that perpetuate the stereotype of blacks not being as smart. Because in our day to day life we run into people that through the wonders of AA have been promoted to a job that is over their head.
BTW- this is not a racist thing. It is simply logic. You could substitute any group for the whites or the black in this situation and it would play out the same. I never intended nor did I ever say that blacks aren't as smart as whites. Just that thanks to AA at any given level the one who receives the help of AA didn't have to be as qualified as his co-workers
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The high schools they attend are generally have less quality of education because they don't have the financial resources that other schools have.
What does it really take for a "quality" education? I can think of nothing more than a reasonable teacher to student ratio, good books, and students that want to learn. What exactly is lacking that you're referring to?
I suggest that it isn't financial resources but attitude that is lacking and I blame it on both the parents and the school system. Can't do much about the parents but we might create an environment more conducive to learning. Private schools, schools whose future depends upon the success of their students, might turn the whole thing around, including the public school system.
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why are they more important that poor whites?
Enough to justify some sort of action based on race?
Originally posted by Thrawn
Urchin, why are Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S.?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Where does it say it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race.
The 14th ammendment guarantee's equal protection under the law. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 Title II and VII of which forbid racial discrimination in "public accommodations" and race and sex discrimination in employment, respectively.
Basically the 14th ammendment gave equal protection and treatment for all under the law.
Therefore, the Civil Rights Act would need to be applied to everyone equally.
Just wait till the Supreme Court rules to see what they say I guess.
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Originally posted by AKIron
What does it really take for a "quality" education? I can think of nothing more than a reasonable teacher to student ratio, good books, and students that want to learn. What exactly is lacking that you're referring to?
Yeah, but inner city schools don't have the anywhere near the same teacher to student ratios or good books.
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Here comes Powell,
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20030120/D7OLLCE00.html
some good quotes on a later note:
In an unusual Sunday night announcement, the White House said Bush's budget proposal for the upcoming fiscal year would increase funding by 5 percent for grants to historically black colleges, universities, graduate programs and Hispanic education institutions.
A White House spokesman declined to say Sunday night why the black and Hispanic grant programs are acceptable, when the University of Michigan admission system is not.
:D
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What's a "good" student to teacher ratio?
I want to see if I had that advantage.. I'm thinking I didn't. Books? Old as the hills.
Can I get reparations?
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Okay but inner city schools doesn't say anything about race.
Any inner city kid should have access to any benefits given to their peers.
I'm still not seeing a race relationship here in inequities perpetrated by our system of education.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, but inner city schools don't have the anywhere near the same teacher to student ratios or good books.
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The student to teacher ratio should be based on the grade and possibly even subject. Seems to me the schools I went to (I went to a lot of schools, 14 of 'em through highschool) typically had 25-40 students per class.
I know that some schools do a lot worse, 50+ per class and it's not just minorities that suffer this. That's one of the reasons I'd like to see parents have a choice about which school to send their kids.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
- MT
MT, you are an expert in sound bytes that don't mean anything. Would you care to:
A. Be more specific.
B. Answer my post that you previously chose not to answer.
Here: "You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it." - Gunthr
Or, as I suspect, will you continue to run when your beliefs are challanged, or ask others to take your ineffectual part?
I'm on to you now.
OK, I'll play. I admit it. We owe a debt to those who have been wronged by our illegal or immoral institutions. That debt may be in the form of additional asistance in gaining entrance to an advanced education.
I have never run from my beliefs, and I would like to point out that your posts have yet to prove any point at all except possibly to accentuate your personal passions.
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Expert: Aptitude tests are biased (http://www.freep.com/news/education/naffirm7_20010207.htm)
Gifted Minority Student Left Behind (http://www.abetterchance.org/News_Articles/99.00_articles/art-gifted2.8.00.htm)
Biased Hiring Drug Tests (http://www.exodusnews.com/editorials/editorial-043.htm)
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OK, I'll play. I admit it. We owe a debt to those who have been wronged by our illegal or immoral institutions. That debt may be in the form of additional asistance in gaining entrance to an advanced education. - MT
Now, instead of running away, you are trying to sneak past me, :D
You started running when I asked you how you feel about Reparations - you said it was a "kind of affirmative action" - but you never addressed my question about how you felt about it. All you did is post the following in response:
I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.
Now that you have returned, will you please answer the original question?
How do you feel about reparations?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, you also wrote "I have never run from my beliefs, and I would like to point out that your posts have yet to prove any point at all except possibly to accentuate your personal passions."
- My answer to that is, I only set out to share my point of view and to hopefully persuade. I also like to think that the discussion helps people decide how they really think about issues, rather than only quoting opinions of others. Its good to know how you feel about these issues, and why, because the issues will be before us very soon, if not already.
-
MT,
If link one is correct, this expert witness is charging that tests are designed in keeping the questions that certain types of people fail to answer and getting rid of questions that they do well on.
But they all have the same study materials, if certain type of people don't understand certain concepts and those concepts must be understood in order for them to pass then I'd say they need to learn those concepts.
In the end if the person cannot understand then why should they be passing the test? Because there aren't enough of their race or gender in that field? maybe it's because not enough of their race or gender understand these concepts and therefore do not belong in these fields.
Lets say for example that women are worse at math so they are failing the math portions of tests..are those tests then biased against women? Nope, women just don't get the concepts..and probably shouldn't be in that field if they can't understand it, if they still want to be in a field they aren't naturally good at they had better bust their bellybutton and study up so they can pass the test requirements.
As long as these people aren't being denied anything that the other kids are studying, I don't see any unequal playing field here based on gender or race.
In order for me personally to believe that people who cannot pass tests deserve to get into college as much as the ones who do pass, I need to see where these people are being denied access based on gender or race to the information the other kids are getting.
link 2 and link 3 I won't even go into.
some kid misses his test entirely and some woman who is living with a guy who smokes dope are getting off topic for me.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Expert: Aptitude tests are biased (http://www.freep.com/news/education/naffirm7_20010207.htm)
Gifted Minority Student Left Behind (http://www.abetterchance.org/News_Articles/99.00_articles/art-gifted2.8.00.htm)
Biased Hiring Drug Tests (http://www.exodusnews.com/editorials/editorial-043.htm)
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Now you misquote me...
I said that AA was a form of reparation, not that reparation was AA. All trout are fish, not all fish are trout.
So in that limited context I guess the form of reparations known as Affirmative Action is a good thing in most cases.
Now tell me. Have we wronged certain minorities in this Country? Do the affects of those past mistakes still linger? Should we do something about it?
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No, they don't.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Do the affects of those past mistakes still linger?
-
Originally posted by Kanth
No, they don't.
Yes they do.
-
I said that AA was a form of reparation, not that reparation was AA. All trout are fish, not all fish are trout.
MT - again, my question was:
"How do you feel about Reparations?
I'm talking about the cash reparations allegedly due to black people because of past discrimination. Please answer.
-
Show me.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Yes they do.
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Read your expert MT. His conclusion was that a test cannot be made that is unbiased. Complete malarky imo.
-
Link 1.
The guy is saying that the tests discriminate against those who did not go to prep schools. I didn't go, my kids didn't go. It is again not a race issue but an economic issue. So, the tests are economically biased. Maybe if we are going to do AA it should be based on how much your parents made not the color of your skin.
AA is more racially biased than these tests and after 3 pages of posts, I have yet to see one example of a racially biased question.
Link 2.
He was 'left out' because he didn't take the test at the proper time. Was he denied the right to take that test in junior high? There is no evidence of that in the post. The only way this would be a race issue is if he was denied the right to take the test in junior high because he was a minority.
Seems to me as just another example of some whinny guy blaming his race as an excuse for everything going wrong in his life. A little more personal responsibility would go a lot farther than AA in getting minorities their share of the 'American dream'
Link 3.
This one is stupid. She flunked because she was hanging out while her husband burnt one every night. When I had to take my first drug test (to work a nuke plant) I left the room when people started getting high. I needed the job, I needed the money, I got off my bellybutton and left the area when people where doing things that could jeopardize it.
If the test is flawed and giving, back false positives then junk the test. Give all that fit the profile of being likely to get a false positive a chance to retest. (Or would that be racial profiling? That’s bad, right?)
As far as reparations go- most of us (unless you are extremely wealthy) have somewhere throughout our history as a people been toejam on by one group or another. The difference is we got over it.
In the first link the Jews where mentioned. They are a fine example. Their history makes the 'black experience' look like a walk in the park.
Hundreds of years of slavery.
Wandering without a home, as a group, for 40 years.
Their home taken over
New people moved in
Divided up and scattered throughout the Roman Empire
Hated and persecuted in many countries for thousands of years
Nazi’s
The holocaust
Suicide bombers
Some of the smartest people on earth. And I think Einstein was before any form of AA
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
Link 1.
The guy is saying that the tests discriminate against those who did not go to prep schools. I didn't go, my kids didn't go. It is again not a race issue but an economic issue. So, the tests are economically biased. Maybe if we are going to do AA it should be based on how much your parents made not the color of your skin.
I just do not get it. You guys are missing the whole point of testing.
The purpose of the the test (whether for school or a job) is to pick the best candidate, not to spread some idiotic "social justice" and right all wrongs real or perceived. Does not matter why you fail. All it means that you have to work harder than some other person to achieve the same goal.
Even I could be taught to play basketball, but I know I'd never be good at it so I stay out and do something else.
I want my fireman to be strong, surgeon to be educated and skilled, comedian funny and a mailman friendly. Couldn't care less about the race or any other attributes for that matter.
I drives me nuts to see all these boot camp documentaries where you can see woman tested/graded on a different scale just to let them pass.
How the f* will we tell the Iraqis to cut them some slack in combat?
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Capt. apathy - I can only assume that you didn't read the entire text of all three links. There are some valid points in all three regarding missed opportunities regarding racial equality and opportunity.
From #1 - Martin Shapiro, a testing specialist and psychology professor at Emory University in Atlanta, testified that using race as one of many factors in admissions is the only way colleges can offset biases in standardized tests.
and
To maintain consistency with past questions, if the group that historically scores well performs well on a pretest, the question is kept. If a group that historically scores poorly does well on a pretest question, that item is tossed out, Shapiro said.
Thus perpetuating bias.
From #2 - Between 1978 and 1997, Hispanic students identified as gifted increased from 5.2 percent to 8.6 percent nationally, according to the U.S. Department of Education. The overall Hispanic student population went from 6.8 percent to 14.3 percent. Nationally, blacks have not fared any better. Between 1978 and 1997, black students identified as gifted dropped from 10.3 percent to 7.3 percent. The overall black student population increased from 15.7 percent to 17 percent.
and
Ford said the most important part of identifying gifted students - the referral stage - is hampered by teachers' inability to deal with culturally and linguistically diverse children.
From #3 - Eight citizens from Chicago have filed complaints of racial discrimination against the Chicago Police Department because of hair testing which gives more false positives with black hair,
and
A 1995 U. S. Navy study shows that the dark coarse hair of African Americans, Hispanics, and Asians is more likely to absorb drug residues from the environment (second hand smoke) and then test positive even if the individual never used drugs.
and
A 1997 National Institute for Drug Abuse hair test study showed a "significant ethnic bias" in their tests for cocaine. In African American hair there is a significant amount of melanin which acts as a binding site for cocaine. That means, with equal exposure, we don't pass and they (whites) do.
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That drives me nuts too, it's total bs.
Originally posted by mietla
I drives me nuts to see all these boot camp documentaries where you can see woman tested/graded on a different scale just to let them pass.
How the f* will we tell the Iraqis to cut them some slack in combat?
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I did read them. The points you posted-
'Martin Shapiro, a testing specialist and psychology professor at Emory University in Atlanta, testified that using race as one of many factors in admissions is the only way colleges can offset biases in standardized tests."
It's just another man’s opinion that the tests are biased. I know you think they are biased. I know thrawn thinks they are biased. Apparently so does this guy. I have heard this argument repeatedly for years. The problem is that nobody can explain to me exactly how they are biased or provide a legitimate example of a biased question. The only 'proof' I've seen is circular logic applied to statistics. i.e. blacks score lower because tests are biased. We know the tests are biased because blacks score lower.
Again, I have a huge problem with this because
1. Black scores are actually farther apart on math, which would seem to be the hardest to bias against one culture, let alone a race.
2. Nobody can produce a sample question that is racially biased. I have seen how some could be economically biased, or even culturally biased. However, I've seen no examples of racial bias. At this point I don't even care if it is included in the SAT's just provide me an example of any racially biased question.
And as far as the drug testing goes, I really doubt that anybody went out of their way to design a test that screwed over blacks. If this test is flawed in this way, it should be abandoned
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
And as far as the drug testing goes, I really doubt that anybody went out of their way to design a test that screwed over blacks. If this test is flawed in this way, it should be abandoned
I know of one test that was, that's right, the SATs.
Here's some information on the tests creator.
The SAT's inventor wrote, "American intelligence is declining, and will proceed...as the racial admixture becomes more and more extensive"
"The SAT was born in the 1920s-the product of a growing desire by American educators, led by Harvard president James Bryant Conant, to open up their universities to the best students across the country.
The SAT's inventor wrote, "American intelligence is declining, and will proceed...as the racial admixture becomes more and more extensive"
America's elite universities-Eastern establishments such as Harvard, Yale and Princeton-selected students who were the sons of previous graduates or had attended New England's finest boarding schools. Conant envisioned a "natural aristocracy," taking the place of the old elite.
Lemann writes of Conant's ideas, "The new elite's essential quality, the factor that would make its power deserved where the old elite's had been merely inherited, would be brains."
Conant asked young Harvard dean Henry Chauncey to create a program that would allow Harvard to select the brightest students from across the country.
Chauncey soon met Princeton psychologist Carl Brigham, whom Lemann calls "an ardent eugenicist." Brigham concluded in his 1922 book, A Study of American Intelligence, that "American intelligence is declining, and will proceed with an accelerating rate as the racial admixture becomes more and more extensive."
Conant and Chauncey discovered that Brigham had already created a test to judge the academic potential of students, the Scholastic Aptitude Test, or SAT. Brigham's earliest version of the SAT, similar to IQ tests he had previously developed for the Army, contains questions remarkably similar to today's.
Lemann writes, "A few samples from the original version convey the SAT's inimitable way of being simple and confusing at the same time, its tendency to induce uncontrollable, anxious second-guessing on the part of the taker."
Brigham had begun administering the SAT to test groups in 1926, and had concluded by 1933, when he met Chauncey, that his SAT reliably predicted academic success. Conant and Chauncey seized upon this conclusion, began administering the test to students who wished to win scholarships at Harvard, and convinced many of their Ivy League colleagues to follow suit.
Soon after Carl Brigham developed the test which Conant and Chauncey used, he began to question the wisdom of using the SAT to admit college students. In an unpublished manuscript which Lemann unearthed, Brigham wrote that the standardized testing movement was based on "one of the most glorious fallacies in the history of science, namely that the tests measured native intelligence purely and simply without regard to training or schooling. The test scores very definitely are a composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English and everything else."
http://journalism.fas.nyu.edu/pubzone/race_class/edu-matt3.htm
mietla said:
"The purpose of the the test (whether for school or a job) is to pick the best candidate, not to spread some idiotic "social justice" and right all wrongs real or perceived. Does not matter why you fail. All it means that you have to work harder than some other person to achieve the same goal. "
What makes you think the SAT is a good system for choosing the best candidate for university?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What makes you think the SAT is a good system for choosing the best candidate for university?
I'm not an expert in this area so I can't authoritatively say that they are, just like you can't authoritatively say that they aren't.
At the same time, I'm sure that it would be a very difficult task to actually design a test which detects a color of the skin.
My point was a bit different though. I don't want to argue the test itself, since as I said I'm not competent to do so. Posting some questionable links to views presented by some other (probably as incompetent as myself) people does not persuade me (MT's links are spectacularly weak).
Let me clarify my point.
If the test can be proven to be biased, change it, but whether you change it or not it has to be applied to all participants equally and has to be demanding in order to spread the scores and make it easy to eliminate everyone but the best. Not some "everybody passes" crap. Blind test and no extra points for any reason. A top number of takers pass, the rest fail. Get a tutor, go back to school and try again if you want, but no lolipops for just showing up and being a member of a particular group.
I saw some kind of clip showing women trying out to be fire(wo)men. I scared the hell out of me. They could not hold on to the firehose, and one of them was almost crushed by a ladder. If accepted, they themselves would present a hazard on a job.
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mietla, why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?
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"American intelligence is declining, and will proceed...as the racial admixture becomes more and more extensive"
so the man who invented the SAT had racist ideas.
That does not mean that the test is racist. In highschool I worked in a restaurant, one of the cooks was racist (probably a card carry ‘n clan member) but I didn't find anything racist about the food he was cooking.
Again for about the dozenth time SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF A RACIALY BIASED QUESTION. This mythical beast is yet to be sighted in 3 pages of posts
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Mietla.
I agree. If the racial apologists don't like the SATS, design another one. They've certainly had the time. I wonder what it would look like? Would it resemble the language of commerce and science? I wonder.
Sometimes I feel that people take sides as if picking which football team to root for. And from that point on, tune out any ideas contrary to their team's.
Like MT?
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question MT. I will wait as long as it takes...
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
[BAgain for about the dozenth time SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF A RACIALY BIASED QUESTION. This mythical beast is yet to be sighted in 3 pages of posts [/B]
Why do you think that a test has to have racially biased questions in order to be racially biased?
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because the tests are made up of questions,
no biased questions=no biased test
SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF A RACIALLY BIASED QUESTION
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Why do you think that a test has to have racially biased questions in order to be racially biased?
Unless they automatically deduct 400 points if you fill in any circle other than "caucasian" for race, this statement makes no sense.
-SW
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
[BAgain for about the dozenth time SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF A RACIALY BIASED QUESTION. This mythical beast is yet to be sighted in 3 pages of posts [/B]
Ya know when liberals get together and proclaim the inequities of the white man's world they find that they all agree so it must be true. They then take these self-serving delusions as fact. Let someone disagree and it is only perceived as further proof that "the man" wants only to further oppress the black man.
I'm not saying that there isn't prejudice and discrimination. I am saying that the way to earn prestige and respect is through effort and not lame excuses. If I were black I would find a system that claims I can't compete to be very repugnant.
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Originally posted by AKIron
If I were black I would find a system that claims I can't compete to be very repugnant.
If you were black I imgaine that you would have a much different view on alot of things.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
mietla, why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?
Honestly? I have no idea.
It seems to me that it would not be difficult to really prove/disprove any hypothesis of why this is happening. After all we know how to reliably extract a useful signal from the noise of much larger magnitude.
The problem is that this is an explosive issue and certain theories can not be even submitted, regardless of how probable they are.
Certain outcomes are simply "not acceptable" in certain (PC) circles, does not matter whether true or not. As a result most people don't want to touch this topic with a 10 ft pole. Those who do are not critiqued for their work, they are spat on and discredited.
The heliocentric system was rejected for so long not because noone came up with this idea? It was simply "unacceptable" because it questioned an established social order of that time.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Why do you think that a test has to have racially biased questions in order to be racially biased?
Unless they automatically deduct 400 points if you fill in any circle other than "caucasian" for race, this statement makes no sense.
-SW
Sure it does. Lets make up a test with no racially biased questions. No lets have white people generally get a better education for this test.
Hey, check it out, white people do better at this test.
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And don't think you've "suckered" me into this. I knew exactly where this is going and I know what's next.
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Then the test isn't biased, the public education system is to blame for that one.
-SW
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Originally posted by mietla
Certain outcomes are simply "not acceptable" in certain (PC) circles, does not matter whether true or not. As a result most people don't want to touch this topic with a 10 ft pole. Those who do are not critiqued for their work, they are spat on and discredited.
I haven't spat on anyone yet. But I have noticed everyone stay away from one possible reason. Black people are generally stupider then white people. And white people are generally stupider then Asians.
Of course in order for that to be true then the SAT statistics would have to carry over to their equivalants in other countries.
Or the problem is with the differences in the way people are trained for the test.
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why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?
one expaination for this could be that many white kids (myself included) never took the SAT's. I didn't take them because as a realist I knew that with my mediocre grades and my parents lack of funding, there was no realistic way I could have gone to college anyway. if I'd had the programs available to me that blacks do, I would have taken them, on the chance I could have gone.
basicly what I'm saying here is maybe the whites who would have scored lower and brought the average down for us didn't bother to take the tests because there is no 'help' for under funded white kids.
but the black kids know that the gov't, naacp, united negro college fund, and many other racist organisation are there to help them. so they give it a shot, if they score decent they get a shot at college.
I used the time my freinds where taking the test to go look for work.
I don't know if this is the reason for the lower scores but it makes more sense than biased test when nobody can produce a biased question.
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Originally posted by mietla
And don't think you've "suckered" me into this. I knew exactly where this is going and I know what's next.
Congratulations, you win a cookie.
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I am going to ask some racially biased questions.........
1. What does 2x2 equal?
2. What is the function of an adverb?
3. what is 10% of 100?
4. The Moon Orbits the Earth ( true or false)
5. What is the square root of 16?
6. What is the main difference between a mammal and fish
7. Name all the known planets in our solar system
8. Name the minimum requirments for a complete sentence.
9. What is a light year?
10. How many states does the United States have?
Can you see how I slanted all of my questions based on the need for an answer based on fact? :)
I deliberatley biased my questions to rule out people that didnt know the anwers.. .... what a concept
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Capt. Ap.
Well, at least you will acknowledge that there are experts in the field that believe the testing is biased, and that there are some statistics that indicate that there is a racial discrepency in test scores.
If the above is true, then why wait for someone on this board to provide you with clear cut evidence? If you are interested then I'm sure you will find the examples you are seeking. Here are some specifics though:
from http://www.fairtest.org/facts/genderbias.htm
it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."
and
Even the test-maker admits that high school grades predict first-year college grades better than ACT scores do. In fact, adding the ACT to the high school record does not significantly improve predictions.
Colleges that have made the SAT I optional report that their applicant pools are more diverse and that there has been no drop off in academic quality.
And here is just one example of a racially biased question -
STRAWBERRY:RED
(A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown (C) grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow
This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been "flagged" and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997).
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I haven't spat on anyone yet.
I'm not accusing you of this. I was not referring to you and me exchangeing our opinions.
I was referring to researchers who work in this field and publish un-PC findings. Everyone's work is a subject of scrutiny and critique. If it is wrong, tear it apart and show the faulty logic. That's the way it works. Instead, personal attacks and name calling are used in order to discredit the work not as being wrong/faulty, but as "coming from this guy who we know is...", and therefore not even worth the review.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?
one expaination for this could be that many white kids (myself included) never took the SAT's. I didn't take them because as a realist I knew that with my mediocre grades and my parents lack of funding, there was no realistic way I could have gone to college anyway. if I'd had the programs available to me that blacks do, I would have taken them, on the chance I could have gone.
I don't know. You chances of going to University as a white person was better then your chances if you were black.
And thank god for the scholarships. No only does a black student have to deal with a generally poorer quality of education. They also have do deal with the fact that they are generally coming from a poorer back round.
-
And here is just one example of a racially biased question -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STRAWBERRY:RED
(A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown (C) grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow
This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been "flagged" and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How exactly is that racially biased? What if I grew up in South America as a white but didn't know that lemmons could be yellow, does that discriminate against whites?
What does race have to do with the question? The question may have more than one correct answer, but that dosnt make it a racial question.
Lots of questions on tests can have that element of inaccuracy..... and I have seen many . I have seen questions that have more than one correct answer. Does that mean I was discriminated by a racial question?
Use your head ..........
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Black people are generally stupider then white people. And white people are generally stupider then Asians.
For this you'd have to resort to IQ tests. SAT's test your knowledge not IQ. IQ test does the opposite, it tests your intelligence not the education/knowledge.
IQand education are (almost) orthogonal.
It is possible to be an ignorant genius, just as it is possible to be an educated dim wit ( to some extent of course).
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Originally posted by mietla
Instead, personal attacks and name calling are used in order to discredit the work not as being wrong/faulty, but as "coming from this guy who we know is...", and therefore not even worth the review.
Gotcha.
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seems that that question is more biased by where you live than your race.
for example a white kid from the same area would be just as likely to get the question wrong. (so the question would be equaly biased against him)
then in an effort to make things 'equal' AA would give bonus points to hispanic kids.
the end result is that thanks to AA
1. hispanic kids from that area have the bias against them nutralised. (wtg AA)
2. hispanic kids from other who got the question right got bonus points they didn't deserve (to bad for everybody else because giving one group points they don't deserve in effect takes points from others) discrimanation for all others including those who where screwed by the original question. AA has now screwed more people than it helped
3. the white kid from that area not only got screwed by the first question but again by AA. in other words doubling the bias.
so much for AA doing more good than harm
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I can see them now.....
"Hey, This question about lemons..... I bet we can weed out some Hispanics with it.." Yeah, good idea, no hispanic would know that a lemmon can be yellow....lets use it"
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Originally posted by mietla
For this you'd have to resort to IQ tests. SAT's test your knowledge not IQ. IQ test does the opposite, it tests your intelligence not the education/knowledge.
Thanks.
"IQ and Race
The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense
"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence. An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ.
The research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ, which has been used to support the notion that some races are inferior to others."
More interesting reading on this topic.
http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html
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Originally posted by NUKE
I can see them now.....
"Hey, This question about lemons..... I bet we can weed out some Hispanics with it.." Yeah, good idea, no hispanic would know that a lemmon can be yellow....lets use it"
Even if it wasn't placed there on purpose, does that make it less racially biased?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Gotcha.
Gotcha?... Gotcha on what?
That was my line in a next round :)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Even if it wasn't placed there on purpose, does that make it less racially biased?
Tell me how it is a racially biased question THrawn?
Think hard.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
s
so much for AA doing more good than harm
Your analogy didn't show that AA does more harm then good. It's just an example were in one case it does harm.
In fact Univerities that us AA have shown an increase in diversity on their campuses. But still not proportional to the population of the US.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Mietla.
I agree. If the racial apologists don't like the SATS, design another one. They've certainly had the time. I wonder what it would look like? Would it resemble the language of commerce and science? I wonder.
Sometimes I feel that people take sides as if picking which football team to root for. And from that point on, tune out any ideas contrary to their team's.
Like MT?
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question MT. I will wait as long as it takes...
The "new" SAT is slated to start in 2005.
Hello pot this is kettle. I posted a racialy biased question, One that was proven to be racially biased, based upon the test scores of white and hispanic students on that particular question. Yet you "experts" "Fail to see the bias". Even the test makers thought it was biased and removed it... sheesh!
This thread isn't about reparations Gunthr. If you want to discuss that then start a new one.
-
MT.
I'm still waiting for your answer:
How do you feel about Cash Reparations for past discrimination that black people have suffered in America?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Sure it does. Lets make up a test with no racially biased questions. No lets have white people generally get a better education for this test.
Hey, check it out, white people do better at this test.
There ya have it. It's not biased testing. That's a lie that only perpetuates the problem. Apparently white people get a better education. Let's fix the problem at the root. Vouchers are the most sure fire way to do that imo.
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The "new" SAT is slated to start in 2005.
Hello pot this is kettle. I posted a racialy biased question, One that was proven to be racially biased, based upon the test scores of white and hispanic students on that particular question. Yet you "experts" "Fail to see the bias". Even the test makers thought it was biased and removed it... sheesh!
This thread isn't about reparations Gunthr. If you want to discuss that then start a new one.
I will debate you on that point MT.
How is the question racially biased?
Is it biased against Hispanics born and raised in the US? Or is it biased against white people raised in Mexico?
How does race figure in the equation?
Use your IQ and lets argue this point....I will win
-
MT- unfortunately those people are complete idiots and failed to realise it was an association of geography and not race that would make that question unanswerable by people of that region.
You don't have to be hispanic to be from South America, just like you don't have to be black to be from Africa.
-SW
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Thanks.
again, thanks for what? You act as you cought me in some kind of trap.
You are citing someone's opinion as if it was a fact. It isn't.
"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence. An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ. [/url]
Hehe, that was my intended gotcha in this round. :) I suspected that you or someone else will bring this into play.
I disagree completely.
Musical genius is just that a musical genius. Fantastic memory is again, just that, a fantastic memory. Same for the rest of his "intelligences". It's crap. How can you call someone intelligent just because he can play an instrument, play basketball or be a good mechanic?
The guy is trying to muddle waters by saying that since everybody has "some" talent, therefore everybody is "equally intelligent". Utter Nonsense.
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Originally posted by AKIron
There ya have it. It's not biased testing. That's a lie that only perpetuates the problem. Apparently white people get a better education. Let's fix the problem at the root. Vouchers are the most sure fire way to do that imo.
I never said the there weren't biased questions. I just pointed out how a test could be biased without the questions being biased. Although I agree completely that the disparaty in education is a much larger problem and you could kill two birds with one stone.
How do school boards get their money in the US?
-
IQ tests measure a good range of mental abilities.
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Originally posted by mietla
again, thanks for what? You act as you cought me in some kind of trap.
It was an honest appreciation for your explanation. I'm not playing games.
EDIT: PS, when I posted "Gotcha" I ment it as "I understand you."
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
IQ tests measure a good range of mental abilities.
Which mental abilities does it messure?
-
Thrawn,
Why won't MT answer my question about how he feels regarding Reparations (cash payouts to black people who have been discriminated in the past)?
He earlier implied that you do a good job speaking for him. Would you speak for him now, please?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
It was an honest appreciation for your explanation. I'm not playing games.
EDIT: PS, when I posted "Gotcha" I ment it as "I understand you."
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
ok, thanks then... (I guess) :)
You know a person get very sceptical and suspicious on these boeards.
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It makes it not racially biased at all.
It's biased against people not from yellow-lemon land, regardless of race.
immigrants, foreigners, citizens who grew up elsewhere.
Has nothing to do with race tho has to do with locale.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Even if it wasn't placed there on purpose, does that make it less racially biased?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Which mental abilities does it messure?
Take a mensa test and find out.
logic, deduction, spacial and abstract thought, association, etc
-
And while you are at it Thrawn, please ask MT if he has ever personally been a victim of Affirmative Action, would you?
Somehow, I think its important.
-
Originally posted by Kanth
It makes it not racially biased at all.
It's biased against people not from yellow-lemon land, regardless of race.
immigrants, foreigners, citizens who grew up elsewhere.
Has nothing to do with race tho has to do with locale.
Great, so the question is even worse then we thought for messuring a students ability to do well in University. It excludes EVERYONE who has never heard of a yellow levmon or is used to lemons of a different colour.
Now who do you think is generally able to recognise a yellow lemon, white people or non-white people?
mietla
There are as many definition for intelligence as there is psycologists.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Great, so the question is even worse then we thought for messuring a students ability to do well in University. It excludes EVERYONE who has never heard of a yellow levmon or is used to lemons of a different colour.
Now who do you think is generally able to recognise a yellow lemon, white people or non-white people? [/QUOT
Maybe we should only let US citizens of 10 years or more enter our universities then..... problem solved.
-
people who have lived in yellow-lemon land long enough to qualify to go to a college as a resident.
:)
which also cuts their tuition btw, since most countries dollar except a few has a dollar what is worth less than the US dollar.
that's not racially biased either.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Now who do you think is generally able to recognise a yellow lemon, white people or non-white people?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Maybe we should only let US citizens of 10 years or more enter our universities then..... problem solved.
But it's not. There still is a disproportionate number of white people in universities compared to black people.
That is, after all, one of the reasons AA exists in the first place.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
But it's not. There still is a disproportionate number of white people in universities compared to black people.
That is, after all, one of the reasons AA exists in the first place.
What should we do about the disproportionate number of blacks in pro sports? Maybe we could have AA for whites that can't phsyically make the grade so they are able to play .
-
But it's only a problem when it's due the school not letting in blacks because of their race or hispanics or women for their gender for that matter.
Just like we have football teams that have a disproportionate number of blacks but that's not a problem because the folks on the team were picked because they play well, they passed their tests.
Originally posted by Thrawn
But it's not. There still is a disproportionate number of white people in universities compared to black people.
That is, after all, one of the reasons AA exists in the first place.
-
Damnit Nuke..you're too fast for me, I'l wait for a slump.
-
can't have that nuke anything that balances an 'injustice' against whites is racist. if it helps blacks it's just good clean fun.
btw- MT, unless hispanics have a genetic deffect that causes them not to see yellow when it's on a lemon, then your question is not racialy biased.
and the 'proof' you gave that it was is garbage.
if for example what if there was a question
2+2=
a. 3 b. 4 c. 5 d. 15
if a large percentage of blacks chose c. 5, would that mean the question is racialy biased or would it just mean that those blacks who missed that question needed to study more math?
again you are using circular logic. hipanics didn't do well on that question because it was biased. the question is biased because hispanics didn't do well with that question.
now it was on the other hand quite easy to see a regional bias to that question. It shouldn't be hard for you to show a question with an equally clear racisl bias, if one exists.
-
Do you think that there are a disproportionate number of whites in most pro sports because of racial reasons?
(On a personal note, OH! Poor opressed white race, is the black man keeping you down? :D )
-
thrawn,
no I'm ok with acepting that maybe there are just more blacks who play well enough to go pro.
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
thrawn,
no I'm ok with acepting that maybe there are just more blacks who play well enough to go pro.
Do you think that black people get any sort of advantage compared to white people in this field?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you think that there are a disproportionate number of whites in most pro sports because of racial reasons?
(On a personal note, OH! Poor opressed white race, is the black man keeping you down? :D )
No, it's a white man not being racist. Merit is merit.
-
no, but I don't think whites get any sort of racial advantage in employment or education either.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you think that black people get any sort of advantage compared to white people in this field?
You just shot yourself and your argument down..
Weather you realise it or not.
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
no, but I don't think whites get any sort of racial advantage in employment or education either.
Are you saying that racism against blacks no longer plays a factor in optaining employment, getting promotions or obtaining education?
If so, what leads you to believe this?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
You just shot yourself and your argument down..
Weather you realise it or not.
No YOU did.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
No YOU did.
explain Thrawn
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you think that black people get any sort of advantage compared to white people in this field?
I have to jump in here also. Isn't that the very basis for your claim that SATs are biased? Proof that SATs are racially biased is that minorities score lower. I could use the same argument that pro basketball discriminates against white men because of the disproportionate number of black men therein.
The real problem here is honesty and without it the problem will probably never be solved.
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Dudes, this is pretty simple. As has been pointed out many times before, it's not the race that matters, but cultural and socio-economic background.
So one can argue that a certain 'race' is more prone to having a specific socio-economic cultural background and thus should benefit from AA. Then again, a member of a different race could have the same background and be discriminated against.
Seems the best way is to give extra points based on cultural and socio-economic background. If something must be done at all.
The fact that there has been discrimination in the past does not justify discrimination in the present or in the future.
AA is akin to going to a restaurant and being told 'go away honkey/cupcake/spic/slant-eyes, we don't want more of your kind. Your ethnic background means you're not eligible for entry'. Quite insulting.
Two wrongs don't make a right. But three does :D.
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Originally posted by NUKE
explain Thrawn
Bite me, you explain first. Mr. You-just-shot-yourself-and-your argument-down-Weather-you-realise-it-or-not.
AKIron said:
"Isn't that the very basis for your claim that SATs are biased? Proof that SATs are racially biased is that minorities score lower. I could use the same argument that pro basketball discriminates against white men because of the disproportionate number of black men therein. "
Good point.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Seems the best way is to give extra points based on cultural and socio-economic background. If something must be done at all.
Or, we could fix our educational system so that we don't have to lower our standards to the lowest common denominator.
BTW, it's two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. :p
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Originally posted by Gunthr
And while you are at it Thrawn, please ask MT if he has ever personally been a victim of Affirmative Action, would you?
Somehow, I think its important.
Yes I have. Although I tend not to see it as victimization.
I was passed over for admittance to the school of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana Ill. I am pretty sure the cut off for whitre males was somewhat higher than for minorities.
-
Are you saying that racism against blacks no longer plays a factor in optaining employment, getting promotions or obtaining education?
If so, what leads you to believe this?
****************
no, I'm not saying that it no longer exists. however, it isn't nearly as wide spread or severe as AA. and also not sanctioned by the gov't (which gives AA's racism legitamacy, much worse IMO). and blacks can fight the racism which exists in the courts on a case by case basis. when a white person says AA is discrimanating against me they are labled a racist.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Dudes, this is pretty simple. As has been pointed out many times before, it's not the race that matters, but cultural and socio-economic background.
No, it is not simple. The issue is not what causes disparities (race, culture, socio-ecomomics, region etc). The issue is whether it is a government's job to attempt to "compensate" people for them.
Some of us say yes, the government is responsible for pushing losers up and pulling winners down.
The rest of us say: no, there will always be disparities (even if the libs will push us into a full blown communism), so any attempt to equalize is futile and it will only breed resentment and class/group warfare. Gov should stay out of it.
And of course there is a Constitution (and certain laws) which AA obviously violates.
-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
And while you are at it Thrawn, please ask MT if he has ever personally been a victim of Affirmative Action, would you?
Somehow, I think its important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I have. Although I tend not to see it as victimization.
I was passed over for admittance to the school of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana Ill. I am pretty sure the cut off for whitre males was somewhat higher than for minorities. - MT
__________________
Ahh, I have drawn you out of your safe closet once again. :)
I suppose it would be too much to ask you what year you applied to enter into the School of Veternary Medicine there?
Are you sure that you weren't passed over simply because your grades were too low, rather than due to Affirmative Action??
It seems unnecessary to point out that only high scoring white/non-minority males are discriminated against for their race under Affirmative Action in that setting.
Did you score well? When you say that you are "pretty sure" that the cut-off for white males was somewhat higher than that for minorities, does that mean that you are not quite "sure?"
For the final time, and if you refuse to answer, I will never ask you this question again:
How do you feel about Reparations - the cash payments allegedly due to Black Americans for past discrimination?"
If your answer would cause you too much public pain, I'll understand...
-
Somewhere along the way it went from
'make sure that no one is descriminated against because of race/gender and have the equal opportunity for education and employment"
to 'make sure that there is a % representative of the population (be it city state or national) of this race/gender in all positions -- educational/employment because it should be that way for some reason'
one was implemented to solve a real problem, the second has come about through abuse of the intentions of the first.
There is a huge difference between
making sure that there isn't injustice and
making sure you have a certain percentage of people working/studying for you whether they are equally qualified or not because you feel that you owe them for something.
Show me a former slave that would like to attend college/ get a job (but is deficient in some way due to our government) and I'll show you the government tripping head over teakettle to make sure it happens for him.
-
No, it is not simple. The issue is not what causes disparities (race, culture, socio-ecomomics, region etc). The issue is whether it is a government's job to attempt to "compensate" people for them.
- Mietla
I agree totally with Mietla, who sees the issue clearly. The real issue is whether you think that the US government should enact laws to artificially "raise up" some people, while at the same time "hold down" other people, based entirely on race.
Its wrong on the face of it. Our Constitution says its wrong.
-
quote-It seems unnecessary to point out that only the highest scoring white/non-minority males are discriminated against for their race under Affirmative Action in that setting.
actually this is not true. those of privilage and those with top end scores will still get their schooling and jobs. the ones who get screwed by affirmitive action are those whites who find themselves in the position as the blacks. the ones being denied slots to provide them for the blacks are the whites who are just as bad off as them.
so your poorer white people are discriminated against in the same way blacks are plus the gov't (through AA) has declared open season. not only is it ok to discriminate against these people it will get you labled as 'kind', 'forward thinking', "hey you're part of the solution" :rolleyes: what a load of crap.
-
I already answered your question Gunthr...
"Hello Wall"
But you never answered mine.
-
I'm curious,
If we where to take a poll, here on this bbs, and find out that our ethnic diversity didn't reflect the population of the world as a whole. would that mean that this game is some how biased.
maybe the model for 20-50 yr old white males is porked, and needs reworking?
not everything that doesn't match the diversity of the world is discriminatory.
-
Anyone who thinks discrimination and racism in the workplace and in general has disappeared is sadly misinformed.
Remember, the cure is sometimes painful.
Here is a little analogy I like:
A white man and a black man start a race. The only difference is that the black man must carry a piano. The white man easily pulls far into the lead.
About 1/2 way through, the judges decide that it isn't fair to make the black man carry the piano anymore. He puts it down and proceeds.
Is the race fair now?
How do you make it fair?
Should you make it fair?
Happy MLK day BTW.
-
Capt, what is your solution for dealing with discrimination in the work place and in highering practices?
mietla said,
"No, it's a white man not being racist. Merit is merit."
Right, but ones ability to prove their merit isn't always equal. Do you think all highshool students should have the same quality of general education?
-
I already answered your question Gunthr... "Hello Wall"
Link, please. :)
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
I'm curious,
If we where to take a poll, here on this bbs, and find out that our ethnic diversity didn't reflect the population of the world as a whole. would that mean that this game is some how biased.
maybe the model for 20-50 yr old white males is porked, and needs reworking?
not everything that doesn't match the diversity of the world is discriminatory.
You put the importance of playing Aces High as the same as an education and a job?
-
Here's one I like a little better.
A white man and a black man start a race.
The black man once heard about a man who had to actually carry a piano during a race such as this.
The black man starts to fall behind in the race.
He stops running and cries out to all that will hear him that it was the other black man's piano (that he'd only heard of) that caused him to lose and demands compensaton.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Here is a little analogy I like:
A white man and a black man start a race. The only difference is that the black man must carry a piano. The white man easily pulls far into the lead.
About 1/2 way through, the judges decide that it isn't fair to make the black man carry the piano anymore. He puts it down and proceeds.
Is the race fair now?
How do you make it fair?
Should you make it fair?
Happy MLK day BTW.
-
Gunthr wrote -
Here: "You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it." - Gunthr
Originally posted by midnight Target
OK, I'll play. I admit it. We owe a debt to those who have been wronged by our illegal or immoral institutions. That debt may be in the form of additional asistance in gaining entrance to an advanced education.
I have never run from my beliefs, and I would like to point out that your posts have yet to prove any point at all except possibly to accentuate your personal passions.
You are starting to sound suspisiously like Hortlund....
-
Can anyone tell me how MT feels about Reparations - cash payments allegedly due to black people for past discrimination?
He won't tell me. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
Can anyone tell me how MT feels about Reparations - cash payments allegedly due to black people for past discrimination?
He won't tell me. :rolleyes:
I spent 2 seconds in the search function, using the word "Reparations", the user ID "Midnight", and searched in the O'Club.
Look what I found. "Reparations for slavery is a silly notion that will never work."
-
Kanth...
Denny's
In 1993, Denny's restaurant chain fell under an uncomfortable spotlight as it faced the first of several lawsuits and thousands of claims of racial discrimination of its customers. San Jose, California was the site of the first incident, when several black teenagers were refused service unless they agreed to pay in advance (Smith, 1996). The following year more and more issues came crashing down on the popular casual dining chain. One of the most well-known cases was that of six Asian-Americans of Syracuse University. The students visited a Denny's restaurant late at night and waited over 30 minutes for service. As white patrons were regularly seated and waited on, these six students were kept waiting. When they complained, they were forcibly ejected from the establishment by two security guards. Outside, they were beaten by a mob of white customers that spilled out of the restaurant while guards stood by and did nothing. These six students were pushed, shoved, jeered, and racially insulted, and not a single law enforcer present did anything to stop it. Three black students were threatened with mace by guards when they attempted to aid the Asian-Americans. A white student accompanying the group was also threatened. Two of these students were knocked unconscious during the assault ("Students Accuse," 1997).
On the same day that the first lawsuit was settled, six black Secret Service agents visited a Denny's restaurant in Annapolis, Maryland, and were forced to wait an hour for service while their white companions were seated promptly and were waited on with second and third helpings (Guillermo, 1997). Countless other incidents similar in nature occurred throughout the Denny's chain. One Sacramento resident, a white male, was seated promptly at a Denny's restaurant. When his wife, a black woman, came to join him, the waitress's demeanor altered drastically. She slammed down a plate of spaghetti in front of the black woman, splattering her blouse with tomato sauce. Another black Denny's customer, Douglas McNeal, was told that he and his friends had to pay for their meals at the same time they ordered their food. McNeal observed a white couple order and pay up at the counter after their meal, as usual. He questioned the waitress: "We asked the waitress about it and she said some black guys had been in earlier who made a scene and walked out without paying their bill. So the manager now wanted all blacks to pay up front" (Ferraro, 1995).
Who's piano?
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
Can anyone tell me how MT feels about Reparations - cash payments allegedly due to black people for past discrimination?
He won't tell me. :rolleyes:
Now your sniveling...
Thank you Thrawn, but,
Give a man a fish.. you know the rest. ;)
-
You have no shame, MT. :)
-
MT, regarding Denny's-
What Denny’s did was illegal and wrong, and the victims took them to court over it.
The difference is that when AA discriminates against you there is no real recourse.
Thrawn,
Quote-------------
Capt, what is your solution for dealing with discrimination in the work place and in highering practices.
You put the importance of playing Aces High as the same as an education and a job?
--------------------
1st issue, these practices are illegal and you have recourse under the law.
2nd issue, no, try to pay attention. It’s a parallel, an analogy. Discrimination is discrimination. Bias is bias. Statistics are statistics. The importance or gravity of the result is irrelevant when you are deciding the morality of an issue.
A full house beats 3 of a kind. It doesn't matter whether the bet is 25 cents or 25 grand
-
MT, I've eaten at Denny's, they were doing those guys a favor by not serving them. ;)
Seriously though, being treated toejamty by a privately owned restaurant, and yes Denny's deserves to be boycotted, what does that have to do with education or job opportunities? Unless you're a minority looking to work there.
It'd be interesting to know what the percentage of minorities is among Denny's employees.
The Internet is an amazing thing. Here's what I found:
Today, approximately half of Denny's parent company's 46,000 employees are minorities, 11 percent of them black and 31 percent Latino. Thirty-two percent of the supervisory positions are held by minorities, and for two straight years Fortune magazine has named it the "Best Company in America for Minorities."
-
The Denny's post was just a little taste for Kanth to show that the affects of the past still linger today....
-
Originally posted by AKIron
The Internet is an amazing thing. Here's what I found:
Today, approximately half of Denny's parent company's 46,000 employees are minorities, 11 percent of them black and 31 percent Latino. Thirty-two percent of the supervisory positions are held by minorities, and for two straight years Fortune magazine has named it the "Best Company in America for Minorities."
All probably due to an Affirmative Action program.
:D
-
Let me show you a little taste of hate crime statistics MT
:)
so lets look at some quick figures.
bad link:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsServlet?_basicfacts=1&_mult1=22560736&_geo2=010&_current=&_action=_subjectSelected&_child_geo_id=&_lang=en
break it down by race for the United States.
2000 census
Census for the United States 2000
White 211,460,626 75.1% of the population
Black or African American 34,658,190 12.3% of the population
=======================================
US department of justice fact sheet:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel02/2001hc.htm
The majority of known hate crime offenders 2001
(65.5 percent) were white
20.4 percent were black
Goodness, what do those figures mean.
perhaps someone could explain to me how this can be even possible while they are carrying all of those pianos.
Originally posted by midnight Target
The Denny's post was just a little taste for Kanth to show that the affects of the past still linger today....
-
Thank you Kanth,
Discrimination does affect people in terrible ways. Sometimes the hopelessness leads to crime.
-
Of course, the piano's made them do it. :)
Originally posted by midnight Target
Thank you Kanth,
Discrimination does affect people in terrible ways. Sometimes the hopelessness leads to crime.
-
Well this thread was a hoot...
Night All.
:)
-
quote
------------------------
Discrimination does affect people in terrible ways. Sometimes the hopelessness leads to crime.
------------------------
do you mean like when poorer white kids have no hope of college or a decent job, thanks to the discrimination of AA. so they get together with some freinds in the same position, maybe shave their heads, strap on some boots, maybe draw a couple swastikas.
maybe they lash out at the people they percieve as the problem.
btw- you can't really blame blacks for taking advatage of AA. if somebody wanted to give me extra points while testing for a job, I'd take them too. the problem is the system not the people taking advantage of it.
-
Mietla wrote:
No, it is not simple. The issue is not what causes disparities (race, culture, socio-ecomomics, region etc). The issue is whether it is a government's job to attempt to "compensate" people for them.
My comment was about nature vs nurture, really. The IQ/intelligence sub-thread in the AA thread. I've made my views on AA known before. Not in favour of it.
-
MT your story:
A white man and a black man start a race. The only difference is that the black man must carry a piano. The white man easily pulls far into the lead.
About 1/2 way through, the judges decide that it isn't fair to make the black man carry the piano anymore. He puts it down and proceeds.
Is the race fair now?
How do you make it fair?
Should you make it fair?
Is a misrepresentation of reality.
More fair: A white man and a black man race. The black man must carry a piano. They have children. The black man having a bad back cannot provide the best sneakers for his kid. The kids race. When the black kid loses, he says it's because he's carrying a piano. Then the kid races a white kid whos father carried two lumps of coal and also has a bad back. The black kid is given a 10 mi nute head start because his father carried a piano. The white kind wonders whether this is right and runs directly into the arms of White Sumpremacist With Bad Sneakers.
AA is a flawed, as is your analogy. And mine. But less so.
It's the pilot, not the plane - isn't that what we say here?
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Sorry SAnta, but I stand by the Analogy.
The men don't represent men they represent races. The piano represents the institutionalized racism that was previlent in our society. The racism of the past meant that most of the leadership in this country happened to be white males. Opportunity for advancement continued to be limited even though the legally sanctioned racism ceased to exist. Thus the race continues to be unfair until something is done to make up for the disparity created in the past and perpetuated today.
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Who can honestly argue that race discrimination hasn't led to inequalities among Americans? The disagreement is about how to fix it. And fixing it will require a lot of maybe painful self examination all around. Too many just want to sweep the problems under the rug or issues crutches without setting the break so that it may heal properly. AA is a crutch and is/was needed for the wound to heal. If it isn't healing then we need to find out why.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Who can honestly argue that race discrimination hasn't led to inequalities among Americans? The disagreement is about how to fix it. And fixing it will require a lot of maybe painful self examination all around. Too many just want to sweep the problems under the rug or issues crutches without setting the break so that it may heal properly. AA is a crutch and is/was needed for the wound to heal. If it isn't healing then we need to find out why.
Agreed.
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Raises hand....we need to
"Be Excellent to Each other"
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though the legally sanctioned racism ceased to exist.
???
no we just picked a new victim. it's not about equality it's about revenge. the problem is that the 'privleged white upperclass' is uneffected by AA it's only the poorer whites who take it in the shorts
______________________
The men don't represent men they represent races.
you mean you're not looking at these people as individuals? not judging them on their merit as men? you're lumping them in as statistics based on what others (who happen to be of the same race) have done or experienced? how fluff'n racist. you nazi. ;)
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I'd like to see an end to race/gender being a qualifying factor in anything.
That will end some of the resentment backlash that is building up and stop perpetuating some of the hatred.
Nice post, Iron, btw.
Originally posted by AKIron
Who can honestly argue that race discrimination hasn't led to inequalities among Americans? The disagreement is about how to fix it. And fixing it will require a lot of maybe painful self examination all around. Too many just want to sweep the problems under the rug or issues crutches without setting the break so that it may heal properly. AA is a crutch and is/was needed for the wound to heal. If it isn't healing then we need to find out why.
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heres the deal... some things in life are racial. Asians are smarter than whites in some areas... jews are the smartest of all... black people have denser bones. get over it. You aren't helping anyone if you force people with low math skills into math skill intensive jobs... you won't get good boxing matches if you use afirmative action.... You won't get good swim meets either.
The bell curve is correct. That is not to say that there are bright and talented people of all races... perhaps we shouold be spending the effort in helping all "gifted" people of any race and leave the race part out.
Get rid of the public schools and put in vouchers... continue the trend toward fast paced "specialty" schools that concentrat on "trades"
lazs
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MT
Thanks Kanth
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Originally posted by lazs2
heres the deal... some things in life are racial. Asians are smarter than whites in some areas... jews are the smartest of all... black people have denser bones. get over it. You aren't helping anyone if you force people with low math skills into math skill intensive jobs... you won't get good boxing matches if you use afirmative action.... You won't get good swim meets either.
The bell curve is correct. That is not to say that there are bright and talented people of all races... perhaps we shouold be spending the effort in helping all "gifted" people of any race and leave the race part out.
Get rid of the public schools and put in vouchers... continue the trend toward fast paced "specialty" schools that concentrat on "trades"
lazs
I disagree Lazs, the difference in smarts is much more cultural than racial. Culture/environment tells a child what's important. I think it's been demonstrated many times that if a society encourages education and disciplines it's youth then there is little if any difference between any human races. Of course nutrition is an important factor in developing intelligence.
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believe what you want iron. Fact is... we need certain skills for certain jobs. So far.... we have found that various races and even the genders, have different skills. To pretend that this is not happening is foolish and counter productive. I don't believe in forcing a square peg into a round hole or.... pretending that those who do have mechanical ability.
Do what you want but I will continue to insist on jewish doctors, lawyers and comedians for me personally.
you can have asian drivers and white heavyweight boxers and english cooks and black swimmers if you like.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Do what you want but I will continue to insist on jewish doctors, lawyers and comedians for me personally.
you can have asian drivers and white heavyweight boxers and english cooks and black swimmers if you like.
lazs
Asian Drivers - Chinese driver Franky Cheng, of FRD Motorsports, captured first place in the Formula Renault category with a time of 28:44.086. Second place went to young Filipino driver Enzo Pastor of Team T.E.C., who clocked in at 29:33.905.0, followed by Hong Kong's Kenny Chun of FRD Motorsports who clocked in at 29:54.485.
- from the Asian Formula 3 circuit.
White Heavyweight- Like Marciano?
English Cooks - Tough one, but I like the 2 fat Ladies.
Black Swimmers - Anthony Nesty, Suriname, won the 100 fly at the 1988 Seoul olympics, clocking 53.00 -- .01 ahead of the USA's Matt Biondi and Anthony Ervin, University of California and Phoenix Swim Club, 2000, won gold in the 50 free and silver in the 400 free relay at the Sydney Games.
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Lazs, 'smarter' in that context is socio-economic and cultural conditions, not 'race'.
A black and a yellow lab aren't exactly two different races.
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who cares if some asian driver manages to win the special olympics of F1.. or that some white guy could be a heavyweight champ when they didn't let blacks many in. or... that some english guy somewhere learned that chicken could be cooked without boiling it... Much better to generalize. you will be wrong less often and... I did say... help the gifted of all races but.... you can't make someone gifted. There are exceptions to any generalization and I have no trouble accepting that but... The differences are real not "socio economic" that is crap.
I don't care why the scores come out the way they do. If the scores reflect what is needed to do the job then the low scoreres should do us all a favor and try another field.
lazs
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If the scores reflect what is needed to do the job then the low scoreres should do us all a favor and try another field.
Trouble is the tests do not perform the function intended, they just discriminate.
SAT tests for example are a terrible indicator of success in college (there are plenty of links showing this). High school grades are a much better indicator of college success. Funny thing is, women tend to get higher grades in high school, while men score better on the SAT.
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MT.. are you saying that there is no relationship between hig SAT scores and good grades in school? Seems that a lot of those afirmative action guys with low SAT's, that couldn't figure out what a regatta was also couldn't get past the first year.
lazs
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Do I have to dig up the studies or are you gonna take my word on this one?
SAT scores are such a poor predictor of college success that even when combined with high school grades the prediction doesn't improve upon grades alone.
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The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution says that, "no state shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".
About that passage the Supreme Court wrote: "The rights created by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment are, by its terms, guaranteed to the individual. The rights established are
personal rights.... Equal protection of the laws is not advanced through indiscriminate imposition of inequalities.
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http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030121/4794964s.htm
Front-line troops disproportionately white, not black Numbers refute long-held belief
So that makes:
) the military
) some professional sports
) hate crimes
it's hard to make proper smores without adequate heat.
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does anybody remember 'the golden rule' from pre-school days?
surely you remember the "do unto others as you would have others do unto you?"
in other words if what you are doing to others would piss you off if they did it to you, then it's wrong.
minorities would be pissed if we gave bonus points or special treatment to whites when applying for work/school. and rightly so. this would be wrong. and if this is wrong then it would also be wrong to give special consideration to minorities, (we call that AA).
it's not really that hard to understand if you just open your eyes. my kids could understand this at about the age of 2.
"did you take her cookie?, would you want her to take your cookie?, then don't take her cookie. taking other peoples cookies is wrong. no it's not ok, just because you are hungry or want it"
simple, right?
if it's wrong for one person to do something it's wrong for others too. It is even more wrong to allow people to break the rules based on their race, that is racism.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
does anybody remember 'the golden rule' from pre-school days?
surely you remember the "do unto others as you would have others do unto you?"
Yeah, and the reason AA exists is to redress the fact that white people didn't follow this rule for decades.
You can't wave a magic wand and just say, "Abracadabra, racism is gone.", and it is so. The damage done by decades of racism must be fixed some how. Or at least the attempt must be made to fix it.
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I didn't do racist things, my kids didn't do racist things. however I've seen alot of racism since I've became an adult. most of it with whites as the victim.
punishing a whole race for the actions of some people (most of them not even alive today) is racism. and thinking it's ok, just because the victim is white is even more racist.
_________________________
I know, I know I'll save you the time of posting- It's ok because we are discriminating against whites. you can't be a victim you are a white man. you have to be either a woman or a minority to be a victim.
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Didja ever get pulled over simply because you were a white man driving in the wrong neighborhood?
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SATs are a good indicator of education level. The thing to do is level the playing field by making sure everyone has an equal opportunity for a quality education k-12. After that let it be competitive. Competition inspires excellence.
You can have expensive schools and great teachers but without parental interest and involvement how far will you get?
Lazs, you attribute high scores by Asians to higher intelligence. I attribute it to them working harder at getting educated. In Japan for instance, 6 day school weeks, uniforms, and no nonsense. Of course they are going to score higer.
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Originally posted by AKIron
SATs are a good indicator of education level.
I'm sory Iron, but no. SAT's are designed to disregard the educational level of the test taker and are suposed to indicate their ability to use cognitave ability. They fail miserably at this because it is entirely possible to "STUDY" for the SAT and improve your score.
(educational level is a poor choice of words, obviously the testees should be high school seniors, however there is no higher level math in the test so that cognitave ability is suposedly tested instead of rote knowledge.)
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Didja ever get pulled over simply because you were a white man driving in the wrong neighborhood?
have been pulled over for being oin the wrong neighborhood. (long hair, on a bike cutting through a rich part of town), pulled over, knocked down, shotgun to the back of the head, while they checked ID. (man I don't miss Kansas City).
funny thing though, they didn't do any job inter-viewing or college enrollment questions while it was going on.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Didja ever get pulled over simply because you were a white man driving in the wrong neighborhood?
Yes- I was pulled over for driving through the ghetto "at the wrong time of day" (it was actually night time).
Being white will get you pulled over, ironically in overwhelmingly poor black communities that are populated by drug dealers.
BTW- my family came from Germany in the early 1900s... I don't owe anyone nothing.
Funny thing tho, all this talk about giving hand me outs to "minorities"... yet the ones who were actually capable of succeeding at what they wanted, did so regardless of any hand me outs in times of severe racial discrimination.
Unless I'm mistaken about the 332nd FG... Some people still insist they are being held back... the only thing holding them back is that sack of meat resting on their shoulders.
-SW
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
funny thing though, they didn't do any job inter-viewing or college enrollment questions while it was going on.
hehe
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm sory Iron, but no. SAT's are designed to disregard the educational level of the test taker and are suposed to indicate their ability to use cognitave ability.
Well, they should. Who deserves more to get into a college than someone that has worked hard to prepare?
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wulf... asians in the states go to the same schools whites and blacks do. They are more skilled/smarter in cetain areas on the average.
mt.. I don't get what you are saying.. if whites and blacks both go to the same school and the whites do better on the average and then do better on the SAT and then do better in higher education how is it "socio-economic"? I think anyone who uses a term like "socio-economic" is lazy and probly shiftless.
Why is it so hard to believe that race place a part in mental as well as physical skill? Why would race ponly affect the physical? Seems that denying that it does is what is keeping people from living with each other.... AA causes resentment and backlash among thinking people. Believe me.... I am not the only one to feel that a woman or black in a position of power is there because the person who deserved the job got screwed.
lazs
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I'm still looking for the post where I said "socio-economic".
Here are the facts lazs -
Generally speaking a white person and a black person who have similar grades in high school will do equally as well in college. The white person however, will score higher on the SAT. This indicates a problem with the test, not the race. Now if the test is used as an entrance requirement for higher education the bias becomes self perpetuating.
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MT, the biggest gaps between races are in math. How can an algebra question be biased?
I hold that the disparaity in the SAT results is prepatory education and nothing more.
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Lazs- I dunno why you pointed that out to me?
MT- Simple solution: they can go to community college, get their education at 1/4 or less the price of a 4 year university, get good grades there and be a shoe in at any 4 year university.
I did poorly on the SATs, I went to comm college, got an assoc in Comp Network Mgmt. I am now at a 4 year university going for a BS in Comp Science.. why does a black person deserve a better shot at a 4 year university than I do?
We both did poorly on the SATs.
-SW
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Remember reading somewhere that SAT scores are a good indicator of who will finish college. Seems like it was 65% of those that score over 1000 finish college within 5 years while only 35% of those scoring less than 900 finish at all.
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Here are some facts.. A Faulty Instrument For Predicting College Success (http://www.fairtest.org/facts/satvalidity.html)
So SW, your solution for an obviously biased test is to send the person who has been wronged to a CC? :rolleyes:
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I still fail to see how it's "obviously biased"... No one has pointed that out yet, except your little "racial discrimation" question that was in fact related to geography and not race.
I didn't do well on the test either, but since I'm white, my bellybutton don't deserve no perks, right?
-SW
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It has been pointed out repeatedly.
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No, actually, it hasn't... just a bunch of "it's obviously racist" and "it's discriminatory"
But there has been no factual evidence of racial bias/discrimination on this test that I have seen.
And you still ducked my question: A black man and me do the same on the SATs... but he deserves benefit of the doubt and gets admitted to a 4 year university, while I deserve to go to community college (while you believe this man should be admitted to the 4 year university)....
No there ain't a damn thing wrong with that picture... not one.
-SW
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It has been pointed out repeatedly.
__________________
It's been stated. It's been repeated. It hasn't been proven.
all we have heard is people repeatedly stating over and over that they think there is a racial bias.
short of asking hair care questions I fail to see how a 'racialy biased' question is possable. :rolleyes:
the existance of racially biased questions (I don't believe they are possable), would give great amunition to many racist organizations. it would prove the clan and the nazi's right, because the only way you can have racially biased questions is if different races are inherantly bad at certain questions.
how can a person state that "we are equal", and then in the next breath say "It's not fair that you ask that question, I'm black, blacks suck at that kind of question"
it just doesn't add up. pick a line of thought and stick with it throughout the argument.
so which is it? are blacks just not capable of doing well in certain subjects? or is the racially biased question a myth? they can't both be true.
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You have been provided with statistics, quotes from experts, and questions.
One of the questions had a 19% difference in the number of correct answers by whites vs. hispanics. Sure the geographical region was significant. Of course it was. SO WHAT? The point is not the origin of the bias, it is the fact that it is there. The question unfairly assisted those from Lemon-yellow regions. Those people are mostly white. It unfairly hurt those from Lemon-green areas, those people are mostly Hispanic.
Clear as the skinny nose on your face.:p
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Sure the geographical region was significant-
it was everything. it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with region. in what way would whites from the same area have an advatage over hispanics? in what way would hispanics from 'yellow lemon' areas be at a disadvatage from whites in these areas. in fact hispanics from yellow lemon areas would have an advatage over whites from green lemon areas (even before AA discrimination).
I'll say it again. to lump people in catagories like you are doing based on their race is racist.
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The lemon thing is one question off the test, the only question... other than that, can you find something that actually supports racial discrimination on the test?
In this case, that question was in fact, geographical discrimination... using the color of one's skin is just a means to say "oh lookie, we found a bias"..
Out of all the quotes of experts, and statistics, you have yet to prove the test itself can discriminate based on the color of your skin. The statistics can be manipulated anyway someone wants to. Case in point: I start a test with two groups of people and the test is a creme pie. I found that the first group of people ate down the entire pie. I conclude they like creme pies. The second group ate very little or none. I conclude the second group didn't like creme pies.
I failed to mention that the first group that ate the entire pie hasn't eaten for days. I also failed to mention that the second group consists of diabetics and people who had a meal just prior to taking the test.
The test only discriminates based on the level of your education, or the effort you are willing to put into preparing for the test... and that's that.
Of course, you still ducked my question... but I already know the answer... cuz I'm white, I deserve to not get the chances a black man that scored exactly the same on the same test at being pushed onto a better education...
That's blatant racism.
-SW
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well... it seems the 'facts" are not that apparent... I have allways heard that those who do well on the SAT also have a higher school completion rate now... MT says that isn't so. I have also heard that whites do better in both the SAT hand higher education when both whites and blacks have the same grades in high school.
either way... the SAT can't be biased on the math portion.
either way... there is no reason why one race should be favored over another for admissons when they both score the same on the SAT.
lazs
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I get the feeling that there is really nothing that can be done to convince you that tests can be biased. Even math tests.
But I am hard headed enough to try...
High School girls tend to have higher GPA's than the boys, including Math. Why then do they continually score lower on the SAT math portion?
here...
WHY THE GENDER GAP?
Although it is clear that university admissions tests under predict females' abilities, there is no definitive answer to what causes this bias. It appears that several factors contribute to the gender gap.
Biased test questions
A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser, The SAT Gender Gap: Identifying the Causes, found that the vast majority of questions exhibiting large gender differences in correct answer rates are biased in favor of males, despite females' superior academic performance. Rosser found that females generally did better on questions about relationships, aesthetics and the humanities, while males did better on questions about sports, the physical sciences and business.
This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report. She notes that it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."
Multiple-choice format
A joint study by the Educational Testing Service and the College Board concluded that the multiple-choice format itself is biased against women. The study examined a variety of question types on Advanced Placement tests (like the SAT, made by ETS for the College Board and administered to college bound seniors) and found that the gender gap narrowed or disappeared on all types of questions (e.g. short answer, essay, constructed response) except multiple choice. Similar results were also found with the California Bar Exam and the SAT's English Composition Test with Essay. The researchers conclude, "The better relative performance of females on constructed-response tests has important implications for high-stakes standardized testing... If both types of tests measure important education outcomes, equity concerns would dictate a mix of the two types of assessment instruments."
Guessing
The SAT is scored with a "guessing penalty," which deducts one-quarter point for every incorrect answer. Questions left blank are simply scored as zero. The intent of this policy is to make random guessing inadvisable. However, since one or two answer choices can usually be eliminated as obviously incorrect, it is often in the test-taker's best interest to make an educated guess.
Research indicates that males are more likely to take risks on the test and guess when they do not know the answer, whereas females tend to answer the question only if they are sure they are correct. Unwillingness to make educated guesses on this exam has been shown to have a significant negative impact on scores.
The ACT does not have a guessing penalty, which may be one reason why the gender gap on that test is much smaller.
"Speededness"
Another factor that contributes to the gender gap is the fast-paced, or "speeded" nature of the test. On some sections of the exam, students must answer as many as 35 questions (some of them requiring lengthy reading passages) in 30 minutes--an average of only 51 seconds per question.
Substantial evidence exists that females approach problem-solving differently than males; they are more likely to work a problem out completely, to consider more than one- possible answer, and to check their answers. While these are desirable traits in school and in life, they work against females on an exam that is supposed to predict their ability to do academic work.
Numerous studies have found that when the time constraint is lifted from the test, females' scores improve markedly, while males' remain the same or increase slightly. Un-timed administrations of the test still show a small score difference between males and females, suggesting that speededness is only one of several factors that bias the exam against young women.
The Test-Makers' Excuse
Some test company officials have suggested that the gender gap is caused by the fact that more females take the tests than males. They argue that the larger pool of females includes more low- scoring students, which in turn reduces the average score for women.
In fact, research shows that controlling for these variables does not explain the gap. A study by L.M. Sharp, for example, finds no evidence that females' lower scores can be attributed to the larger number of women taking the exam, and concludes that the causes of the gap lie elsewhere than in the demographic makeup of the male and female testing populations.
Twice as many males as females achieve SAT scores over 700. If the scoring gap were caused solely by the larger pool of females taking the exam, females should still attain the same percentage of high scores as males. In fact, the opposite is true: the gender gap is largest in the highest score ranges.
Federal District Judge Walker, in a 1989 decision barring New York's use of SAT scores alone to award scholarships, concluded that "...under the most conservative studies presented in evidence, even after removing the effect of [factors such as ethnicity, parental education, high school classes, and proposed college major], at least a 30 point combined differential [out of approximately 60 points] remains unexplained."
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"This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report."
The exam, how the test is administered and the way it is administered has greatly changed since then.
I took it 3 times, each time they told us that a guess was better than no answer at all.
They also allow students to take them with a significantly extended time limit now.
As for the multiple choice format... how else are they going to grade it? If you can't choose the right answer, then you didn't know it to begin with.
-SW
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My god! You're right!
Obviously a Phd. means nothing anymore. These idiots just had to call you to straighten out the entire situation. If only we had known sooner SW!!
:rolleyes:
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I see, we dodge questions, and make up answers to something that doesn't exist as well.
-SW
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MT, I don't see anyone arguing about a gender bias. There is more difference between genders of the same race than there is between the same gender of different races.
If the tests could be adjusted to make scores balance out across genders and races without everyone pegging it don't you think this would have been done by now?
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WHY THE GENDER GAP?
A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser
researcher Carol Dwyer, …. In her 1976 report
WOW, now that’s proof of racial bias. 2 women think that the tests aren’t fair to women. (you don’t think they just found answers they where looking to find from the outset and justified them after the fact? Nah.) and 27 year old report? That’s current.
The only thing that remotely shows bias is-
Research indicates that males are more likely to take risks on the test and guess when they do not know the answer, whereas females tend to answer the question only if they are sure they are correct. Unwillingness to make educated guesses on this exam has been shown to have a significant negative impact on scores.
While this could explain how a sexually biased test could be assembled. (not racial though) it would first have to concede that we are not the same or equally suited to all educational disciplines or forms of employment. In many fields mine included, the perfect answer is not often an option. You need to assess the situation quickly, assess the resources you have on hand today and find the most efficient way to get to an acceptable conclusion. If you sit there undecided looking for the perfect answer while the clock ticks away you aren’t going to make it past the first day.
So while this may explain differentials in test scores. It would also go along way into giving validity to over-looking women in certain fields. If we are going accept that their brains work differently, then the next logical step is to accept that maybe those whose brains work this way aren’t suited for certain work.
Now, if you are saying that the reason test are racially biased can be proven in the same type of way (i.e. their brains just work differently). Then this would go along way not only to justify racial discrimination in hiring(both ways not just against whites as in AA. But also the opposite) but explain some of the score discrepancies in perfectly honest test.
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Originally posted by AKIron
MT, I don't see anyone arguing about a gender bias. There is more difference between genders of the same race than there is between the same gender of different races.
If the tests could be adjusted to make scores balance out across genders and races without everyone pegging it don't you think this would have been done by now?
I think people are working towards this goal as we speak. I don't think there is some insidious institutional plot to keep any minority down. These problems are mostly historical, and as such they are as difficult to spot as they are to fix. The point is that there needs to be an awareness of the issue so that it can be addressed.
I don't want you held back because you're white SW. I don't think you will be. I do think that the sins of the past need to be fixed, and they still exist to some extent.
Your question SW IIRC was about you and a black man getting the same score on a SAT. Who should get the nod to a 4 year college. My answer is that basing the decision on that test is the problem. According to the statistics, a black man getting the same score as you on the SAT likely had a better GPA in high school. So statistically speaking with an equal SAT and higher GPA I would choose him. GPA is also a much better indicator of future college success.
OTOH, you could always go to a community college. ;)
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MT, I could argue that GPA isn't an accurate assesment unless both students graduated from the same highschool. A 4.0 at some schools is much harder to come by than others, hence the standardized testing.
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You could argue whatever point you like, but the fact is that GPA is a much better indicator of college performance than the SAT test. I believe I have provided links to the data in this thread.
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I guess it all depends on the black man's education if his GPA is higher than mine, and yes I agree that the SAT isn't a good measure for admission to a university...
I'll take the Comm College jab, I went there and I left there with a degree. In retrospect I am somewhat thankful for going to Comm College. It allowed me to work, go to school and pay for it all easily because it is so cheap and the one I went to has one of the best Computer Science departments in the US.
I'm just saying that with the option of Community College (where you will be admitted regardless of your SATs or GPA), and can be there for 1 semester, 2 semesters, or 2 years (working halfway to your degree) with a significantly reduced price of a 4 year insitution, that it is not a bad choice, especially if you do well there, you will be guaranteed admission to any state school.
-SW
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You could argue whatever point you like, but the fact is that GPA is a much better indicator of college performance than the SAT test. I believe I have provided links to the data in this thread.
OK, so are you saying we could do away with the extra points given to some minorities if we base acceptance on GPA then?
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It would be a much fairer situation.
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Not sure how representative this is, will do more looking. But based on this it looks like you might be wrong:
http://www.ccboe.com/r&a/AAA8GPA.HTM
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gpa's are very subjective.
I had many teachers who in civics based a higher percentage of your grade on a projects that required little or no knowledge of the subject.
my sons history teacher gave points based on how many pins you sold for their charitable fund raiser.
grades are often given for how hard you work or your willingness to play along. many kids who had only very basic knowledge of subjects in school got excelent grades because they where good in sports, sucked up to the teacher, or just had a good heart (tried hard, gave it their best, didn't know toejam).
another problem with gpa's is there is no real standard across the country. when I went to school a an F was 64% or less. for my kids 60% is a d-.
also there is grading on the curve. what if the best kid in a particular class had a score of 70% of total possable points. then a kid who scored 50% would have somewhere near a C. but given the exact same ciriculem and grading style but a class where the highest acheiver got a 98% then the same 50% would fail you.
GPA's don't mean anything. test show what you know. maybe there should be some sort of grade that shows how hard you work but it has nothing to do with what you know or are able to understand
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Agreed. The idea that a certain number of top students from each school is guaranteed a spot in to colleges is the stupidest I've heard in a while. And obviously its purpose it to replace AA with something less obviously racist which would produce a similar effect, an unqualified student accepted at the expense of the qualified ones.
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You guys are amazing..
So since you had a subjective experience with grades they can't be the indicator for future college success that I claim.. right? sheesh.
Read this:
SAT I: A Faulty Crystal Ball
Once again trying to defend its lucrative product, the College Board is aggressively pitching a new study on the SAT’s ability to predict college success. Though released by the University of Minnesota, the “unbiased” report was funded by the College Board and co-authored by a Board Vice President.
Despite some fanfare accompanying the release of the study, very little new information was presented. Results showed that SAT combined scores (Verbal plus Math) were moderately related to freshmen GPA (FGPA), with a correlation of .53 (hence, explaining a bit more than a quarter of the variance in grades). This level of predictive validity is actually less than that of high school GPA (.54), as indicated in several College Board publications, demonstrating once again that a student’s high school record is still the single best predictor of college performance. The study did not address the predictive validity of SAT scores combined with high school GPA.
The research also found that test scores diminish in their predictive power as an individual progresses through college, with the SAT-V and SAT-M relating only slightly to degree attainment (under .2).
Now that study was funded by the OWNERS of the SAT. Why do you keep fighting this issue?
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We are not just talking about SAT scores here, or just about entrance to college. Affirmative Action is a lot more than just that... consider race based set asides, race based hiring, race based housing, race based awards in public contracts, etc...
Martin Luther said that humanity is like a man mounting a horse who always tends to fall off on the other side of the horse. This seems to be the case with Affirmative Action.
Attempting to redress the discriminatory iniquities of our history, our well-intentioned social engineers now engage in new forms of discriminatory iniquity and thereby think that they have successfully mounted the horse of racial harmony. They have only fallen off on the other side of the issue. - Louis Pojman
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it's very simple, statistics can be manipulated to show anything you want.
all I ask is to show a question that would be biased against someone from a certain race. not biased by region of the country. not biased by how much money your daddy made. not biased by rural, urban or somewhere in between residence. but a simple racial bias. where a question is biased and that bias is based on the color of the persons skin.
in near 300 posts this hasn't been done.
the reason this hasn't been done is that it can't be done. it is ludicrous that the very people demand equal rights turn around and say they can't be as good at something because of the color of their skin
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bias is based on the color of the persons skin.
That is impossible unless there is an actual difference in the mental abilities of the races. Like I said before, the bias may be due to cultural or geographical or linguistic reasons, but the affect is racial due to the general makeup of the race in those regions or cultures or languages. It is very simple really.
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quote- That is impossible unless there is an actual difference in the mental abilities of the races.
thank you. exactly what I've been saying all along. it is not posable to bias a test based on race. by giving points to blacks when the issue is more where they live not their race then you are making racist stereo types. not all (and not only) blacks live in run-down urban areas. and you are saying we should base social policy on these types of racist stereo types? this is why, as someone who finds racism moraly wrong, I find AA moraly wrong.
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From Education Week Online:
Would eradication of standardized admissions tests produce a more ethnically diverse freshman class? Recent evidence from several sources indicates the answer is no. Consider:
University of California studies of high school student records showed that eliminating standardized-test requirements would not increase minority representation. Failure to complete required courses was found to be the main barrier to eligibility for admission in all ethnic groups.
An exceptionally thorough College Board analysis supported the long-standing finding that the SAT tends to predict higher college grades for African-American and Latino students than are actually attained. This result undermines the claim that SAT elimination would promote greater diversity.
Studies confirmed that high school grade point average tends to follow the same ethnic-group patterns as standardized-test scores. Therefore, relying on high school achievement in place of test scores cannot result in a dramatic change.
Let's take a closer look at each of these points.
Would eliminating the SAT foster diversity on California campuses?
In December 1997, the University of California office of the president reported on a study designed to determine the effect of various admissions policies on the rates of "UC eligibility," which is based on the completion of college-preparatory courses, GPA for those courses, and, if the GPA is below 3.3, scores on the SAT or ACT. The data for the study, which were collected by the California Postsecondary Education Commission, came from a random sample of 1996 graduates of California public high schools.
Here's the whole article:
http://www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=22zwick.h18
Here's the conclusion of the article:
Individuals of every political stripe agree that, ultimately, we must fix the K-12 "pipeline" (or "river," to adopt the Bowen-Bok metaphor). But this will take years. What can we do in the meantime? The honest and direct way to achieve diversity is by considering an applicant's membership in an underrepresented group to be a "plus" in the admissions process. Eliminating admissions-test requirements as a form of covert affirmative action is not sound policy. Instead, we should focus our efforts on eliminating the legal obstacles to affirmative action programs.
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Al Sharpton is running for President. You think we ought to give him a few states and votes automatically in order to be fair to him?
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lmao Nuke :D
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not funny. don't give them any ideas
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what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Give Sharpton ( and all minority candidates) states and votes in the elections......it's only fair. We have to even the playing field in our elections.
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We need to have a proportionate number of minority Presidents in the US. I propose we give all minority candidates 20% of the vote up front. It's only fair.
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mt quoted...
A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser, The SAT Gender Gap: Identifying the Causes, found that the vast majority of questions exhibiting large gender differences in correct answer rates are biased in favor of males, despite females' superior academic performance. Rosser found that females generally did better on questions about relationships, aesthetics and the humanities, while males did better on questions about sports, the physical sciences and business.
This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report. She notes that it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."
Multiple-choice format
A joint study by the Educational Testing Service and the College Board concluded that the multiple-choice format itself is biased against women. The study examined a variety of question types on Advanced Placement tests (like the SAT, made by ETS for the College Board and administered to college bound seniors) and found that the gender gap narrowed or disappeared on all types of questions (e.g. short answer, essay, constructed response) except multiple choice. Similar results were also found with the California Bar Exam and the SAT's English Composition Test with Essay. The researchers conclude, "The better relative performance of females on constructed-response tests has important implications for high-stakes standardized testing... If both types of tests measure important education outcomes, equity concerns would dictate a mix of the two types of assessment instruments."
This is not news to me or anyone who has lived long enough to observe people.. I have allways said that women (and liberals) have better communications skills while men have better mechanical skills. multiple choice proves men are better at decision making. I don't want to drive across a bridge that was built by someone with "good communication skills" I want the little yellow bugger with the good math skills to have built it. Perhaps I would rather have women teach my children. There are of course, allways exceptions to rules and we should be able to accept the fact that there are exceptions but... we should stop trying to force square pegs into round holes... No amount of communications skills will make that work.
Gender, race... physical differences translate into.... differences. Not better or worse as people but different... Not being able to accept this is the root of the resentment.
lazs
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Interesting article Iron, especially since it is the Regents of the UC system who are leading the way regarding the elimination of the SAT. did you note this in the conclusion?
The honest and direct way to achieve diversity is by considering an applicant's membership in an underrepresented group to be a "plus" in the admissions process. Eliminating admissions-test requirements as a form of covert affirmative action is not sound policy. Instead, we should focus our efforts on eliminating the legal obstacles to affirmative action programs.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Interesting article Iron, especially since it is the Regents of the UC system who are leading the way regarding the elimination of the SAT. did you note this in the conclusion?
MT, the focus of my comments in this thread has not been on whether or not AA is justified but on whether standardized testing, SAT in this case, is racially biased.
I see the disparity in scores between races/cultures/economic background as a problem not with the tests but rather with the quality of education k-12. This must be fixed. Creating a dual standard will only perpetuate racism and hard feelings between races.
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You know, we are saying the same thing here really.
The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.
The point is that the disparity in test scores leads to a disparity in opportunity and some races are negatively affected.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You know, we are saying the same thing here really.
The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.
The point is that the disparity in test scores leads to a disparity in opportunity and some races are negatively affected.
I agree that there is disparity and that we must look hard for the cause and do whatever we can to fix the problem. It's certainly no simple or easy job but the future of our nation depends upon it.
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midnight Target: The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.
I want to correct you on a technical issue - or rather on using the proper terms. A test is called biased against some group if it tends to underpredict future performance of that group.
Like, if blacks entering the college with lower SATs achieved the same G.P.A.s and graduaton rates as whites, then SATs would be biased against blacks.
Since the lower G.P.S.s and graduation rates of blacks pretty accurately correspond to the lower SAT of the enrolees, we can confidently state that SATs are not biased but are accurate predictors of black performance in college.
Same is true for other tests on relevant subject.
For instance - examination in English language will be biased against chinese physics students since they will get lower grades than whites but the same or better G.P.A. and graduation rates. But the knowlege of English is clearly not very relevant to abilities in physics.
Of course accuracy of the test does not say anything about the cause of the difference in scores - it may well be real discrimination at all stages, etc.
possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.
"Black students from families with incomes above $70,000 a year score lower on the SAT than white students from families with incomes of less than $10,000 a year..."
-- Shelby Steele (http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html), an African-American scholar.
Ph.D. in English from the University of Utah, an M.A. in sociology from Southern Illinois University, and a B.A. in political science from Coe College, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.)
Sounds more like "whatever"...
miko