Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on January 16, 2003, 01:38:40 AM
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Suppose you have a bad guy about 1.5 behind you. Ok, you begin a gradual climbing turn and around 175-200 mph (depending on your a/c and the rate of closure of the pursuing a/c), you roll 180 degrees and pull hard.
Of all the planes in Aces High, which plane gets your nose through the 180 degree fastest?
curly
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The B-17?
SOB
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the one that is 1.5 off my 6.
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Elevator authority
You are joking!? That's government bureacracy gone mad!
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I'm voting for the goon!
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Dont you love when you post a genuine question, and get these type answers?
I dunno the answer. but seems we are asking what plane in AH turns best at initial speed of 180mph ... I would guess something along the lines of an F6F maybe? Spit IX?
Nim
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If I've undertood your post (not likely as usual :p)
it's the combination of 2 mouvement : Roll + Pull
So it will be an averager between a fast roller plane (like the 190) and good turner (Zeke)
My guess would be the zeke ... but I can be wrong :)
I changed my mind I would say Spit with clipped wing.
According to the chart here it should roll very fast at this speed and turn still like a spit I guess.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56784
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Prolly a zero or hurricane..
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I havent tested any of the planes but my money is on the hurricane 1 though the 109e4 would be my second choice.
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snap-roll like that i'd use me CAT from hell or HOG with flaps.....
be careful and practice in F4U...cause it will give ya troubles if done wrong....like a spin of death:D
but if ye a wimp.....use Spit(of course spits do everything well)
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p38 with flip reverse it does
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believe it or not the bf110g-2 can be flipped pretty fast in the vertical
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Flip reverse?
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S!
I would say the spit 9 or even better the F6F. But would you really want to do a gradual turn and climb where you lose speed and distance between you and the enemy? I would roll and dive down then pull up to him. Oh well, just my thoughts :p
Tactical Officer
99TH ASTAG
Swift to Avenge
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zeke
spit V
109F4
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I donno about the F6 but the F4F does it well, very well.
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La7 cause it's so uber
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I've seen P-38s flip 180 degrees in the blink of an eye.
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p 38 and yak , those planes reverse like nothing alse
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FM2, I've done it inside d800.
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At what altitude?
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thx for the responses, guys.
curly
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republicans, pre-election.
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I thot you were going to give the answer curly. :(
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Suppose you have a bad guy about 1.5 behind you. Ok, you begin a gradual climbing turn and around 175-200 mph (depending on your a/c and the rate of closure of the pursuing a/c), you roll 180 degrees and pull hard.
Of all the planes in Aces High, which plane gets your nose through the 180 degree fastest?
curly
Curly,
Elevator authority is only indirectly related to this situation. It is really more a question of instantaneous turn rate combined with pitch rate. Elevator authority is a factor in these but not the sole determining cause...
The turn fighters will have the lowest time to pull through the 180 degrees (I am assuming you are talking about a split S) as they will have the tightest turn radius and highest turn rate, even in the vertical plane. Probably Spit V, hurricane or zeke will win this one.
The E fighters will gain too much speed in the split S and will have a much larger turn radius and lower turn rate...
Cheers,
mako
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His description of what he is looking for was good enough whether he got the nomenclature wrong or not.
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What Blue said :D
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
I am assuming you are talking about a split S
No. I'm not talking about "Get out of Dodge" moves ... I said "you begin a gradual climbing turn" Further, roll rate isn't too important since the bad guy doesn't have guns on you.
I just want to know of the planes you see in the MA which can most efficiently do the third condition (after 1 & 2 have been executed)
1) you are in a gradual climbing turn;
2) you have rolled 180 degrees;
3) exercise full elevator until you are slightly nose down.
curly
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Originally posted by Kanth
I thot you were going to give the answer curly. :(
I "think" it's the p38 Kanth, but I don't know for sure. I know it's not the 190a5 :D
curly
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Fw190d9.
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Originally posted by Furious
Fw190d9.
thats what i was thinking.... the roll would be so fast that the "slight nose down" would be almost instantaniously
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My plane, the one with the tail shot off.
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Originally posted by JB73
thats what i was thinking.... the roll would be so fast that the "slight nose down" would be almost instantaniously
JB, I think you are misunderstanding ... perhaps I am wrong. Imagine the plane which began a slight climbing turn and now it's rolled.
NOW, pull the stick towards you as hard as you can w/o destroying your a/c. Which plane accomplishes this (meaning pulling on the stick until you have reversed your direction) best. I don't believe it's the d9.
curly
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Hi Curly,
A couple of questions please.
Are you keeping the the enemy at the 1.6 the whole
time?
Is your object an escape reversal or attack?
The reason I'm asking is if you are on the attack a chandelle allows you easily get behind the guy which means you really have no rush to reverse and hammer the nails in.
Again, if he's 1.6 and not closing, depending on what yer flying, extend to a better advantage and come on back.
If your on defense thats another story which requires you to do some of that other pilot stuff.
:)
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Originally posted by AKcurly
JB, I think you are misunderstanding ... perhaps I am wrong. Imagine the plane which began a slight climbing turn and now it's rolled.
NOW, pull the stick towards you as hard as you can w/o destroying your a/c. Which plane accomplishes this (meaning pulling on the stick until you have reversed your direction) best. I don't believe it's the d9.
curly
The answer doesn't really change. The aircraft with the best instantaneous and sustained turn rate mix will give you the fastest roll and reversal. A turnfighter will always turn through 180 degrees faster than an E fighter given the same starting conditions. A lower roll rate in the aircraft will not be as big a disadvantage as a low turn rate.
My pics are still the spit V, zeke or hurri.
Also, this does not take into account accelerated stall moves/flicks/warp turns. :)
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Originally posted by GPreddy
His description of what he is looking for was good enough whether he got the nomenclature wrong or not.
Who said anything was wrong with nomenclature? I said that elevator authority wasn't the main consideration, I didn't say he'd used the wrong terms... Oh, I did try to answer his question based on the description too :rolleyes:
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190A8
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Would have to have:
1) The Altitude
2) Ordinance loadout of each plane
3) Fuel loadout of each plane
Past that I'd have to go with the Zeke. :D
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I went back and read your question and thot about it this time.
I'm going to go with the D3A1
sounds like a joke answer but at 200 start, you roll 180 and pull hard you are now operating at super low speed.
all the turn fighters have various rates of roll but the difference I found was the ability to drag their nose under (pulling hard) without stalling into non-manuverability.
The Val will roll slow but the move of the nose from pointing away from your target to pointing to him (the 180 of the turn and not the roll) is the quickest.
what I'm saying is that the varience in the roll rates isn't as big a gap as the varience in the pulling under turn.
And the Val Shines in this area. Minimal stall you can fairly yank your way thru it and it doesn't gain much speed on the down turn driving the turn radius wide.
may sound like a dumb answer but that's what you get from a B&Z plane driver :)
btw this is without consideraton of flaps because that wasn't listed but would greatly help the move in most planes imo.
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That Mako is a smart cookie!
"Beware the lessons of a fighter pilot who would rather fly a slide rule than kick your...[butt]"
Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, USN
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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At 180 mph in the P38, even with flaps (not full flap - you need to be under 150 mph for full flap in the 38), if you pull full elevator very quickly, in my experience you'll get snapped around in wingstall (if you have stall limiter off). Not sure how fast you'll get around with full elevator with the limiter on.
PS: What is this "flip reversal" I've noticed being mentioned in regards to the P38? It sounds to me like some sort of intentional wingstall to snap the plane around, but it would seem impossible to just instantly reverse and travel in the other direction, since at some point in this maneuever your speed would approach zero, and that could send you into a nasty flat spin if you aren't oriented properly.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
The answer doesn't really change. The aircraft with the best instantaneous and sustained turn rate mix will give you the fastest roll and reversal. A turnfighter will always turn through 180 degrees faster than an E fighter given the same starting conditions. A lower roll rate in the aircraft will not be as big a disadvantage as a low turn rate.
Mako, roll rate has nothing to do with the question I asked. I thought I made that clear --- guess not. The question was AFTER the 180 degree roll, which plane will permit you to pull though quickest.
I'm not saying it's smart or the correct thing to do, but that was the question.
curly
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Hi Curly,
A couple of questions please.
Are you keeping the the enemy at the 1.6 the whole
time?
Is your object an escape reversal or attack?
Hi Ren,
No, he's closing ... fast enough that he won't be following you through the move unless he's very alert.
Escape reversal.
curly
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P47 d11 gets my vote.
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The Sopwith Camel??:confused:
Karaya2
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P51D – but at about 300 Mph and one notch of flaps.
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AKcurly:
The answer is still the same :). The a/c with the best instantaneous and sustained turn performance characteristics will give you the quickest reversal.
Mako mentioned the Spit V, Hurri, and Zeke. Maybe the FM2 though I think the hurri or zeke are probably the winners. The Val could be a darkhorse though from the reports that I see people mention on the performance of the plane.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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AKcurly, due the very low speed, your example has little to do with elevator authority.
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If the enemy is at d1.6k the a6m2 can turn 540 degrees to go for the HO.
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hurri or zeke
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
AKcurly, due the very low speed, your example has little to do with elevator authority.
It seems to me that at very slow speed elevator authority would be most observable.
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< curly>>
Loaded question. :)
Are you saying you're gonna chose one of the above suggested rides because of one maneuver? Last time I saw you up you were flying a FogyWhoops.
Somehow I don't see you chasing around the arena in zeke just because you think your getting a slow reversal from your FW or any other plane for that matter.
Personally, I'd suggest you choose your all around ride then work on its handling characterics so that you play to its strengths against your opponents weaknesses. It's just as important to fly every other plane available so you know, without a doubt, each ones strengths and weakness.
I hope that doesn't sound like an easy out. We can discuss if offline if ya want.
Ren
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
< curly>>
Loaded question. :)
Are you saying you're gonna chose one of the above suggested rides because of one maneuver? Last time I saw you up you were flying a FogyWhoops.
Somehow I don't see you chasing around the arena in zeke just because you think your getting a slow reversal from your FW or any other plane for that matter.
Personally, I'd suggest you choose your all around ride then work on its handling characterics so that you play to its strengths against your opponents weaknesses. It's just as important to fly every other plane available so you know, without a doubt, each ones strengths and weakness.
I hope that doesn't sound like an easy out. We can discuss if offline if ya want.
Ren
Heck no, Ren. I just want to know the answer. Man, it's tough to generate a little information around here. :)
curly
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IMHO if you got yerself into the situation where the guys is gonna close with you (See Ren's normal flying :))I'd suggest you roll the wings left, 20 degrees (FW?) pull up a lil above the horizon just enuff to roll 120 dgrees and pull back thru in a tuck under back into him then extend from there. It's a modified pitch back that is not as high. If the nose doesn't get too high you lose little or no speed in the reversal nor much altitude. The roll with gentle pull up then the roll over and hard pull puts you out of plane with the other guy and spoils his shot. You remain just ahead of his HO shot and his rounds should go harmlessly behind you. Remember you're not that slow (I would hope)and neither is he so don't rule out the the possibility of an HO and jog accordingly.
The nose low pull is an extremely tight turn and with a little practice you'll find out how much initial "up" you'll need to remain level with bad guy on your reversal. BTW, if he goes into a high pitch back you will easily walk away as he slows.
How this is helpful. :D
This disertation and 99 cents might get you a cuppa java.
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Even I don't get the question. Why even mention an enemy aircraft if you just want to know what can pull a reversal from an inverted position at such-&-such an airspeed fastest? But speaking of elevator authority, has anyone rolled inverted and then pressed your joystick forward to attempt an outside loop? Something doesn't seem right to me about how this plays out in AH.
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<<< But speaking of elevator authority, has anyone rolled inverted and then pressed your joystick
forward to attempt an outside loop? Something doesn't seem right to me about how this plays
out in AH.>>>
Not sure whacha mean, Puke. Last time I tried one it seemed ok. Around 2 G's, easing off over the top was clean and aligned.
Ren
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Originally posted by AKIron
It seems to me that at very slow speed elevator authority would be most observable.
This is not the case. For example, to flip on the vertical with a 190, you will use a lot of rudder and ailerons and you will force a "stall" that will end in a quick nose down. The 190 will go nose down quickly due the lack of lift, not due the excess of elevator authority.
With other planes, like spits, forcing that stall is much more difficult due the excess of lift. So, in these cases, you will need to "loop" using elevator instead of abruptly stall the plane to go nose down.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
<<< But speaking of elevator authority, has anyone rolled inverted and then pressed your joystick
forward to attempt an outside loop? Something doesn't seem right to me about how this plays
out in AH.>>>
Not sure whacha mean, Puke. Last time I tried one it seemed ok. Around 2 G's, easing off over the top was clean and aligned.
Ren
Ren, he's talking about the symmetry in the flight model. 1. Roll your plane 180 degrees; 2. Press forward on your j/s; 3. It climbs as well this way as it does in the normal manner.
curly
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
This is not the case. For example, to flip on the vertical with a 190, you will use a lot of rudder and ailerons and you will force a "stall" that will end in a quick nose down. The 190 will go nose down quickly due the lack of lift, not due the excess of elevator authority.
With other planes, like spits, forcing that stall is much more difficult due the excess of lift. So, in these cases, you will need to "loop" using elevator instead of abruptly stall the plane to go nose down.
OK, I can see that. But now that you've got the nose down don't you need the elevator to pull it back up to complete the 180 that Curly first mentioned?
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I'd vote for the A6M-2 or the Hurri 1, if the manuever can be done with all positve Gees. If you must roll completely before using the elevator (killing the float carb engine) later models of each may do better.
eskimo
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Just wanted to point out again what Mako was mentioning about elevator authority. It's a non-factor since for most of the a/c we fly in AH we can easily generate enough stick force to change the aoa well beyond critical aoa (beyond max turn performance and the flight envelope).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by AKIron
OK, I can see that. But now that you've got the nose down don't you need the elevator to pull it back up to complete the 180 that Curly first mentioned?
AKIron, once you have forced that "stall", your nose is pointing to the ground, so, you have already performed the 180 turn in the vertical. This is a hammerhead, and it involves little elevator authority. When your nose is pointing to the ground, you'll need to use a bit of all your controls just to center the pursuer.
BTW, you can also perform a wingover, not so drastical as a hammerhead, and you will perform the same 180 vertical turn with little use of elevators.
In both maneouvers, hammerhead and wingover, rudder and aileron control are far more important than elevators.
Elevator authority really takes place when you have an excess of lift, for example, performing the same 180 verticall turn but diving instead of climbing. That is, diving near vertically and then pulling out as hard as you can in a vertical climb.
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Guess I misunderstood. Was thinking the 180 applied to beginning of the manuver rather than from a vertical nose position.
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Originally posted by AKIron
But now that you've got the nose down don't you need the elevator to pull it back up to complete the 180 that Curly first mentioned?
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Elevator authority really takes place when you have an excess of lift, for example, ............................. ...............
That is, diving near vertically and then pulling out as hard as you can in a vertical climb.
Same thing. (except Iron, the beginning of the 180 doesn't start at the nosedown position it starts at the inverted position moves thru the nose down and back to the level flight position to be completed (the S in split S))
point being that the more airflow passing along the elevator the more it's going to be of use.
stall = not real usefull
dive for a bit then pull back = useful.
and unless it's in a stall, it's the elevator that will be moving the nose vertically.
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I think Otis is the elevator authority here in the US.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Mako, roll rate has nothing to do with the question I asked. I thought I made that clear --- guess not. The question was AFTER the 180 degree roll, which plane will permit you to pull though quickest.
I'm not saying it's smart or the correct thing to do, but that was the question.
curly
Curly, your original post was:
Suppose you have a bad guy about 1.5 behind you. Ok, you begin a gradual climbing turn and around 175-200 mph (depending on your a/c and the rate of closure of the pursuing a/c), you roll 180 degrees and pull hard.
Of all the planes in Aces High, which plane gets your nose through the 180 degree fastest?
curly
Sorry if I misunderstood, thought you were talking about reversing the direction of your turn by rolling through 180 degrees and then pulling back on the stick. In any event, my answer is unchanged from:
A turnfighter will always turn through 180 degrees faster than an E fighter given the same starting conditions.
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If I am flying inverted and need to finish the Split-S, my choice is to chop throttle, drop down a notch or two of flaps, and pull hard on the Zeke's stick for the fastest reversal in that example. I am not counting the actual roll to invert the plane, just to pull a downward quickest, tightest 180 using elevator only input.