Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKIron on January 17, 2003, 08:43:02 AM
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Time for a new thread. Many outside the US have no idea the disaster that our public school system is becomming, but don't let that stop you from offering your opinion.
Why is it that the self proclaimed defenders of minority rights (liberals/democrats/lefties/fill-in-the-blank) are so adamantly against education vouchers?
Isn't it self-evident that allowing a low income family the opportunity to choose between a public school that is barely going through the motions or a private school that is far more directly accountable to the parents better for everyone?
The very people that decry the unfairness of the educational system vehemently denounce the obvious solution. Someone here is playing the fool.
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libs dems and lefties don't want to give up the indocrtinization aspect and social engineering opportunity that public school provides. Dems don't want to lose control of a voting blocjk and huge chunk of tax money.
At the root of it.... all those groups really hate human beings.
lazs
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a) Teachers Unions who are very powerful in Democratic politics who fear loosing money that would go to voucher schools.
b) Fanatic left wing fear that these kids, and thus public funds, might end up in private religious schools.
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the obvious solution or the easiest solution?
The obvious solution is to get those public schools "just going through the motions" to give our kids a quality education. That starts at the top level and works its way down. Meaning the state has to get more involved, the individual school district leaders (and community leaders) have to provide strong direction and guidance (which should be received and emulated by the principals) and the teachers obviously have to do their part in trying to engage the children in good curricula and instruction. Instead of spending state money to send children to a private school, spend that money to upgrade the school's facilities and technology. Help the teachers instruct with technology (educational software that is adaptive and can gear itself to the individual needs of a child.) I haven't met a teacher that didn't care about their students (umm, not including at the university level.) You don't get into the public school profession for any other reason than you enjoy teaching. There's very little money in it, and it's a VERY demanding job.
For the un-PC addendum... take the problem children out of the general classrooms and get them into environments that most benefit them (whether it be an ESE class, or a more disciplined class for "miscreant-like" kids.) Get the classes smaller and less disruptive. Give the teachers a chance to instruct.
That's the obvious solution. Shipping kids off to a private school isn't a solution, it's just a patch job.
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Nifty, your obvious solution is the same crap that has been failing for 30 years.
<<..the state has to get more involved>> :rolleyes:
ra
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out of 10 public high school teachers bet you can't find 2 who vote republican, heck out of 100
my youngest (jr in hs), tells me how his teachers are always voicing their criticism of bush and conservation in general.
goes beyond the teachers, just pick up a history text book and give it a read to see the left agenda
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Why is the public school system in sucha bad condition in the US?
In the UK the state education system is fantastic in some parts, and diabolical in many others. This was caused by chronic underfunding of the education system over a long period (well, you can't spend too much on education can you? kinda like health? All the money in the world still isn't enough).
The trend in Britain is towards grant maintained selective schools. These schools are funded (if I understand it correctly) by a block grant from central government. A board is elected or appointed as an executive, and it is permitted to select students for entry, none of whom need to pay.
The idea is that schools with specialisms (like IT or even agriculture and art) will apply for grant maintained status, and will then be given a great deal of autonomy in how they spend their money.
Coupled with this is a very close scutiny of the schools, staff and pupils by a state appointed body (OFSTED) that publishes the results in public forum.
Whether it will work or not, who knows, but education is in crisis. State school teachers are no longer a respected profession it seems, parents are more litigious than ever and seem to abrograte the responsibility for bringing up their their children to the school (which after all is only meant to educate them, not be a parent to them).
Any scheme that will assist poor smart kids in getting into the best environment for their gifts to flourish gets my vote. As does any scheme that allows the poor not as smart kids get a decent education. If people wish to pay for their kids to go to a private school, then they should be free to do so, and private schools should be encouraged to offer scholarships to those who cant afford the fees.
Some kids will never 'do' school and can be directed into more practical pursuits that suit their dispositions.
Ultimately, all 'one size fits all' methods will fail, because patently one size does not. But at the other extreme - an education system that caters to each and every students individual needs is clearly out there in lala land.
A balance can be struck between the two, with room for private and specialist education services too.
But parents must instill in their children positive thoughts and emotions about school, and in turn the schools must provide a stimulating environment for the kids.
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Originally posted by Nifty
I haven't met a teacher that didn't care about their students (umm, not including at the university level.) You don't get into the public school profession for any other reason than you enjoy teaching. There's very little money in it, and it's a VERY demanding job.
Are you a teacher Nifty, if you are. However, my sister who now teaches in a small town in Texas taught for several years in Dallas and Atlanta. Her experience about caring teachers is far from yours.
Damn Lazs, I'm beginning to like you. ;)
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bounder... actually you can spend too much on education... the states and counties that spend the most in the U.S. have the worst records and the states that spend the least have some of the best records.
Public schools think that they are in the social engineering bussiness and not in the teach the children skills bussiness. As was noted... 90% of teachers are lefties. Garbage in.... garbage out.
lazs
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My wife teached Spanish in a "Inner City" school here in Detroit. The schools got a lot of money from the State..computers, books etc-in fact- they had better facilities than most suburban schools. Oh ya-new building too + hand selected high-motivated teachers. What was the result? The kids didn't learn a thing. Thier mothers and fathers are all cracks-heads or worse. The kids didn't have a chance. Infact-one of her studients missed a week of class once-so she called about it. Turned out her mother was stabbed by her father and killed. Once she told a parent that his kid was disruptive-so what did he do? He just started beating the kid. I mean beating him with a closed fist. My wife ran off and call the cops-turned out he was wanted for attempted murder...kids don't have a chance down there........Once she hired an actor to make an appearence as an Easter-Bunny(4th grade class). Well the guy arrives in costume and is held up by a fourth grader with a knife......yes thats right-the Easter Bunny was held up by a 4th grader..........The Dems want to throw money at the problem but that doesn't help. The problem is much much deeper.
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Vouchers are a short sighted "solution".
First, there will not be enough money in vouchers to provide equivilent education. The rich will use vouchers to give themselves a break on private school tuition, the poor will still be unable to send their kids to private schools. Additionally the money for these vouchers will be pulled from the public school system creating a furher degradation of the system and reducing the poor's educational access even further.
I have seen good and bad in the public school system. The key is community involvement. Not money, not rap music, and not politics. When parents and the community get involved the public school system shines. And Yes! I do practice what I preach. I will be presenting an award to a local high school next month for excellence and inovative education.
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Are education voutchers a reality at this point, or are they just an idea? Anyone know where I can find more information? Thanks!
SOB
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The key is community involvement. Not money, not rap music, and not politics.
This I can agree with.
How better to do it than with a locally run independent private school? We all know that bureaucracy is an anchor that usually grows larger than the boat.
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community involvement and state involvement are not mutually exclusive. We're a public school district and we encourage the community to get involved and come to school board meetings. Our school board members and superintendent are elected positions.
ra, you're right. It hasn't worked for the past 30 years, because the states are not involved in the RIGHT ways. When the state gets involved in the right ways, and the district administrators respond in the appropriate manner, that vision trickles down all the way to the students in the public schools. Florida is starting to get the hang of it, at least some districts are. Ol' Jeb is on the right track with accountability, but he's a bit off in his implementation, though that's not the point here. I speak from experience as I've worked at this district for over 3 years now. I've seen the changes first hand. The state has gotten more involved in accountability with the schools. The schools in our district have shown vast improvement in standardized test scores. The schools have taken the money for technology that the state (and federal gov't) has offered and put it to good use. Kids now get individualized work on their deficient areas as well as the typical generalized instruction that teachers give. The administration of the district is committed to the students and their achievement. The district aggressively pursues grants that can further the training of our teachers and can put more technology in the classrooms to assist the teachers in their jobs.
It is working right here, and it starts at the top with the state and works its way down. The old cliche of "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" holds true. If any part of the chain (from the state down through individual teachers) isn't committed to the children, then the problems appear (or won't go away.) The district next to us has issues, because the district level administrators seem to worry more about their own jobs and agendas than the kids. Only a county line separates this district from that district and our schools get overall higher "grades" than their schools. (it's a shame, I live in the OTHER district.)
AKIron, I'm not a teacher. I'm a programmer that's been contracted out to this school district. I work with the teachers and administrators that write the grants and provide professional development to the teachers. So I see first hand the behind the scenes workings of this school district. The administrators and teachers I've met in this district (I've met a LOT of them) are all committed to giving the best quality education to the children of this district. The results in our district? According to the Florida school grading scale, we had one "C" school and no "D" or "F" schools. We had D and F schools when I first got here. Those kids and schools were targeted and are better and continuing to improve. So I don't see a need to put kids in a private school. I see a need to lift up the failing schools to a better level.
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I haven't met a teacher that didn't care about their students (umm, not including at the university level.)
I'd say 50% of university tutors don't give a shreck about their students - that's from my personal experience of 4 years, so it's not scientific. ;)
Bounder - there is no respect for teachers these days. Of the the four uni friends that went into teaching on graduation 2 years ago, all but 1 have quit and found work elsewhere, that is beter paid with shorter hours. An ex-girlfriend studied for her teaching qualification at my uni, during my final year. She told me of teaching some of bad schools around Durham, of being punched in the stomach - all sorts of crap. When I was at school, only recently since I'm 24 y/o, no one did that sort of thing. They might have pushed the boundaries with student teachers a little, but violence was out of the question.
My answer: bring back caning.
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Vouchers would be great. Nothing like a little free market competition to make public schools more competitive and 'trim the fat'.
After dealing with this for the last 13 years (3 kids, oldest graduates this year) I don't think the problem is money.
If we gave them more money, they would just start more special programs when the economy is good and they have extra, then begin to feel entitled to that cash and when the economy goes down start crying for more money.
Right now they are talking about ending the school year a couple months early, due to lack of funding (they already attend about 20 days less than when I was a kid & the days are shorter, maybe 20% are 1/2 days).
Next week my youngest daughter is going on a 'field trip' to Mt. Hood to play in the snow. WTF?!?! We are having a special election right now to take a 3-year increase in income tax to cover the tax 'shortage'.
Maybe the funding would go farther if they used the education funding for education.
Get rid of the political indoctrination crap. And other business that has nothing to do with education, and a lot to do with turning kids into little PC sheep.
Here is just a few of the huge wastes of time and money.
1. D.A.R.E program- they say it's funded by the police (who also want more money) but when the dare program is going you have a teacher sitting on her bellybutton not teaching, and a class full of kids not learning. It costs us the same to have them there as any other day but they aren't learning. All this is, is propaganda to keep this stupid 'war on drugs' going, (another huge waste of $$ but that’s another rant)
2. Various touchy-feely emotional crap. One of my kids actually had a class called 'the circle’ for about 1/2 hour a day the class would sit in a circle and go from kid to kid, when your turn came you would complement someone else in the class. As a member of the work force in this country I can tell you there is no shortage of suck-asses in this country, don’t train any more!!
3. ESL- I know this will be a sore spot with many, but here goes. We need to declare English as the official language of this country. All business should be done in English. If you don't speak the language, you should learn it. I would never move to another country without either learning the language or expecting the price of a translator to come from my wallet. I do believe we should fund class to teach immigrants English. However, this should not come from our kids school fund. It could partially be funded through the money we could save, by not having to print every gov't notice in 20 different languages. The rest could come from the dept. of immigration, they should teach all immigrants to speak English and when they run out of funding and can't afford to teach anymore then stop letting those that require teaching in until next years funding arrives.
4. Field trips should be for educational purpose only- when I was a kid we went places like museums of science, art, and natural history. We went to the zoo, state capital, and the forestry center. My kids have a trip to play in the snow, and field trips to go shopping at the mall (not only are they wasting my tax dollars but I'm supposed to provide additional cash for shopping)
5. Kids with no intention of learning- we guarantee the right to an education, that shouldn't mean we force you to take advantage of it. We should have different classes in the same subject. You could have your basic class where you learn. If you can't or wont, control your behavior you can go to a class with others who can't behave so you can distract each other. The kids who want to learn can have a teacher who can spend there time teaching and the rest can have a teacher who is dealing with kids who pull that kind of crap. And if they can't stay out of trouble in that class show them the door.
6. Drop outs & being held back- nobody wants to admit it. It’s not politically correct, but some people are just stupid. They don't and never will have the mental capacity to complete highschool level work (where it should be not where it is). Why do we waste our money and their time trying to convince them to stick it out? It cheapens the value of a diploma for the kids who earn it and wastes the time of everyone involved. If you can pass the requirements for each grade, you move on. If not you take this year again. After a kid hits 18-20 yr. old in the 6th grade, we should probably figure that’s about the best he can do. Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it’s only to serve as an example to others. Your not doing him any favors by keeping him in school, he could be working at Wal-Mart.
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yep... no way that a voucher system could cost even half of what public schools do... No way that a voucher system wouldn't increase overall academic achievement by at least 20-100%.
lazs
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based on what, lazs? you have sources for the economical impacts?
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based on the the results and costs of both private and public schools currently. What it costs per student and what results are achieved. A study in NY with 100 low achievers proved that a private school could improve even thier achievement level and... at a fraction of what public schools spend.
lazs
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The worst thing we have done in this country is reduce funding for the extracurricular activities.
Arts
Sports
Clubs
etc.
For example. A girl tries out and is successful in her bid to be a cheerleader. Her parents must now shell out over $900 for uniforms and other items, not to mention cost of training camps etc.
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... no way that a voucher system could cost even half of what public schools do...
lazs
Well, that makes sense Lazs because a voucher system would only educate half as many kids. The parents that want to send their kid to a private school already do. Really, it's not that expensive- bout three grand tuition to a good private high school.
Pulling money out of public schools will deteroriate public education to the point where the only way to get an education will be in private schools- now who wants to be the first to open a private school in Watts?
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The parents that want to send their kid to a private school already do.
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are you high?? where the hell do you live? anybody in my area would rather have their kids in a private school. none of them can afford it. I've checked into it and it would cost me about 10-12 k per year in tuition alone to send my kids to private school. that doesn't even include books, uniforms, and other supplys. all this on top of the already high cost of raising kids.
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the public schools in fairfax county, VA are fantastic.
the only people who send their kids to private schools in fairfax county are the very religious & snobs. other public school systems should just emulate fairfax county, VA schools
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umm, Airhead. It's Uncle Earnie and fiddle about, unless you did that intentionally, in which case I can't place Albert.
you're right tho, kinda gives new insight into the inspiration for that part of the "opera."
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I wouldn't raise a family in watts but.... If there was a demand there would be a school. I believe that even with half of what we spend per student the private school industry would be competing for your child in every city.
public schools are a crime against humanity.
lazs
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Originally posted by whgates3
the public schools in fairfax county, VA are fantastic.
the only people who send their kids to private schools in fairfax county are the very religious & snobs. other public school systems should just emulate fairfax county, VA schools
Other public school systems would kill for Fairfax County's tax base- it is one of the richest counties in the USA--teachers are paid well and the school standards are pretty high. Probably not something that other counties, say PG county as an example, could emulate.
dh
(Langley)
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Other public school systems would kill for Fairfax County's tax base- it is one of the richest counties in the USA--teachers are paid well and the school standards are pretty high. Probably not something that other counties, say PG county as an example, could emulate.
It isn't a question of money, it's a question of the quality of the community. In Fairfax there is a higher level of education among parents than in most other areas. That reflects on the attitude toward education, and on the standards for public schools. No amount of government involvement can create that attitude. Fairfax is a good example of how public school systems reflect the community. In less prosperous communities the schools are crap no matter how much money is pumped into them, because there is so much community apathy. So letting parents in those communities have vouchers would give their kids a chance at a real education somewhere else. Public schools are failing to educate kids all over the country and have been failing for decades. The best thing a parent can do is get their kids out of failed schools and into successful schools, and vouchers would make this expensive proposition much more attainable to poor parents who care about their kids' education. Parents should not be forced to send their kids to schools which are known to be failing.
ra
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SO I hear they are trying to get away from test cause they are not fair to minorites?
Is this true?
I hear everyone passes no mater what? Is that true?
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Originally posted by ra
It isn't a question of money, it's a question of the quality of the community. In Fairfax there is a higher level of education among parents than in most other areas.
In less prosperous communities the schools are crap no matter how much money is pumped into them, because there is so much community apathy. So letting parents in those communities have vouchers would give their kids a chance at a real education somewhere else.
The best thing a parent can do is get their kids out of failed schools and into successful schools, and vouchers would make this expensive proposition much more attainable to poor parents who care about their kids' education. Parents should not be forced to send their kids to schools which are known to be failing.
ra
Ok so money isn't the only reason that the schools are good, but I challenge you to find a rich county that does not have a good school system. ;)
I'm of a mixed mind about the vouchers; on one hand, it seems like a good idea--send your kid to a better school for the same money it costs to send them to a bad school, but on the other hand, what happens to the schools vacated by the voucher users? Does the bad school just go into a death spiral that leads to its closure?
Seems like it would be easier to fix the "bad" schools than remove a school from the community.
dh
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Originally posted by Horn
Other public school systems would kill for Fairfax County's tax base- it is one of the richest counties in the USA--teachers are paid well and the school standards are pretty high. Probably not something that other counties, say PG county as an example, could emulate.
dh
(Langley)
plenty of other counties have similar tax base (generally those of simlar wealth are of similar education, discounting professional entertainers) & far lesser schools...what else is different about fairfax co?