Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on January 17, 2003, 08:48:55 PM
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Well, I saw my old friend, Bill, at college the other day. 1 year ago, he was called up to active duty (navy reserve). He was stationed near camp x-ray in Gitmo bay. We were talking a bit, catching up on stuff, and I asked him about what was going on down there. He said his job was master of arms , some type of security detail. Then he went on to tell me about how some of the higher ranking enlisted navy personel are abusing the lower ranking guys. Bill told me about one incident where an E2 or E3 forgot to sign some sheet in the barracks, and an E5 (or something similar) exploded on him, screaming and cussing at him in front of the other troops. Bill said this kind of stuff is starting to become common place now.
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Awww poor baby.
Yer pal woulda lasted about 45 seconds in the army I served in 30 years ago.
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Maybe your friend Bill should have taken that poor abused E-2 for a walk on the beach to console him and calm him down while the rest of the E-5s enjoyed themselves abusing lower ranking sailors in the barracks.
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Awww poor baby.
Yer pal woulda lasted about 45 seconds in the army I served in 30 years ago.
Why is that? Because my friend complained about some incompetent NCO who doesn't know how to treat people? Todays troops are more educated and politically savy than ever. No need to treat them like mindless neanderthals. That style of leadership should have been thrown out after the 'old' army lost 2 wars. Theres also no reason to berate someone over something minor, especially in a non-combat zone.
The army you were in 30 years ago had a morale level lower than whale crap and was a source of national embarrassment. It wasn't until the first Gulf War that a sense of pride was restored in our military.
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in the navy as a e3 a trip behind a equop locker is about all a e5 would get hollering at me. the previous posters are right you got to get tough/mean it is nothing like the movies. well its alot like prison moves :)
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Originally posted by Airhead
Maybe your friend Bill should have taken that poor abused E-2 for a walk on the beach to console him and calm him down while the rest of the E-5s enjoyed themselves abusing lower ranking sailors in the barracks.
LOL, That E2 needs to grow some balls.
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What a stupid thread. What provoked you to start it.
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Were you there handsomehunk? If not then STFU.
You've been listening to too much republican propaganda.
"The army you were in 30 years ago had a morale level lower than whale crap and was a source of national embarrassment. It wasn't until the first Gulf War that a sense of pride was restored in our military."
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Your not even angry weasel, your just a characterless fool groping on a subject that gives you the most attention per thread your mindless search, paste, and post topics off the internet can give.
How you can dominate and spam an entire BBS General Forum Category with your insipid political pissing is beyond me. Makes the checksix bbs seem inviting.
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The army you were in 30 years ago had a morale level lower than whale crap....
You; child, are a tool. No, let me expand on that... you are a clueless media tool. .
You expect the morale of the nations Army to be good when their lives are being squandered as barganing chips? Do you think the morale on Omaha Beach was good when the troops were pinned in the sand and surf? Morale has toejam to to with unit pride, loyalty and duty, boy. The 'war' in Vietnam would have been over in months if we were allowed to fight it as a WAR.
and was a source of national embarrassment.
Item...the Army I served in was neither a national embarrasement nor imcompetent. The leaders we served.. the POLITICAL leaders we served were the freakin incompetent embarassment.
Our military has always had a very high sense of pride.. it was and IS the best military on the face of this planet, man for man. The sense of pride in itself as a nation may have been restored by the Gulf conflict, the pride in the military has never been in doubt. Confidence in our political leaders is always in doubt.
Todays troops are more educated and politically savy than ever.
What? Surely you need to recheck you airsupply. An 18 year old infantry man in 1969 ain't one bit smarter than an 18 year old infantryman in 2003. Both can reason, evaluate a press release and compare it with conditions present in front of his nose. Speaking of which, thats you lower intestine if front of yours, re-read the first sentance in this paragraph.
No need to treat them like mindless neanderthals. That style of leadership should have been thrown out after the 'old' army lost 2 wars. Theres also no reason to berate someone over something minor, especially in a non-combat zone.
Ah the crux.. listen up, puppy. The military is not a debating society, our military has not lost a war yet, and berating a pinhead E-2 that does not correctly comply with proccedure is the LEAST the E-5 could have done and kept HIS stripes.
Tell yer pal to get the hell outta my military. I don't want rutabagas guarding my nation.
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Are you still mad at me?
Maybe you should go jerk-off over your collection of 15 y.o. camel toe pictures if I'm bothering you.
Does it bother you that much that people find the topics I post on interesting...or do you just need a little attention?
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See?
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Actually, I happen to prize Creamo's collection of camel-toe art.
Quality camel-toe is always in short supply.
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damn double post
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Theres also no reason to berate someone over something minor, especially in a non-combat zone.
roadkill! that is especially the time when ya berate someone for screwing up.
It's way too late to try and train someone properly in a combat zone, that individual is gonna get killed or worse yet cause others to die by his un-disciplined inability to follow EXACT orders.
It's all about "attention to detail" it's the "minor" things that get people killed, most deaths in combat aren't caused by gigantic screw-ups, but by itty bitty little details that the deadman didn't focus on.
Sounds to me like the Petty Officer 2nd Class in your story is concerned and cares about the men he commands, and wants them to survive in one piece if thrown in to the meat grinder called combat.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Quality camel-toe is always in short supply.
I hear ya. http://www.cameltoe.org/
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Betcha the E2 will not forget to sign next time ;)
The E2 will survive.
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terms like "instant willing obedience to orders" comes to mind.
I remember the first ime I heard someone say "why" in the Marines. Poor bastard had to make three trips to the dentist to ge back to normal.
It's my thinking (as a former NCO) if this little turn can't get a freaking sign in sheet right, what is he going to diddly up when bullets are flying? How many people are going to die because of him? This sounds bad, but this how you have to think. There is no such thing as a minor infraction.
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(http://www.cameltoe.org/images/MacinToe.jpg)
Sorry creamo, I couldn't find one of your look-a-like Richard Simmons.
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heh, my post cut deep, didnt it.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Why is that? Because my friend complained about some incompetent NCO who doesn't know how to treat people? Todays troops are more educated and politically savy than ever. No need to treat them like mindless neanderthals. That style of leadership should have been thrown out after the 'old' army lost 2 wars. Theres also no reason to berate someone over something minor, especially in a non-combat zone.
The army you were in 30 years ago had a morale level lower than whale crap and was a source of national embarrassment. It wasn't until the first Gulf War that a sense of pride was restored in our military.
david, I hereby award you the first ever Elfenwolf Troll Award. This Award is given whenever a poster manages to spew horseshit that is actually taken seriously by the majority of the Community. Some may hate you for this, but I admire your artform. And who can say trolling isn't art? After all, they eat babies in China and call that art.
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Originally posted by Airhead
After all, they eat babies in China and call that art.
No they dont eat them, they just kill them, and call that "abortion".
But that is something they do in lots of places outside China too.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No they dont eat them, they just kill them, and call that "abortion".
But that is something they do in lots of places outside China too.
The award has already been given steve, try again next week ;)
-Sik
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shh dont ruin it.
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You; child, are a tool. No, let me expand on that... you are a clueless media tool. .
You expect the morale of the nations Army to be good when their lives are being squandered as barganing chips? Do you think the morale on Omaha Beach was good when the troops were pinned in the sand and surf? Morale has toejam to to with unit pride, loyalty and duty, boy. The 'war' in Vietnam would have been over in months if we were allowed to fight it as a WAR.
So morale was horrible. But unit pride was great right? Yeah, thats why there were so many fratricides from 70-73.
Item...the Army I served in was neither a national embarrasement nor imcompetent.
Oh yes, everyone was very pleased with the military. This is why people were spitting, throwing urine, and even shooting returning combat veterans. In fact, everyone was so pleased with our military that returning veterans were immediately issued civilian clothing and told not to ride public transportation. As for imcompetency, that varied greatly from unit to unit.
What? Surely you need to recheck you airsupply. An 18 year old infantry man in 1969 ain't one bit smarter than an 18 year old infantryman in 2003.
In 1969 the ranks were filled with some volunteers, and those who couldn't get out of the draft. Over half the people drafted were somehow able to evade serving. This equates to the lower socio-economic sections of the population serving. Today its guys who are college students looking for tuition deferment that are serving. Education and intelligence are two different things. Today's trooper is much more educated than the Vietnam era soldier.
Ah the crux.. listen up, puppy. The military is not a debating society, our military has not lost a war yet, and berating a pinhead E-2 that does not correctly comply with proccedure is the LEAST the E-5 could have done and kept HIS stripes.
Tell yer pal to get the hell outta my military. I don't want rutabagas guarding my nation.
This wasn't in boot camp. It was some low life individual, like yourself, who didn't know how to treat his troops. This was not some isolated incident either. The U.S. has quite a few low quality NCOs running around screaming, probably not knowing which end of an M16 is up. And where do you get that these are the views of my friend? Bill is a veteran of the first Gulf War (aircraft armorer on a carrier) who was just serving out the rest of his time in the reserves. But if you want, I can pull in a whole list of sources to show that U.S. NCOs have been degrading in quality.
roadkill! that is especially the time when ya berate someone for screwing up.
If I recall correctly, didn't you serve in the Soviet Army milnko? I can understand with conscription and such that your army would have had some uncooperative individuals. But the U.S. military is all volunteer, and this means that troopers actually want to know how to do their job.
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Damn David, You just keep going and going. OK, to your Elfenwolf Troll Medal I hereby award the Misinformed By History Books "V" for BBS Valor Pin to be affixed upon your Elfenwolf Troll Medal. Man if you keep this up you might be the Audie Murphy of the bbs.
LOL I would comment on your statements but hey, what's the point? You already know it all anyway.
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The 'war' in Vietnam would have been over in months if we were allowed to fight it as a WAR.
Elaborate, Hangtime. I've heard this many times. I've heard that the stockpiles of SAMs in Hochi Minh City were off-limits until they were placed in their launchers, but what other changes would have been made? Perhaps a more ruthless treatment of the local population? Genuinely interested.
...our military has not lost a war yet...
And Vietnam?
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Originally posted by davidpt40
If I recall correctly, didn't you serve in the Soviet Army milnko? I can understand with conscription and such that your army would have had some uncooperative individuals. But the U.S. military is all volunteer, and this means that troopers actually want to know how to do their job.
???????? I dunno where ya got that idea.
US Navy 1981-1989
Aviation Machinist's Mate 2nd Class
assigned VS-32 aboard CV66 USS America and NS Sandpoint Naval Brig, Seattle, Wash .
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I think he was thinking of miko2d who was in Ukranian army.
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second class after 8 years? what the hell did you do?
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VS31 TOPCATS ALL THE WAY BABY !!!!
E4, 4 years here ;)
troops are more educated and politically savy than ever.
You must be talking about different navy then.
Half the dumbshits i came out of the bootcamp with couldn't read on a elementary school level :)
Heck, one guy couldn't dress himself !!!
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Dowding.. we should have paved the north... they wouldn't have any place to hide then.
lazs
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Originally posted by weazel
Does it bother you that much that people find the topics I post on interesting...or do you just need a little attention?
Do you really think most people find your topics interesting?
I think your ego is inflated.
I suggest a poll...
Who thinks weazels topics are interesting?
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"Today its guys who are college students looking for tuition deferment that are serving."
And then:
"The U.S. has quite a few low quality NCOs running around screaming, probably not knowing which end of an M16 is up."
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i know a lot of nitwit college students
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weazel where you born this stupid ? or did it take years of training to get this dumb?
LOL what a MORON!!
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Oh yes, everyone was very pleased with the military. This is why people were spitting, throwing urine, and even shooting returning combat veterans.
Sorry, who exactly was the national embarrassment again?
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Hiya Dowding!
Elaborate, Hangtime. I've heard this many times. I've heard that the stockpiles of SAMs in Hochi Minh City were off-limits until they were placed in their launchers, but what other changes would have been made? Perhaps a more ruthless treatment of the local population? Genuinely interested.
Fair question. It's a matter of objectives. Approach the objectives from a purely military standpoint and the soultion is crystal clear.
1. Destroy the enemys ability to make war. Destruction of Haiphong's and HongGai's port facilities, the total blockade of the Harbors, the destruction of the rail lines from china, aggresive continous reduction of the countrys ability to aid and succor the Viet Cong.
Why didn't we? Politics. The target list was controlled exclusively by the White House.
2. Destroy the infrastructure of command and control. Utter destruction of all road junctions, bridges, damns, factories and government facilities of all types.
Why didn't we? same answer.
3. Use of neighboring countrys as 'refuges'... from a military standpoint Laos and Cambodia were safe havens for the NVA and the Vietcong. The Military correctly demanded that these nations deny the enemy use of their territory, their inability to do so should have resulted in the US's armed pursuit with impunity into those havens.
Why didn't we? same answer.
4. Invasion. Having reduced the enemys effectiveness and failing a settlement, we should have invaded.. when your standing in Hanoi with your boot on Uncle Ho's neck it's kinda hard to concieve that the war could continue.
Thanks to the most screwed up set of Foreign Policy decisons recorded in the annals of statecraft we instead wound up with our militarys hands tied by an asinine ROE. The Vietnam War was conducted by politicans with the same effect and result as pissing on a forrest fire. And we got our dicks burned. The politicans didn't even get singed.
Dowding... I'm certain the world remembers the US pulled out of Vietnam, whats unfortunate is that the world thinks our Military lost. Our Army was not there when South Vietnam fell.
Consider.. From the Ia Drang Valley to Khe Sanh to Tet and Hue to An Loc.. we won every single engagement with the NVA. Every single one. The Military did not lose in Vietnam. Our politicans did.
Sadly, now even the population of this country believes the Military let our nation down. The onus of the fall of Vietnam rests squarely on US foriegn Policy. Not on US military Forces.
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ummm davidpt40; I'd love to debate your opinion of my comrades in arms in person.
Date, time, location; please.
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Yep, Hang. Nicely summed up.
Particularly Tet.
That battle was a huge loss for the VC. They jumped off on 17 January with some stunning early success due to surprise. The fight lasted through most of February though. And it ain't over till it's over.
And they got their clock cleaned by the time it was over.
In Hue alone, by Feb 25th there were ~ 500 dead US and ARVN with 75% of those ARVN. VC dead were on the order of 16 for each Allied death. A 16 to 1 K/D and somehow the VC are seen as the winners?
When the Tet fighting ended in late February, the "local" VC forces throughout South VietNam were decimated and the North took on the burden of fighting with "regulars".
The US forces.. draftees and all... and the ARVN had made the "locals" basically combat ineffective.
However, the VC did beat Johnson. He quit.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
second class after 8 years? what the hell did you do?
I made E5 after only 3 years, then got a re-enlistment bonus to re-up, along with a 1000 other guys in my field (Jet Engine Mechanic) for Reagan's 600 ship Navy, then due to my rate being "over-manned" due to cutbacks and no 600 ship fleet, I stayed an E5 for the next 5 years.
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Originally posted by fd ski
VS31 TOPCATS ALL THE WAY BABY !!!!
I beg to differ Ski... VS32 MAULERS ALL THE WAY!!!
Shipmate! :D
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Originally posted by rc51
weazel where you born this stupid ? or did it take years of training to get this dumb?
LOL what a MORON!!
ROFL!! If you're going to insult one's intelligence, the least you could do is to show that you have a grasp of the English language higher than that of your average sixth grader.
:rolleyes:
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Thanks for the reply Hangtime/Toad. Interesting. So why did they have such a restrictive ROE - was it to avoid a war with China? Didn't the administration believe the High Command in its assessment of the situation? Seems like such a waste of lives and time - at least these days governements are a little more cautious as to where they put their troops.
I'm just glad Wilson kept Britain out of Vietnam. Perhaps he saw what a waste of resources it was - although I think it was an abhorrant thing to the Labour at the time, and it was more an internal political thing.
As for losing the war - I think a war is more than just a series of battles or series of campaigns, it's a strategic objective delivered by force. Ultimately, if you fail to meet the strategic objective, you lose the war. I don't doubt the US military was capable of winning if it was given the freedom to do so.
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wow thanks that is amazing,
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Dowding, Robert Strange McNamara was the Secretary of Defense. He pretty much ran that war and he HAD no strategic... or tactical objectives... that made any sense or even remained consistent.
He was a little pinhead playing at war with the lives of other peoples sons. When he realized what a bloody (literally) mess he had made of it, he washed his hands and ran away. To this day, AFAIK, he has never apologized.
The politician ran that war, even down to picking the individual tartgets for the fighter bomber raids.
The results were predictable with that kind of leadership.
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milnko
My dad was with VF-33 on the America, I think in 68 and 69.
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what a wuss
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
milnko
My dad was with VF-33 on the America, I think in 68 and 69.
Tell your Dad I said "Fair Winds and Following Seas Shipmate!"
The America was a proud ship with a long and distinguished life... sadly she has been retired and is now mothballed, awaiting an uncertain fate.
:(
Just while I was aboard her she did four Suez Canal transits, an Equator Crossing, a trip north of the Artic Circle and she sailed the Norwegian Fjords.
She was ordered to sea, then recalled from US Operations in Grenada.
She ended ORE testing early to transit the Straits of Gibralter to assist off the coast of Lebenon. (which earned her crew the Navy Expeditionary Medal)
She was also there to burn holes in the ocean circling off the coast of Saudia Arabia during the Iran/Iraq War for 102 days without any port call.
Without question, no matter what task the giant was detailed to do, she always handled it easily while carrying her crew safely.
It's sad and seems somehow wrong to know that there is no longer a US ship bearing the name AMERICA sailing the oceans or sitting proudly at anchor somewhere in the world waving the US flag as a sign of friendship and support to our allies and as a dreadful warning to our enemies.
Salute! to a great ship, CV-66 The USS America.
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Hangtime, outta genuine interest, don't you think that the White House worries about total war meaning a repeat of Korea? i.e the US goes at it at full force, Chinese 'volunteers' show up. Russian 'advisors' killed, Soviet pissed off?
I think there was a ground for some caution. I also think this could have been achieved while still getting an effective approach to the war.
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Hang.....
I wouldn't waste a breath on these expert posters.
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Rude - then do us all a favour and piss off. How's that grab you?
I was interested in filling in some gaps in my knowledge.
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You answered Rude Rudely ;)
I was following this as well For the same reason.
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S' ok Rude.. I don't mind; how else the young'ns gonna know what we did? And why.. hell; despite the fact none of us will evere REALLY know why, they still need to know what the real questions are.
Hangtime, outta genuine interest, don't you think that the White House worries about total war meaning a repeat of Korea? i.e the US goes at it at full force, Chinese 'volunteers' show up. Russian 'advisors' killed, Soviet pissed off?
Santa, China wasn't much of a factor.. between the falling out they had with the soviets and trade needs with the west (i think Nixon got a Nobel prize for that) China was not considered to be a threat.. in fact they wern't all that damn happy with the vietnamese anyway. China figured more as a railhead for transhipped war materials. Was really kinda funny.. at one poink the chinks were stripping the trains of 'new' stuff and replacing it with their own (also soviet) older material.
The risk was Russia.. and thats supposedly why the White House obstensibly kept the military at close heel. Apparently it was ok for soviet 'advisors' to man SAM batterys slapping Buffs and Thuds with American pilots outta the sky, but not ok for us to go after the SAM staging areas, sites, delivery ships and rail lines. What a bunch of toejam THAT was.. at the time, no matter what escalation the russkies cared to consider, short of a nuke there was no way they'd fare any better than the North Vietnamese. And to think that the Russkies would go to 'open' support with uniformed troops on the ground in North Vietnam facing American Uniformed troops conducting an invasion was ludicrious...
Scenario.. US closes Haiphong, bombs out rail lines, goes downtown on all valid targets in the north. Full tilt boogie.. nothin in; nothin out; nothin flies, nothin moves on wheels. No safe havens, no access to any war material more civilized than a bicycle and a bayonet. Rooskie techical help is useless with no sams to shoot, no launchers left to shoot from, no new stuff in the pipeline... the pipelines are sunk, bombed out, burned out and freakin closed.
What CAN the rooskies do.. they can't go though China with anything.. it crosses the border and turns into flaming wreckage, their Navy can't enter the Tonkin Gulf. Nukes?? Breshnev is not stupid. Leonid's plug is pulled.
The US was not in Vietnam for oil.. for rice, for bamboo or for rubber.. our stated aim was to stop the advance of communisim and preserve the democratic government in the south that the north has invaded.
Yes; Invaded. Aside from a POW rescue mission, no South Vietnamese or US ground forces ever crossed into North Vietnam. We were fighting NVA regulars EVERYWHERE in the south.
So, whats Russias intrest? They ain't after Vietnams great supply of natural resources (bugs and blisters).. they're prime intent is to embarrass the United States, destabilise our influence in the region and topple pro-western east asian governments to increase THEIR sphere of influence.. but of all these, discrediting the US and destabilising our government via internal strife over the war was the big cigar. And Johnson, ill advised and wringing his hands, just could not find the testicles to face the rooskies and say "diddly YOU; LEONID!.. GET YER toejam OUTTA THERE BEFORE WE GO IN AND TAKE IT!"
A key point of intrest... the North Vietnamese, all through Kissingers Peace Farce in Paris (several years worth of this) remain intractable... Nixon, finally pissed and facing another election.. and with an electorate that WILL toss him if he doesn't end it, cuts loose with a major all out round of bombing raids. The gloves came off. Instead of truck parks and dirt road junctions the Navy got bridges, damns and the Haiphong marshalling yards for targets and the Air Force got to unleash the B-52's and carpet bomb something besides uninhabited jungle. 2 weeks later a peace deal got signed.
Henh. Shoulda done THAT non stop for 6 months EIGHT FREAKIN YEARS previously.
Anyway, you asked, and that, as far as my scotch sodden mind in in a dozen paragraphs can recall; is how Johnson lost us Vietnam and Nixon sold us out.
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Your friend wouldn't care for me at all Davidpt40. I yell at E-2s, E-3, and occasionally E-4s whenever the situation merits. I would rather scream at them now and have them hate me (but remember the point) then have them make the same mistake when lives are on the line. I don't make any exceptions for whiney little punks- we're all Army green.
Staff Sergeant, US Army
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Alright Hangtime, thanks for clearing up some misconceptions I had. Well written answer.