Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on September 09, 2000, 11:02:00 PM
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I had 1.03 more or less mastered
now 1.04 is here and in my first day of playing it I have had a lot of fun and a lot of frustration.
the frustration part is my own fault though.
at the beggining of tour 8 I was determined to fly to live and did so using the basic formula of:
altitude
attack with the advantage
do not chase a diving plane (unless you dont mind dying to his friends) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
extend to safety horizontally or vertically as required
don't linger in one place ever
don't push a bad situation
and most importantly:
don't rely on your own skill or lack there of to save you from tactical or ACM mistakes because the other guy may be just as good or better
in short use correct tactics and stay true to them and you can succesfully engage shoot down bad guys and get out of dodge alive
I did this starting the day tour 8 began and proceeded to rack up 41 kills to 0 deaths before 1.04 came out
after 1.04 I died my first death in the great warp fest during the download insanity and since i always fly to live till i die my first death then after that I jabo and fly to furball this is what I did.
bad timing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
after doing a good bit of killing and a bit more dying furballing became frustrating because I was relying on 1.04's new level of e retention to save me in situations that would get me killed in earlier versions. sometimes it did sometimes it didn't since the attacker has the same e retention boost and prop drag and drag from sideslips no longer has any noticeable effect on speed so overshoots and scissors are not an option in the P-38L and many others.
said another way the game is different now but the rules of air combat have not changed.
I've found in 1.04 if you play it cool and b&z with enough cunning you will be landing 5 kill sorties easily but only if you recognize the bandits e state correctly
I'm returning to these tactics for a while since im not so great at turning and burning in the 1.04 p-38 and I hate dying (my appologies for my temper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-09-2000).]
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I agree Cit. The new model weeds out the real BnZ guys and the pozers. No more turning to try to track someone. You now have to get in and get out with no messing about. That seems the way it should be.
I kinda wonder about the e retention in the verticle tho.
AKDejaVu
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Put Simply....dying sucks!
I can relate....good luck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm Out!-=
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Agree about the scissors bit.
I hope this is fixed somehow; weren't these machines able to out scissor enemies?
I fly largely as I did before, but turn a bit more, and do a few more immelman's. It is possible to "stay fast, stay hi, stay outta trouble" when you're lone wolfing, but if you have a wingie, and an endless stream of inb enemy, it's more problematic, as you'll often have to go into a situation that is less than ideal to help yer wingie out, and the same goes for him. Sooner or later, a hi con will come in and drop on you on your wingie, forcing ya to go on the defensive and possibly trade altitude for speed a lot during maneuvering.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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just practiced these Boom and zoom tactics in the MA and racked up a 15 kill sortie by reloading a few times but I forgot one other important rule I fly by...
AVOID HEAD ONS when the other guy has a good shot or colision is immenent!
hehe ended my 15 kill streak that way by accidently ramming a spit standing on its bellybutton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I think some people are going to learn the hard way that altitude does not equal skill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well said funked.
I b&z from 15k and under in my a8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I b&z from 15k and under in my a8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Always did it in earlier versions (yeah, the so tough ones (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). I guess that now it will be a bit easier. 190 is useless over 18K.
BTW got a H2H time yesterday night with some fellow spanish pilots, they came from Wb.
HTC, seems you soon will have a lot of Ex-WBers here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I, by my part, had a bunch of fun. But still have to figure how to readapt my stile of flying (mostly in the defensive, as I based it in overshoot tactics that dont work any more).
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Santa, realistically the P-38 (any varient including the late J's and the L) should be one of the worst "scissors" planes of the entire war. Thats what you get when you have very wide wings with engines mounted off the axis of roll.
If anything it the P-38 in AH is still too good in that regards.
I think currently its sustained roll rate is probably right on. But its initial roll rate seems too high, since it doesn't exhibit the inertia, or "hesitation" (and yes thats spelled wrong) that the pilots described. Of course given the way the FM works, it might be impossible to get both right.
On the sideslip issue.
I think most people thought the amount of E that was burned in slips was way too high, and there were alot of discussions on it, including some very good aeronautics from wells and others.
But we lived with it for a long time, and we got use to it. So it felt "right" to us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I haven't done any tests, but my guess would be that the current version is much closer to realism.
And to be honest, I think its mostly an issue of "feel" to us, since I am still using slips to control my speeds in the Arena. It still works, its just not as effective.
Now on the rest of the changes to 1.04, I will hold my tongue (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I will say that this version is MUCH easier to fly than the old one. But as to which is more realistic?
*shrugs*
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm
Sorry, was referring to the one nine tee, not the p38 when speaking about scissors.
Regarding slip; try this experiment: 1k agl, 230kts, on finals. Keep plane steady in +-0 climb/sink, reduce throttle to minimum. Notice time it takes to reduce speed to 200.
Do the same, with full right rudder.
I got no real difference in my A8.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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um
you guys can pretend your toejam hot and all and can kill anything but the intent of this thread is not how to be MR "I fly at low altitude in a 190 against the odds and kill everything"
the simple fact remains that by using proper tactics even the average pilot will have great success and survivability by not relying on their superior or inferior flying skill.
this whole discussion is aimed towards those that don't enjoy getting shot down and have the patience to fly using the necessary restraint not to put themselves in a bad situation.
sure furballing is fun but they didn't fly like that in ww2...
not the guys that lived through it anyway.
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"sure furballing is fun but they didn't fly like that in ww2..."
Baloney.
Didn't mean to pee on your thread though.
Just don't confuse "having the patience" with "being willing to waste time climbing". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-10-2000).]
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"not the guys that lived anyway"
the dead ones furballed funked
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Negative. Plenty of guys who lived tell stories of furballing. Many many pilots rarely saw the enemy. When they did see him, they flew like their hair was on fire.
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I'm not gonna get in a pissing contest with you funked I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else about my own personal skill or lack thereof and I don't confuse skill with altitude or flying smart or whatever you want to call it.
what I am saying is boom and zoom tactics still work and they will bring you back to base in one piece much more often than turning and burning will even with the new flight model.
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Cit I apologize. I didn't mean this to be me vs. you, or any slight on your personal skill - I know you are a tough opponent regardless of altitude.
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Your point is well taken Citabria and makes good pilot sense. I enjoy reading your posts, especially when they provide an insight into proper tactics.
Yes some people enjoy furballing, and I'm sure you know this well. After all it is only a simulation, but your point is well taken that B&Z tactics will bring you home more often in spite of the level of ability of the pilot. If you prefer furballing and don't like waisting time climbing, then by all means enjoy yourself.
I find your analysis quite instructive. Please don't hesitate to post more of them.
Ranger Bob
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In WW2 people flew in formations and when 2 met they fought otherwise known as furballed. The difference is there was not asteady stream of individual planes resupplying the furball. If an other formation joined the furballed it would tip the odds and shorten the furball. In AH these furballs last for ages and usually don't deplete in numbers (people die, replane and dive back in) as such your chances of survival if you stay in the furball are tiny in the arena.
Read Bob Tuck's biography flying safley to him meant bringing a parachute.
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Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.
This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.
I have never seen Tukiyo fight from advantage, not even from co-E. All the times he was at disadvantage.
On the other side of the universe is Ypsilon. How many times did he fight from disadvantage ?
Now what is the flying skill ? Is it ACM ? Is it killing and staying alive ? Is it the timing to join the vulchfest ? Is it the ability to choose your fights ? Does evaluating someone's E rank so low in the skill department ?
Tukiyo would rank on top of ACM skill department, IMO. This seems to be the criteria how most of us here value someone's skill. But, would such a pilot live through a war ?
Ypsilon flies the way some poeple find annoying. Why ? Because they don't have the chance to fight back.
So, who is better. The superior furballer that lived thru many fights or the novice BnZer who just shot him down in his C-Hog ?
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Heh, in tour 3 (I think), I ran into a Spitfire, co alt. Ended up dying in a HO, and was severly pissed off about whoever this tukiyo guy was.
So I reupped, still in 109G10. Came in higher, saw him low.
We had a *long* fight, and then I made a mistake, he got on my 6 and I extended. Low on fuel, I decided to RTB wondering just who the hell this guy was.
<S!> tukiyo
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Just a punt on a very informative and insightfull read into the minds of some of the best in AH.Wish I came across threads like this more often.Thx for the read guys.
By-Tor
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.
This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.
I have never seen Tukiyo fight from advantage, not even from co-E. All the times he was at disadvantage.
On the other side of the universe is Ypsilon. How many times did he fight from disadvantage ?
Now what is the flying skill ? Is it ACM ? Is it killing and staying alive ? Is it the timing to join the vulchfest ? Is it the ability to choose your fights ? Does evaluating someone's E rank so low in the skill department ?
Tukiyo would rank on top of ACM skill department, IMO. This seems to be the criteria how most of us here value someone's skill. But, would such a pilot live through a war ?
Ypsilon flies the way some poeple find annoying. Why ? Because they don't have the chance to fight back.
So, who is better. The superior furballer that lived thru many fights or the novice BnZer who just shot him down in his C-Hog ?
I personally like to fight from a defensive point of view. Simply put I can't do jack from the offensive. I die alot but it sure is satisfying smacking someone off their perch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ugh I remember the ol' days in AW4W when I would putter around at 5k in the P-51 or Hog...or skimming the deck in the A-26. And thanks to that frickin game I'm one of the worst scenario pilots to ever try (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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Yea the usual tactics don't work as nicely as they did in the previous version -> e.g. less E bleed means you have to "work" the target a lot longer to get it to an E level low enough to kill it (especially with cal 50s or other MGs..)
BUT
The manouver i was missig most since i left AW . the good 'ol Rope is BACK (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
A lot of planes perform a lOT better in the vertical now and a LOT of people are now more willing to try and follow your zoom.
DW6
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.
This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.
Great pilot. He once hurt my pride badly killing me from disadvantage 3 times consecutive. I just puzzled how he managed to keep e so brilliantly. Even when I viewed the film. Then I found the right tactics and killed him 7 times this day, but he always was in disadvantage or level, and fights were really hard. Also guy has a good personality, very shy so not many rank him as a superior pilot, while he is really. He and Mitsu are the best AH spit IX pilots for sure.
Fariz
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But the real question is why do we play this sim. Because we want to have fun ? To hone our ACM ? To live in our virtual sky ?
Someone recently gave best definition of this issue. It is when furballer meets score hunter. Some people take off and join the furball, never even bothering about landing their sorties. On the other hand, some fly to land their kills.
The problem arises when furballer meets the other guy. Calling him a coward just because he wants to fly like they used in WW2 ?
I remember few of my fights against Tukiyo. I was always in G-10. At first I got shot down when I went aggressive on his 6. After that I just got more careful and lagged behind until we were both low and slow. Or I always had the getaway option. He never shot me down again. With pre-1.04 FM even the Spit could do little from bad position. At other occasions he was always outnumbered or at disadvantage. I even waited for him to engage someone else, only to drop onhim when he wasn't watching.
Tukiyo was relying only on his ACM skills. And they are impressive. Only he could come into enemy territory all alone at 2-3k.
Ypsilon ? On every occassion I met him, he was higher than me. Even if I was at 25k, he came higher. And yes, I have never seen any ACM at all from him. Only endless loops. Simply, he refused to fight from disadvantage or even co-E.
So, who is better ? Tukiyo with his ACM or Ypsilon with his historical style ? I am not so sure. Even the best furballers with superior ACM die if you play dirty. Come with alt advantage or numbers to overcome their SA and that's it.
Some would say BnZers fly boringly. But who are we to tell them what is boring to them ? Is maybe our ego hurt when a BnZer shoots us down without giving us a chance to fight back ?
Some people can do amazine things in their planes. They are respected as ACM kings. Other have invested in different type of flying (more historical, IMO).
Being able to kill and live is a skill too. Sometimes much harder than just joining the furball and pulling on the stick.
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I remember when I learnd it the hard way.
Few months ago I was at 15k in Fw 190A-8. P 51D came at 20k+. Instead of running for friendlies, I decided to give him a fight.
We went around for minutes and finally ended near the deck. At one moment his zoom was a little bit short and I was on his 6, ready to spray him with cannons. At that moment I was proud of myself for beating high P 51 in low 190. But just then a Niki dove on me and sprayed my 190 out of the sky.
Well, no more Mr. Niki. Now I will come at advantage and nail that bastard. Without the chance for you to fight back. And even if you get behind me, I will point my nose down and run away.
I won't give you a fair fight. Ever.
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It is alot harder to rope now a days, atleast in the p51.
I dont know if its the Combat Trim that helps the chasing plane to not to stall out when he follows in the zoom, or if its the new FM (e retention).
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 09-12-2000).]
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yup duckwng6 the rope a dope is back big time! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
it is so easy now to just point the nose up and try to zoom after the bandit even though you know what will happen if you do.
1v1 in equal turning planes if you stay in the horizontal at hi speed using just enough turn to keep him from getting his guns on target then barrel roll over onto his 6 as he breaks off you can actually rope the b&zer into bleeding just enough E to allow you to follow him up as he passes you and gun him to bits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo:
But the real question is why do we play this sim. Because we want to have fun ? To hone our ACM ? To live in our virtual sky ?
Answer is in you question -- WE play it for everything you mentioned + more. This WE contain lot of different people. I personally try to respect every single way of flying, which I met. I fly for scores, someone flyes for furballs, ACM, whatever, everything is ok with me. What I do not like when someone starts offending everyone who flies not the way he does.
Fariz.
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Citabria....
Last night you tried to rope me in ur F4u...I almost judged ur E correctly but we both fell off at d500....then you killed me.
Please don't do that anymore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Good Kill<S>
I'm Out!
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Could someone please explain what "roping" is?
thx
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The "Rope-a-Dope": an attack maneuver that depends on the enemy misjudging your relative E state. The Roper judges that he has more E and/or can outclimb the Dope. He makes a low G attack, or fakes an attack, which draws the Dope into following the Roper's zoom or spiral climb. If it all works well, the Dope follows the climb until he stalls, but never quite gets his guns on the Roper. As the Dope stalls and falls off the climb, the Roper kicks over and dives on the helpless Dope, blasting him out of the sky.
(The name was coined by the American boxer, Cassius Clay, who would sucker his opponent into an attack on the ropes, which Clay would turn to his advantage.)
popeye
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 09-12-2000).]
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Nice Explanation, Popeye, thx
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Originally posted by Maniac:
It is alot harder to rope now a days, atleast in the p51.
I dont know if its the Combat Trim that helps the chasing plane to not to stall out when he follows in the zoom, or if its the new FM (e retention).
Oh how I disagree!!! When beta started a year ago I started with the Uber-Mustang. The guns were adequate, speed great and E fighting characteristics superb. I remember Moss saying all Mustangs were opportunists. I proceeded to show him how wrong he was! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Then they de-modeled the Stang's guns and I gave up on it and found myself spending alot of time in the Niki. It was a plane which didnt do well up high but could bail a pilot out of a bad situation by its accelleration, turn rate and high on the deck speed.
When the ammo load on the Nik was changed, I flew the 190A5. It was a plane that combined characteristics of the Nik and Stang and allowed some good E fighting/turnfighting abilties. Its slow speed on the deck however, got me in trouble more times than I could count (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Then comes version 1.04. After 20 flights of sheer frustration and poor flying, I changed my strategy. I climbed back up into the Mustang and found it a pure joy to fly.
The three days I flew it, my country was completely overwhelmed by numbers yet I found myself racking up 3 and 4 kill missions easily. I even found myself able to either reverse the roles if I were bounced from high with a barrel roll on a higher plane or disengage at will. WEWWEEEE!
All I can say is that the 51 CAN rope and do it well. It flips over very easily at the top of a loop and with a gentle hand, very rarely departs flight into a spin.
Perhaps my most enjoyable moment was after being engaged by a higher tiffie who only knew how to HO. Rather than use his advantage to work for position he would turn head on, shoot and then separate and repeat as needed. Each pass was countered with a low G immelman. Finally, when the advantage was nullified, the Tiffie decided to dive and run.
Lemme just tell you, never piss off a Stang pilot and think you have a free ride home. He WILL catch you if he wants (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!
-Ding
PS...BTW, I have turned OFF combat trim. I find I can do a better job of trimming the plane than CT can.
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 09-12-2000).]
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Citabria,
I've been thriving in 1.04 with the Yak-9U (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I think the reason has to do with the particular planes I fly (Yakovlev & Lavochkin), and the new FM. In both FMs determining enemy energy states was/is absolutely necessary for successful flying. However, the new FM allows for more maneuver within a given e-state. This creates an environment where more possibilities are open for combatants, making air combat even more unpredictable, more complex. I love it.
Oh, and you made a post stating to never HO. Well, I spontaneously tried a maneuver in this FM I would have never tried in the old one. It was a vert HO, I was zooming, the opponent was diving. As we closed, on a whim I did a slow 'cork-screw', and he missed. In the old FM, I never would have had e long enough to have made that maneuver. It wasn't a roll, but a cork-screw, with slight pitch input during the roll. Maneuver! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hristo,
Tukiyo is a master of that Spitfire. I agree he is an excellent flyer. Excellent.
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"However, the new FM allows for more maneuver within a given e-state. This creates an environment where more possibilities are open for combatants, making air combat even more unpredictable, more complex. I love it."
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.........
now you all are starting to see the light (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Great isn`t it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Need balance though. 1.03 was like flying a brick. (WB P47C is the brick of all bricks) *IF* 1.04 gets modeled too far in the other direction you will have an arcade game for a FM.
The magic is inbetween. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
www.352ndFighterGroup.com (http://www.352ndFighterGroup.com)
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney
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Originally posted by Hristo:
The problem arises when furballer meets the other guy. Calling him a coward just because he wants to fly like they used in WW2 ?
Yip, im used to that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The people who TnB and expect you to turn fight your mustang or F4u P47 190 109s with a spit or 205 or zeke are missing the point - fights dont have to end in a plane going down. I often end up in stalemates and just <S> the pilot and leave the area. A luxury mustang drivers have. People curse and yell at ya for 'running away' why just hand them a kill?
So, who is better ? Tukiyo with his ACM or Ypsilon with his historical style ? I am not so sure. Even the best furballers with superior ACM die if you play dirty. Come with alt advantage or numbers to overcome their SA and that's it.
Some would say BnZers fly boringly. But who are we to tell them what is boring to them ? Is maybe our ego hurt when a BnZer shoots us down without giving us a chance to fight back ?
Some people can do amazine things in their planes. They are respected as ACM kings. Other have invested in different type of flying (more historical, IMO).
Being able to kill and live is a skill too. Sometimes much harder than just joining the furball and pulling on the stick.
Very well put Hristo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Hristo:
I won't give you a fair fight. Ever.
Great advise.
Originally posted by Dingy:
I climbed back up into the Mustang and found it a pure joy to fly.
Shes a beatuy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Dingy:
I even found myself able to either reverse the roles if I were bounced from high with a barrel roll on a higher plane or disengage at will. WEWWEEEE!
yup (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Originally posted by Dingy:
Lemme just tell you, never piss off a Stang pilot and think you have a free ride home. He WILL catch you if he wants
Thats why i like it so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I love people who follow you for miles out, well out of range of the friends, and then decide to turn back, at which point i reverse and run em down. Moral of the story? Dont chase mustangs...
Citab is right when he says you have to go back to the basics when BnZing. I have found that the 1.03-if-they-turn-they-die-cause-they-are-too-slow is no longer true. The BnZer has to be a lot more weary and really work his opponent. I think im just being a bit too cautious at the moment cause i still havent got the 'feeling' for the nme planes E state yet with the new FM.
I think i like the FM for some things (not tried the patch 1 yet). Once saddled up you in for a wicked ride of plenty of black-outs and sweaty palms. lots more fun.
BIG <S> to HTC and all my fellow AH pilots.
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Overlord Spatula
if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Just hope the guy isn't driving a Tiffy. On the deck the Tiffy will run down the Runstang without even breathing hard. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Just hope the guy isn't driving a Tiffy. On the deck the Tiffy will run down the Runstang without even breathing hard. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maybe if the Stang hasnt worked up to full speed Funked. I had a little under a quarter of a tank of fuel left and ran the Tiffie down in about 20-25 miles. The speeds on the deck are close but the Mustang DOES seem to have the edge. Maybe he used all his WEP on the HOs, dunno. I had about 4 minutes of WEP to close with him once he tried to disengage.
--Ding
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Dingy, if you see me online, we can go race in the TA. The only way the Mustang can get the Tiffy is if he has WEP and the Tiffy doesn't. We'll race for pink slips. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-13-2000).]