Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: ergRTC on January 19, 2003, 12:15:57 PM
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Absolutely worthless.
I know, here is a great scenario I want to fly in! LEts pretend the germans snuck into london at 4am this morning and have control of most of southern england!!!! THat will be great fun. Then we can spend the morning trying to get them out of england.
I fly the ct to do historical matchups in quasi historical situations. This, is just not fun. Then of course, england has the wonderful use of a boston for bombing. Nothing else. While the gerries have unlimited planes and tanks in england. no.
There is no reason to have base capture on this map. It wasnt even designed for it. Just roll back rebuild times to 1 hour. And no base capture.
Now if this were italy or north africa, that would be something else, but Fricking hitler never even sent troops across the channel in 1940, much less enough paratroopers (10) to take london.
For those lwabbles we were fighting this morning, no offense to you, I would love to pad my score with bostons and m8s too. I just dont like wearing that underwear.
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Have to agree with you on this one. I suppose I envisioned alot of air-air action in a BOB setup, but so far it's a real estate game with guns.
My vote: let's turn it off.
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Yes I would agree that a bob with out field capture would be better.
Increasing the down time for hangers and field structures can accomplish the same thing as field capture in that it forces you to defend your field or else get pushed back for longer flight times.
Originally the ct had no field capture component but when the CT was restructured and given off to cms instead of pyro running it one of the things the gen population called for was field capture. It was believed that it would lead to increased numbers. It never did.
While we have seen ct numbers increase that increase is no greater then the increase in the main since the ct began.
Now theres some setups where field capture can enhance gameplay but imho it should remain secondary to "combat".
Its not called the "field capture" theater. But anything that highlights "Combat" in the Combat Theater is a good thing.
In a set up like BoB field capture should be re examined. If its shown that it leads to more fighting then great. If it leads to milkrunning and back door sneak grabs at undefended fields then it hurts gameplay.
My 2 cents.
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Didnt they used to restrict troops carrying to french bases to lesson the chance of germany taking england?
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more you should turn it off.
We even had spawn camping in the CT this morning.
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I've been playing the CT since it began. Base capture gives EVERYONE objectives.
Sure, if you're there just for dogfighting, then base capture is not your cup of tea. But it does open up the ground vehicles fights. Balanced in that area.
I think it gives for everyone. You can still find a good dogfight. Let the zipperheads fight it out on the ground if they want. :)
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no
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LOL!
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I just mean that your opinion is addressed to the arena as a whole. I am talking about bob.
In bob, there is a little bit of water separating the 'enemies'. And for that matter, GVs had nothing to do with the real bob, so they could go for all I care.
If we are pretending the russians are attacking the brazilians cause jerry lewis moved to peru, then yeah, base capture and put in tiger tanks.
Just as guys that wet themselves over the la7 would feel left out by this scenario, the base capture people should be left out too.
Besides above all else base capture is what makes the MA the MA. Which is the reason I dont fly in the MA. Same for a lot of other guys.
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agree with RTC on this one. Base captures in England must stop.
This is the axis bombers dream and thats ok. But the troop stuff gotta go. There should be no base captures in England.
Paris, France Italy etc sure, but not England, not in the CT.
When they gonna give us the Historic Arena?
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Guys, I don't know where you get your history - but that is what the BOB was all about. Not just because the LW & RAF was having a "Brass Balls" competition!
The BOB was a battle for control of the airspace over the Channel and Southern England so OPERATION SEA LION, the invasion of England, could take place.
Ergo... if you control the airspace above the Channel and Southern England in the CT you will prevent the hoards of Fallschirmjager in their JU-52's from getting a foot hold. If they do manage to get a foothold - get your finger out, work together and push them back into the sea!
(Gives V for VICTORY sign. :D )
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Operation Sea Lion... It's a good thing that the Germans didn't realize that all they had to do was get 10 troops into a London bar at the same time to capture the city. :rolleyes:
Regardless of the appropriateness of base capture, it is considered bad form to log on in off hours and take bases unopposed.
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It might be cool if there was a way to control the numbers required for a capture. We can adjust many of the factors and conditions via "Arena Settings" menu....so, why not let there be an option "requiredtroops" setting?
Something like 'Minimum 10, maximum 50'?
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The problem with sealion is that it never happened. Hitler listened to that fat bellybutton and decided to try and decimate the RAF. Then like a fool he decided to start bombing cities.
Sealion never happened because they thought they could pound england into submission with just airpower.
Now, taking a few ju52s across the channel was not going to allow the germans to capture d!ck. Hell 100 ju52s wouldnt let them do anything. Therefore, that option should not be available here. If ten guys in a ju52 could have taken london, then the war would have turned out quite a bit differently.
Now, last night after 12 was taken back, the fun began. It was hard, as the english were not well organized in their defense, but the dogfights (even if they were rather one sided) were still plenty of fun.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Sealion never happened because they thought they could pound england into submission with just airpower.
All,
I remember seeing a documenty on the Battle of Brition several years ago. It presented an interesting evaluation of the entire battle.
This is all from memory so bear with me.
Germany bombing of English aircraft plants and air fields during the early phase of Bob was having a serious effect on the Brit's ability to field sufficient aircraft to counter the entire German Air offensive. The number of available Spits and Hurris was rapidly approaching a threshold level where soon England could not mount any air defense.
Then one of Hitler's bomber accidentally hit London during a night raid. The Brits retaliated by hitting Berlin. To this, Hitler (in extremely bad judgement) ordered that all further bombing would be against London. This gave the factories and airfields a breather from constant bombings and time to repair, re-build and hence put up ever increasing numbers of Hurris and Spits against the German Air assault.
One of the conclusions of this documentary was that if that He-111 had not accidentally bombed London, maybe the Brits would not have in turn bombed Berlin. Hitler then may have ordered the continuation of airfield and aircraft plant bombings with the possible result that eventually the British would not have been able to mount any air defense.
The outcome of such a scenario was open to speculation.
The documentary went on to hint that Sealion was a failure because the German bombing of English cites gave British airfields and plants time to recover and eventually wear down the German air assaults.
With control of the airspace over Briton, a German land/sea invasion was going to be froth with extreme difficulty. Without control of the air, any German land and sea invasion was going to be impossible.
The name of the documentary was "Battlefield." It aired on PBS in 1995.
I also vote NO BASE CAPTURE
Edited for spelling and minor editing
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Yeah delta I saw that same program, and I think you have their conclusion right. Several places I have heard that the germans pretty much had the raf to the wall when that bad but thankfully bad decision was made.
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ergRTC,
Well, very good. Thanks for your comment.
I'm glad to hear that others saw and enjoyed the same series.
IMO, the Bob was the best one of the whole series.
Second best was Battle of Midway.
Delta aka fGonzo
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I must also speak up for disabling base capture during BoB setups (and 8th AF setups, etc). I have always thought base capture was the WORST invention in the old AW days and I cannot for the life of me understand why it is still around. When are they going to model a proper ground war so the air war can have a reason to exist?
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Been suggested before, but worth saying again... The ground war could even be abstracted by the game engine calculating where the front lines are by the amount of strategic resources available to a country. As a countries factories, cities and refineries are destroyed the maximum area that countries virtual ground forces diminishes and its front lines pull back. Bases can still be attacked, damaged and repaired but the actual capture is a function of the game engine rather that 10 troops bellying up around the bar in the map room.
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For what it's worth, I made an error in the set up, as C-47's were only supposed to be enabled from second-line bases. This was mostly to allow for resupply, but also to provide a modest base capture capability. Long goon flights would make base captures more difficult, without completely eliminating the possibility of a German foot-hold in England. Remember that the paratroopers in AH are an abstraction that allows a few to simulate what normally takes a multitude of participants, i.e. ground combat. Personnally, the most helpful arena tool would be the ability to tie possibility of base capture to the number of people in the arena, perhap even to the side ratios. A minimum number of people total in the arena, with a specific ratio between the two sides (or three, depending on the arena set up), would be required, or base capture would be impossible.
By the way, the Battle of Britain was nowhere near as close a thing as generally believed. This is not to say that the RAF's efforts were not heroic...they were. It's just that the popular notion that the RAF was on the ropes until Hitler ordered the switch to terror bombing of English cities is not borne out by historical figures. Fighter Command never commited more then a fraction (a significant fraction, but nowhere near even 50% as I recall) of it's fighter squadrons to the defense of Sourthern England during the BoB. They wisely kept many units in reserve in the North against the expected cross-channel invasion. Those southern fighter squadrons suffered grevious losses, and where definitely feeling the strain, but total RAF fighter strength actually increased over the course of the battle. I've seen the charts on production and overall front-line strength. LW strength on the other hand declined. That's because it was not until late 1942 or early 1943 (again, going from memory) that German figther factories went from single shift to round the clock production.
Bomber Command likewise was husbanded, to be thrown full force at the German invasion barges, beach heads, and assembly points. The RAF's defeat of the LW is all the more incredible when one considers that it did so with much of it's strength held out of the fight. Had the assault on the RAF and Coastal Command continued, rather than being redirected against the English population, it is likely that Germany could have gained control of the air over southern England. However, they would have been in for a nasty experience had they then gone forward with Sea Lion.
Goering's assertions that Fighter Command was down to "it's last 50 Spitfires" was never more than wishful thinking. The fact is that many of the RAF losses reported by LW pilots were not kills. RAF fighter planes reported shot down often managed to make it back to a friendly base or ditched on English soil, be be salvaged. Even when the plane was a write-off, RAF pilots who managed to bail over England were back "in the office" the next day. Again, I don't say this to denegrate the gallant defense of their country by that "so few." Merely to point out that the RAF was in better shape during the battle than popular history indicates.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Originally posted by Sabre
By the way, the Battle of Britain was nowhere near as close a thing as generally believed. This is not to say that the RAF's efforts were not heroic...they were. It's just that the popular notion that the RAF was on the ropes until Hitler ordered the switch to terror bombing of English cities is not borne out by historical figures.
Agreed. And that's not even considering how ludicrous the notion of invading England from barges towed across the Channel was. Undoubtedly the English were worried at the time (who wouldn't be?), but, as Sabre said, it wasn't a close thing.
- oldman
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good points sabre
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need more vessals to shoot at...that wont shoot back :D
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Sabre,
That is pretty much how I understand it too.
Well, with the added note that the Royal Navy would have been pulverizing the invasion barges while RAF Fighter Command gave them top cover.
Had the Germans actually tried to invade they would have been slaughtered. They simply didn't have the resouces to mount a cross channel invasion agaist the strongest navy in Europe and the second strongest air force.
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Sabre,
I really have to hand it to you...
You really are a fantastic writer. You explain your points very clearly and most everything that you write just flows. You use enough unique words to make your sentences interesting, but don't push your word choice to the point of making your writing difficult to read, or hoity-toity sounding. I always enjoy reading whatever you write, even when you are wrong :) .
Sorry for the blowing sunshine-up-your-butt sappy stuff guys, I'm a teacher so sometimes I make compliments out of habit.
Sabre's writing really does stand out.
eskimo
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me write pretty some day.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Sabre,
I really have to hand it to you...
You really are a fantastic writer.
Sorry for the blowing sunshine-up-your-butt sappy stuff guys, I'm a teacher so sometimes I make compliments out of habit.
Sabre's writing really does stand out.
eskimo
i kin rite reel gud whan i put mye mine two et! no iv onlee eye hade a spelchekur.
pees: eye'm nevr missteaken! and mye deetension hal keed kin beet up yor honer role keed!
:D
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Originally posted by VOR
Have to agree with you on this one. I suppose I envisioned alot of air-air action in a BOB setup, but so far it's a real estate game with guns.
My vote: let's turn it off.
Yeah, pretty wicked flying across the channel with port batteries lobbing shells over your canopy. Thought someone was shooting 300mm's and dang near augered looking for the con.!:eek:
It was P6Ehawk, honing his skill of political correctness and winning friends in France. hehe:p
Lose the capture and increase rebuilds, like Erg says. Please
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Eskimo: Now that you mention it, I did feel a slight breeze:). Thanks for the kind words. One of these days, I'll get back to that novel. In in turn always appreciate your constructive feedback, and the candor with which you present it.
Sabre
CT Staff
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http://www.sunbelt-software.com/stu/viking_kittens.swf
is the *only* way BoB should have base capture enabled.
:D