Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Keez on November 15, 2001, 03:39:00 AM
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Yesterday, me and my bombersquadron buddies decided to make a dangerous raid on the city of the Rooks or Knights, I forgot on who. Anyways, we had to fly past three enemy airfields, and at every airfield enemy fighters came up to meet us. We fought a nail-biting battle to get to our target, but we downed five fighters, of which one was a 262, without losing one bomber. We dropped our bombs succesfully and turned around to fight a nail-biting battle to get back home.
So far so good, was all great fun, excactly the reason why I joined a bombergroup, but then it happened... fifteen minutes later, most of the city was back up. They had been gooning like crazy.
What the heck is this? :eek: Is bombing being discouraged? We weren't even out of enemy airspace and most of the damage had been undone. Same thing with airfields: we fly long to get high and to the target, bomb the crap out of a base, one train and: voila, a brand new base. I dont generally whine about every aspect of the game that I dont like, but this just tastes bitter after a long struggle to destroy a target.
I hope that Hi Tech will look into this sometime. It would be nice if the work you did would last a bit.
Oh yes, and we're recruiting too ;)
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Calling Rude... :D
Pepe
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I totally agree with this post.
Strategic bombing is bollocks now, there's just no point.
It's all very well having resupply and trains and whatnot for tactical bombing targets but AI resupply should take at least 1/2 an hour......more if intercepted by jabo.
Strat targets should damn well stay down for hours, not minutes.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Swoop ]
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So far so good, was all great fun, excactly the reason why I joined a bombergroup...
I call your attention to the obvious. ;)
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Originally posted by Kieran:
I call your attention to the obvious. ;)
Well I joined for the fun of pushing home deep strikes, not for the targets to be completely rebuild, brand new, after a couple of minutes.
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Agree 100%! The Buccs don't even bother with strat targets since resupply was implemented. Certain targets should be worth defending because they can't be instantly rebuilt, and because their loss would cause a measureable detrimental effect on the war effort. Not a crippling blow, mind you...just a tangible one.
If nothing else changes regarding the Strat System in AH, please make the strat targets immune to resupply.
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agreed. See my post on revamping the strat system for further discussion on the topic.
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Concur.
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So... fluffing is no fun unless you can "have an affect on the game"? or, in other words... flying the things is no fun unless you can spoil the fun of a lot of other guys?
It was a lot of fun to do for you but it was all ruined for you when you didn't get attention?? Effort? what effort? Skill? what skill? How could you miss? A WWII bomber formation never knew if they destroyed the target they set out to hit and 99% of the time they didn't.. Factories were back up and running as the bombers were being chased home. It took multiple raids over weeks to destroy targets and sometimes not even then.
lazs
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Damnit Lazs. Beat me to it.
Westy
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Originally posted by lazs1:
So... fluffing is no fun unless you can "have an affect on the game"? or, in other words... flying the things is no fun unless you can spoil the fun of a lot of other guys?
It was a lot of fun to do for you but it was all ruined for you when you didn't get attention?? Effort? what effort?
Hey! How about when you shoot down a fighter with your uber skills, which are superior the the inferior buff people, how would you like it if that plane respawned right back in front of ya, at 20K? Over and over again... That's what it's like, with your immature attention story.
You're so afraid that buffs might "spoil" your fun? Sounds to me like you dont have what it takes to shoot down a formation. Let us be, sometimes we take 15 or 20 minutes to get to a target, so we can never do a lot of damage in a short time. And we dont ruin your fun, our squadron concentrates on cities, factories and such, to make the job for the JABO's and fighters easier.
Hell yeah we wanna have an effect on the game. We fly long, we risk having flown for 15 minutes only to be killed seconds before the bombdrop. We constantly need to be on the lookout for fighters and when they come, there is no running away. Hell yeah we want that damage we have worked so hard for, lasts.
It is our idea of fun, and I can imagine that it isn't yours. But leave us be, if you would take the effort to come up and meet us and our escortfighters, you might actually have a chance to stop us from hitting your precious city. If you stay down there, having your arcade style mass furball, then dont you complain that the bombers can do so much damage with so little effort.
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The work around is to have fighters cap the damage you inflicted, so they can waste the resupply efforts.
ATC
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Agreed, strat targets are now worthless
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Sorry you didnt enjoy your mission because a goon pilot was on the ball. He didnt like being in the dark to give you your fun I guess.
I would think the strat systems big reason for existance was to get bombers and fighters contesting the same airspace..
Sounds like that happend.
What was the problem again?
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ATC, I'd like to see you try to keep a group of fighters together 3 fields deep in nme territory long enough to make a notable difference on resupply. Goons are coming in low for supply which means you gots to be low to get em, then their buddies in fighters arent just gonna let you prance around downing goons all day, that doesn count the fact that have the force you left with is back furballing at the first nme airfield you passed ;)
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Sorry you didnt enjoy your mission because a goon pilot was on the ball. He didnt like being in the dark to give you your fun I guess.
I would think the strat systems big reason for existance was to get bombers and fighters contesting the same airspace..
Sounds like that happend.
What was the problem again?
I dont blame the goonpilot for bringing supplies to his bombed city. If I was him, I would have done the same thing. It is the system which allows this, that forms a problem for me.
And I dont get the last part... sounds like what happened? fighters came up to us? Yes that happened, was fun, I must admit, but killing fighters is a meassure, not a goal in itself.
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I'm holding off judgement to see what 1.09 brings, in the last interview I read Hitech said 1.09 would have alot of bomber fixes in it. Unless things change I'll be changing my squad role to an attack/fighter role because bombing really is pointless right now. BTW ignore lazs he gets his historical reference from a comic book :rolleyes:
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Keez I have a question.
Which in the more difficult to accomplish? Bomb a city or resupply said city?
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Originally posted by Apache:
Keez I have a question.
Which in the more difficult to accomplish? Bomb a city or resupply said city?
it depend of the position of the frontline ... if it's bombing deep into nme territory (aka strategic bombing) the gooner is milk running ...
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Well, I hope both bombers AND resupply will be looked at for 1.09.
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Since we are talking milkrunning... how many perk points does a goon get for making that drop? ;)
Fighters and bombers contesting the same airspace can also be interpreted to mean cooperative operations between fighters and bombers on the same side. Fighter sweep, bomber stream with escort, next wave in to keep the pressure on. If you get enough guys on one side to do that, you get the base. If not, the defending side can rebuild if they take the time and effort to do so.
One thing I never liked before was the ability of two (2) 33K Lancasters to shut down production for hours on end. This seems a better solution to me, where it is much harder to stop the resources of a country from flowing. IMHO it should be very hard to kill a city (short of an A-bomb or Dresden-type fire attack). Likewise, taking an airbase should not be the 10-minute walkover it was before where all you really needed was 5-6 vultching ack (and fighters) and a goon or M3 to sneak in.
What seems odd to me is that you state you had nail-biting fun going in and out of the target area. You successfully dropped your load on target and then successfully egressed. You killed 10 fighters in the process. You gained many points. The only thing that did not occur is you didn't kill the city for two hours (because of the enemy that took the time to send in supplies). How could this be so bad? What am I missing here? :confused:
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Originally posted by Keez:
We fought a nail-biting battle to get to our target, but we downed five fighters, of which one was a 262, without losing one bomber. We dropped our bombs succesfully and turned around to fight a nail-biting battle to get back home.
I say congradulations! Sounds like a darn good flight! Sorry the way the system works took the fun away for you. Still, you should be feeling good for making the run and returning as you set out to do.
I dont really have an opinion on the balance in the whole strat system yet, Im still figuring strat out. (as to how to be most effective)
My point is, Just be happy with what you accomplished. I think you did very well.
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The way it looks to me is that bombers have very limited tactical value in AH - close to zero on their own. I like flying them, but if the buff mission isn't part of an overall strategy to take territory, there's not much point in taking them up.
As for strats: It would hasten the end of a war if they remained down a lot longer - assuming the prevailing country at the time took advantage of it. At the same time, it would grant the losing side some breathing room, if a daring deep strike managed to get in to destroy one of the enemy's important strats. For example, it would be kinda cool if there were dams in AH...
Stiletto ;)
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Originally posted by lazs1:
flying the things is no fun unless you can spoil the fun of a lot of other guys?
lazs
Hey, Isnt this the point of flying period. Be it a Buff or a Fighter or even a GV or CV.
Shoot them down and ruin their fun. ;)
Isnt a good mission when you Tick-off the enemy??
So if Bombers Ruin some fighter guys fun, well that happens. Same with the Fighters, if they can shoot down the bombers and ruin their fun, well it happens also.
I think its called, Spread the Hate! :D
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I don't see that there is a problem. Straffo said that it was a milk run for a goon to resupply if it was deep into enemy territory. Well yeah. Looking at it from the enemies side, it's protected, it's ours. What are we supposed to do, sit & watch?
If on the other hand, it's a front line bomber raid, which is more difficult now? Flying in a bomber formation with escort or flying an unarmed c47 with enemy fighter aircraft in the area?
Balance & counter balance.
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--- Keez: ---
how would you like it if that plane respawned right back in front of ya, at 20K?
--- end ---
I am assuming your '20K' means 'higher than you are'. Then that's same as saying the intercepting fighter you just nuked with uber-lazers would spawn at position of attack to you every time. The enemy doesn't gain a position to affect you _directly_ if they resuply the targets, like your '20K' comment suggests if it was what I took it as, so resply and enemy upping at '20K' are not comparable.
Next time you up, leave fighters at the attacked target to vulch goons. Oh and advise them not to ininin all at once for one low target which can't harm the attacking fighter anyway. Leave high cap for incoming enemy fighters. I bet P-51 with DTs can down a goon with out dropping the DTs to allow for long loiter time.
Your bombers on the way back home are at 30K+ and so light that they will outperform most fighters up there - you won't need an escort while RTB. Oh or perhaps arrange for a new escort to get you home, I know it must be totally brand new idea...
// fats
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Originally posted by Grimm:
My point is, Just be happy with what you accomplished. I think you did very well.
Oh we are all very happy about that flight, it was one for the squadron record :)
Dont get me wrong, even if a city would pop right up after we bombed it, we would still go. Because our first and foremost objective is have fun together doing what we like to do: flying a formation of B17's deep into enemy land, fencing off fighters and then making it back. The seconday objective is always the actual destruction of the target.
But people who really like to play soccer also get ticked off when every goal they score doesn't count "just because that's the new system". Altough in the end the real soccerfans will ofcourse keep on playing, points or not, just like we will keep on buffing. Thanks for the compliment btw ;)
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What altitude were you at.. and what type of bombers?
AKDejaVu
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Ok... I'll simplify.. You have plenty of strat to work with. If you flew in a realistic manner with escort and such... You would "accomplish" something. What? You can't get escort? You mean, the more complex the strat get's the less people wnat to participate? Yeah, I agree.
I also think that you are confussing "hard work" with "skill". I don't believe that "hard work" should be rewarded unless it involves skill and then... only in a balanced manner. The "skill" required to kill dar or ruin fights is so low now that it should only be worth about 20 seconds of closure per hour of "hard work" at this point. Most bomb runs are either skilless suicide runs and/or milkruns. No one is fooled thaspends any time in the arena.
you say we/I don't have "what it takes" to kill fluffs.... Maybe, That doesn't seem to ring true tho in light of the stats, but... more importantly.... who would want to? To kill gamey, silly fluffs that are an embarassment to a flight simulation is simply..... not fun and, if it's not fun... What's the point? How do I know I am really bored? when I kill a fluff.
lazs
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Originally posted by Apache:
I don't see that there is a problem. Straffo said that it was a milk run for a goon to resupply if it was deep into enemy territory. Well yeah. Looking at it from the enemies side, it's protected, it's ours. What are we supposed to do, sit & watch?
If on the other hand, it's a front line bomber raid, which is more difficult now? Flying in a bomber formation with escort or flying an unarmed c47 with enemy fighter aircraft in the area?
Balance & counter balance.
To make my point clear I never said that I'm against milk running and I'm just too lazy to developpe my reasonement further :D
The bad think IMO is that it ruin the strat part of the game ...
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Yeah bombers are pointless in the strat aspect. :rolleyes: We Knits were pushing to take some Bish base, don't remember which one or when. I'm flying JABO in a Hurri IIc, I take out a hangar or something, then grab some kills, I'm out of ammo, so I RTB. I see a really high dot ahead of me. As I get near the base and under the dot, it's a high Lanc. As I approach my field to land, there's smoke everywhere. The lanc was nailing every single non-hangar target at the field. All ammo, barracks and fuel tanks were hit. Damn, we can't use this base anymore to press the attack, 25% fuel, no ordnance, no TROOPS. We gotta resupply this base from another base. Oh, there's another base we can attack from. Oops, a Bish B17 was shot down overhead. He managed a drop or two. No barracks at this field. We gotta resupply this one too, or take the goon from even farther back. In the mean time, the Bish managed to get a resupply to their field we were pressing setting us back to square one on trying to take it.
Two solo bombers made an impact on the situation at that front. They protected their field by hitting tactical targets and removing (albeit until resupply) the immediate threat of the base being captured. They didn't ruin the fun of anyone, they just forced the Knits to work harder at that area. All fighter hangars were up, so the furballers could still go, they were just gonna not make it back from the fuel porked field, yet the other field that was about the same distance away was still fully fighter operable.
Honestly, that's not how buffs were used in WWII, but that's how you CAN use them in the current version of AH to have fun and make an impact on the game. (later 3 B17s showed up and completely leveled the field that was at 25% fuel.) Sure we resupplied it, but it took some time to get the C47 there, plenty of time for Bish to get defense at their field up. Eventually we got the field, but it took some time and effort. It was a blast!
edit: i said rook once cuz I was getting confused from a later fight we had that night. :D
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Nifty ]
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As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says. Same thing goes with hangars and other targets. I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?
At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc. This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly. Absolutely silly.
Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy. I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck. The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.
But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez. One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What altitude were you at.. and what type of bombers?
AKDejaVu
We were at 22.000 feet, in B17's.
Originally posted by Laz1:
I also think that you are confussing "hard work" with "skill". I don't believe that "hard work" should be rewarded unless it involves skill and then... only in a balanced manner. The "skill" required to kill dar or ruin fights is so low now that it should only be worth about 20 seconds of closure per hour of "hard work" at this point. Most bomb runs are either skilless suicide runs and/or milkruns. No one is fooled thaspends any time in the arena.
you say we/I don't have "what it takes" to kill fluffs.... Maybe, That doesn't seem to ring true tho in light of the stats, but... more importantly.... who would want to? To kill gamey, silly fluffs that are an embarassment to a flight simulation is simply..... not fun and, if it's not fun... What's the point? How do I know I am really bored? when I kill a fluff.
Laz, you seem to have a serious attitude problem. All you do is squeak about bombers and telling how little skill is needed and such... It is true that very little aiming skill is needed to hit a target with bombs, but manning a gun on a B17 is harder when a fighter doesn't from dead 6. And I hope the bombaiming will be changed with 1.09.
What is so important about skill that you keep telling that it takes no skill... Why does that make bombers less important? The gunners on bombers were just ordinary young men, not special talented special ops G.I. AirJoe's like your special little self.
"Hard work should not be rewarded unless it requires skill".... You know Laz, I think you lack some serious other skills... social skills. You only seem to be able to make your point if you involve telling the other party how useless they are. You try to keep a lot of B17's in a tight formation with a 700 feet spread max from left to right. See if you got the skills. Now go off, and go impress some girls with your incredible Aces High skills.
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I agree Keez, with the current system it does discourage bombing strat targets (bombing in general really). Hopefully its being looked into.
Ignore the flames, they probably didnt even read your post. Or so it would seem from the ignorant replies.
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Originally posted by LePaul:
As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says. Same thing goes with hangars and other targets. I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?
At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc. This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly. Absolutely silly.
Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy. I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck. The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.
But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez. One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.
They have about as much powerups as the laser guided bombs in the buffs. What is silly about 1 c47 resupplying what 1 buff did? Carpet bombing? In AH? why? There's no need.
Oh, I get it! Game concession/counter game concession. With ya now.
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Originally posted by Keez:
You know Laz, I think you lack some serious other skills... social skills.
LOL!
:D
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Originally posted by Am0n:
I agree Keez, with the current system it does discourage bombing strat targets (bombing in general really). Hopefully its being looked into.
Ignore the flames, they probably didnt even read your post. Or so it would seem from the ignorant replies.
I disagree. Why should 1 buff or 1 buff squadron make such an impact as Keez is suggesting? Ever been in a military/para-military strike? Granted, a 6 man team can cause alot of damage but they can not permanently disable a major facility.
This game is about cooperation. Why don't those that choose to "move the front" do so in a tactical manner? Can't get enough like minded? Then do something about it. Someone should take a leadership role as Ripsnort did in the formation of MAG33. Thats 3 or 4 squads that come together and strike targets, cooperatively.
Guess what they do? Some go after the main target while others go after the supporting targets. Novel idea isn't it?
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Originally posted by Swoop:
I totally agree with this post.
Strategic bombing is bollocks now, there's just no point.
It's all very well having resupply and trains and whatnot for tactical bombing targets but AI resupply should take at least 1/2 an hour......more if intercepted by jabo.
Strat targets should damn well stay down for hours, not minutes.
couldnt have put it better myself :D YES even the bollocks bit <S>
BUT laz and westy have a point here, there must be a ballance and Laz, how about this?
we keep the bases set up exactly as they are with its present high rate of resupply.
We make resupply of the strategic targets such as factories 3 times SLOWER.And the natural respawning of said factories 2xslower.
In one stroke we have MEANINGFULL strategic targets for bombers,there will be less bombers closing bases as hitting factories.
fighter/furball lovers can effectively,if they like, ignore the bombers and furball,those of us(myself included) that like a more complicated game can concentrate on the base captures and stopping the bomber raids.
Bombers have targets that STAY HURT for a good 1/2 to one hour.
Resupply of factories by c47s would become the their focus if we make them the better choice for repairing facories.
what do you think?
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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I think damage repair by resupply is too generous as it is setup now. I was working with some guys to destroy an enemy field, after a fair amount of jabo, a resupply got in and all that work was wasted.
Resupply might be a good part of the game strat, but it should not be as capable as it is now.
dago
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We were at 22.000 feet, in B17's.
At that altitude, in that plane, there are perhaps 5 fighters that stand a chance against a B-17. I'd venture to say even then, the chance is less than 50:50 for everything except the Me262 and Ta152H... even then.. its most likely not above a 1:1.
Summary...
You are asking for more reward from a minimal impact, minimal risk mission. Flying over a base at 22k is not high risk. The flak sucks or is non existant at most bases and the fighters are pigs at that altitude. The B-17 .50s have the ability to all be targetted and fired very precisely and the B-17 handles very well at that alt.
You want all of the advantages, combined with a greater reward.
Sorry... I don't agree with that. As much as lazs turns people off with his style and tones, he has one thing right. The most difficult thing about flying a buff in the style you mention is avoiding boredome.
Bombing just for the sake of bombing should be minimal reward. To say that is historical is an understatement. Its consistant targetting of high risk minimal immediate impact targets that bombers have always been relegated to.
You want to impact something? Bomb an airfield that is being attacked. Bomb a nearby airfield's bomber hangars to prevent re-supply. Do something with support.
Bombing for the sake of bombing will not and should not affect the overall picture more than superficially. Especially a single fricking sortie.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Dago:
I think damage repair by resupply is too generous as it is setup now. I was working with some guys to destroy an enemy field, after a fair amount of jabo, a resupply got in and all that work was wasted.
Resupply might be a good part of the game strat, but it should not be as capable as it is now.
dago
Rubish I say, rubish! :D
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Originally posted by LePaul:
As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says. Same thing goes with hangars and other targets. I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?
At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc. This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly. Absolutely silly.
Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy. I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck. The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.
But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez. One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.
Hehehe, can't but smile at this...
First, current buff model defenders argue that firing arcs, magic norden, high alt manouvering, pinpoint accuracy, infinite zoom, multiple syncronized gun positions, full power infinite cruising with no overheat, no icing effects over 25k, not to mention damage model (as this can be disputed) are either real suff or "gameplay" concessions to make buff run interesting....and then they argue that a goon resupply plane can't possibly rebuild (I assume from a "realistic" point of view) the damage they "realistically" inflict!
Hehehe, yeah, PERK goons, once and for good. These little critters are most unbalancing, unrealistic, and gamey things in this game/sim. :D
Cheers,
Pepe
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Hmmmm, well Keez, I gotta tell ya, your post will get as far as other posts which take the opposite tack; auto gunners on buffs are too accurate, mgs on buffs are too lethal, buff tuff is unrealistic, buffs are too manueverable and cannot be brought down by MG armed a/c etc. etc. etc.
Things is, if there were no oppty for a country to regen it's fields then the country "in the tank" and gettin banged by the other two countries would swiftly wind up knocked out of the war and a arena wide reset would occur. So, I submit that you and yer 30k chums did yer duty and plastered Rook or Kinigit fields; hell it coulda been Rook HQ for all I know :) And you boyz shot down 6 nme fiters which prolly didn't have a chance against the "uber guns" you have :) And you made it home intact...a successful mission I'd say. That the field didnt stay dead isn't a bad thing, they could have been taken by the rest of your countrymen if they had cooperated with your effort. If it was deep in our territory, chances are they wouldn't have gotten far enough in before they were stopped. So what was the point of your mission? A deep field would prolly only be used by buffs anyway. Forward bases tend to be used by nme fiters to get to the hotspots anyway. Was your mission a training exercise? If so, then I'd say you guys did a good job; mission successful and completed :)
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Originally posted by Apache:
I disagree. Why should 1 buff or 1 buff squadron make such an impact as Keez is suggesting? Ever been in a military/para-military strike? Granted, a 6 man team can cause alot of damage but they can not permanently disable a major facility.
Ok, let me see... If 5 B17's go up and there are 50 Bish online, then 10% of the whole airfleet is concentrating on one target. I dont wanna see what happens if 10% of the US Airforce sets out to bomb one single target.
Besides you are interpreting my posts in your own way. I never "suggested" anything at all. I just asked for the target to be down a bit more. We had hit about 75% of the city. There are 2 cities, meaning "the" city is still at 62.5%. Now that aint too much impact at all. And neither did I ask for a facility to be down permanently. Again, that's your own interpretation.
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
At that altitude, in that plane, there are perhaps 5 fighters that stand a chance against a B-17. I'd venture to say even then, the chance is less than 50:50 for everything except the Me262 and Ta152H... even then.. its most likely not above a 1:1.
Summary...
You are asking for more reward from a minimal impact, minimal risk mission. Flying over a base at 22k is not high risk. The flak sucks or is non existant at most bases and the fighters are pigs at that altitude. The B-17 .50s have the ability to all be targetted and fired very precisely and the B-17 handles very well at that alt.
You want all of the advantages, combined with a greater reward.
AKDejaVu
Let me first say that when two fighters concentrate on a bomber at the same time, there is no way the bomber is gonna live. Defenders often just lack co-ordination. I once spotted a small formation of B17's, but didn't attack. I called for help and followed the formation for 10 minutes before two friendlies got up there. We shot down every single bomber, unfortunatly the last one got me as well.
And flying like 90 miles into enemy territory, past three airfields, is NOT a minimal risk mission. It is the most dangerous thing you can do in a buff. Except offcourse for flying at 10K and being all alone. Because it means we flew there and back, that means past SIX enemy airfields, and in the end we got scattered due to not being able to pilot while gunning and engines quitting.
I would gladly welcome a more realistic, a more challangin bomb aiming system, and a more historic gunnery system i.e. not all the guns firing at the same milimeter.
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Then hit depots and railyards and other strat targets :)
>>Well I joined for the fun of pushing home deep strikes, not for the targets to be
completely rebuild, brand new, after a couple of minutes.
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Originally posted by Don:
So, I submit that you and yer 30k chums did yer duty and plastered Rook or Kinigit fields; hell it coulda been Rook HQ for all I know :) And you boyz shot down 6 nme fiters which prolly didn't have a chance against the "uber guns" you have :) And you made it home intact...a successful mission I'd say. That the field didnt stay dead isn't a bad thing, they could have been taken by the rest of your countrymen if they had cooperated with your effort. If it was deep in our territory, chances are they wouldn't have gotten far enough in before they were stopped. So what was the point of your mission? A deep field would prolly only be used by buffs anyway.
Sigh. Every response is welcome but... I stated right at the top of my first post that we hit a CITY. Not a field. You're missing the whole point of the discussion here. We dont concentrate on fields, I think that is more of a JABO job.
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Edited out to come back when I get more time for a more lucid response.
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Apache ]
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Sure I got a response for you :D
Originally posted by Apache:
This game is about cooperation. Why don't those that choose to "move the front" do so in a tactical manner? Can't get enough like minded? Then do something about it. Someone should take a leadership role as Ripsnort did in the formation of MAG33. Thats 3 or 4 squads that come together and strike targets, cooperatively.
Guess what they do? Some go after the main target while others go after the supporting targets. Novel idea isn't it?
Yeah that's realistic. Hey Bish, come on, lets get 40 people together and plan something. I'm already glad that I found a Squadron that is willing to go after strat targets to help the peeps who try to move the front.
I fully support such initiatives tough. But I also have real life to look after. I just want to come online during a squadron day, find my buddies, look at the situation, pick a target accordingly, and move out. I dont have the time to get squads organised and such.
Besides, hitting the city was part of a supporting plan. We planned to hit factories after that, which would stay down longer because we hit the city.
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This is a good thread. not too flaming, just a few singes, no cinders.
Here is something that would provide the type of thing the bomber guys would like. Its also something the fighter guys would seek to defend.
Lets have airplane factories, No resupply to them, just 30-60 min regeneration. These Factories would be A/C specific. First would be B17 and Lancaster Factories, Next might be C47 Factories, Lets add the Common Fighters P51, N1K2, Spit9,FW.
The Big Bombers fly in, Hit the Factories and deprive one of there enemys of one of their A/C for a while. Bomber Guys get to be Heros for killing off those anoying (pick your plane).
The Fighters Guys want to keep some of those precious planes, So they are going to break away from the furball and try to defend.
The Best is when the Bomber Guys Tick-off the enemy Bomber Guys ;D
Maybe we have something simular in place already?
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Grimm ]
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I had thought of a similair system, where bombing factories would make planes cost perks. But I think this would meet too much resistance.
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until something is to change the pinpoint accurracy of bombing so what.
It was an obvious waste of time anyway to go "deep into enemy territory" simply to gloat and "ha ha I got yo city".
Laz is so right on this it makes me sick. But I call it like I see it.
buck up little fluffer you coulda just rearmed and did it again. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wotan:
until something is to change the pinpoint accurracy of bombing so what.
It was an obvious waste of time anyway to go "deep into enemy territory" simply to gloat and "ha ha I got yo city".
Laz is so right on this it makes me sick. But I call it like I see it.
buck up little fluffer you coulda just rearmed and did it again. :rolleyes:
We never went in to gloat and say ha ha I got your city. We went in to hit the city, which would then be down for three hours. After that we were to hit Ack factories, causing your acks to stay down a very long time. Not to mention fuel refineries, or radar factories... Buffs are able to render you blind, unarmed, out of fuel and defenceless. Well, to some degree anyways.
As long as you dont understand the strat system, dont make posts that only make you look bad.
And again, I'm all for a more realistic and challenging bombsight.
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Originally posted by Keez:
I would gladly welcome a more realistic, a more challangin bomb aiming system, and a more historic gunnery system i.e. not all the guns firing at the same milimeter.
And wouldn't that start a squeal heard round the world. I'd pay money to listen to all th little fluffers cryin on ch1 cause they couldn't hit anything from 30k. Shoot the overload of whinin on these boards would probably raise the price of popcorn stock 130%.
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Ok, let me see... If 5 B17's go up and there are 50 Bish online, then 10% of the whole airfleet is concentrating on one target. I dont wanna see what happens if 10% of the US Airforce sets out to bomb one single target.
An assinine statement with which I won't bother commenting on.
Besides you are interpreting my posts in your own way. I never "suggested" anything at all. I just asked for the target to be down a bit more. We had hit about 75% of the city. There are 2 cities, meaning "the" city is still at 62.5%. Now that aint too much impact at all. And neither did I ask for a facility to be down permanently. Again, that's your own interpretation.
You're quite right, I stand corrected. You didn't "suggest" anything, however your intent is quite clear. Taking out resources, no matter the percentage, impacts me greatly if it lasted longer or I didn't have the current ability to resupply. If I get to fly an hour and you have the ability to disable my resources for that hour, you in effect, made that a permanent impact. You have as much ability to stop my resupply as I do to stop your strike.
Furthermore, I wouldn't use numbers if I were you. It belittles your argument. You are here whining about 37.5% staying down longer.
Yeah that's realistic. Hey Bish, come on, lets get 40 people together and plan something. I'm already glad that I found a Squadron that is willing to go after strat targets to help the peeps who try to move the front
So, you want the game changed to your likeing since you don't have the ability or the inclination to coordinate a tactical strike. No thanks.
I fully support such initiatives tough. But I also have real life to look after. I just want to come online during a squadron day, find my buddies, look at the situation, pick a target accordingly, and move out. I dont have the time to get squads organised and such.
Now here is an interesting statement. You, like I have an hour or 2 to kill & want to enjoy our online experience but yet, you want to cripple my time by being able to disable my side for a longer period of time. Why wouldn't I be against that?
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I just can't see an argument for five bombers completely destroying the total resource production of a country for 3 hours. You argue the five bombers represent the larger bomber streams present in the war, I argue that time is compressed to make up for the smaller scale of the map. You get your play concession, we get ours.
As lazs points out, very few carpetbombing strikes did more than temporarily halt production. It was only after a long and concerted effort the Allies were able to completely remove the Axis ability to produce vital materials, and then only in certain areas.
If you want a city, base, or to move the line bring your posse or be satisfied you got in and out alive. If you want to have a lasting effect, sustain the effort. I happen to believe the capability to resupply by air or ground has breathed some fresh air into the game, and in addition given us more targets to kill.
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I'm getting tired of this discussion so I'm gonna round it up for me...
The basic was that I was discourraged that damage that took me ages to inflict was undone in seconds.
There have been a lot of statements, pro and con, and I have to admit that there are things to say for points from both sides.
Apache, I could give comment on each of your comments in your last post, tough it were good comments, but I'm getting tired of it.
I just still hope that some targets can not be resupplied that now can be. Good discussion all, I got to blow off some steam over my dissappointment last night :)
Thanks everyone who participated, I'm out.
;)
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Understood Keez. Good luck in your endeavor.
I <S> you on the manner in which you end your argument.
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I agree with Keez. Let's just go back to 1.07, where the map room was on the field, and goons could only drop troops.
Everyone Ok with that?
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Cuba ]
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Hey guys, 1.09 will bring a serious reduction in the accuracy of level bombers (see the HiTech interview at http://www.wargamer.com (http://www.wargamer.com) ). Instead, we will have much larger bomber formations (60 at once, if all 15 of my squadies get on at once). The ability of a single buff pilot to affect operations at a target like an airfield will be reduced, but against area targets like cities and factories, it should actually be better. I can only speculate that buff gunner leathality will have to change, though how remains to be seen.
Given these changes on the horizons, how would both sides on this argument suggest bombers be used to have an impact on the war in the MA? What changes would you suggest to the strat and logistics aspect of the game? And please let's keep the discussion civil and respectful.
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In reality... what you could do at an airfield was to limit it's ability TO SEND UP FLUFFS. the big fat fluffs were right out on the runway or in the hangers and easy to kill while the fighteres were in revetments and pushed in back behind the trees. airfields were incapable of sending up fluffs but could allways send up fighters. If there was ever a fuel shortage... fighters got fuel not fluffs. I would go for that.
Look... if you kill dar or limit one or another plane or fuel or whatever by simply milkrunning a concession ridden and embarrassing fluff then the people who wish to fly for only and hour or so will log off.... Get it? If you keep that in mind then it is easy to see what people will and will not put up with IN THE MA... do as you like in scenarios and special events where everyone comes on and off at the same time.
Sooo..make the fields closer and easier to capture but make em have fighters available til the bitter end.... Anytime you make fighters fly 2 sectors or even more than about 3/4 of one... your gonna have people bored and logging... Make it so the damn fluffs can't kill the cv fleet... that is so unrealistic that it reeks.
I will admit... if you make the fluffs more realistic in bombing and aiming... yu probly won't get much of a turnout. And PU LEES don't give me this laughable crap about how you are "moving the front" or "bombing everything but the fighter hangers" Sheesh... you are talking to guys that actually are in the arena.
lazs
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and wotan... guess that "How to Mesmerize People by simple Repetition" book I bought was money well spent.
lazs
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Well, I believe it means the strat aspect of the game should be left alone for the time being, at least until we see the impact of so many bombers over a target. I suspect what we will have is more heavy bombers over cities, and more tactical bombers over the airfields. We'll see how it shakes out in the end, though.
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Ah well...so much for keeping it civil and respectful. Lazs, people won't log off, because they didn't before and they don't now (at least not in appreciable numbers). They simply move to another field. Your remarks, repetative as they are, seem to point to a lack of knowledge on military history and doctrine. It was quite possible to temporarily disrupt meaningful operations at fighter fields. The Luftwaffe did it during the Battle of Britain, and the Allies did it in the Battle for the Continent.
It becomes clear to me that what you want out of Aces High is different than what some (not all, but some) others want. Some want to fly WWII aircraft in the context of a larger war. If I read you right, that larger war has no place in the MA. "Let them do scenarios if they want strategy," is your battlecry. Again I ask, who's trying to exclude whom now? There is a balance to be found, if we but search for it, and are tolerant of a little experimentation.
The game part of it, the wargame as it were, has to exist; it can't just be about shooting down other fighters, because such a sim would die on the vine. People in general need a reason to play beyond simply shooting the other guy down. The ability to win the war by taking all the enemy's fields/bases provides that. The ability to affect how easy or had it is to capture/defend those bases is where strat comes in. Capturing fields has to be hard enough that a single player can't do it, but easy enough that you don't need an armada. To allow fighters to re-spawn at a field without restriction (even after flattening the field) is the ultimate in "gameyness," and I doubt I'll find many that disagree. Of course, perhaps I've missunderstood you here; correct me if I am off the mark on what your position is on this.
I whole-heartedly support the ability to temporarily prevent operations at a field by killing the hangers, and to restrict availibility of ordnance and fuel by killing those items. I also believe preventing the convoy from reaching the base (either by killing the convoy or smashing the depot) should have a detrimental effect on operations at that base, but that's a whole nother thread :D.
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Kess I dont under stand strat.....lol
JV44 Wurger-Staffel is always number 1(or close to it) in fluffs.
Check past 5 tours or so.
Dont tell me about strat.........
Its you that make posts about how thankless or pointless your 4 hour fluff raid ended up.
buffs take off by them selves auto climb auto level then are able to hit targets with laser accurracy can out manuver most planes at alt and as longs as the gunner his half way competant he has the potential to kill out to d1500.
with these capabilities so what if your fluff flight ended up being pointless.
There has been a million posts about buffs if you have fun and enjoyed wasting your time then great.
Go enjoy it but when you enter the public arena looking for sympathy well you'll get none here.
so fluff away.
btw the strat system didnt change while you were in flight so its seems either you failed to understand it or needed to be reminded of how it works by how fast the city rebuilt.
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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New Host Message today:
A change was made today on the supply system.
10 C-47 Base Supplies now = 1 Vehicle supply.
Each C-47 supply does 9% of base rebuild times.
It takes 7 C-47s to resupply a city.
-SW
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Well! Would you look at that! Sweet.
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Yeah, you gotta love these HTC guys!
Thanks HT, Pyro, Nate, Supe, Yankee and Ronnie!
What a game, what a company!
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I completely agree with you Keez!!!
Re-supply is too easy and too effective. There should be more reward for such bombing raids and thus more motivation for buffs to fly.... this would also provide fighters more targets :) (I dont fly buffs too often myself)
Just forget the stupid counter arguments from HO-furballers who get upset if their hangars are destroyed and thus their "fun" being spoiled. These guys should be made to defend their precious hangars just like others do.
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Keez:
I didnt miss yer point, and IMO whether its a city or a base doesn't mean much. The issue is resupply and regen. IMO cooperation and effects of the cooperation would have taken that city connected to the field or whatever. In the MA, unless someone goes thru the work of gathering people for a joint mission, it doesn't happen. So, a deep mission to destroy a city is for what purpose? And what difference did it make to have it regen faster than you wanted it to? Meanwhile, there has been a change in the MA, multiple goons are required to resupply a field/city whatever, and many will take said multiple goons to a damaged field to resupply it. How fast depends on the people who decide to fix the field. So, it is still very possible for a buff group to be frustrated and see a field regen before they get outta nme territory. Now, cooperation is a tougher nut. If you want to TAKE a field or city, you don't want the field to regen and, you need cooperation. The military adage rises to the fore: Bombers do not take territory, ground troops do. And for that you need others to help the effort.
You brought up a point which led to another point, and IMO, there is a definite correlation. The only thing I'm missing here is what the purpose of your mission was, which led to your frustration of the city/field whatever having regened? :)
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Rojo:
Buffs ought to be used as strategic assets primarily. They might be used tactically but, in "real life" they were less than successful unless they were hitting railyards etc. Jabos (in WW2) did far more damage in tactical roles than large 4 engined buffs. Vaders did better than the big ones also. If accuracy is the question, then a 30k buff simply is not equipped to hit a gnats arse in a pickle jar from that alt, unless it dropped all of its eggs to hit one broad area, in the hope that 1 or 2 eggs would hit home.
I see the big buff as useful in hitting large depots and railyards, sub pens etc.
Also, the B17 was notorious for NOT being able to hit manuevering nme shipping from hi alts; it was discovered that they were not useful in that role.
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Just forget the stupid counter arguments from HO-furballers who get upset if their hangars are destroyed and thus their "fun" being spoiled. These guys should be made to defend their precious hangars just like others do.
Excuse me, I don't tell you how to have fun. Don't deign to do so for me, either. :mad:
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"Just forget the stupid counter arguments from HO-furballers who get upset if their hangars are destroyed and thus their "fun" being spoiled. These guys should be made to defend their precious hangars just like others do."
Yep... this isn't a game damnit! How dare people have fun when there is work to do. Thanks for making my point bluk... again.
disclaimer... blauk and I do not know each other and are not conspiring to make strat guys look ridiculous. We are doing it independently.
lazs
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disclaimer... blauk and I do not know each other and are not conspiring to make strat guys look ridiculous. We are doing it independently.
lazs
Love him or hate him, he's awfully darn funny! I would love to see Lazs, Creamo, Fatty, AKDejaVu, and maybe Ripsnort on "weakest link".
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
New Host Message today:
A change was made today on the supply system.
10 C-47 Base Supplies now = 1 Vehicle supply.
Each C-47 supply does 9% of base rebuild times.
It takes 7 C-47s to resupply a city.
-SW
Well kick ass! I gues the HTC boys & girls read the BBS (despite the rants, whines, etc) and take our feedback seriously.
Now, about that 500ft radar bar....
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Actually Laz, you're making yourself look ridiculous. Your costant narrow declaration of what constitutes "fun" and absolute lack of regard for other's opinions, makes you seem a caricature.
I agree with you that furballs are fun, but I also enjoy a good groundstrike, or buff raid and BnZ fighter combat. All of those things are fun to me. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person who plays this game and gets fun out of all of those aspects.
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Don: Actually, you've touched on a very interesting topic. It is a fact that heavy bombers were only sparodically used against airfields throughout the war. That was due as much to doctrinal thinking as to any conclusion made as to its effectiveness. It will be interesting indeed once 1.09 comes out to see what effect a force of 30 or 40 B-17s or Lancs will do to an airfield when they dump 180,000 - 560,000 lbs of bombs across it in one pass. Killing bombers may indeed become the number-1 priority in AH, as it was for the Luftwaffe over Europe. The difference here of course is that every side will have the means to do what only Great Britain and the USA were able to do back than; i.e. put up large formations of heavy bombers.
Needless to say, adjustments to the amount of bomb damage required to take out buildings and such will need to be looked at, as will gunner leathality and such. Heavy flak defenses will need to be adjusted as well. And before anyone panicks before 1.09 even gets here, remember that HTC wants to insure that the maximum number of paying costomers gets the maximum enjoyment from playing in the MA. Different things will be tried and those that work will be kept, while those that don't will be rejected. I for one am looking forward to it.
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"Killing bombers may indeed become the number-1 priority in AH"
Just for the record, killing buffs is one of my highest priorities when online. ;)
"I would love to see Lazs, Creamo, Fatty, AKDejaVu, and maybe Ripsnort on "weakest link".
<snork!> That I'd pay to watch :)
Westy
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Originally posted by Don:
Keez:
If you want to TAKE a field or city, you don't want the field to regen and, you need cooperation. The military adage rises to the fore: Bombers do not take territory, ground troops do. And for that you need others to help the effort.
You brought up a point which led to another point, and IMO, there is a definite correlation. The only thing I'm missing here is what the purpose of your mission was, which led to your frustration of the city/field whatever having regened? :)
Ok I know I said I retired from this discussion, but I want to make this clear.
People often refer to a field's town as a "city". While it is in fact the town. This leads to confusion since there already is a big target know as th๋ city, namely that big square with nice targets in em that make factories regenerate slower when hit.
We were not after a Town. We were after a city so that we could do some more strikes after that to make the downtime of the ack 4 times longer, for example. Or to make sure your fuel didn't come back 4 times as long when it has been hit at a field.
We are not idiots. Ofcourse we dont set out to hit the town of a field that is deep in enemy territory. :rolleyes:
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karnak what others on this board state as thier opinion on buffs is roadkill when you look online and see the majority of folks are involved in huge furbals.
They can say all they want about wanting something more then just furballing but especially the past few weeks I've seen over 50 man furballs spread out over the map. So these other opinions dont line up with observation.
The will to furball is only surpassed by their will to gangbang and vulch.
So it stands to reason that if a good majority are furballing/gangbanging/vulching then the fluffer that comes to one of the fields where the action is and takes out the fhs then fun times over till the next one pops up.
I dont how many polls or opinions folks make just look at the map in the main.
What activity are most guys involved? It aint fluffin or jaboing.
I enjoy a good ground attack mission and I fly buffs and no one is stopping anyone from doing so.
But these threads are always started by some whiny buffer about how hard it is or how they get no help or how ineffective their 4 hour tour of the map was.
Well so what.
Most folks arent buffing or care that much about it. Again look at the map where most folks are at. Around some furball or gangbanged base.
Lazs' observations are dead bang on the money proven not by poll or opinion but by observed fact.
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Love him or hate him, he's awfully darn funny! I would love to see Lazs, Creamo, Fatty, AKDejaVu, and maybe Ripsnort on "weakest link".
You actually watch that show? Wow.
AKDejaVu
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Weakest link? What is it, and have I been insulted? Just want to know so I can buy 2 plane tickets to the con next year. :D
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Wotan,
That was an intersting post, but it had very little to do with what I said.
I don't hear a huge clamor here, or online, about buffs ruining the fun.
Yes, most people are engaged in furballs, or BnZ combat, e.g. fighter flight. Most of those seem to be aimed at moving the borders.
Most people seem to feel that there is enough room for all these different things in AH. This is not just my assumption, I have asked.
Laz seems to think quite differently.
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What activity are most guys involved? It aint fluffin or jaboing.
Let's not forget that most of those furballs started with JABO attacks, Woton, with a desire to capture and defend the base. Why? In my opinion, it's because a majority of the players in a country want to win the war, or at least to improve their country's overall strategic position.
Most folks arent buffing or care that much about it. Again look at the map where most folks are at. Around some furball or gangbanged base.
While the numbers participating in level bombing are without question in the minority, and likely always will be, their current scarcity in the arena could just as likely be because there is little reason for them to do so. I believe that was the point of the original post. I don't dispute your evidence; only the conclusion you draw from it. Again, just my opinion.
BTW, Karnak, nice response.
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FWIW, I don't care a bit how anyone plays, nor do I care if someone advocates a type of play for themselves. What I DO care about is when someone tries to tell me what kind of fun I should be having.
Telling me I couldn't be having fun because I chose to ignore a high bomber because A) I couldn't possibly reach him before the load drops and B) I don't want to give him the satisfaction of a possible fighter kill is definitely wrong. If I choose to chase the buff, I will. If I don't, I won't. I won't be forced to under any circumstances; If he closes the base I simply move on to the next one. If he closes them all, I log.
Wheee, aren't we having fun now!?
Go ahead and buff, no prob. I might even do a sortie once in a while. But I would never be arrogant enough to say the game should be changed so that people would have to chase my bomber all over the arena because the damage I can inflict is all out of proportion to the number of people playing.
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<edit>
NM
was a post here but this been whooped to death go check out the other 2 or 3 threads that reached 100+ replies if ya give a toejame........
but I suspect most dont and I reached that conclusion on my own, didn't even ask 1 person
:rolleyes:
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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The damage fluffs do is out of proportion to the skill required to do it. The effect one person can have on the game is too high.
The arena is proof of what people want to do.
B&Z is a legitamate tactic so long as your plane is not untouchable by the average plane in the arena. 51's, D9's, -4's etc. do not belong in the same area of the arena as the mid war planes. The mid war planes do not belong in the same area of the arena as the (as yet unimplemented) early war planes. If you wish to have such a huge advantage over the majority simply because you are a little more patient and immune to boredom... then you are.... wrong. Certainly, right now, the game is set up so that you can do all these things but... You should not be upset when people point out your cowardice/lack of skill.
The front needs to move faster and fields shouldn't be shut down to fighters by a lone suicide/milkrunning/no talent fluffer.
Who would you suggest get the duty of high alt cap to shoot down the aforementioned fluffer while everyone else is having fun? I don't see you guys doing it. Which one of you is doing that???
To say that the people enjoying a good meele are not pissed when one (reread descrition) "fluffer" drops the fighter hangers... That is moronic.
lazs
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Kieran,
I did not say that HO-furballers should not have fun (it is your own problem if you identify yourself as one of them). I was saying that if their "fun" is spoiled by FHs getting destroyed, they should DO SOMETHING to protect their fun instead of whining on how it is getting spoiled by others who play the game the way it can be played. Yes, it is a game, sometimes one wins sometimes he loses... why shouldnt the losses count and affect the big scenario.
Duelling arena is a perfect place for furballs!
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honest... i don't even know the guy!
lazs
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The irony in the original post here is hilarious.
Hooligan
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:)
[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: texter ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
Make it so the damn fluffs can't kill the cv fleet... that is so unrealistic that it reeks.
So...are you going on the record here in support of a single suicide Jug who cant find a furball killing the CV in one quick death dive? :)
And Rojo...just call him Wonton. He likes it. :D
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Ripsnort wrote:
Weakest link? What is it, and have I been insulted? Just want to know so I can buy 2 plane tickets to the con next year. [/b]
Ripsnort, you sissy-farting, Temptation Island-ish idiot of a semen stain. Does insulting "it", that means you, you fetid piece of rotting rectum, mean you'll buy a ticket for me too? :D
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well sling... there are cases of a single bomb laden suicide plane killing a carrier so it is slightly more realistic... However.. There is no case of one killing an entire cv "fleet". The plane is the problem in the fluffs case and the fleet is the problem in the p47 case. If we had more carriers and more ack in the "fleet" perhaps it would work out in the latter case but...
Nothing can fix the fluffs.
lazs
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well that sucks... rip is buying tickets to his bellybutton whooping for guys who have insulted him. Guess it just doesn't pay to be a nice guy these days.
lazs
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LOL Laz. :D
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I totally agree with this thread and the strat issues. AI resupply should be changed IMO. As far as buffing if 6 B-17's come in in formation how many of you would go in there especially if they had a tight box formation? If there were 2 yes I would but more then that you usually end up a flying coffin with a nice red flame. I am a fighter pilot more then anything, but I also want to see the other aspects of the game reflected as well. WE each have something we look for in a game. This one being multiple ways of playing, some buffing it or flying jabo/fighter roles or gv's. Take away one element and the game becomes quite boring IMO. Tactics and strategy play a huge part in this game. If it doesn't for some well then you are the ones not really enjoying this sim to the fullest. Make it fun for all, I say.
(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/sachs1.jpg)
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"The damage fluffs do is out of proportion to the skill required to do it. The effect one person can have on the game is too high.
For me these my pov in these discussions were always based on that one simple and concise statement. I'm not anti-buff, I'm just not at all for leaving it as easy as steering the Disneyland monorail!
Westy