Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on January 20, 2003, 08:43:10 PM
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I like a good 'war' flick, hey; who didn't enjoy the Longest Day, or 12 O'Clock High.. From Here to Eternity... you know; Hollywood War movies.
I especially liked WWII era Movies, good fun hollywood stuff.
But lately, I'm not enjoying war movies as much anymore. It started with Saving Private Ryan. That one numbed me up in the theatre. Kinda left me feeling hollow and morose. A loooong time ago I watched Apoclypse Now.. swore I'd never watch another Vietnam movie... made me really angry. "Whatta bunch of BS.." I thought. Made me feel like kickin Coppola in the balls. Sure wasn't my war.
I saw 'Blackhawk Down'.. I was screwed. I walked out even more depressed than I was after SPR. "no more of these... " I'm thinkin. I don't need to be reminded of what it's like to see men die like that. I got truly drunk for the first time in many years. I managed to sleep ok that night.
Rented "We Were Soldiers Once..." last night. Recent tread topics spurred me to it, and I'd heard from some friends it was 'pretty good'.
Sucked me in slowly it did.. the schmaltzy daddy scenes, the training, the guys standing on the ridge at Benning listening to the skip radio broadcast... tripe. I was actually relieved, this one was gonna be a cornball hero movie.
20 minutes later I had to turn it off. (Blackhawk Down was my very last 'in theatre' war movie. never again I said..) My hands were shaking.. I was breathing hard. I did not feel well. I almost hurled.
Took awile before I could turn it back on.. but I finished it. The last charge was BS, and the terrian where I was was nothin like that. But the rest of it hit home. Hard.
Bad night last night... got a bottle of Dewars here with me, this one should be better.
I dunno for sure what it was... the movie really brought nothin new to the screen about Vietnam. It did however bring home what it felt like. To me. It caught the terror, the incredible ferocity and the feeeling of being uttery powerless to make it stop.
Thank god there was a remote. That made it stop.
I think I'm gettin unstable in my old age. Stuff like this never used to bug me this much... obviously; I need to switch to something stronger in the recreational drug catagory and stay the hell outta the video store. New personal rule.. unless it's made by disney; I ain't watchin it.
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to you for being there Hang.
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Can you believe that when I saw SPR at the theater, there were guys LAUGHING when any soldier was killed or wounded in a specially gore manner? I had a strong impulse of leaving the theater at the scene where the landing boat drops the ramp... and the slaughter began. It was really disgusting, seeing that, and knowing that REAL people, men not much younger than me, had to live thru that...
! Hang...
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A personal thanks to you Hangtime.
:)
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Hang, i have something for you in the Doobie doo thread in our forums. ;)
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I thought that was a well-made movie....it had some of the usual Hollywood crap, but it came across very powerfully.
Don't feel bad Hang, the first time I watched Blackhawk Down I had to leave the room about 1/2 way through it. It hit close enough to home that I really didn't care to watch anymore. Had a sudden urge to have an M60 in my hands again :mad:
I think it's good in a way though, the less they sugar coat these things, hopefully the more people will understand.
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Hangtime, when and what unit and what MOS? Just curious. My Dad and 2 Uncles were over there.
Drinking alone when in a bad mood is bad dude. Even if I'm mixing the drinks alcohol is a depressant.
Stick with the Hollywood movies. The other movies, ideally (as in the director's motive for making SPR), are meant to show people that haven't witnessed such situations first hand that the Hollywood movies are not 'what war is all about'. Having been shot at no need for you to watch those in my opinion. It's like Jerry Rice buying a copy of 'Any Given Sunday'. :)
For what it's worth, the movie 'Apocalypse Now' is based on the book 'Heart of Darkness', which was based heavily on a true story: A CIA field officer with a military background was sent to organize/train/command an army of non-South Vietnamese (in a Nation bordering Viet Nam) and use them to conduct harassing attacks, gather intelligence, etc. He went a little off the deep end in that he stopped checking in when he was supposed to (never targeted friendlies or any other such nonsense, just decided to keep going after the bad guys but started doing all his own top level planning as well). They sent some guys to 'bring him back in from the cold' (no intention of killing him - this was real life) and they suceeded. He lives in the U.S.A. today. A pretty interesting guy - he was one of the 3 CIA officers who tossed the Dali Lama in a car, sped on mountain roads at insane speed to the last non Chinese controlled airstrip in Tibet, and the 4 of them (plus a couple of pilots) took off with PPSh bullets impacting the aircraft.
I've never really been into war movies since I joined the military. 1 possible exception: 'The Great Escape' (not technically a 'war' movie though).
Mike/wulfie
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Band of brothers is a very good series. The troop drop on dday was incredible.
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Originally posted by wulfie
For what it's worth, the movie 'Apocalypse Now' is based on the book 'Heart of Darkness', which was based heavily on a true story:
Errr... I seriously doubt that "Heart of Darkness" was based on the true story you just mentioned. Not unless it occurred before 1924, the year that Joseph Conrad died. Or before 1899, the year that the novella was written.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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>Hangtime, when and what unit and what MOS?
Ehem, yes and if you dont mind me asking and what did Easymo do as well? Sorry to be nosey, just curious.
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Apocalypse Now wasnt trying to be realistic. It was more of a look into the dark side of humanity. It just happens to take place during the Vietnam war.
Awesome movie by the way.
Hangtime dont ever watch Band of Brothers.
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I was about to say the same thing as Levi just did. Heart of Darkness is about a British sailor named Marlow and takes place in the Congo during the 1880's or 1890's when the region was still in turmoil as the various European powers (England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Portugal and Russia) were struggling to gain colonial control.
Wulfie, I have no idea where you got that idea. :)
Hang, my hat's off to you for your service to our nations.
As for Apocalypse Now, it is personally one of my favourite movies if not my favourite. I fully realize that it is not an accurate portrayal of the Vietnam war, nor is it meant to be. The movie merely takes the themes of Heart of Darkness and sets them against Vietnam as a backdrop. The movie is not just about Vietnam, although I liked some of the political scenes in Redux. The whole thing is like a character study of Kurtz and Willard, good, evil and temptation, the psychology of war and horror in general. The messages of the movie are embodied in the first and last parts of the movie. In the briefing and in Kurtz's monologues. Most people think that the movie goes pretty haywire after the Do Long bridge scene, but those ending scenes are the best I think.
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heart of darkness was set in colonial africa on the congo river...there are probably a lot of war movies of the type you like that you have not yet seen. this site has a very complete list of military aviation movies:
http://www.coastcomp.com/av/fltline2/avmovie.htm
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Hang ! Ice age is the cure you are searching I bet
See here : http://www.iceagemovie.com/
It's not a disney but it work to get ride of stress (at least it work for me)
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I read the book "Dispatches", a reporters account of the Vietnam War. Then a few years later, I was watching Apoc Now-redux, and I noticed a few things in the movie taken right out of the book.
Most noticable was when the black soldier at Do Long bridge had his customized M79 grenade launcher. He fires at the wounded NVA, killing him. This were nearly identical to a scene in real life at Khe Sahn where a marine killed an NVA sapper stuck in the wire.
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Erg sorry about the 'Heart of Darkness' mistake it's late here. :)
Apocalypse now is based on a true story (I've read the FOIA-cleared files), and there has been a book written about the guy I'm talking about (field name was Tony P.). The name of the book won't come to me at the moment.
I think I made the slipup based on the 'behind the scenes' movie for Apocalypse Now being called 'Hearts of Darkness' or something along those lines.
For an idea of what I'm talking about, go pick up a copy of 'The Very Best Men'. If memory serves the intelligence officer's field name is listed as 'Tone Poe' or something along those lines. In the chapters dealing with the war in SEA you'll get some information on what I am referring to.
Sorry for the title slipup there - honest mistake.
Mike/wulfie
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Here's some information:
"According to Evan Thomas's recent The Very Best Men, an account of Desmond Fitzgerald, Richard Bissell, and other leaders of early CIA covert operations, his flight was "aided by the CIA…. Tony Poe…was the CIA's man on the ground. He later presented a crayon portrait of the Dalai Lama's flight out of Tibet to Richard Bissell, while Fitzgerald told his family about Poe and the Dalai Lama racing down the runway of a remote mountain strip, a step ahead of the blazing guns of the PLA."
Thomas notes elsewhere that Poe (real name: Poshepny), who later lived in Laos "in a house decorated with a string of ears that had been chopped off the heads of dead communists…," "was sometimes said to be the real-life version of the mad Colonel Kurtz of Apocalypse Now.…"
Poshepny is a Hungarian who served in the USMC before working for the CIA.
Mike/wulfie
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Apocalypse Now is based on Conrad's Heart of Darkness, there's no doubt about that wulfie.
Read the book, you'll see the parallels instantly. The lead character has to find a hunter who was the company's best man, but has gone toto deep in darkest Africa. The film captures the feel of the book really well, even though they are set in completely different eras, and continents.
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Hangtime, I agree some movies did more to harm, the way folks at home treated and talked to Viet nam vets during war and when they got home. My biggest Regret was telling my Brother they day he left for Viet nam, As he is walking away I yell out " kill some gooks for me please". This was the last thing I ever said to him. He was shot down in 1967. Lost 2 older brothers in Viet nam. one that die instantly the other parachuted to ground spent 3 years in prison. I thought I could watch Viet nam movies To understand why My brother came home so messed up, that he thought taking his own life was better than the memories.
My best thoughts were when my father explained to my mom, what and why my brothers gave thier lives. He said "We have to fight communism, When ever and where ever we can, its the only way to break Russia without losing millions of lives in a nuclear war"
I hope your life is going well and hope for peace in your life time you deserve it.
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I won't salute you you old fart. You're losing your mind. Why salute that.
But, since you'll have no use for a mind, why not experiment with it?
I am sure I can procure some interesting mind bending substances for ya :D
ya old bastard. Glad you lived through that hell - and stayed sane.
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Never served here, however when I saw SPR in the theaters, I too walked out with an empty and devastated feeling inside.
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and the Kurtz in Heart of Darkness is based on a RL character too: I think there's even a photograph of him at his hut, around which he built a palisade of skulls. In fact, much of HoD is non-fiction from COnrad's experiences in the Congo (a nasty, nasty, place, btw. In the 1890s Western exploitation killed somewhere between 10 and 80 million people).
As for Apocalypse Now; there's nothing excluding another influence besides Conrad.
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Hangtime, when and what unit and what MOS? Just curious. My Dad and 2 Uncles were over there.
Hiya Wulfie... Jan-Nov 69 with the 9th Inf, Co. E 709th Maint Bn, Dong Tam. . Thats down in the Delta on the Song My river. I was a 62M20.. RT loader and forklift operator.. but I was known a 'Wheels' back then. I drove everything.. primary fuction of my unit was Service and Evac. If it was sunk, shot, crashed or busted, we went and got it, fixed it, scrapped it or cannablized it. We worked pretty close with the Navy, ran support for them too.
I slept ok last night... little muzzy this am. Feelin ok now. I get moody when my memory gets prodded. Faces come back, names. Places. Smells. Bad things, good things. I'll wrap all the memories back up, stick 'em in that place where they stay till called forth by chance. Or mood. Or the way the light flashes off muddy water. Or the smell of diesel smoke or the 'whop whop whop' of a low speed rotor... or a movie that knocks the minds doors wide open; all at once.
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On a sidenote, I didn't like 'we were soldiers'.
I should clarify; the combat scenes were very realistic. I didn't know the Vietnamese attack in numbers - always been told they kept away from direct conventional war with Americans. However this was the irst use of choppers so they might not have worked it out yet.
Didn't know that it was so close fighting - firing literally into someone a few feet away. Was it like this?
What i disliked was the entire start. The depiction of Moore is one dimensional, full of clichés and utterly lacking of depth. Its a classical attempt at showing what a good father/human being he is, classical perfect family picture.
Cheesy 'they stick to you because you're the best' comments. Hero standing up under fire while his much better concealed men gets shot to pieces - not a scratch on Mr Hero.
Long sections of the film were mushy and without point. After 30 minutes of the film my sis said 'man, so far this has been a chick flick'.
While the action sequences were memorable and extremely well done, they overdid the 'grittyness'. Put a toejameload of mud ion the soldiers faces - that automatically guarantee that the viewer sees the film as down and dirty. Seems like a cosmetic shortcut to try to achieve the feeling of 'these are battle hardened soldiers on the verge of giving up, near mental exhaustion. 'Platoon' achieved that goal by carefully relying on charcter building rather than makeup and action sequences. What dialogue there is in this film is either to confirm the great love relationship, fear the wives have, direct commands or cheesy one liners. The film doesn't transport one into the lives of the soldiers - they're unknowns dying in random unpredictable ways. I imagine that that was how it was to be a soldier over there, but in a film you want to know the characters - in three dimensions.
But the combat stuff was outstanding. it's in the top 10 for war scenes, along with Band of Brothers, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket and other great films.
I can understand why the combat would transport a veteran back into the hell hole. But the character building is sorely lacking and there's a feeble attempt at creating characters using well worn clichés and effects and it falls crashing into the ground.
This review isn't meant to diminish the experiences of the soldiers over there or the emotional trauma suffered by real life heroes (IMHO) like Hangtime and his comrades in arms. It's just about the film, not reality.
Hangtime.
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Mr. Hangtime.
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Here is an evolution of a medical term describing exactly the same phenomena:
WWI: Shell-Shock.
Bad, bad term. Mentions shock and shells explicitely. Shells are bad things. We would rather not think of that. Evokes impression of a young guy going mad seing his comrades get blown up by those shells day after day all around him. It may cause us think twice before sendng people to fight.
WWII: Combat fatigue
That is much better. Some young gents got tired doing some exercise. Oh, yea - combat is mentioned. Have to do something about that.
Gulf War: PTSD
Nice term. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Something one's wife gets if she breakes a nail playing raquetball. We can relate to that. No mention of war or military or risking one's life. We've all got stress - in the workplace, with kids, just watching news. Witness the popularity of shrinks, counselling and self-help books.
Stress is everywhere. May as well send kids to fight - same sh#t, right?
miko
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Didn't know that it was so close fighting - firing literally into someone a few feet away. Was it like this?
Like anything else.. depends. Did I see anything like what was depicted? Oh, yes. Sadly.
they overdid the 'grittyness'.
Nope. Underdone. It wan't at all unusual to be asleep in your hooch one minute and 60 seconds later be lying in the ditch wondering if the mortar attack will be follwed up with a wave attack or nothing at all.
. Hero standing up under fire while his much better concealed men gets shot to pieces - not a scratch on Mr Hero.
Luck. Luck played such an immense role.. it's almost impossible to get across to folks that ain't seen her play across the field.. What mattered to all of us was LUCK.. training, combat skill, experience, courage were all in the back seat. Luck was the one driving. I can't tell you how it felt.. there was no explaining it.. you do feel guilty tho.. far more worthy people than I didn't come home. It works on you. "Why him, and not me?...
"This review isn't meant to diminish the experiences of the soldiers over there or the emotional trauma suffered by real life heroes (IMHO) like Hangtime and his comrades in arms.
I'm no hero, Santa. I'm just lucky.
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I asked my co-worker here about the movie, and he pulled out a letter he keeps in his notebook to this day...
It is a letter of recommendation he wrote for a spotter pilot. Here is the short version.
My co-worker (lets call him Art) was a Marine A-4 pilot in 1968 and 1969. During every Marine pilot's tour, he was required to do 1 month as a ground spotter. Art was in the middle of this month when he and his company were ambushed by a large force of NVA.
Now the gound spotter's job was to call the spotter pilot (in a Piper or Bronco) with info on where to drop ordinance, and the spotter pilot would in turn call the A-4's or F-4's with the coordinants. The Marines liked this system because the ground spotter might be kinda excited when he was calling the air spotter, and the air spotter could calmly relay the info to the fast movers.
Art called the spotter pilot, and told him the enemy was 50 yards away and coming in.... too close. The spotter pilot wanted to call in a napalm drop, but wanted to be very sure of the location. The spotter pilot dropped down to treetop level or lower to make sure he had it right, then called in a drop 30 yards for Art's location.
This saved a lot of lives needless to say, so Art wrote a letter of recommendation for the pilot, extolling his bravery and sent it to the proper authorities.
The proper authorities saw the letter and immediately cited the spotter pilot for flying too low. Instead of a medal he got slapped.
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gee hang... you should see what they do with bikers in the old biker flics... I didn't get all maudlin about it tho.
They are entertainment. sean penn and george clooney don't have any opinions worth hearing... nicolas cage and tom cruise overact to the point of gagging me... get over it.
lazs