Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: hogenbor on January 21, 2003, 06:02:38 AM
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So far this is the most difficult thing I've tried to do in AH. After four months I can do all the things I want to do at least reasonably well, but attacking a box of B-17's is fiendlishly difficult because they don't have blind spots in their defensive armament.
If in a lightly armed fighter it's next to hopeless. Yesterday a clearly inexperienced pilot tried to attack a field. I was there in a P-51B and managed a good pass, damaging the lead bomber. The only choice after that was to approach from dead 6 and fire at close range with my four 0.50's. Because return fire was wildly inaccurate I managed to shoot down two of the B-17's while expending nearly all of my ammo. Sheer luck because appraoching a B-17 from dead 6 is usually fatal.
Usually B-17's are up high and getting there in a good Buff killer like a Fw190-a8 (with 30mm loadout) take ages. The a8 is also quite sluggish at high altitude so setting up a pass takes a loooong time. I tend to attack from the 2 o' clock position (level) point my aircraft just in front of the formation and time my attack so that I when in firing range I start to turn, making gunnery for the B17's more difficult. I basically start firing when I hope my shells will hit the nose of the lead aircraft and continue until I'm past the tail of the last. This is quite difficult to time but is sometimes succesful.
However, one fighter against a box of three B-17's is not a fair contest. I believe in my last tour I actually shot more B-17's down than any other aircraft but landing those kills is very rare indeed. Yesterday I stalked a B-17 formation for 15 minutes, finally being able to get a good pass. By that time I had been from 10.000 to 20.000 feet and back to the deck without firing a single shot. I got a few pings at very high speed, but was nevertheless hit fatally when I passed the formation and had to pull up to bleed speed and regain altitude. Aircraft was a Fw-190a5
To cut a long story short : Anyone ideas? ACM against fighters you can learn as you go along, but attacking B-17's is much rarer.
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S!
1 vs 1 against good B17 gunner is deadly busines. If buff formation have 2 gunners (pilot & joined) then sitution is even worse.
Get a 1-3 good sticks with you and try to attack same time from bombers hi/lo 2-3 & 9-10 a clock.
Good luck
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B17 attacks need to be thought out carefully.
The best is to make high slashing attacks from the sides. As soon as you hear pings break, do NOT give him a steady shot.
Approaching from the rear is called the "dead six" for a reason. Unless the bomber is AFK, or distracted you will likely die.
2 planes working together work best. Esp if your on opposite sides. He can only aim at one of you at a time, that one breaks hard, makes himself a hard target. The other guy has a easy run in.
Aim for wingtips, only takes a few rounds to blow a wingtip & buffs can't fly without it.
Formations make things tougher, but give you more targets, line up right and you may take out 2 with one pass.
Lancasters & B26's do a zoom from below as they have no belly gunner.
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The most important thing is to stay fast. A slow target is a dead target.
Second, patience. If you screw up a pass, don't get impatient and fall into his six hoping you'll kill him before he gets you. Take your time, set up your shots, and make them count.
Third, angles. Don't fly straight at him except when you need to fire(If you can be turning during that, even better) The point is that, from his view as a gunner, you want him to have to chase you around the sky, not have a nice head on gunshot of you.
Fourth, guns. Don't even attempt to kill a buff with .50's unless you have a lot of patience. It can be done, but is mostly just a waste of ammo.
Remember: Virtually all buff's kills are people crawling up thier six. You are an easy target on thier six, so don't be there. The gun passes are everything, you need to present the worst possible target to the gunner.
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Thanks guys, but all the things you mention I already found out the hard way.
I hope it's obvious I attack B17's regularly but not nearly as often as fighter to fighter combat... but that is probably true for all of us. I'll just try to perfect the passes then and to don't get impatient...
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An additional couple of comments, when attacking bombers, take an appropriate aircraft. Don't take something with weak guns (like .303's) or something that won't be able to keep up to the bomber (like a Zero). Also, taking something that relies on getting very close in order to land hits can be dangerous if those hits aren't going to inflict serious damage quickly (ie, don't plan on getting close and staying there for long). The best, at least I think so, plane for anti-bomber work is the 109G10 with gondolas and the 30mm spinner cannon. It has the ability to climb above, race ahead of, and then deliver fatal hits very quickly with the 30mm and twin gondola 20mm cannons from many angles. Something slow, like the Zero, has trouble getting to good positions for attacks and has to basically play catchup. Something like the La5 tends to have to get too close to land serious hits, but also has to stay in that very close area far too long in order to really deliver the knockout blow.
-Soda
AH Trainer
The Assassins.
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aim for wingroot or wingtip, not fuselage.
F.
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I fly the F4U-1D alot and I find it very good at takin out B17's. My runs are like this..
get out front of the buff group, and atleast 2k above. Make your run as close to head on as possible. At 2-3k out dive to 1k under buff alt.. for two reasons 1 to gain speed for bugging out, and 2 so that you have that "turning" shot that was mention above. Pull up aiming for the wings...never the fuselage. After making your pass,loop up and over, and break abit to the left or right.... never loop strait up and over. It is very posible to kill a buff-a-pass this way. You can come in from the buffs 1 or 11 oclock possition too, it just makes aiming a bit tuffer. Only do this is you have to, to stop the buffs, it is far better to go in with a wingman to confuse the gunner and share the kills, but how do ya divide that last buff? :)
Maddog Joe
(http://webpages.charter.net/maddogjoe/444th3.jpg)
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Another good way of attacking bombers is from above, using a high speed diving pass.
Approach the bombers from above and when you get above them, roll over and dive down at a steep angle, 45 degrees or so. Aim the nose of your plane between the cockpit and the top turret of your targeted bomber (I aim for the player controlled bomber first) and fire when you get within range. At this steep of a dive angle, the bomber's gunners (especially the top turret) can't track your plane properly. And since you've pointed your nose between the cockpit and top turret, all your shots will fall in the wing root section and usually scoring a kill on the first pass. The benefit of aiming for the player controlled bomber is that when you destroy it, you can get lucky and down all three planes in formation if the player is slow to switch into any of the surviving bombers.
I'll dig around when I get home from work and post some of my bomber kill films.
Ack-Ack
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maddog,
i feel that you have this attack a bit backwards. attacking the bombers from beneath leaves you slow above the guns.
if you have the alt and are in front, use a chandelle, cuban 8, etc. to reverse while climbing and attack from above heading in the general direction of the bombers. this leaves you with lots of speed to climb up and repeat.
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It aids your gunnery to have your ship trimmed properly, especially in a diving attack, where speed tends to build up rapidly. Cut to half throttle, then hit shift + x to trim for angle and speed. After a few seconds, hit x and your ship is trimmed much better for a diving attack.
I like to start my attack from about 3k above from about the high-two o'clock or ten o'clock position, pushing over into a dive parallel to buff's wingtip, then rolling toward cockpit and wingroot as I dive. As the buff moves underneath your diving fighter, continue to roll and pull gunsight slightly ahead of cockpit. As you fire watch for strikes and adjust your lead accordingly. Even if you miss the cockpit you will usually hit the vital wing root areas.
I favor .50 calibers because of their rapid rate of fire and flat trajectory. A three or four second burst is usually enough to bring down a B-17. Your rolling approach from above is harder for the top-turret gunner to track and minimizes strikes against your aircraft.
Regards, Shuckins
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exploiting some "game features" - make your attack run starting from the side and above the B17's wing plane. dive so at 1k you cross below that plane and then pull for the shot.
the gunner will probably be in the top turret and he can't shoot at you when you dive below the wing (he'll need to lead you as well). the switch to the belly turret will take him another split second and will give you the time needed to close the distance without being shot.
Bozon
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Best way to kill 'em IMHO is to come from the lead bomber's high 10 or 2 o'clock - fast - and kill 2 of the formation with close range cannonfire.
190s excel at this b/c of their great hitting power.
For those "I need to stop him soon" six attacks, I usually dive 2k below him and pull to his belly at D1.0, trying not to enter the rear gunners field of fire at all or guns blazing from very close range.
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Another approach that works for me is to approach head on at their high 12 o'clock. Dive to the level of their cockpit, then when about 2K from the buff, dive under his nose and out of his line of sight. This approach keeps him changing gunnery positions, if he's flying alone that is. When you dive under his nose, he has to change to the ball turret, which often has its guns pointing to the rear of his aircraft. He will lose you for a few seconds while he attempts to traverse the guns to the front and downward. This may give you time for a telling shot at his unprotected belly.
Shuckins
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I have found that if you have to approach from the rear and don't have time to climb and stalk (like trying to kill the buffs before they drop) approach from 730-8 oclock or 4-430. also make changes in altitude , because you are at an angle and changing in the vertical it makes it very hard for a gunner to hit even a slow target. Like stated before aim for the wings, or if you are off to the side, try to concentrate hits on the tail. You may kill the tail gun, cause an inexperienced gunner to use all his ammo, or knock the tail off. Using something with cannons helps but is not necesary. Also check the convergence settings of the plane you are flying. I have found that most planes are set to around 250, which makes for a wide pattern at realistic distances. I always set the convergence for around 550-600, this helped my one pass kills not only on buffs but on fighters also.
Now for the unconvential, if you are brave try using rockets on buff formations. if you get the proper angle it works great. I have killed entire formations in one pass this way, but it takes practice and patientce, and is easy to miss altogether and waste a good pass.
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I actually like to stay in the rear-gunner's sight's on approach, but off to the side, like 8 or 4 o'clock and at a distance, say 1k. Being slightly below or above helps too. Angled shots from the tail are extremely tough especially at 1k and it gives you time to react if he starts ranging you well. What I do is stay nice and steady (I like to make him wonder when I'm going to move--psychological I guess, plus I'm gaining speed which I'll need to be less hitable when I slash into guns range) then when I get close to his 9 or 3, bank and slash across his wings until I'm about 1k on the other side. Rinse and repeat.
I use the bottom up method quite a bit too, waiting until I get to exactly below him to zoom up firing a salvo just in front of his nose. Essentially I'm waiting to get the belly gunner pointed down to the point where he has to traverse around to follow me as I zoom up in front. Also, pointed straight down the belly gun doesn't have a good view of the horizon, so it's easy to lose bearing.
Above all, though, I'd fly B17s myself both watching the successful passes of others and the weaknesses of B17 gunnery.
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don't forget the yak9T
one shot one kill, sometimes two shots 1 kill, but it usually only takes 1 shot.
it's fast enough to kill a bomber group, you don't have to spend much time spraying.
You have the potential for 32 buff kills or 16 if it's taking you two bullets per buff.
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there are some very critical don'ts:
-don't make your pass slow
-don't approach from rear
-don't make your approach straight, in the field of fire of one gun
-don't attack me if i am in a buff, please
-don't stay straight after your firing run
-do take the time to get good angle before you attack
-do aim carefully, especially with mg's -- if you can keep hitting one spot for a prolonged period you get much better results.
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all it takes is time ....
above somone mentioned the 11oclock blind spot.
also the sun can really be your ally.
also watch for somone else to in (if there are others around) or use a squaddie as "bait" have the squaddie stay about 1.8+ low 6 wobbling back and forth.
oh well my 2¢
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The quality of the bomber gunner really has a lot to do with it too, and timing. If you can get him while he's in the bombsight and he doesn't have a gunner, well, he's easy bait then. Some guys, you'll find, are deadly in the guns from almost any angle though so any approach is dangerous. I think the common thread though is, set up properly, bring something with guns adequate to get the job done, then get in,take your shot, and get out of harms way. If you need a second pass (count on it), then set it up and make it. Don't rush just to get close.
-Soda
AH Trainer
The Assassins.
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To augment something Soda said, I think it's critical to understand when it's best not to bother with a buff formation. The three most lethal bombers--B17, Ki67, B26. The rest can be toyed with really, but if you don't have the guns don't even bother. This is especially true of buffs that have already made their drop. If you have the guns and a good solid plane, then by all means discourage that fool from ever bombing your team again. But if there are enemies about and your plane is a bit fragile and undergunned for big target, pack it in and look for another fight. After all, the longer that guy takes rtb'ing the longer an enemy team is essentially down a player.
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line up dead six at 1.4 ish , (the range of the LW a2a rockets) fire your rockets blow up b-17's fly home with not a scratch.
I wish .... :D
as said above, slashing attach from 10 to 2 o'clock and try to not fly straight at the guns, so that he always has to lead you.
from 10-2 you hit lead buff and right buff, from 2- 10 hit lead and left buff.
or HO the formation and fire a2g rockets.
I been shot down out to d1.5 so i normallt hang around 1.8- 2.5 ish from formation
:)
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Tactics are pretty well discussed above. Also, off-angle headons can work pretty well, and are useful in situations where settp diving attacks can't be used (like if the BUFF is very low).
Here's my rundown on the better bomber-killers of AH.
NOTE: For all fighters when doing a dedicated anti-bomber sortie, I recommend a convergence of at least 575 as the sooner you can open fire and score meaningful hits, the better. Also, I like the tougher fighters as they can better withstand the occasional hit from the bomber gunners.
Me-163
Although I don't normally discuss expensive perk planes when recommending a plane to somebody, this one is a special case. If you detect an incomming HQ raid and have little time, this is the plane you need as it will reach 30K in only a couple minutes. Only use it in emergencies though due to the large PP risk.
Bf-109G-10 (30mm + gondolas)
This is THE plane to pick if the bombers are high, and you're not. Long WEP duration, fast climbrate and adequate firepower make this perhaps the best pure interceptor in AH for dealing with high bombers. This plane is difficult to fly though because of controllability issues at high speed so I wouldn't use it unless it was the only plane capable of doing the job (in other words, if you have time to climb pick a different plane unless you happen to like 109's). Fly with one hand on the elevator trim--you'll need it. Not very durable so be extra careful.
FW-190A-8 (4 x 20mm recommended)
This is a decent low to medium altitude bomber killer combining good firepower, ammo load and durability into one package. The high rollrate will also help when doing evasive maneuvers. I choose the 20mm over the 30mm because the ballistics match better, plus the 30mm have a serious performance penalty. 4 x 20mm is enough to kill even B-17's with in short order--aim for their wings.
Typhoon
Good for low to medium altitudes. Great firepower with 4 Hispanos, and good speed too. This is a good choice if you have to attack bombers while avoiding escorts, as the speed will help you stay alive. Tendency to suffer radiator damage means you should pick a different plane if you don't expect enemy fighters to be a problem.
F4U-1C
If you're willing to spend the perks, this plane packs the punch of the Typhoon into a tougher airframe with almost twice the ammo load. This is the best bomber killer available from a carrier (surely that CV is worth the 10 or so perks!). Use that ammo load to "reach out and touch" them, out to 1K or so.
P-47D
Often under-rated since it lacks cannon, the P-47 is still a goodt bomber killer. 8 .50's can get the job done, and the huge ammo load and good accuracy of the .50's lets you open up from greater range (even out to 1K against B-17's). This plane is pretty tough and will survive a few pings--but don't get cocky! The P-47 can be highly effective at ANY altitude, even at 30K plus, something which few other bomber-killing fighters can do.
Yak-9T
The one-hit-wonder, if you can hit something with that 37MM you will kill it. OTOH this plane acts like it's made out of tinsel and blows up if you look at it wrong so "one hit wonder" applies both ways :) Definately a low-altitude plane. If you have the altitude, this is the PERFECT plane for the vertical-dive attack.
Bf-110G
Though not often thought of as a buff-killer, the 110G has great firepower (2 20mm and 2 30m) packed into the nose, with a pretty good ammo load to boot! Slow climbrate means this one is best for use at lower altitudes.
Mosquito
If you can avoid getting hit, the Mossie will shred anything quite well. 4 hispanos, with good ammo load, all packed into the nose pack a heck of a punch. This plane is a pretty large target itself though so it's best to work with a wingman who distracts the gunner while you move in for the kill. Like the 110, poor climbrate limits its usefulness to lower altitudes.
N1K2
Good firepower, good ammo load, good climbing and diving ability, decent durability, and great maneuverability make this plane a natural bomber hunter although it's seldom used as such. Thanks to the ammo load, your effective range against bombers is about 900 yards (1.1k or so on a headon) so getting kills is easier. In addition, the N1K can furball all day long so it's the natural choice if you want to be able to kill bombers AND dogfight. It's a bit slow though so don't try to chase down bombers with it--only attack if you can get into position beforehand. Performance drops off above 18K.
Of course, any fighter (and some light bombers) can be used to intercept Buffs, but not all are equally good at the task. The above planes are what I feel are the best readily-available interceptors currently available in AH.
J_A_B
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Couple of points from gunners point of view....
Jumping guns while I'm tracking a target keeps me pointed at my target so I can follow you pretty easily jumping from nose to tail etc (someone above mentioned forcing a jump and maybe the guns will be pointed wrong, this is false, I HAVE YOU ACQUIRED)... therefore....
Don't pull up to make the attack pass, I'll jump from ball to top as you pass and still have you tracked and kill you climbing slow above me..
Don't fly straigh in EVEN if you're not being fired on, I'll wait as long as you let me before firing, I'll skip the calibrate/drop and watch you if I sense you're trying to catch me not looking, and kill you with fewer bullets at d500
Get clear of gun range before making any turn back to me, I CAN track you from gun to gun without losing sight.. several try to roll about my axis close in but give me easy d200-300 shots without even having guns on me, I'll kill you
Dont bother trying to climb up my belly, It's the easiest lead shot there is, I can hit you in ball from 1.4 below all the way up, I'll kill you
Stay 1.5+ away while you're trying to get position, I can hit you at 1.4
Tag teams ARE best just dont both attack from the same angle, then I'll kill you both
If you smoked my lead plane(engine) I wont drop since it'll be a miss anyway, all my attention is on killing you now, you might want to consider your job done at this point and go home alive
If you've knocked down 2 of my buffs and are pinged up, call it a victory and go home.. I can kill you more accurately with just 1 17 (especially if you're already hurt) because there's no longer any fire delay (like with 3 buffs) waiting for my drones to fire as well.
Getting a death count for losing drones sucks, I used to maintain a 2:1 k/d in 17s, now I'm struggling to get 1:1 k/d :)
*hic*
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I found all about attacking B17's quite early in this game. Even today I broke my unwritten rule about attacking them alone and paid for it. Shot down while struggling for altitude at what I thought was a safe distance. To rub salt in the wounds the cocky gunner bade me a sarcastic goodbye as I spiralled to earth with a flaming tail! I know where you live, I'll be back! :mad:
What's interesting about all this discussion is that we are all making the same mistakes and learning the same lessons the real Luftwaffe did in WW2. Head on and curving slashing attacks are the way to go giving the gunner little chance to line up. It occurs to me that an all guns manned formation would be a formidable foe. How about that as an idea for a mission. Shooting down every fighter that dared to come up and fight.
The Luftwaffe resorted to using a heavily armoured FW190 which could close in and blow the B17's straight out of the sky. The only problem was that they were so heavy that they had to be escorted by conventional FW's. A bit impractical in this context I think.
Anyway from now on I just watch B17's fly by and admire their lines and count the number optimists who crash and burn attempting to kill them, unless I get a lucky head-on pass.
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just practice ....
this tour:
Innomi Stats (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats.php?player=jb73&sortby=killsof_sort)
37 kills of and 4 deaths by B17 99% in an Fw 190-d9
tour 35:
jb73 has 41 kills and has been killed 7 times against the B-17G
tour 34:
jb73 has 28 kills and has been killed 3 times against the B-17G.
tour 33:
jb73 has 45 kills and has been killed 5 times against the B-17G.
allmost all in the Fw 190d-9
(i actually surprised myself with this search.. i had to go back to my first full month of stats; tour 26 to find a negative K/D against B17's)
most of the advise above is good, but the more i think about it nobody mentioned the "skid" with rudders to slide across the back of the B17's. you come in @ around 8oclock from 3k alt advantage, then as you are about d700 use rudder to keep the nose of the plane on target while letting your line go directly behind high to low very fast. its hard to describe but if you see it it would make sence.
oh well my 2¢ (again)
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I like using the jug for 17s. I come in like 1000 ft below the bombers aiming for the ball turret then the tail gun on first pass usally comin in fast, if all went right I can sit on his 6 with only out side planes side guns shooting at me. Go for the outside planes then center or he will get his guns back if kill center plane first. I use the jug cause it can take a beating and 8 50 cals aiming at the ball turret and tail gun usally takes them out.
Ive had fighters come in on my B17s that come from high 2oclock almost strait down at me and I had a helll of time getting shots on them but that goes for them getting shots on me too.
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Originally posted by mia389
I like using the jug for 17s.
Since I fly the P-38L 99.99% of the time, this plane is my obvious choice for bomber interceptions and IMO is great in that role. It was designed as a high speed interceptor and it's one role it does very well, a lot better than most might expect. With it's 20mm and 4x .50 cals, it can make very short work of a bombers wing, even with just the 4x .50 cals, you can still take a B-17's wing off in one pass. It also tough enough to take some hits if you the gunner has a bead on you.
After the P-38L, the Me262 is my second choice for a bomber killer. I don't like the Me163 with it's low seating and crappy visibilty. Reminds me of a low rider.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by Innominate
Fourth, guns. Don't even attempt to kill a buff with .50's unless you have a lot of patience. It can be done, but is mostly just a waste of ammo.
Agree with most of what you said and normally say but this is totally wrong. I fly the jug mostly and I can tell you my 8 50s can eat a wing in 1/2 with a 2-3 second burst in one easy pass. :D