Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Terror on January 22, 2003, 10:19:11 AM
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As a side note to the "AHII FM" thread. Some people seem to have a misunderstanding of what a stall is.... (and I didn't want to hijack the thread.)
A Stall can occur at any speed, attitude, or altitude . A stall is defined as "the angle of attack exceeding the critical angle of attack of the wing." A roll or spin induced from a stall is an effect of one wing stalling before the other. If you stall both wings at the same time (ie. you are "coordinated") there will be no roll or spin, the nose will drop and you will gain airspeed. As you get slower, it is easier to force the angle of attack past the critical angle of attack, because at slower speeds, you need more angle of attack to create enough lift to keep you airborne.
An "Accellerated Stall" is just a stall that is "accellerated" due to control surface inputs (Elevator, aileron, or rudder) at speed. A "snap roll" is an example of a "accelerated stall" manuever. Essentially, the pilot, through control inputs, stalls one wing before the other to maximize a roll manuever.
Each plane has it's unique stall characteristics. This is due mostly to differences in weight and balances, engine torque, p-factor, slipstream, gyroscopic precession, and wing shape. But all planes in AH can and will stall, all can spin. Just some are more forgiving in the amount of time it takes to recover a bad stall.
Terror
PS. Just in case: Angle of Attack is the angle of "wind" to the chord of the wing. Critical Angle of Attack is the angle at which the "wind" can no longer flow smoothly over a wing.
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Good explaination. But some people already understand stalls but question the tameness of AH stalls. You can usually recover from an AH stall by just letting go of the stick. This was true for some WWII fighters, but not all. Some were very difficult to recover from, like the P-40.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
Good explaination. But some people already understand stalls but question the tameness of AH stalls. You can usually recover from an AH stall by just letting go of the stick. This was true for some WWII fighters, but not all. Some were very difficult to recover from, like the P-40.
ra
Some planes are very rough to recover from, if you let the stall get past the "incipient spin" stage. (Though, just a tad bit of opposite rudder just as you "feel" the spin start almost always stops it from turning into a full spin.) Tough planes to recover a "full" spin that come to mind: F4u-1, YAK9t, TA152, SPIT14, and the P40. Though almost all the planes will come out of a spin with opposite rudder and forward stick, just gotta be careful that you don't over-recover and invert the spin.
The only time I have read about really difficult recoveries in most WWII planes was when CG was shifted backwards due to an aft tank being full.
Terror
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Thought you'd like this video. I posted it some time ago, but it's relevant to the topic, so here it is.
http://casal.upc.es/~danig27/barrena.wmv
It's a spin recorded from a CAP-10B aerobatic trainer.
Three full rotations with a loss of altitude of 1000 ft.
Daniel
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I can remeber a Stall that i did a WHILE back. One of the strangest to date...
I went up after a con and when i stalled back my cockpit was turned towards the ground and there was no way of getting out of it. I am decent when it comes to stall recovery but this time it was impossible. Was pretty cool tough :)
Plane was a P51.. I stalled her out at about 45 MPH when it happened.
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That's when my girlfriend says " I have a headache"
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Originally posted by ra
Good explaination. But some people already understand stalls but question the tameness of AH stalls. You can usually recover from an AH stall by just letting go of the stick. This was true for some WWII fighters, but not all. Some were very difficult to recover from, like the P-40.
ra
says who? from all i understand about teh p-40 is that it was very easy to recover from a stall - all you had to do was let go of the stick.
the hogs and ponys, otoh...
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From http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74518&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by F4UDOA
I have run several test today. The question I have about the FM is what do you consider a stall? The AH FM tends to mush forward and loose altitude before stalling or wing break. I believe the stall begins when you can no longer hold the horizon. Correct?
Originally posted by hitech
When you can no longer maintain 0 decent.
HiTech
Or try this definition:
http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/vdamp.html#sec-stall-definition
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Terror is 100% correct with his definition of a stall infact it's almost directly out of the FAR/AIM manual.
What im refering to is whats normaly called stall speed.
HiTech
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According the RAF tests I am familiar with the Spitfire Mk XIV had to be held in a stall otherwise it would recover itself.
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Originally posted by WldThing
I can remeber a Stall that i did a WHILE back. One of the strangest to date...
I went up after a con and when i stalled back my cockpit was turned towards the ground and there was no way of getting out of it. I am decent when it comes to stall recovery but this time it was impossible. Was pretty cool tough :)
Plane was a P51.. I stalled her out at about 45 MPH when it happened.
WldThing I believe that was probably an inverted flat spin. It is possible to recover a pony from this but it takes a lot of altitude. The procedure is quite similar to the recovery process of an F16 in a deep stall.
1) release controls
2) throttle to idle
3) rudder opposite to yaw direction
4) Override (in the P51 you dont have a manual pitch override)
5) cycle stick in phase to nose oscillation or pitch bobbing
When the nose stays down and airspeed starts to climb your out. Dont get heavy handed again :)
Originally posted by Shane
says who? from all i understand about teh p-40 is that it was very easy to recover from a stall - all you had to do was let go of the stick.
the hogs and ponys, otoh...
Stall maybe but this beast would kill in a low altitude spin. Ive forgotten who the test pilot was but he was sent to Curtiss by Chenault to try the P40 out before leaving for Burma and eventual assignment to the Flying Tigers. During his first flight he spun the P40 from under 3k and only recovered at about 20ft. It was written in the book up until that time that a spin that low was impossible to recover from. It was he that learned you had to fly the plane out and that normal spin recovery methods would not work. I want to say Don Anderson or maybe Tex Hill. Maybe WideWing knows.
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I think we also take it for granted what happens in nature vs. trying to repeat that in code. That's gotta blow some minds.
nice post Terror.
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I think it'd all become much clearer and remove any misconceptions, if you'd purchase 1 hr of "spin training" in a Super-Decathlon (or other inline aerobat).
Stalling a wing in uncoordinated flight, angle of attack, etc,, will take on a whole new meaning (other than clinically written descriptions) when that nose snaps over, you float off the seat only held in by the harness, and the ground fills the windscreen, as it whirls in a living collaidascope of blur'd colors.. The altimiter unwinding like the crazy clock in "Alice in Wonderland" on drugs..
Well worth the $150. You'll have no more question about AOA, Stalls, etc.
:-)
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RV-6, spin a T-6 sometime... you will learn the true meaning as to why they placard the darn beasty with "Intentional Spins Prohibited" It is one hair and blood pressure raising ride.
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Spinning the SD is great fun, snaps are wild. Got where I could come out withing 5 degs of heading with 3 turn spins.
Not looking forward to inverted spin training thow, but want to get it under my belt for safty.
HiTech
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Originally posted by GPreddy
Stall maybe but this beast would kill in a low altitude spin. Ive forgotten who the test pilot was but he was sent to Curtiss by Chenault to try the P40 out before leaving for Burma and eventual assignment to the Flying Tigers. During his first flight he spun the P40 from under 3k and only recovered at about 20ft. It was written in the book up until that time that a spin that low was impossible to recover from. It was he that learned you had to fly the plane out and that normal spin recovery methods would not work. I want to say Don Anderson or maybe Tex Hill. Maybe WideWing knows.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of who this might be. I can check though. Curtiss did send test pilots to China to assist Chennault's people. Senior Curtiss test pilots at the time were B.T. Hulse, Ed Elliott, Herb Fisher, H.L. Childs, William Webster and Robert Fausel.
Fisher spent a great deal of time in the CBI working with P-40s and C-46s, eventually flying over a hundred combat missions. He was the only civilian pilot to be awarded the USAAF's Air Medal (personally by FDR).
My regards,
Widewing
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Off the top of my head, I can't think of who this might be.
I read a similar account by Corky Meyer, Grumman test pilot. He was flying a P-40 for some reason, and as he was used to tame Grumman stall charateristics, he managed to get the P-40 into a spin. He was told later that no one had ever managed to recover a P-40 spin in less than 5000 feet before.
ra
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Originally posted by Terror
As a side note to the "AHII FM" thread. Some people seem to have a misunderstanding of what a stall is.... (and I didn't want to hijack the thread.)
I'm sure that everyone knew what a stall was before you started this thread. A stall is when someone answers "two weeks" to the question "When will the next version of AH be out?"... :D
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Originally posted by GPreddy
WldThing I believe that was probably an inverted flat spin. It is possible to recover a pony from this but it takes a lot of altitude. The procedure is quite similar to the recovery process of an F16 in a deep stall.
1) release controls
2) throttle to idle
3) rudder opposite to yaw direction
4) Override (in the P51 you dont have a manual pitch override)
5) cycle stick in phase to nose oscillation or pitch bobbing
When the nose stays down and airspeed starts to climb your out. Dont get heavy handed again :)
Nice quote but from the Falcon 4.0 book,
In reality throttle would go to Mil power in the F-16 which btw is almost impossible to get in to a deep stall However it can be done but you have to work very hard at it!
The process for the F-16 it's as follows
A2.9. OUT-OF-CONTROL RECOVERY:
(1) Controls - Neutral
(2) Throttle - MIL if in AB
IF IN AN INVERTED DEEP STALL:
*(3) Rudder - Opposite Yaw Direction (Delete This Step if the Aircraft has TV Code 105)
IF IN AN UPRIGHT DEEP STALL OR STILL IN AN INVERTED DEEP STALL:
(4) MPO Switch - OVRD and Hold
(5) Stick - Cycle in Phase
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cc heater but wont work in p51 that way. This is the only way I have recovered one in aces high and fortunately it started at 28k and the g10 behind me compressed. If I hadnt flown other games I wouldnt have figured it out.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"The procedure is quite similar to the recovery process of an F16 in a deep stall."
lol. (.... talk about deja vu.....)
Are you telling us from experience, repeating something you read in a book or were told by someone who knows?
Dying to know ;)
Oed
I've heard there are some scorpions that know quite a bit about this
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You could fill a thimble with what you know on this subject aub and still have a thimble of nothing.
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Originally posted by GPreddy
You could fill a thimble with what you know on this subject aub and still have a thimble of nothing.
*looks around* I was just trying to answer Oed's question! I'm innocent!
And how come ya jumped on me, and not him, cutie pie
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it is so hard to get an F-16 to get into a deep stall is you have to beat the flight computer at its own game, which is...keep the plane flying. There are several parameters that you must exceed intentionally, excessively, and at the same time in order to distract the computer from its task.
Let's put it this way, it is a task that must be taught to instructor pilots in order for them to put it into a stall so they may evaluate a student on the task of stall recovery.
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Originally posted by 2flie
it is so hard to get an F-16 to get into a deep stall is you have to beat the flight computer at its own game, which is...keep the plane flying. There are several parameters that you must exceed intentionally, excessively, and at the same time in order to distract the computer from its task.
Let's put it this way, it is a task that must be taught to instructor pilots in order for them to put it into a stall so they may evaluate a student on the task of stall recovery.
When are you going to get your bellybutton back in the p-47 and start flying again? About high time you show Frenchy how a P-47 is really flown :D
Ack-Ack
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Why do I feel like I'm being setup?
I'll tell you the truth, it will be months, perhaps years, even if I do show up in the MA, before I regain SA. Needless to say that there are tons of people more familiar with the edges of the envelope and capabilities of this airframe that I will be practicing for quite some time within the arena before I'm showing anyone how to "really fly" it. :D
(What's the altitude limit in the MA, anyways?)
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Speaking of stalls its interesting to note the Discovery Wings channel did a one hour show on US Navy pilots, flying F-18's, training with a German outfit that flew Mig-29's. I believe it was a joint Nato venture designed to teach differences training and tactics to it's signatories.
What caught my attention was in a mock dog fight the Mig actually roped an F-18. If I remember right the F-18's HUD was showing 45 knots as he stalled, nose up. What was cool was he kept stiring the stick trying to recover. Finally, he took both hands off the stick and put them on the canopy grab handles. The F-18 then auto recovered as it was programmed to do. That was the first time I had seen a programmed recovery in a fighter. I looked into it some more and it seems a CAT launch has the pilot grab'n the handles for a "hands off" takeoff. When I was messing around with the Skyhawk A-4M sim at Memphis NAS. The standard CAT launch had you tuck yer elbows in so as to minimize stick movement during the shot. Times sure have changed.
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Originally posted by 2flie
Why do I feel like I'm being setup?
Because you are :D
Originally posted by 2flie
What's the altitude limit in the MA, anyways?
Come on up, we'll show ya up close and personal like ;)
Why you stirrin up trouble AKAK? Speaking of which, it's getting time to come on up and hunt you down, hehe ;)
bro
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Originally posted by 2flie
(What's the altitude limit in the MA, anyways?)
To take this literally.... I've been over 100K ft before getting bored and diving to my death. Twas in a ME163 at the 2002 AH CON.
As a note: at 50K ft AH quits calculating air density and resets to Sea Level. (Or at least thats how it seems....)
Terror
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I looked into it some more and it seems a CAT launch has the pilot grab'n the handles for a "hands off" takeoff. When I was messing around with the Skyhawk A-4M sim at Memphis NAS. The standard CAT launch had you tuck yer elbows in so as to minimize stick movement during the shot. Times sure have changed.
F/A-18's have (had?) a really big problem with pilot-induced-oscillations at take off. Simplest fix: get the pilot out of the loop. :)
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Blue, you are right. The F-18 is made to take a CAT shot "hands off" due to the computer. "Fly by wire" has taken the pilot completely out of the equation. Pilots who fought the computer would induce PIO ( pilot induced oscillations ) that could land them in the drink :) Now the F-14 on the other hand is another beast entirely.
When launching in a Tomcat from the cat, the pilot positions his hand just behind the stick to keep it from coming to far aft during the cat stroke. With a good trim set, the tomcat will fly away from the water with no control inputs required. But setting the trim "perfectly" in a Tomcat is an almost impossible task. So, once clear of the deck, the pilot holds the aircraft attitude at 10 degress nose up for the climb out In the Hornet, the computer does this for them.
Been there, done that:)
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
get the pilot out of the loop. :)
That's the best way to fly a p51 :D
inlinewatercooledmerlinluvin dweebs, hehe
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1Duke1! I did a search on F18 and Hornet, and found this thread. Not worth starting a new one, so let me ask here. I had a T-shirt with a F18 Hornet on it about 12 years ago. Now they're talking about the F18a SuperHornet. In what ways does the Superhornet differ from the original Hornet?
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F18a
the superhornet is Actually the FA/18 E/F
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Sounds like terror has a flight manual laying around or something :D
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A stall is where bish and knits sleep during the night.
:D
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Originally posted by Biggles
A stall is where bish and knits sleep during the night.
:D
.........with a harem of captured Rook sheep. :D