Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: moose on January 08, 2002, 05:36:00 PM
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Does anyone else miss the times when squads would run those huge missions to kill someone's HQ.
I know it 'ruins the fun' for some to have their radar down but back in 1.07, that was the 'elite' thing to do.
I miss getting up with the Assassins in 109s or Ta152s and trying to knock down those bombers before they got our HQ. Or maybe the times when we took like 10 arados and flew a jet HQ run. Those were incredible.
With resupply of the HQ on, countries are harder to reset because they don't lost dar as much. I know it's supposed to help gameplay but in effect, it just leaves a country in the bucket longer because they don't have the manpower to overcome the odds and neither does the enemy.
I'm not whining because the new resupply system doesn't really hurt me. It's just that nowadays no one wants to do those huge buff raids because the result is usually fixed by the time you land. So it's removed the most immersive part of flying from the MA for me and I wonder for anyone else too?
Dunno if there is any way to go back to the old system, but if we did I'd be willing to bet the MA would be a lot different. (just with turning resupply off for HQs)
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"squads" and "we" ?
You mean Zigrat, Ripsnort, Funkedup, Hangtime and only a few others. Well the means to make those missions is still. The mission builder is just waiting for entrepenurial type people to put it to use again.
Mission builders don't cause missions. People cause missions. :)
If I'm online Moose and I hear you call out for a mission I'll join up. Course I'm usually in the CT so... :)
Westy
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Not much point in joining a long range buff mission any more. I've been in about 3 since the strat change. Fly in a huge buff formation or escort a buff formation for 45 mins. Then have an M3 or C47 undo all your work in a few mins. That's just frustrating in my books.
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
"squads" and "we" ?
You mean Zigrat, Ripsnort, Funkedup, Hangtime and only a few others. Well the means to make those missions is still. The mission builder is just waiting for entrepenurial type people to put it to use again.
Mission builders don't cause missions. People cause missions. :)
If I'm online Moose and I hear you call out for a mission I'll join up. Course I'm usually in the CT so... :)
Westy
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
Nice gesture Westy but....for some reason if the "right name" isn't listed as a mission creator all ya get is 1's and 2's to join. I gave up. (and do appreciate those times you did join btw). When I want to see a nice big mission I wait until squadnight and do it with the =RATS=.
Tumor
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Tumor ]
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it just seems like no one wants to do it anymore because the strat element now lets you undo all the havoc those runs used to cause
why waste time intercepting a 30k buff raid on your HQ when you can just run a bunch of goons over and fix it right after they drop?
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Flying Circus usually runs missions in Bishland on Sunday Nights. Buff missions with scorts the works. Depends on the folks on-line to run them!
I can smell a Ripsnort mission many grids away :D Usually two billion bombers with scorts to match, and 862 goons :D
They're fun to try and defend against......and guess where they are going. Fun not only to fly in a mission, but to foil one also!
Ripsnort we'll get ya yet! :D
[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Hajo ]
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im right with u moose, it was allways big fun both to join in on the bomber missions or to see the bomber in on dar bar and try and intercept them with fighters.
Before the resup strat was in play both HQ and city raids were common i allmost did them every night,(and it did not "have" to be Ripsnorts name in planner to happen)
But now there is just no point in doing it like u said it will just resup 5min later and im not sitting in a bomber for maybe 45 min just to hamper the HQ a couple of min it need to stay down like it used to do before this resup strat came in.
I think the strat targets should not be able to resupplied and the new maps with 2 citys its allmost impossible to get city to 0% and then hit HQ
Well thats just imo.
"Rompa"
332 Viking Squad (http://www.332viking.com)
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Agree with ya Moose!
Add APAR to the new General (mission maker) for Knits, he's got a talent for missions! Hazed and a few others make missions too...knits have alot of mission makers.
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Anybody catch the buff attack in Frame 4 of Big Week?
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we had 15 buffs and 8 p51's up for a mission last night.. I know thats not HUGH but it was fun :)
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don't know about that but I sure don't enjoy the current way of fluffing in the arena.
Come in high over a field where everyone is engaged down low in a single or pair of fluffs and drop the fighter hangers so that the fight is over. or the "Look at me I did a milkrun on your radar" mission..
Fluffs still have way to much effect on gameplay for the skill required.
lazs
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"why waste time intercepting a 30k buff raid on your HQ "
Why? Just for the pleasure of shooting some of them down! That's what I'm here for. I could careless if land is gained or lossed. Whether we win any "war" or not. I'm here to blow things up and shoot things down. (I do care very much if a solo dweeb can use a 25K lanc to single handedly ruin good dogighting action though)
Tumor, I liked joining your missions too. Unfortunately that was about the time my online play began to be curtailed due to RL. But the problem many folks who build missions have (in general, not singling anyone out) was they made missions that mostly only they would like. Missions would take foever because the take off base was several grids behind lines. That's boring for most. Or having a very limited plane selection. Most succesful missions has some bomber, more Jabos and a mixtuire of escort aircraft. They also did not take an hour and a half to get to the target whihc allowed a spy to narc on the mission. Or the huge glob would show up on radar and it was easy to see where it was heading by the enemy.
Missions have to be short, fun and allow for fighting after the eggs are gone. After a short while good mission builders get a reputation and when they announce a mission in the works people are eager to join in. Even then they sometimes have to advertise it on the country channel repeatedly. But quite often theier mission get so much respect for the fun they cause that some can get almost a wholeside to join one in. Much like Hangtime could.
Also! Folks who play "war" in the MA have been asking for more complex strat for years. Well, now they have it. What that means is mission planners need to take the new "strat" into account. You'll have to take out the depots and supply capability at other close bases either at the same time or just before the strike on your main target.
Milk runs are simply a thing of the past.
Westy
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All my HQ raids were done under 25K, with 25k a max ceiling...this is so the mission was not boring, gave the opposition a chance to intercept, and gave our Escort something to do. To fly higher than 25k in a buff is, IMO, just gaming...why bother if your untouchable?
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Originally posted by moose:
Does anyone else miss the times when squads would run those huge missions to kill someone's HQ.
HQs)
Moose, but there's a new thing to do and it's way better than the old HQ raids. Here's what you do.
1. Get sufficient buffs together to kill HQ
2. Accompany them with a number of fighters. The fighters can also protect the buffs.
3. When HQ goes down, wait about 3-5 minutes and then the fighters spiral down.
Guess what you find? :) IB goons, and even better, when they figure out what you're doing, you get IB low alt fighters. :)
We did it during squad night last Monday and if a freaking train hadn't made a timely appearance, they still wouldn't have DAR back. :)
curly
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Yes curly thats exactly what im talking about those damn trains should not be able to resupplie HQ then ur tactic would be very effective and fun to :D
"Rompa"
332 Viking Squad (http://www.332viking.com)
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I miss seeing some of the Buff pilots. I know Sunchasr and a few others have hung it up for a while, hoping the strat element comes back.
Lazs, a typical moronic post. You musta been the kid with $4 worth of quarters sitting on the "Asteroids" machine :)
Its pretty pointless to buff anything when the BIG, MIGHTY C-47 can outhaul all of the free worlds cargo fleets and rebuild a devestated airbase in 1 mighty air drop. Can you say "Quake Power Up"?
Dunno why HTC even keeps the bombers in the aircraft list at this point <shrug> Congrats, Laz got his wish, the buff guys dont fly anymore. It was stupid enough as it was with craters doing no damage to vehicles/aircraft taxing or driving into them. I guess in hindsight, it was only a matter of time before our bombs became totally ineffective.
Yup, I'm burnt out :D
Which way to the BUFF Counseling Room? :)
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: LePaul ]
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Did anyone call me?
<looks around>
No?
Ok, just thought I heard my voice.
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all decent responses
i guess it just seemed to mean more back then
i must be getting old
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Yes, strat targets should not be resupplied at all, either by AI trains or by player goons.
Protect them or lose it. I'd like to have the 1.07 city/hq , but with the 1.08 field/town/resupply system (but city and hq and factories not resuppliable).
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I know what Moose is talking about, the last such raid I had the chance to cripple was led by CavemanJ B17 Meister himself...
I miss those too!
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"I guess in hindsight, it was only a matter of time before our bombs became totally ineffective."
Nope. What became ineffective was solo buffing without skill or fore thought.
Westy
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
"I guess in hindsight, it was only a matter of time before our bombs became totally ineffective."
Nope. What became ineffective was solo buffing without skill or fore thought.
Westy
Why not attack the ISSUE and not the poster, eh Westy? And who are you to assess what skill I do or do not have? Oh I forgot, your a pompous ass. Pardon me, forgot.
BTW: I seldom flew alone, and usually had 2 or 3 along with me...those raids were awesome...didn't always make it TO targert, or back FROM target, but there was no doubt if we did, the base would be dead...for more than 2 minutes, too.
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: LePaul ]
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Just a follow up on what Hajo said ealier.
The Flying Circus hasn't down a Hq or city raid for some time because of 2 factor:
1) Target is resupplied with in minutes of the strike makeing it a pretty darn big waste of time.
2) The last 2 we did were completly ignored by the enemy except for 1 or 2 fighters.
It's no fun if no one tries to stop you.
Also, We too limit the altitude of the Bombers to around 25k sometime as high as 27k.
Vati
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I don’t know. I like the new strat system but it does seem to easy for repairs to come. One goon repairs the entire HQ which is good if you’re the defender but crap if the attacker.
Yes you can go low and hunt for goons but how much longer does this really keep the radar down? Not anywhere near the time it was when the city was down then HQ. I’ve been in a position where the HQ was trashed, the depot next to it down, trains destroyed, but one must have been missed. It was a smoking ruin for about 10 minutes, then all was good again. It was a lot of effort for very little reward.
Maybe there should be fewer trains, running at half the schedule, and rebuild times increased for infrastructure targets. Not to mention increasing the number of supplies the HQ needs to rebuild. Might even go so far as to highlight the position of trains with a separate color dot.
Zippatuh
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"Why not attack the ISSUE and not the poster, eh Westy?"
I did.
You're problem is you are not able to discuss this topic without getting all bent out of shape and taking everything as a personal slam. I mean just reread your post that I was replying to. You're incapable of using facts and gameplay reality to discuss this. You're post is ripe with whining conjecture and exhagerated speculation besides containing a personal attack on another AH community member.
Westy
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Originally posted by LePaul:
Lazs, a typical moronic post. You musta been the kid with $4 worth of quarters sitting on the "Asteroids" machine :)
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: LePaul ]
Originally posted by LePaul:
Why not attack the ISSUE and not the poster, eh Westy? And who are you to assess what skill I do or do not have? Oh I forgot, your a pompous ass. Pardon me, forgot.
Hate to call you on this one.
Don't let this degenerate into a flame war. I just wanted my opinion to be heard so that if hitech or pyro do ever think about revisiting the strategic rules, they'll know what side *I* stand on.
If we had nearly as many big buff raids to intercept that were actually dangerous to gameplay, I wouldn't care about if the HQ could be resupplied or not. The reason it was so immersive before was because if you *didn't* stop the buffs, then you were SOL for 30mins - 2.5 hours.
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Well this must wet your appetite for 1.09.
"What I’m trying to do is balance the [strategic] bomber aspects with the JABO [or fighter-bomber] aspects. In the end what I want is to incorporate what bombers did well, which was mass area bombing, and not pinpoint bombing. Today, when you look at the previous strategic system, that was real hard to do. What were doing is starting to incorporate a lot of targets in a close area, so that I can start doing things like each bomber pilot fly’s four buffs all at once versus just one bomber. Then that gets enough ordnance load that I can do dispersion bombing techniques. One guy controlling a force of bombers is much more about game play than about realism. Obviously no one [person] flew four bombers, but at the same time there was never [just] one bomber that went out by itself. So it’s a compromise with realism…I want him to control multiple bombers so when he drops a load of ordnance, I can throw in dispersion. He does hit his target because he has enough ordnance dropping on target to do what real area bombing did."
from:
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp)
Westy
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Hey LePaul, come fly IL2 with me till HTC gets around to 1.09 then we can come back and check it out.
Forget the main though, let them have their super talent requiring arena and we will just milkrun around the CT, if they don't end up calling it something too ridiculous to be seen in.
O'Westy, in your accusation of LePaul of a personal attack on an AH community member, you seem to have forgotten your previous post where you attacked an entire segment.... any solo bomber pilot.... of same and in fact included a pretty good personal attack on LePaul yourself in that paragraph.
And some would consider what you regard as a personal attack, especially if you are talking about what LePaul said to lazs, a simple statement of fact.
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Sunchaser if you think saying things like "moronic post," "pompous ass" (no problem with that myself as I am but it's still emotional name calling) and "You musta been the kid with $4 worth of quarters sitting on the "Asteroids" machine" the same as "What became ineffective was solo buffing without skill or fore thought." then you have the same problem as he does.
For the FACTs are:
Buffing does not take much skill; takeoff, use super simplistic bombardier poistion to drop unerring bombs on an unevading stationary target, then auger, die or maybe even land. Little to no forethought is being used; I better have an scort or a team plan to hit the underlying infrastructure so that the enemy cannot use supplies to restore thier base. And solo bombers have definately too much of an impact on the gameplay of others. One "bomber" flying person can end the dogfighting for dozens in a split second. Where as solo dogfighters do NOT have that same ability at all.
Westy
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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LePaul, yer right!
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Westy's post is not moronic. He's just pointing out how large "the scope" is. You have to bomb the infrastructure also. Train station, Depots and the like so trains and supplies can't be taken to the target for some time after it has been damaged. If the depot, rail line, or rail station are within a few grids it won't take long to rebuild the target. If however depots rail lines and trains are taken into account and attacked, damaged or destroyed the difficulty with rebuilding the target is greater! Hence the target will stay down as long as supplies can't get there!
There's more then just hitting the main target, it's hitting the satellite targets that supply it and keep it up and running!
Now that's strat!
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Hajo ]
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Originally posted by Sunchaser:
LePaul, yer right!
Westy is Lazs' love child :D
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I don't know if all the "true" fluff drivers have turned in their mouse fluff controls and left AH but we still have plenty of lone, talentless, unskilled, suicide gameplay spoilers milkrunning fighter hangers.
The "true" fluffers did it more often which simpley translates into they gamed the the gameplay more eficiently and pissed off more people. Now fluffs ruin the game for less people.... lepaul and sunchaser no longer play much in the MA and are reduced to daisychains of back slapping and group hugs.
These are all good things but... We have a whole new group of attention starved and tallentless fluffers who want nothing more than their skilless milkrunning to "count" in an extremely lopsided way.
lazs
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Laz and westy have this handled pretty well.
I'll just say its a good thing fluffing is finally in check some what.
The thing I find must remarkable aboue the buffers I see is their is a whole strat thingy out there ready for the fluffers.
But where do they go..... to kill the fhs at the bases that have the most number of folks fighting at.
HQ really isnt a strat target with the exception of dar which in it self is rediculous when each field has its own dar
But by hitting the real strat no one would pay umm much attention and it would take more folks and a even longer time to accomplish anything.
Theres twns depos all sorts of facilities train stations etc for fluffers. But they would be ignored.
The reason the big hq buff raids were responded to was because you either killed umm or spent 2 hours having less fun.
Now for the most part i ignore them they aint hard to kill they are just pointless.
I say make the runway shorter and add more trees nothing like an auto take off fluff dweeb cryin over channel 1
"buffs are pointless we cant even take off"
:)
the good 'ole days...
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Originally posted by lazs1:
The "true" fluffers did it more often which simpley translates into they gamed the the gameplay more eficiently and pissed off more people. Now fluffs ruin the game for less people.... lepaul and sunchaser no longer play much in the MA and are reduced to daisychains of back slapping and group hugs.
LOL....that made my day... :p
You're right Laz, in the last week, I've only played Aces High for about 2 hours or so...way down from a few hours a night. But while you group Sun and I as "no skill" buff drivers, we flew in support of large raids and helped our respective countries take bases and along those Strat goals, Win.
Clearly you don't comprehend the Strat Role of Aces High, and even their documentation here points out that this is a Strat Game. Or, you disregard it and slam on the people who fly anything with more than 2 engines.
Whatever. You wanted the bomber guys gone, 2 are out. You claimed we ruined your fun, and HTC gave you guys what you wanted, a magical powerup of a super-goon to reverse what took us an hour to takeoff, climb to alt, get to target and bomb. Its always been a pig pile on the buff guys... :rolleyes:
[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: LePaul ]
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"Its always been a pig pile on the buff guys.."
Darwinism at it's best.
Westy
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(http://www.nlcs.k12.in.us/deckardb/cross1.jpg)
Does this sum it up? :p
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LOL - nice pic.
Zippatuh
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lol. literally :D
Westy
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Dammit LePaul, I ain't out yet....as in I am still paying, at least till 1.09 gets a ride..
If I left entirely do you think I would even be concerned with the gnats around here?
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Moose I remember running into one of your 10+ Ar-234 raids in my own 234. Since we had no guns I tried to ramm every plane in your formation to no avail. Go figure when you want to you can't when you dont want to some fediddlein newbie runs into you. Anyway I agree I miss those huge raids, but the 262 can nullify them now and the resupply makes it virtually pointless unless you own the bases by the HQ. In point I miss those raids.
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Perhaps HQ would become a fun target again. A the days of 45 min flights in Ju88 to bomb a HQ. Perhaps with the 1.09 "Buff Version" things would be back to normal (1.07). And now way if u should be allowd to rebuild with a suply dropp, it has ruined the game for many Hq buff pilots. HQ should be a massiv complex of factories, radars and AA. And the rebuild time should be 2 hours.
In my humble oppinion offcource.