Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gman on January 23, 2003, 05:43:07 PM
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/17/nmart17.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/01/17/ixportal.html
Tony Martin, the farmer jailed for shooting dead a teenage burglar, had his application for parole rejected yesterday.
The three members of the Parole Board, who met in London to review his case, gave no reason for turning him down.
A friend of Martin's claimed that it was because a probation report branded the 58-year-old "a danger to burglars".
Others suggested that a primary reason was Martin's refusal to express remorse for shooting 16-year-old Fred Barras when he and another burglar raided his remote Norfolk house at night in August, 1999.
Martin, who will automatically qualify for release on licence in July after serving two-thirds of his five-year sentence for manslaughter, was said to have been resigned to the decision.
Malcom Starr, a friend and leading supporter who visited Martin in Highpoint Prison, Suffolk, called the decision "an absolute disgrace".
He said: "These people on the Parole Board are completely out of touch with public opinion. "All right-thinking people agree that Mr Martin should be released immediately."
Mr Starr, a Cambridgeshire businessman, said Martin told him a Probation Service report to the board criticised the farmer for "not being up to speed with the 21st century and of thinking things were better 40 years ago".
Mr Starr added: "A lot of prisoners lie and say they are sorry about something when they are not. He was not prepared to lie. It is not a question of 'does he feel sorry'. He feels he should never have been intruded on and he acted in self defence."
Richard Portham, another friend, said: "He told me that the Norfolk probation service was recommending that he should not get parole because they considered him a danger to burglars.
"I suppose the attitude came across in this report that he would do it again."
The shotgun Martin used on Barras, from Newark, Nottinghamshire, was illegally held. He had lost his licence after an incident when he fired on a car trespassing on his farm.
GG UK!
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"a danger to burglars".
only in britain and kaliforina
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""I suppose the attitude came across in this report that he would do it again."
Golly-geen right he should do it again!
Mr Starr added: "A lot of prisoners lie and say they are sorry about something when they are not. He was not prepared to lie. It is not a question of 'does he feel sorry'. He feels he should never have been intruded on and he acted in self defence."
good for him for standing up for himself. its like they want this big tearful apolgy for violating the social order..well screw them..
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This article isn't very convincing as it only contains quotes from friends and supporters. The law is the same in the US, you can't use deadly force on an intruder unless you have reason to fear a physical attack. If he couldn't convince the jury of that, then he goes to jail.
There are a lot of things about UK gun laws I wouldn't be comfortable with, but so far this case is not an example of one of them.
ra
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RA let me did up quotes from this specific trial. Tony was assaulted as was his wife when he used the Shotgun in self defence. I'll find em and post them up.
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actually RA, the Castle Doctrine allows this:
"Castle doctrine" is a legal concept which allows you to stand your ground rather than have to retreat from an assailant who confronts you WITHIN YOUR HOME"
(http://www.floridatoday.com/sections/emergency/force.htm)
Q. What if someone is attacking me in my own home?
A. The courts have created an exception to the duty to retreat called the "castle doctrine." Under the castle doctrine, you need not retreat from your own home to avoid using deadly force against an assailant. This only applies when you are inside your home.
Example: Two men were fist-fighting in the common hallway between their apartments. One of them shot and killed the other. The Florida Supreme Court upheld the first degree murder conviction of the defendant, rejecting a claim of self-defense.
The court said the defendant could have and should have retreated. The defendant in the above example claimed that because he had one foot in the doorway of his apartment, he did not have to retreat. The court rejected this argument, saying the defendant should have gone inside and shut the door.
The castle doctrine applies if you are attacked in your own home by an intruder or an invited guest. The castle doctrine does not apply when the attacker and the person attacked both have the same legal right to be inside the home, such as husband and wife.
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I believe you can shoot any intruder in your house in the US. You cannot shoot them outside your house if they are running. You must drag them back inside after shooting. The home invasion presopposes that you are in danger if someone is in your home.
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Then explain the case in Texas where the Japanese foreign exchange student and American friend went up to the wrong door for a Halloween party and the Japanese student was shot dead and the Texas shooter wasn't guilty of anything.
As for that Castle Doctrine, you still state in there that deadly force in your own home can only be used "against an assailant" which is totally different from an "intruder." All I know, if you do ever shoot someone in your own home, make that shot count and shoot to kill so there is no difference as to the events that took place.
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"I believe you can shoot any intruder in your house in the US. You cannot shoot them outside your house if they are running. You must drag them back inside after shooting. The home invasion presopposes that you are in danger if someone is in your home."
Dragging a corpse into your home after shooting them outside is really bad advice.. its roots are in urban myth. tampering with a crime scene will not do you any favors when you are arrested for shooting someone. and they will know if you dragged someone.
also, Puke..you don't have to ask a stranger what his intentions are when he breaks into your house. the fact that he's there can be enough to constitue a threat to you.
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Hawk's right on both points. Dragging a bleeding body into the house is more than just a little obvious. And going to get you in real trouble. Plus, not all states have any requirement that you retreat. For instance, here are the Arizona laws concerning self-defense:
13-401. Unavailability of justification defense; justification as defense
A. Even though a person is justified under this chapter in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another, if in doing so such person recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.
B. Except as provided in subsection A, justification, as defined in this chapter, is a defense in any prosecution for an offense pursuant to this title.
13-403. Justification; use of physical force
The use of physical force upon another person which would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal under any of the following circumstances:
1. A parent or guardian and a teacher or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or incompetent person may use reasonable and appropriate physical force upon the minor or incompetent person when and to the extent reasonably necessary and appropriate to maintain discipline.
2. A superintendent or other entrusted official of a jail, prison or correctional institution may use physical force for the preservation of peace, to maintain order or discipline, or to prevent the commission of any felony or misdemeanor.
3. A person responsible for the maintenance of order in a place where others are assembled or on a common motor carrier of passengers, or a person acting under his direction, may use physical force if and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to maintain order, but such person may use deadly physical force only if reasonably necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury.
4. A person acting under a reasonable belief that another person is about to commit suicide or to inflict serious physical injury upon himself may use physical force upon that person to the extent reasonably necessary to thwart the result.
5. A duly licensed physician or a registered nurse or a person acting under his direction, or any other person who renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency occurrence, may use reasonable physical force for the purpose of administering a recognized and lawful form of treatment which is reasonably adapted to promoting the physical or mental health of the patient if:
(a) The treatment is administered with the consent of the patient or, if the patient is a minor or an incompetent person, with the consent of his parent, guardian or other person entrusted with his care and supervision except as otherwise provided by law; or
(b) The treatment is administered in an emergency when the person administering such treatment reasonably believes that no one competent to consent can be consulted and that a reasonable person, wishing to safeguard the welfare of the patient, would consent.
6. A person may otherwise use physical force upon another person as further provided in this chapter.
13-404. Justification; self-defense
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.
B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:
1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or
2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or
3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:
(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and
(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.
13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force
A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:
1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and
2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
13-406. Justification; defense of a third person
A person is justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another to protect a third person if:
1. Under the circumstances as a reasonable person would believe them to be, such person would be justified under section 13-404 or 13-405 in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force to protect himself against the unlawful physical force or deadly physical force a reasonable person would believe is threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and
2. A reasonable person would believe that such person's intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.
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Originally posted by Gman
RA let me did up quotes from this specific trial. Tony was assaulted as was his wife when he used the Shotgun in self defence. I'll find em and post them up.
Hmm, slight lapse in facts here:
Tony Martin does not have a wife.
Tony Martin was not physically assaulted
Tony Martin shot a 15 year old gypsy boy in the back as he ran away.
Tony Martin had his murder conviction reduced to a manslaughter conviction on appeal, citing ground of diminished responsibility.
Tony Martin often spoke about rounding gypsies up in a field, surrounding them with barbed wire and machine gunning them.
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Read about this some days ago and found it total lunacy. How many rapists/burglars/car theives are set free early showing no remorse? it's also mentioned he said in interviews with the parole board how it was safer in the 50's and he wishes for the same kind of lifestyle people had in the fifties....so what? he's right! these days criminals are pampered and have far too many loopholes to slip through the law.
Tony Martin often spoke about rounding gypsies up in a field, surrounding them with barbed wire and machine gunning them
Excellent idea! wandering scum, a social parasite
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A close friend of mine is going to court for alledgedly threatening some Verizon employees with a gun who were trespassing on his yard.
He merely had the gun in his hand and never pointed it at anyone.
The Verizon guys refused to produce ID and when my friend called the company he was told that they were not employees of their company. So he grabbed his gun and told them to leave.
Now he may face a jail term.
He lives in Delaware.
Strange...you are allowed to own guns in the US but if you try to use it for its intended purpose (protection) you get arrested.
Please explain.
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Move to Tx. We have no problem shooting burglers here.:D
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You're right Bounder, was another incident in the UK with similar circumstances, which I read on another board, but it wasn't Tony Blair, rather some other poor shmuck.
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Originally posted by Revvin
quote:
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Tony Martin often spoke about rounding gypsies up in a field, surrounding them with barbed wire and machine gunning them
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Excellent idea! wandering scum, a social parasite
Mmm, nice sentiment there Revvin. I take it we can count on you to pull the trigger.
Do you reserve those feelings purely for Gypsies, or do you feel that way about homosexuals and Jews too?
Either way you are in some really choice company with your beliefs.
(can you guess what I'm getting at Revvin, or is your brain cell otherwise occupied; deciding which hand to toss yourself off with whilst you fantasise about killing gypsies in cold blood? Tough choice eh?)
Gman, to my knowledge, Tony Blair has never been convicted of murder (yet), only elected as Prime Minister of Britain.:)
Which 'other incident' were you referring to? (genuinely interested).
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Tony Martin had previous convictions for owning illegal guns.
(Before the ban on handguns)
Tony Martin had previously shot at people stealing an apple from a tree.
In short: Tony Martin was a class A nutter that shouldnt have been in jail, but in a mental institution, long before the shooting happened.
I would find a better martyr if I were you.
Daff
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Yes perhaps shooting them is harsh in cold blood but not if they are raiding your house and I would feel no remorse at pulling the trigger if in a situation like Tony Martin was and had been plagued by for years. As for your equally moronic reference to gays perhaps this is your own desire?
As for my feelings about gypsies..they are social parasites as far as I am concerned and they are scum roudn them up and ship them off to an island off the coast of the UK.
As for Daff's flippant remarks about martyrdom nobody is making Tony Martin out to be a martyr just showing surprise at another stupid decision made by a bunch of do gooders who look after the criminals better than the victims.
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Originally posted by ra
This article isn't very convincing as it only contains quotes from friends and supporters. The law is the same in the US, you can't use deadly force on an intruder unless you have reason to fear a physical attack. If he couldn't convince the jury of that, then he goes to jail.
There are a lot of things about UK gun laws I wouldn't be comfortable with, but so far this case is not an example of one of them.
ra
erm.. you need to state where in the US you are referring to. Back home, down south, someone breaks into your pad you've got all the license you need to blow'em to hell, as long as they don't fall outside (then ya can get in some trouble)
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And just before someone points out that Tony Martin is now a convicted criminal then perhaps pause to think how this would never have happened if the police and justice system had done their job and locked up the two burglars who had a long criminal record as did the Barras family in general.
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Originally posted by Curval
A close friend of mine is going to court for alledgedly threatening some Verizon employees with a gun who were trespassing on his yard.
He merely had the gun in his hand and never pointed it at anyone.
The Verizon guys refused to produce ID and when my friend called the company he was told that they were not employees of their company. So he grabbed his gun and told them to leave.
Now he may face a jail term.
He lives in Delaware.
Strange...you are allowed to own guns in the US but if you try to use it for its intended purpose (protection) you get arrested.
Please explain.
Only in Deleware Curval....that state is waaayyyyy left.
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Originally posted by Rude
Only in Deleware Curval....that state is waaayyyyy left.
:D So it's USA (except Delaware) USA (except Delaware) that I see people chanting at sporting events, Victory marches etc, etc.:D
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Originally posted by Revvin
Originally posted by Bounder:
Do you reserve those feelings (rounding them up in a field and machine gunning them) purely for Gypsies, or do you feel that way about homosexuals and Jews too?
Yes perhaps shooting them is harsh in cold blood but not if they are raiding your house and I would feel no remorse at pulling the trigger if in a situation like Tony Martin was and had been plagued by for years. As for your equally moronic reference to gays perhaps this is your own desire?
>>Whistling sound of historical reference flying over Revvin's head<<
As for my feelings about gypsies..they are social parasites as far as I am concerned and they are scum roudn them up and ship them off to an island off the coast of the UK.
You should be more careful Revvin, your true colours are showing.
I'm glad to see you have moderated your position on Gypsies, from murdering them in cold blood to deporting them to the Isle of Wight. I guess you couldn't pull that trigger after all.
Are you sure you wouldn't simply prefer to issue the order to execute all gypsies, and have someone else carry it out for you? That way you wouldn't haveto pull the trigger.
As for Daff's flippant remarks about martyrdom nobody is making Tony Martin out to be a martyr just showing surprise at another stupid decision made by a bunch of do gooders who look after the criminals better than the victims. [/B]
All the participants in this little drama were criminals. One of them was a killer.
What should we do with the 'do-gooders' Revvin? Same as the Gypsies?
Voting BNP next time Revvin, or are they a little too weedy and moderate for you?
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Revvin: there used to be people who totally shared your view on the Gypsies, and even did something like you suggested.
Know who I am referring to?
Well good to know what you are too then :mad: :mad:
As for Gypsies camping around the countryside, I don't know what to say. Known for thieving I belive. Do they camp anywhere, like on your barleyfield, or do they try to stay away from damaging fields/crops? Well, being a farmer, if a group of people camped just like that in my barley or whatever, and started pinching my potatoes or whatever crops, I'd probably move them un-gently out of the way with my tractor/frontloader.
No need to shoot them is it?
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True colours showing? my opinion is there for all to see and I do not try to hide it. As far as I'm concerned gypsies are scum and social parasites. People have tried to help them only to see it slung back in their face. They are lower than pond life...don't like it? tough sh*t.
What right did Feron and Barras have to trespass forcibly into Tony Martin's home? they had no right and if they had been good law abiding citizens they would not have been there and it would have mattered not if Tony Martin wandered round his house all day with his shotgun. Feron and Barras both have a long criminal record and the justice system failed to protect Tony Martin as did the police who after numerous reports by Tony Martin refused to extend their patrols to the small village being plagued by burgalry. In fear for his life he fired a warning shot, sadly it killed a young man but that young man should never have been there but then perhaps it was inevitable considering the criminal background of his family and aquaintances.
Angus> and if you tried to forcibly remove them then sadly you'd be arrested and charged while they stood there laughing. It's not just rural area's that are affected. Cardiff suffers from this blight and despite the best efforts by the council to accomodate them they still roam the city trashing site after site like a rolling crime wave that has to be cleared up at the tax payers expense and local business's.
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Removing somebody from my property could be done in 2 ways.
1. Call the coppers.
2. Kick them out. Most farmers are equipped nicely for the job, - I can easily pick up a car and drive it off the premises without scratching it a lot:D
Anyway, there is a long way from there to shoot-and-kill, - and mind you to kill in 1 shot with a shotgun, the target has to be rather close.
Gypsies being a pest or not, it gives you no more right to kill them than the Nazis had. Share the colour with them if you like.
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Originally posted by Revvin
True colours showing? my opinion is there for all to see and I do not try to hide it. As far as I'm concerned gypsies are scum and social parasites. People have tried to help them only to see it slung back in their face. They are lower than pond life...don't like it? tough sh*t.
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Revvin you are entitled to your opinion, of course you are. No matter how hateful and poisonous it is, it's still your opinion and you have a right to express it.
You merely reiterate my point that your true colours are showing. You think Gypsies are scum and lower than pond life. Do you reserve those feelings for Gypsies exclusively or are there any other races that provoke this sort of intense hatred and sentiment?
What right did Feron and Barras have to trespass forcibly into Tony Martin's home? they had no right and if they had been good law abiding citizens they would not have been there and it would have mattered not if Tony Martin wandered round his house all day with his shotgun.
[/B]
Ferron and Barras had no right to be there. That is not in dispute.
The only thing stopping Martin from wandering around his house with a shotgun was the fact that he had been explicitly forbidden to own or operate one, due to his penchant for opening fire on people. In fact not only was he banned from using a shotgun, but he had never had a licence to own the pump action shotgun he used in the killing. (Pump action shotguns require a differnt licence altogethr.) Martin was also found to have hidden a sawn off shotgun in his garage. Shortened weapons like this are completely outlawed in the UK. Martin, like Barras, demonstrated utter contempt for the law.
Feron and Barras both have a long criminal record and the justice system failed to protect Tony Martin as did the police who after numerous reports by Tony Martin refused to extend their patrols to the small village being plagued by burglary.
[/B]
No dispute there. They were burglars, trespassing on his property. Yes, rural policing is in crisis all over the UK. This does not in any way provide grounds for killing people.
In fear for his life he fired a warning shot, sadly it killed a young man
[/B]
Wrong. He fired a warning shot from the first floor. That shot did not hit either of them. That was clearly established at the trial. The second and third were discharged on the ground floor; the shots hit Ferron in the crotch and Barras in the back.
Barras was running away.
The warning shot had worked, but Martin then aimed for the boy and shot him in the back, killing him.
but that young man should never have been there but then perhaps it was inevitable considering the criminal background of his family and aquaintances.
[/B]
Irrelevant. Fred Barras was a serial offender, a known petty thief, with no convictions for violent crime.
Tony Martin was a man with a history of misbehaviour with guns going back 20 years. Perhaps it was inevitable that he was going to shoot someone dead, considering his history of poor impulse control with guns, dating back to 1976. His criminal record was longer than Barras' entire life.
Now if you believe that death is an appropriate sentence to be meted out for burglary, and that you also believe that the trial and sentence may be carried out by a deranged man with a criminal record himself using a pump action shotgun then your assertions may have some internal consistency.
Otherwise your argument seems to be predicated on the fact that you think all Gypsies are scum and they deserve to die.
Perhaps you'd like to elucidate your assertion that all Gypsies are scum, maybe you'd even like to expand a little and explain why we even have Gypsies in this country, who they are and where they came from. That would in some way at least help me understand why you have such a violent reaction to them. Or is it a case of you assuming that the actions of a few represent the actions of the whole?
However I suspect that any attempt by you to do so would merely reveal your ignorance about Gypsies, adding further to my opinion of you as someone who is happy to tar an entire race of people with the same brush, based on the actions of a few individuals whose origins, culture and lifestyle is different to your own.
Now if you were a Welshman, do you think it would be reasonable for me to assume that all Welshmen are bigoted misanthropes with a penchant for mass murder?
As it happens all of the Welshmen and Women with whom I have the privilege of friendship are thoughtful and rational; but I wouldn't dream of tarring you with the same brush (if you are indeed Welsh) as you are so patently different to them.
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You merely reiterate my point that your true colours are showing. You think Gypsies are scum and lower than pond life. Do you reserve those feelings for Gypsies exclusively or are there any other races that provoke this sort of intense hatred and sentiment?
You can keep jumping on one off the cuff remark made after a tiring and stressful day at work all you like but only make yourself look stupid when you then try to accuse me of being homophobic or a rabid BNP supporter.
Barras and Feron had no right to be there that much is certain but whether Martin had a license of not if they had not been there he would not have been able to shoot them and that point you cannot dispute, the gun license is irrelevant.
The sad fact is that the Metropolitan police have now said they will not follow up any burgalries unless they have a lead or a suspect in mind and that this new policy is very likely to spread to other forces so on top of the police being derelict in their duty in following up many reports made by Martin and the other residents in the area but now they won't even bother to pursue a burgalry case. Where will this end? reluctantly I'd have to concede in a few years we could end up like America with many citizens armign themselvesfor the safety of them and their family.
The warning shot had worked, but Martin then aimed for the boy and shot him in the back, killing him
Martin's house was often in darkness, he was an eccentric (not a crime unless you read some tabloids :rolleyes: ) and kept his house in darkness and due to his fear of burgarly had set about booby trapping his home (a little irrational sure but what do you do when the police ignore you?) Taking all this into consideration he could'nt have told you if he was firing at a man, the lock ness monster or scotch mist.
You seem to have this quaint view of gypsies of a people who go round telling fortunes towing an elaborately decorated wodden caravan with a horse. I've had plenty of experience with gypsies and on the whole found them to be just as described infact only yesterday they gave another reason to dislike them.
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Nope Revvin. Just diggin to see if you felt the same way about anyone else that's all. I'm happy to see you don't. I would never accuse anyone of being a homophobe unless I had direct evidence
But still, I feel compelled to harangue you because your generalisations about the Roma simply aren't borne out by the real world.
I have a bee in my bonnet about the persecution of groups of people for no other reason than they are different. Gypsies have been persecuted in this country for nearly 500 years. That sort of a history might jaundice their view of Britain as a fair and accomodating society.
I'm not going to defend the actions of criminals, whether they are Gypsies or not. Your corollary that because all the Gypsies you encounter are worthless scum and lower than pond life, then all Gypsies must be that too, smells of lazy thinking.
The Gypsies and travellers I know don't conform to your model. Not even remotely. I play cards with some good friends now and again, a couple of whom are Roma Gypsies. I know their families, our kids play (occasionally, when we meet up) together. They've given up the nomadic lifestyle a generation ago when it became almost untenable due to the number of sites shrinking so rapidly. They live on a council estate and make a living from scrap, tarmaccing and other itinerant skills (even tho they are not itinerant). No-one will give them a job because of who they are (no, neither of the guys has a criminal record).
They've tried to conform to our society as much as they can, but often they are met with the same brand of hatred and contempt that you espouse, but from our national institutions as well as individuals. Are you now going to insist that they are scum and should be deported?
Yes there are criminal Gypsies, and they are in a higher proprtion to their population than the national average. And there are dole scrounging Gypsies too, also in a higher proportion than the national average. What does this tell us?
That poor people resort to crime and state handouts. Take a similar sized sample of Orchard Park residents in Hull: they have a similar level of poverty to that of the Gypsies, and similar proprtions of criminality and state dependency.
It's not because they are Gypsies. It is because they are poor. And why are they often so poor? Because they have been sytematically persecuted and excluded from society over the last 500 year. Just because they are different .
And you seriously can't expect to produce a bald endorsement of Tony Martin's wish to round up gypsies in a field and kill them, without someone calling you on it, off the cuff or not, stressful day or not.
Do you really believe what you say, or are your feelings reserved only for the Gypsies you have encountered?
I am only seeking to clarify your position. I feel that mine is quite clear.
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The term Gypsy is not a 'race' in today's terms and as we are talking about a modern day example then your insinuation of being racist/homophobic don't really apply and you were the one to use the term then this is the context I took it in. The subject of the real history of the Romany Gypsy is another topic altogether.
If you just want to jump on one remark then fine but that just shows a lack of intelligence not being able to debate the actual subject. What I'm tired of is a justice system and police force that now set about persecuting generally law abiding citizens, the soft targets such as motorists. The police were very quick to act when Tony Martin was finally pushed into defending his home against an intruder and were quick to condemn him in various press releases whereas Feron walked free almost with a pat on the back and sympathy from a justice system that has so terribly failed Tony Martin.
In the modern sense of the word Gypsy yes I feel that the majority are pond life. Trespassing, theiving and generally behaving in extremely anti-social ways of which I have been witness to and tried to intervene many times, one occasion where two men from the local gypsy camp attacked a bunch of schoolkids and the police won't do anythign as it's a waste of time trying to track these people down as they move around so they laugh at the police and do as they wish. Cardiff city council have tried to accomodate them as have other councils across South Wales and the UK. Cardiff city council created several camps and set about making sure these people had clean running water and erected shower blocks and sources of energy. These shower blocks had the copper ripped from the walls and sold off as were the cables installed there. Half a mile away from one of these camps was beseiged by these people. It used to be a place I passed and thought of as a nice green tranquil spot where a multitude of plants grew. After they left it resembled a council tip and took days to clear...all on the tax payers expense of course. The area was blocked up but after moving from their next make shift camp they returned and removed the barricades and set up camp. Once again they moved and once again they destroyed a beautiful piece of land which again took days to clear and even now bear's the scar's of their site. I work for a contracting company and over the weekend visited a site in Neath where we had some electricians working. They'd already had tools and a generator stolen from gypsies from the local makeshift camp...tools stolen from hard working men who had bought those tools to work and earn and honest pay. The vultures returned yesterday and despite requests for a police driveby to perhaps deter them the police ignored us and the contracting firm had to make sure somebody was in the compound at all times despite the fencing being padlocked. The cost of this man I do not know but a cost that normally is not incurred apart from when the pond life set up camp locally as happens everywhere. Year upon year I've been witness to this plague so I make no apology for my view and do not hide it as I've yet to meet an honest gypsy.
But again this is going off track, the undeniable fact is that if Barras or Feron had not forced entry to trespass on Martin's property then Barras would be alive. Gun license or not Martin would have had nobody to shoot at or warn if they had not trespassed. This is not about making Tony Martin a martyr it's calling for the same justice system that releases rapists, drug pushers, peodophiles etc etc to re-offend to show some kind of parity in their decisions.
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Texas deputy to local home owner that shot burgler as he ran out of his house:
"lets drag em into the house and make this legal....."