Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vulcan on July 24, 2000, 08:02:00 PM
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Hey Obear... nice post, I didn't want to be down the bottom of a bunch of big long replies.
While I disagree with Obear on gameplay (I like AH over WB), I this guy has a great point.
What we really need in AH is an easy mode that doesn't blow the FM, IE things like co-ordinated roll/rudder, stopping the pilot pulling short of stall limits (ie within 15%), soft landings, auto-pullup in compression situations, things like that. As oppposed to tweaking their FM, bigger bullets etc.
This would give a new pilot a softer transition into AH. Yet more experienced pilots could still fly closer to the edge. Of the course the hard-mode guys would blow the easy-mode guys away, so there is motivation there for the easy guys to learn.
I'd like to see more people in AH, and I think HTC needs to address this. Theres already things like auto-take-off, so we're getting there.
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barf
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I like the idea of setting up a training area for new comers so they don't get so overwhelmed at the start but there's many things that concern me. Being that I started off in hard mode(well, CK v.91 from AOE/AOTP was a pretty big transition), I may be a bit skeptical of an easy flight mode.
My concerns are:
Where and when would it stop? Would there be two seperate arenas? Would the easy flight mode arena have any restrictions set? Like after he gets to a set limit he can no longer access the easy flight mode arena? Obviously an easy flight arena brings more faces, but many I'm willing to bet I will never see except for postings on the BBS. They'll spend their time in the easy mode arena. I'm not sure how that benefits any of us in the "realistic flight mode" of the current MA. It takes away bandwidth initially until more customers come in to pay HTC and eventually it would improve. Then HTC has to divide their already limited resources to make a new arena, manage it and create two seperate flight models. I think Pyro, or HiTech, said that easy mode was inevitable. WB lived quite well for a long time before it got fighter ops.
If someone learns the easy mode and gets good in it, then they come into the realistic arena and get their butt handed to them repeatedly because of small differences, well they're going to go back to the easy arena to regain their self-esteem.
I'm not trying to come off sounding like "oh well if you aren't good enough for a 'realistic' flight model, then don't come waste our bandwidth". Just expressing my opinion on the matter. I would much rather new people come to this game in the current setup, learn the difficulty of the FM through trial and error(or hook up with a trainer or someone willing to help them out, if you just ask there are a lot of people that will help!!!) and then get good at the game so we can all have a little more competition and players.
Just my 30$/mo speaking though. :-)
-SW
AKSeaWulfe
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If your-a-goin-to enable easy flight in AH then MAKE SURE IT IS DUMBED DOWN!!
In WB it was introduced with advantages can you believe and nearly half the 'vets' there in the Top 100 lists were in easy mode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Not surprisingly quite a few of them had troubles when they moved to AH.
Just make sure there is a speed DISadvantage [there was an advantage in max safe dive speed in WB] and give *some* penalty for having the nose not dropping in an E fight.
....or do what WB did and treat them as two totally separate games that just happen to share code and never the twain shall they meet again.
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give it an arena np (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hehe ... I'll second Citabria's motion, and add a few barfs of my own (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I don't see the point of having an easy mode, mixing it with a high fidelity mode in the current arenas in AH.
I understand that the proposition is to provide for a transitional vehicle, but what I'm saying is that the argument for the very existence of a transitional model as proposed, will not meet the target, which is to allow AH to become more accessible, and ultimately encourage more people to join the ranks of the hardcore simmer.
Why? Because if a person isn't prepared to learn the ropes using the tools at hand, i.e current complex model, chances are they do not have the degree of interest in a high fidelity WWII acm simulation such as AH.
Such a person would most likely avoid the MA and the SEA, as their skills would remain stunted courtesy of a toolset which doesn't allow for the making of, and learning from mistakes.
Remember that a human-being can only claim knowledge after directly experiencing that obstacle which challenges them.
This leaves the second option, which is to have a low-fidelity arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
With the level of egotism and the apparent desire of most flight simmers to regard 'their' simulation as the most accurate portrayal of real life, I don't believe that a 'dumbed-down' arena has the magnetic appeal to lure anyone.
It is my belief that people who might venture into a 'dumbed down' arena would ultimately feel intimidated and belittled, because there would always exist a tacit community perception that their arena is second rate. The 'real' arena, to which they might aspire, is 'first-rate' for flyers who've made the grade.
Can anyone honestly tell me that they wouldn't feel embarrassed if it were known that they were flying a 'dumbed-down' arena?
I'd rather be a dweeb in an arena populated by dedicated, than to be king of the simple flyers. And If I suspected that there existed a simulation which had a higher degree of fidelity, I would fly it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), but there isn't and for now AH rules.
Hehe ... that makes me an opportunist (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cheers
Yosus.
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'One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you'll need to wear brown corduroy'
Phoenix Squadron.
[This message has been edited by Yosus (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Total agreement Torque. If there is like a easy mode, seperate arena's plezzzz. Not to crazy about the auto takeoff thingy as is.
Don't mind getten killed by guys who fly the hard FM, wont take it by a bunch of newbies and total quakers, IMHO!
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Spike45
THUNDER BIRDS
Double Trouble (B17)
Vixen (B26)
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A thought. A separate arena with easy mode settings (whatever HTC determines settings to be). Newbies are defaulted to that arena & cannot go to any other arena (locked out thru system)until a trainer signs off on em. Newbies would have to be made aware of this.
Left out a whole lot of detail, but maybe an idea we can throw around?
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Originally posted by Apache:
A thought. A separate arena with easy mode settings (whatever HTC determines settings to be). Newbies are defaulted to that arena & cannot go to any other arena (locked out thru system)until a trainer signs off on em. Newbies would have to be made aware of this.
A pilot with 10 years of AW/WB experience has to go through a trainer? This kind of a system would quickly repel a LOT of new customers.
IMHO, easy mode could be introduced, but it should be dumbed down heavily. A separate relaxed arena is not needed.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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AW treats Full Realism and Relaxed Realism as two seperate games. The majority of players are in the Relaxed Realism Arena's do to the low learning curve that it requires. When I started AW, way back in the DOS days on Genie, relaxed realism was called Half time arena since it operated at a slower speed then normal ( was like flying in molases) and even then it had more players
then the faster realism arena. IMHO, if HTC wants more paying players then they will need a lower realism arena that will appeal to the masses of non-hardcore players. No flames please, it's just basic economics.
Vati
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Nooooooo....if you do this it will create 2 different types of pilots and eventualy there will be a call for an "easy mode" arena thus splitting the community which IMO is the worst thing that can happen to AH.
MrLars
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No camo, like I said, I left alot of details out. An AW/WB player with experience is NOT a newbie.
Like I said, left alot of details out. Thought this would spark discussion, not lead off with a question about what I didn't say.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Its a slippery slope. Economics favor easy. Once its introduced turn out the lights gracy, this party is over. It will utterly divide the community. If HTC whats fast cash then yes go easy all the way. If that was the case they why bother making it hard at all.
I say stick to your guns and let the guys learn. Dont give um options. Build it and they will come.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Hmmm. Ya swayed me Dnil. No easy mode.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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And so it begins...
Keep EZ and Real modes separate guys. You'll be very sorry if you don't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
If they go beyond allowing auto-takeoff or auto-landing (and MAYBE auto-spin-recovery) they'll be repeating one of their BIGGEST mistakes ever. They won't admit it was a mistake to this day, but they left before the time bomb went off.
You've all CHOSEN to fly the toughest FM available. How many of you would CHOOSE to allow guys to shoot YOU down, show up ABOVE you on score lists, have HIGHER K/D's than you, and APPEAR to be "better" pilots, while AVOIDING the actual physics of flight???
It all seems fine and fair when you're talking about NEWBIES. But a year down the road, you'll be talking about VETS gaming the game. And THEN you won't like it at all, but it'll be too late, because it will be a "business decision" not open to discussion any more.
You need to kill this cancer now, while you can. Make a separate EZ arena, everyone knows the rules, everyone picks their own poison, and everyone's happy.
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By no means do you mix easy and hard FM's in one arena!! But if HTC wants more players then an easy mode arena should be something thy should look into. Also, call it EASY MODE, not something like Relaxed realism that might lead people to think it's something almost like realism. Let them know they are not flying anything near realism (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) just my opinion.
Vati
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I think an easy/relaxed mode with mandatory graduation could work. No mixed modes in the same arena please! And don't split the community in two as AW and WB"s has. Have a pilot work to an automatic graduation into the regular areans when thier K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) or over all points reach a threshold. And do not allow 'graduates' access back to the hatchery (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Westy
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This is a dilemma that both AW and WB tried to solve. Each game went in a seperate direction. I think both failed.
My experience is with AW so I feel strongly that AH should try to avoid the massive community fragmentation AW is now saddled with.
But I understand the frustrations and equally nasty problems Warbirds experienced mixing the two. I like Westy's proposal of using a graduation system, where after a certain limit the player is no longer allowed access to "easy mode".
I differ in that I think AH could survive having this brand of easymode mixed in with regular players. I think it could work if:
1. Easymode is -well- within the flight envelope of the regular A/C.
2. Easy mode closes to a player after his 3rd tour no matter what.
3. Easy mode closes regardless of the tour if certain statistical numbers are reached, ie X number of kills, K/D, points.
4. Icons identify easy mode players in flight.
I feel that keeping newbies in the regular arenas is the proper thing to do because the positive socialization aspects of this community outweight the negative effect of bending the flight model for those of lesser ability. If a seperate arena is created, a new culture is created, and 10 years from now you'll have 2 communities that hardly know each other.
I am not advocating the creation of an easymode. But this is how I think it could work without doing serious harm.
If HTC instead chooses to fill a niche that caters to serious sim players I see this as a reasonable, (and more desirable) option.
-Hornet
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IF separate arenas aren't the answer then what hornet said above is a very good way to handle it. Well thought out hornet.
Just make sure that his point 1 and the words '-well- within' mean that the envelope is way way way inside the current.
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If an easy mode were ever to be implemented, I think that Hornet's solution would work.
Especially the identification with a different icon.
Ya, well thought out Hornet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Cheers
Yosus
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'One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you'll need to wear brown corduroy'
Phoenix Squadron.
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After reading the trim trim trim thread in the training section. Im not sure all this FR v EZ mode stuff isnt just a lot of mental masterbation.
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OK...if it is implemented call it what it is...ARCADE...keep the vets outa the arena and limit the time/kills you can get there before graduating to the Realistic Physics Arena.
MrLars