Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on October 05, 2001, 08:29:00 AM
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262 is not a good fighter vs fighter plane, too fast, too short-ranged weapons. But it should be a perfect buff interceptor. The problem is that being killed by a B17 is too easy and most of the people wont risk it in the anti-buff role. The conclusion is that we have a plane really difficult to kill and really difficult to score kills. IMO, the ENY value of "1" and the cost of 200 perks makes this plane unuseful for its main supposed role.
IMO, what we should have is something that rewards kills in those planes where killing is extremelly difficult. For example, killing
a spit in a 262 should give me a lot of perks, being killed by a Spit should cost me a lot of perks. The actual system of giving/loosing perks depending only on the cost of the planes is not enough. Skill needed should be also a factor. And, as far as I've seen, killing a fighter in a 262 is 100 times harder than killing in a Spit.
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I'm a Pony Pilot exclusively...for grins the 13th TAS upped in 262's last night and I popped 5 Bandits.
I'm an average sim pilot...I don't think the 262 is as anemic as you propose.
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I agree Rude.
I had many kills in it last night...even in 'lone wolf' sorties.
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Same here. I'm a mediocre pilot, and even I was untouchable as a jet dweeb last night. Just keep your energy up, and nothing can touch you-- except another jet dweeb, of course. ;)
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Rude, perhaps your kills where just other Me262. If that is the case, well, obviously the 262 is the best 262 killer, now try a 1 vs 1 against a SpitIX. Personally, I cant imagine a way to kill the Spit, unless unawared or a very green pilot driving the spit.
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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Heck, I was flying around in a Me-262 last night using a CH Yoke only and I was able to get a few good sorties in.
262 is a rocket death sled - it's more lethal than a P-51D, 150+MPH faster, and it has a cruise speed on the deck at ~500MPH.
I had guys in 262's come out of no-where and pick my bones clean with B&Z tactics when I was in prop powered planes.
200 perkies is fine with me.
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Vruth
13th TAS
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Wow, what a ride.
I don't know who the Rook was that did this, but he'd scream over our runway (A1) wide open, strafe the runway and nailed about 7 of us dweebs trying to roll our 262s into the air :) He did it a lot, and it was amazing how fast/low he came in at.
I'm an OK fighter pilot and I flew the 262 and went out to find trains/convoys with Drill. Found some near 25/24 and had some F4u-4's and Mossies intercept us. Again, Im no pro but the Mossies are eay kills in that thing, and F4's are just a matter of staying fast. I scored several kills in the 262 last night, even with a damaged engine. Actually what killed me was running out of gas and landing...suddenly a 2-D palm tree thingie appeared in front of me and I was dead.
262 could be quite the spy plane, full fuel, some alt, wide open and go patrol. Low ammo count isn't ideal for dogfighting but should be interesting for popping buffs.
And no...there was *no phucking way* I was upping my Lancaster last night :)
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Only one was a 262 kill.
Now if you're saying 1v1, co-alt engagement, similar E, Spit v 262, then you have an uncanny way of overstating the obvious :)
The 262 is not a turnfighter, but flown well can kill most anything in the arena. I would wager you that if I had an initial alt advantage, that more than not, I could kill Spits 1v1 all day...unless I made a bonehead mistake which I'm more than capable of.
Trust me, I've flown these sims along time...it's not the plane, but rather the pilot that makes the difference. I've know some guys that are almost unstoppable...here in AH, Nath comes to mind...in WB's, DF in a 190 was extremely tough, etc.
You wait long enough, and you will see someone here that chooses to kill in the 262 and will be very dangerous in it...then just check in here to see the whinin begin :)
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The 262 ruined the opening of 1.08..
It was new and it was free. people were not good in it yet and they were as careless (free plane) as they could ever be and still it ruined the game.
lepaul get's it in this case. When the "timid" learn how to really fly the thing it will be a pain in the butt for everyone else... It will do nothing but vultch runways making the game nothing but a sophisticated dodgeball for the rest of us.
It was WB jet day all over again. Ruined the release and would ruin the game if it were cheap.
I hate the idiotic perk system but if all the real fast planes are very expensive... it works in one respect... we won't see em and the arena will be that much fairer.
I don't want to fly the thing and I don't want to fly against it n the MA. A "jet" day (one wasted day per tour) is far better than a cheap 262. A 1,000 point 262 is even better tho and would prove the idiotic perk system "works" so far as I'm concerned.
lazs
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:rolleyes:
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I agree...
It should be 400 perk points.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I agree...
It should be 400 perk points.
-SW
Not until I try at least one of them :D
Cheers,
Pepe
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From what I saw of the 262 last night laz has a point. This thing has increadable evasivs using roll. At 350 it rolls like a 190. The guns have tones of ammo. If you are used to thier balistics. It comes in from dot range to shoot range in seconds.
I think it might have to be more perk points for this thing. And maybe a system where killing buffs in it gives you way higher eny values then fighters. I was trying to get a feeling for the robustness of it and except for vs ack it seemed fine.
I honestly dread the guy that first gets Hblair or Zig or Nath shooting those 30mm at them. Guys that allready have a dead eye for the 108 tater gun...ouch
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well gee guys... brand new release that has been much anticipated... new planes, new "strat" new elements... big release and...
silence.. board is devoid of comments... no talk of the new features and elements... no one even bothered to try em...
Everyone took up 262's and mossies and -4 and tempests and spent the night hiding from each other. Was one of the least fun nights for me. coulda been a blast.
No fights anywhere... had about two melees (furballs) that involved more than 3 planes all night. Towards the end the 262 sissies were learning how to vultch runways and not get killed. Two more days of this and it will be nothing but dodgeball.
No one can say there was an even average amount of action in the arena and that was with people just learning and not caring about "cost".
The idiotic perk system is proved by 1.08 to either be the greatest success or the greatest failure....
If the planes are very expensive then they will be rare or never seen and that will make the arena more fair and action packed therefore making the perk system a ..... "success"???
If the perk planes are cheap then they will be common and the arena will be faster (speed wise) with less action and no parity, making the perk system a.... failure?
One way or the other... a few fast uber planes can ruin a game (no parity and no action) for all the other planes and even for all the other elements of the game.
far better to simply have a few days at the end of the tour wasted by having a "jet day or two"... it would of course be as boring, actually even more so with familiarity, as last night but at least we could have some fun on the other nights... Course those who have no tolerance for action and fun will claim that the "free perk" nights are action packed thrill-o-ramas but the evidence shows otherwise.
lazs
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well i disagree laz i thought last night was a blast. i sont think anyone really carred if they lived or died. i thought a free perk night is a great way to let everyone try what this new version has to offer.
yes i think it would get very boring if the perk system was not there.
but i am even more glad that we have a perk system.
btw i only have around 200 fighter perks so i wont get a chance to take up the 262 anymore. nor will i. it cost to much for someone like me.
Fenrir
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Trell ]
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Latz why don't you just quit playing AH ?
Obviously you don't like how things are running here so quit playing and find new game to play.
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The fields in which i was playing there was action non stop. I saw a LOT of Mosquitos but overall fun.. 10 mins before i crashed i saw a 262 once in a while..which is too much
the perk for 262 should be much higher otherwise i can see it ruining the game
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The real jem in 1.08 is the Mossie :D :D :eek:
What a great ride this will be...reminds me of the vader in AW. 1st real "attack" plane in the game. there will be some awesome squad missions for sure...6 guys in mossies can do an aweful lot of damage.
As for the 262...biggest fear will be a disco. I got 1 F6F 1-2 262's and a mossie (I think)....died trying to ytake off from short fields 3-4 times...got bounced 3-4 times T&Bing it low chasing prop planes round.
Truthfully it handles like a dream and is can actually E fight pretty well in semi vertical...but its hard to slow it down enough to get a decent setup without really risking getting caught...the spool up time is little long when your 250 or so with a tempest screaming in on you.
I can see someone going whole tour without losing one...i've never lost a tempest. But why bother...to me takes fun out of the game...but then again i've been T&Bing a hog last couple weeks so I dont fly anything way there designed anyway :)....Chog is still only perk plane worth the points.
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This new release felt quite a bit like every other new release on opening day. Lots of warps and everyone trying out the new rides.
Im always amazed at how quickly everyone (myself included) tend to overreact way too soon about every hiccup on opening day.
It takes weeks for the community at large to judge accurately the full magnitude of even moderate updates in AH.
That being said:
The 262 is way too perk cheap. Im confident that that some LW squads will organze talented staffels flying these things exculsively and simply be untouchable, scoring 7-12 kills avg and landing 90% of the time.
This could make the game rather contemptuous
for fans of prop driven rides that will end up spending 10% of their time dying to unseen jetfire and the other 90% of their time looking constantly behind and evading the me262s.
If the price were nearly, and I mean NEARLY, prohibitive, say 400-500 perks, the impact of the 262 in the MA will be largely subdued but still available.
Of course, time will tell.
Y
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It was a blast flying yesterday. At one point I had over 12 guys chasing me. That was really fun. This new release was great (WTG HT). We tried out new planes and we learned that we MUST have perkie system. I’m no more niki dweeb, I’m a jet dweeb :). Now its time to get 33 more perkies to fly it again .
IMO :)
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Gawsh, Laz agrees with me on something. Mark your calendars, it dont happen often :D
Upon further reflection, last night reminded me of last week, when the Main Arena went down and everyone stormed into the Training Room and did perk rides (with amazing amounts of ammo, to boot). You either laughed to yourself in glee, or cried in disgust.
I was impressed flying the 262...its fast, looks like something out of a Batman comic book, and just flies great.
What kinda annoyed me was there was no strat whatsoever last night. I was very interested to see how the convoys, trains and re-supply stuff would all work. Perhaps tonight, now that everyone has Jet A out of their system :)
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Hmm I had a blast last night meself with the exception of the bastids capping fields and causing arena resets +(
Ohh yeah and my only up in a 262 ended in a hard lock while using my right view.
Anyways, a constant furball between a1 and a43, which I took advantage of +) My first trip in a 205 from a2 to a43 resulted in 2 262's down and 16 perks! +) My next trip resulted in 1 262 and another kill for 10 perks. Then I got brave, fired up the 202 and charged on in. My first trip resulted in no 262 kills +( Someone died though giving me a couple of perks. Next run 1 262 downed!! would have been a second if the bb's were a tad more effective, 3-4 sec burst scoring hits resulted in a slight trail behind him. Scored at least a D11 and an F4u who augered and I think another aircraft as well. I think when I died I had 4-5 kills even though I only shot one down as far as I know. 20 perks +)
Getting caught in open sky with some alt by a couple of 262's I found abit boring. One would Boom other would zoom and so on. They eventually make a mistake and have to dump some alt for speed and then extend 10k before returning.
Personally I think last night was fine, and a good time. I am surprised it spoiled Lazs's fun. It was what I thought he always wanted.. no buffs were up, the perk system was abolished and no captures were possible..
My thots...
SKurj
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I should probably put this where it won't be buried, but:
The 262 A2G perk value is seriously messed up. I took up a 262 got 3 A2A kills (but only two got scored for points -- the third was a 262 who pulled his wings off after I forced the overshoot): one was a bounce on a IIc where I came in so fast he never saw me; the other was suckering a 190 into a dubious front-quarter shot. Nevertheless when I landed, I got 25 perk points.
Why?
I strafed 3 1/2 truck convoys. You get a good line up on 'em and give 'em a little squirt of 4x30mm, and poof! they blow. And the 262 A2G multiplier is 20.
Seriously, this is a problem guys.
Anyway, I'm worried that whatever the Perk value is, the 262 will be too common in the MA. Folks who know how to fly it won't let themselves be killed. And given enough practice, people will figure out the optimal ballistics for the mk108. After all, you only need one of them to hit a fighter.
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not realy before the arena reset when 262 was not FREE fly the plane ,tryed bounce many planes but flying the thing around 450 tas and above now way to score, <flying a262 below 450 tas is it sily !!> have to realy concentrate my selfgout many time p 38 or pony runing after me thye was not scared at all Ho but no hits , it was inaf warpy yesterday for smoth aiming
Surely Lw fans will fly the 262 and the 20 k perfect loop pony bouncers <example :RUDE ;) > will have to watch out about 262 just like in real life , 200 perks damn is it inaf high
already lost more like 500 perks dieing in Ta152 left around 800 so is it 4 x 262 for me
is it so much ?????????????? AND I COLECT MY PERKS IN 190A8 109F4 109G 10 190D9 ONLY
anyway mising wr 21 rocket for 262 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thx HTC for the nice plane !!!!!!
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Actually I dont fly LW metal much (except for Arados and sometimes Ju88s) but still Im considering taking the 262 for a buff-hunt. If you know how to attack the buff the buff is dead. If you just sit on his 6 then YOU are dead. I see nothing wrong about 262 ENY or PERK values its OK with me because right now Im killing buffs with Yak-9U and its not a problem to kill 2 B17s per 1 sortie without scoring a single hole in my own plane and still bringing few (well very few) rounds home :D Leave 262 as it is now and lets see how the situation will develop.... (just my humble opinion)
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MBirdCZ
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Sooner of later all perkies run dry...
:D
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This is really comic. You guys think that 262 should cost even more perks due it is the fastest plane in the arena.
1 - To kill, you usually need to slow down.
2 - It is ONLY good at very hi speeds.
3 - Mk108 effective range is very short.
4 - Its climb rate is anything but impressive.
Well, before the 262 arrival we had already a fastest and untouchable plane: La7. And IT WAS AND IS UNPERKED, not even a cheap perk, just UNPERKED.
Most if not all of you chanting about doubling the alreally extremelly expensive price of 262 never wrote a world about perking the La.
For a quick comparison, before 262 and at the optimal altitude:
1 - La7 outaccelerates anything.
2 - La7 outruns anything.
3 - La7 outclibms anything.
4 - La7 outdives anything.
5 - La7 outturns most of the planes.
Now, with the 262:
1 - 262 outdives anything.
2 - 262 outruns anything.
What about a bit of coherence? 400 perks for 262? ok, 250 perks for La7 and 300 for Tempest.
IMO, top speed is not the most important factor to perk a plane.
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Lazs, your beloved F4U-4, 1C and 1D are not precissely slow-arena planes. Again, a bit of coherence.
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I like Mandoble's idea. Warbirds had kills weighted that way, didn't they? You would get a higher score killing a more effective plane. That way, maybe we could get some early-war crates, with a good chance that they would be flown. Everybody's happy!
I think we should just give the Me262 a break-in period, keeping it at 200 perkies. It might turn out ok at that price point
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Gunthr ]
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Get grip Mandoble, the 262 should be at LEAST 200 perks. And in no way should it be able to earn perks at any sort of a rate. If you die in a 262 before you've earned even 10% of its cost you deserved it.
The 262 has no natural predator in the arena. There are always furballs waiting for an LW opportunist.
Buzz a furball in any plane at 350 mph there is a chance that you didn't see that guy with more E than you. Buzz a furball at 550 the risks are so slim as to be nil (unless u run into something) :rolleyes:
Just imagine if you could earn 10 perks for every spit killed while in a 262, which only cost you 50 perks..... Wouldn't be long before we'd be flying F4 phantoms vs mig 21's....
SKurj
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Relax! Even if (and that's one giant IF) the 262 comes down in perk price, it will be because it is NOT the uber plane you think it is. Pyro has this perk system figured out, which is more then I can say for the most of you, so just relax! :D
The number one killer in AH's skies is mindset. If, you put yourself in the mindset of: "Oh, NO! A 262 is gonna kill me!" He will kill you. Fly smart, use your plane to it's best advantage, and get kills.
:cool:
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S! Lazs
I had to laugh at your post.
Read it twice and it sounds like an argument for a Historical Arena. ;)
I guess it depends on whose got the uber plane...
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voss... I'm not worried about the 262 killing me or anyone else. I just think that it spoils the game. It makes us play dodgeball all the time and it is flat annoying.. When guys learn that they can straffe runways in it they will be even more annying. they break up fights and have no benifiecial effect on gameplay whatsoever unless you consider being able to kill buffs easily a benifiet.
lazs
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I think what is spoiling the game, right now, is the little towns containing the map room. If these little towns getting captured means the field is forfeited, then I want to see angry farmers wielding pitch forks headed for the field, so I can strafe them.
Vultching aircraft of any description do not worry me.
:cool:
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So let gain at an 262 pilot, 50 perk point just for a b17 kill. ;)
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yeah Voss, I think maybe the town being captured should'nt affect the airfield at all, could simply mean that anything destroyed on the field doesn't rebuild until the town is recaptured or if that would'nt work, then we need gv spawn points in the town for defense. With the new dar settings, its gonna be too easy to lose fields.
errr this thread was about 262's thou, I like em, 200 perkies seems pretty prohibitive as it is. You worried that guys gonna learn how to fly them and be unbeatable. Well is'nt the Tempest like that, there are people in the MA who can up a Temp and are unbeatable. Live with it, I have to.
:D
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Jets should belong to another arena. Or to late 1944-45 Historical Scenarios. I remember how silly was the jet day in Warbirds.
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Just played couple hours and didn't see anyone flying Me-262 ?
Guess 200points is enough to keep it rare.
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Well, not to worry ladies, 1/2 of JG54 Gruenherz already lost most of it's perk point last night by :
Disco
Wings rippin'
Disco
Compressing into Ground
Disco
Collision
Disco
So, now, we're back to flying me109f4 again :D
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buzz.. No.. An "historical" arena would be limitied to very few plane choices because of the silly axis vs allied thing. An "area" arena with early, mid and late "area's" would be a lot better or... even a very modified RPS where there were 2+ days of early war, a big chunk of days for mid war and a small chunk for late war. All adjusted to popularity (money making).
I like "area" best... infinite and easy choice but I know HTC still believes that the best is a bunch of seperate arenas when the numbers come up.... It's been years and I've never seen the numbers work out for seperate arenas except for some "easymode" experiments in WB.
Problem with what we got is it is becoming a "whatever is uber" arena all the time. In this case it is the fastest and late war planes. As more late war planes are added there is even less chance for variety and early war planes to be VIABLE (yeah, I know.. you regularly kill twenty P51's per sortie with your zeke but)...
Now we've got 262's... they are hopless in anything but a sneak up and run away style... Keep us on our toes? Sounds ok but in reality they just spoil whatever area they are in. The only cure with the present system is to make em prohibitively expensive so that no one flys em or... that they are annoying on rare occassions. Also... it's hard to get good in something you don't fly much.
My point being that...The way the arena is set up... they don't even belong in the game. either fix the arena or get rid of em... HTC has chosen to get rid of em by making em 200 perk points. I think that may be a little cheap.
Now... was someone telling me that my -1 Hog is uber in the arena? LOL... in a mid/late war setting it is a perfect fit. faster than a lot but poor climb and acceleration and relatively weak guns..but.... able to turn well enough that you have the option of actually fighting down in the mud with everyone else... A lot of the planes fit in this way, good at some things but not at others but overall very close... They would fit nicely in a mid war RPS chunk or mid war "area". Perhaps lag7, P51D, D9 Tempest etc. would fit into the late war RPS or "area".
Early war needs new planes.... then it would be a blast but it has to be isolated from the uber rides.
lazs
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NEWS FLASH!!!!!
ACES HIGH MAIN ARENA (AP) This just in off the news wire: The sky is falling!!!!!!
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Love the 262, but won't be flying it much. My first mission in 1.08 was in a 262 after about 5 minutes of offline flying of it. I got 5 kills as a lone wolf, including a b-17, a 262, a mossie, and a couple of something else. It's a killer plane if you keep it fast and are ready to disengage if you loose your advantage. The shotgun 30mm cannons help too! :) On the bright side, It's easy to evade if you're awake in any fighter.
CJ
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You obviously don't know how to fly a 262, or at least didn't when you posted.
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
262 is not a good fighter vs fighter plane, too fast, too short-ranged weapons. But it should be a perfect buff interceptor. The problem is that being killed by a B17 is too easy and most of the people wont risk it in the anti-buff role. The conclusion is that we have a plane really difficult to kill and really difficult to score kills. IMO, the ENY value of "1" and the cost of 200 perks makes this plane unuseful for its main supposed role.
IMO, what we should have is something that rewards kills in those planes where killing is extremelly difficult. For example, killing
a spit in a 262 should give me a lot of perks, being killed by a Spit should cost me a lot of perks. The actual system of giving/loosing perks depending only on the cost of the planes is not enough. Skill needed should be also a factor. And, as far as I've seen, killing a fighter in a 262 is 100 times harder than killing in a Spit.