Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: muckmaw on January 26, 2003, 08:59:33 AM
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I'm about ready to turn in my Bomber wings after last night.
Here's the scene. FBGrumbl sets up a beautiful B-17 raid, that would span half the map, from the Knight base to the Bish HQ. We get 13 Bomber flights up, along with 10 escorts, and make our run. MrS sets us up in WWII Box formation. BGBMAW leads us to the target. 1 Sector out, we are swarmed with every 163 ever made x10! Out of 36 B-17's, 2 dropped their ordinance, while under heavy fire. We dropped from 24-28K. Not a single bomber survived, and none hit the target.
So now here's my peeve. How many 163's were built in WWII? For god's sake, you want Bombers to go after Strategic targets, and not airfields. Fine. Then you throw in a plane that the escorts can't catch, and really did not participate much at all in WWII.
So whats the bombers role? None. They have been effectively eliminated from AH. I mean, let's finish it, and just take them off the clipboard. (Yes, I know, whine...over the top...can't help it..frustrated.)
Now, I don't mind losing the mission. But I would prefer it be more historically accurate. We don't need that many 163's in the game.
Case in point. Later last night, Rooks up a 17 mission, almost the same as ours, going after OUR HQ. One of the MAW spotted the mission well south of the HQ. Now, we did not up 163's. We took FW-190 A8's. We climbed, intercepted, and knocked down every single bomber.
Like I said, I don't mind losing, missing, getting shot down, etc. I just would prefer to be shot down by a plane that actually served in numbers in WWII.
Snapshots to follow. Sorry for the whine, but I had to vent.
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Bombers before forming up
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First time so many responded to the threat. For that matter radar is far better here than WWII. Quit your whining and accept that for a change bishops finally got organized to defeat a threat, especially when they heard it was a maw attack. (actually afterwords you corrected us that it was an FB mission that all maws were encouraged to join) Thumbs up to the 163! It takes skill to fly and not compress, it carries so little ammo, only the best can kill more than 1.
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For such a mission to be a success, you need a few things:
[list=1]
- Pork the fuel at the ME-163 bases, they dont get far at 25-50% fuel.
- Fly at 25k+
- Get some good gunners, an ME-163 can shoot down a bomber in one pass, but in a good box formation, thats all he should get.[
- Come from at least two directions
[/list=1]
Such a raid on an enemy heartland SHOULD be decimated. After all, if it was easy we'd never have dar.
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A bit more delicate planning might have solved the problem.
For instance, accompanying escorts might arm themselves with light loads such as rockets, or, the formation itself could be accompanied by light/medium bombers which would attack the 163 field fuel tanks about 10 minutes prior to the arrival of the main buff stream into bomb-run range.
But of course, even with some talented pilots, the fuel porking mission will result in high casualties... but if someone wants to pork a HQ, hey, it's a risk worth taking.
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This is one MAW that refused to participate in that foolish HQ raid, which was nothing more than a drain on resources (bish easily grabbed two knit bases while 20% of our fighting power waisted time in that run), and I encouraged other MAW not to participate. The result was a perfect example of why an HQ raid should not be loaded into the mission planner. They rarely succeed. And it would not matter if the 163s were taken out of the equation. The Rooks pulled a similar dweeby HQ run an hour or so later and the MAW countered with 15-20 D9s and 109s (no 163s) and decimated the Rook mission. None of the 25k bombers & scorts made it to target. NONE And while those Rook resources were tied up, knits grabbed a couple of Rook bases. They are not worth the time.
Rod and Kev of the 357 demonstrated the right way to take out dar...use just one box of 17s with a very good gunner on board. Hit the cities and then HQ. A single box of 17s is not going to draw enough attention to get enough interceptors attacking the raider. Then a good gunner can pick off the single interceptors one-by-one.
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We tried to get in with some Jabo to take out the ME-163 fuel, but apparently, they did not make it.
As for Crow's opinion, I agree that it draws resources away from Knights, but look at it this way. There were 13 Bomber pilots and 10 escorts. No gunners. We're taling 23 pilots out of 160+ that were on Knights at the time.
Also, we took away from Bish resources, as their top squad, the AK's dropped what they were doing to intercept us.
Finally, though not strategically sound in your mind, a mission like this is a change of pace that some folks need. I certainly do. And it's not only fun for the guys flying the mission. It's also provided a nice intercept mission for the enemy.
Like I said originally, though, it would have been easier to swallow if we were intercepted by 15 190's instead of 163's.
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I also saw the mission and joined. Then i saw the route and thought it was a complete waste of time and withdrew.
The whole thing was intercepted due to the fact everyone saw a huge red blob coming and had time to launch 163s.I was willing to attack the 163 base with a NOE jabo raid from a26 (within 50 odd miles)to knock out the Komets fuel but due to the fact the mission route meant waiting an absolute age I didnt have the patience to wait the hours it would take the b17s to trace those waypoints.In the end by the time they arrived near the HQ I'd forgoten all about it.
If people want to hit the HQ they need to coordinate a strike on the 163 base.Either that or just take a single formation like ive seen many people do and put it out of action with minimal resistance.
To be honest the only time i like to be in very large formations of B17s is actually when they ARE attacked by defenders.I kind of envy the chance to shoot at ten 163s myself :)
I do understand your dislike of unrealistic war situations but like ive been told before countless times hardly anything about the MA is like the real situations in WW2.
they didnt have 190s fighting 190s or p47s fighting spitfires and lancasters didnt divebomb carriers.Its all a bit gamey in MA and to expect anything otherwise is being unrealistic in your expectations.
If you really want a realistic engagement (in terms of real matchups) then take the time to fly TOD and scenarios.The LW are almost always short of pilots for their bombers in scenarios whenever i join in. Perhaps you had best help us out? :D
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Sort of funny when you remember every fluff driver telling the furballers to protect their fields if they didn't like the way fluffers played the game. :)
bowser
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I think they should put more perks on the 163. Good luck getting to that base,to pork the fuel in a jug or lighting your gonna have a 163 on your six that can out turn out accel and out climb you. Also when pushing a country lines back close to HQ then thats all you see is them buzzbombs flying around killing all your jabos.
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I think they should put more perks on the 163.
I agree. The 163 should be perked as much as the 262, if for no other reason than it was more rare. Also, the 163 is a better HQ defender because you can get up to 30K very quickly. Given a choice for HQ defense, most people would probably chose the 163.
ra
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There are so many tactics that could defeat the 163 interceptor threat that it isnt even worth bringing them up.
"So whats the bombers role? None. They have been effectively eliminated from AH. I mean, let's finish it, and just take them off the clipboard. (Yes, I know, whine...over the top...can't help it..frustrated.)
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Only strat target you see is the HQ I guess...hint to MAW. The couties HQ should be hard to take down if there is still not air superiorty established. Think of what those 30 bombers could have accomplished with alt vs the real bish strat targets. 2 boxes per. 2 escorts per.. ANd then a box of 12 to hit the HQ in the confusion.
Or take down the dars on the way to the target so that there is no warning time.
Hit the little dar button on the map. It will show you the dars that you have to drop.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Also, we took away from Bish resources, as their top squad, the AK's dropped what they were doing to intercept us.
When did the AKs get voted the top Bish squad?!?!?
I thought that honor went to Commander Rialbh's guys.
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Hehehe.
Yup, you're right this is a whine.
And like many whines, if you ask me the problem is not with game design, but with how it's being played.
It takes skill to fly bombers, just as it does for fighters. For bombers, a lot goes into planning a mission, setting the waypoints and hitting the target.
I don't think strategic importance should be an issue here. If you want to take a 2-hour flight tot he enemy HQ, I say go for it.
Furballing is easy. You find the nearest contested field, and you take off, over and over again, and if you're good, you get some kills.
Likewise, running bombs is easy. You find the nearest friendly field to an enemy field that's not very contested, you get 20 guys together and you fly at once. Bang. Instant field capture.
Strategic ops requires more work. You want a HQ mission? Great. But flying halfway across the map to come straight in on the target is going to bring 100 Me163s into your formation.
Here's what you need for a deep penetration mission:
high-altitude flight.
a route that waits until the last minute to tip the target. This may mean staying out of dot radar, or it may mean flying directly over enemy bases (making it look like you're hitting a different target). It will probably involve a couple of course changes.
And, as Hazed points out, a deep penetration strike has a much greater chance of success if you have an airfield suppression mission precede it.
Everybody is dying for the opportunity to use those rocket sleds. If you give it to them, they will come.
Another trick is to do Komet "Rodeos". Take a fort form and fly it to the komet base. Orbit with a dedicated gunner. You should be able to get at least three before being shot down.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
We tried to get in with some Jabo to take out the ME-163 fuel, but apparently, they did not make it.
So, why whine about the 163's when it was your countrys Jabo efforts that failed?
IMO, since the field < s > that 163's operate from are close to the HQ, it would be wise to make sure their fuel is porked before commiting your virtual tulips to an attention getting Buff raid.
But, that's just me.
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I think you hit the nail on the head there Pongo. If you could ever get the cooperation of any squadron whether they were large or small to make some low alt strikes on radars along the flight path. Then you would be able to slide right on through the enemy with virtually no interference.
Although I seriously doubt you will ever see that type of cooperation within the MA. Not only because the numbers rotate out so quickly but because of the sheer number of egos that hover around in there as well. No one wants to be a follower; instead the majority want to be a virtual Hap Arnold, Douglas McArthur and Chester Nimitz.
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Some good ideas here. Sounds to me like better planning will go a long way in the future.
I wish I could post the shots I took of the formation (And the 24 Craters AROUND the target) but I can't seem to get them to work.
Anyway, thanks for the pointers.
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I for one love flying the Komet to intercept HQ raids. They have little chance of getting through nowdays if you can up a number of people in those nasty little rockets.
But as much fun as they are to fly, I would have to agree that something needs to be done to limit the number either by perk cost or max number of Komets available. With Komets as available as they are HQ raids are generally useless.
Sure there are tactics to try and keep them on the ground, but that just tips the country off. If I see that someone just porked the Komet's field then it's a pretty sure indicator that a raid is coming. A preliminary raid to pork fuel normally would have to come at least 10 minutes ahead of time to catch the Komets before they took off. This just gives the country enough advance notice to get prop fighters up to alt. Or it gives them enough time to resupply the fuel.
I love the Komet, but it wouldn't bother me at all to see the number of Komets available to a country limited to 3 or so. Just my opinion.
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I was in a p51-d that got 2 of those b17s. One thing muck didn't mention was that the entire force of b17s flew directly over a10. The initial battle took place as the b17s arrived over that base. By the time the 163s showed up the mission was already fairly well chewed. A number of the jabos/escorts arrived at a10 after the bombers had already passed over.
The point is that even if you can't take the radar out in advance, you can see exactly where the radar zone is and should attempt to fly around it. Unfortunately because HTC doesn't like anyone to be surprised, you still would have shown up on bar dar.
All that said, I'm with you on turning in the bomber wings. I fly for DHBG and although I like the new bomb site, I hate what they've done to the bomber. I see the 163 as an alternative to endless no talent quake style furballing and it keeps me interested between squad nights. Salute fellow frustrated bombers.
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It could also be something about timing.
I made a pass at Bish HQ, knocked the dot dars down, and returned home safely, yesterday. Ofcourse, the 'return home' had a lot to do with luck, but I made the drop against HQ totally unchallenged, and only on my way home, did I meet opposing enemy fighters.
It was simple. The Rook Operation: "Pied Piper", successfully commenced with the lead of our illustrious Whels, :D at P14 and TG15 area just simply drew vast hoardes of Bish into one spot, and kept them tied up in a mindless suicidal run for hours.
Slipping through a small hole in their radar coverage, and getting within 25 miles of their HQ was a piece of cake.
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Maybe the 'when' part is as iportant as the 'how' part.
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For the record, let me state (and I have the screenshots to prove it), I have shot down 4 Me163s in a single B17 sortie.
I was one of the 163s that attacked the BISH HQ formation. As soon as the B17 raid was spotted, a call went out on channel 2 for 163 pilots. I ditched my F4u and grabbed a 163 from field 10. I believe there were only 4-6 of us.
Gunnery on the part of the B17s was somewhat poor. I made 3 passes on a B17 formation, from the 7:00 and 8:00 position, each time passing within d50 of the bombers. My first two shots missed, but on my 3rd pass I ignited one of the bomber's wing tanks. Perhaps the bombers guns were inoperative, but my attacks were bordering on suicidal
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Here's some other observations though:
yeah, the bar dar is a bit of an annoying tip off (it's so precise at the sector boundaries), but you know what? You can max that sucker out and people still won't scramble. You can pork a field's fuel, and sure, someone with brains will see that and a maxed dar bar 50 miles out, and start yelling on channel 2 "HQ Attack inbound!", but nobody will come. The ONLY time I've seen massive numbers repel an HQ attack was after they show up on radar as dots.
Ultimately, you've probably got an overkill situation. If it only takes 2 B17 forms to guarantee destruction of the HQ, you can probably fly those in and drop before being intercepted. If you take 12 B17 forms there, everybody who sees the blob inbound will be up in a komet.
Incidentally, we're looking at prime arado material here. Send some norden aces ahead in Ar-234s, and have them pave a path through the radar. Ar-234s are great for prestrike prep. I remember hooking up with a couple guys and flying a single Ar-234 for 4-hours -- climbout, go on station, liaise with a strike as it rolls, whack the field radar and fuel 10 minutes before the props arrive, land, rearm, repeat.
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Well since i probally go to HQ more than most due to chores. i've had 6 163's on my single formation. Killed radar and KEv367th and I got 4 163's killed smoked 2 others and landed.
I see no problem with 163's. And Guys in my squad love gunning for me big perks killing 163's. so far I believe we have killed 50 163's not sure but know its close to that.
and Crow maw ty your right 1 bomber formation has better chance of gettting to HQ. and if you want to destory HQ just have second bomber 10miles to 15 miles trailing first bomber group. Takes time for 163's top land and reup
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Unescorted Buffs massacred?? How unrealistic!! ;)
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The 163 system is just fine with me:)
Once I killed 2 in a single B17 sortie, so they are definately killable.
I also fly them a lot, wasting my perks, for I get killed in them too:)
To make a successful HQ raid now, and be protected against the 163, there is but a little thing to do:
1. Pork the fuel on the 163 base. 2 of the escorts, leading, can do that.
1b. Sacrifice 3-4 escorts to deack and vulch the base if ya don't want to pork the fuel. Or do both! Vulchers should be able to escape once the dark curtain of no Dar is drawn!
2. Have a good gunner on board.
3. Try to sneak a bit rather than steaming over several radar circles.
So stop complaining. 163 just adds a bit of spice to AH!
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Give me 2 pilots in mustangs (for the fuel and loiter time) and the 163 threat is cya...
163's still have to take off and when they do they get vulched....
pork their fuel on top of this gives them a choice to avoid being vulched and walling the throttle or trying to go after the bomber box... either way they burning fuel...
no fuel no 163's its just that simple...
If i was to form a HQ mission I's have the following..
2 boxes of B17 9 planes each formation. ( 6 pilots) each formation attacks the target entering from a different sector... 20k alt or higher for both boxes.
4 high alt escorts (p51's )
2 low alt jabo's / strafers with 500lbs rocks....
Total pilots 12.........
163 counter attack none....
Without a good plan youve already lost...
2 cents..
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by Pepe
Unescorted Buffs massacred?? How unrealistic!! ;)
Just for the record, we had 10 Escort fighters flying the wth the mission.
And there were alot of 163's as I shot down 2, assist on 1, and I saw at least 4-5 going down, with others still flying.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Just for the record, we had 10 Escort fighters flying the wth the mission.
And there were alot of 163's as I shot down 2, assist on 1, and I saw at least 4-5 going down, with others still flying.
Sooooo: You killed a good bunch of them. Plus your escort were not doing their duties or they would have killed the rest, IMHO.
Cheers,
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The escorts were doing their best but as you know, those little buggers are tough to catch.
They did their job, but as it was said earlier, better planning would have made the raid more succesful.
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A high alt prop plane with a big gun is going to be a bigger danger to your bombers. 163's are a good last resort, but give me a 110 (even the C model) any day. Much more durable and many times the firepower (much more ammo)
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We did that very thing. The rooks tried an HQ raid that same night, and the MAW grabbed a bunch of A-8s and grabbed to 30 K. NOthing was left to that raid either.
We thought about 163's, but we had enough time to climb out, and not worry about fuel.
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yes...
our previous "repork package" did not make it..
I wish we had more piltos of my caliber..lolol
I would have dive bomed there fuel in my Arado..:D..or yes a p51 attak woudl work well..but the fastewst would of been arado...OR MAYBE THE me262!!!!!!lol.Yes I have starfed in a jet...and yes..I made it home..(who needs ailerons anyways)...
Yes Hitlers Famed "Blitz Bomer"..where are our hardpoints on the Jet??
But ..I love muck.....BUT DOnt take my me163 away!!!..
That thing is a UFO!!!!...
Was a great attak...well we lost the msiion..but it looke DAM GOOD.....and hell thats what were about.."Lookin Good"..heheheheh
Yes we jsut needed the fuel porked..everything would of went perfect....
Dam i hop e those screen shots get put up...was insane..I have never seen so many 163's zippn around....
Ya..I got soem my self...ping ping ..BANG!!!!
Frikn popping little Fleas:)
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
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I think that there are a lot of skilled Me163 pilots out there.
I learnt how to engage bombers in the old Warbirds 2 sim years ago. Where you would have to take a long patient time to set up a frontal attack to survive an uber-auto-gunnner at 30000 feet.
These days I fly the Me163 like a 109. Fly up and ahead, and come past in slashing or head on attacks at high speed, with a hard break /dive away.
This tour, I have 14 kills in the 163 and no deaths. At least 11 of these are bombers, whos pilots have taken 30-60 minutes to fly to the enemy field, just to get shot down by a punk(me) who took 2 minutes to rocket to 30000 feet.
I think that Muckmaw has a fair point. I will catagorically state that no escort fighter can intercept or defend against me in a 163. I am unstoppable.
I will not run out of fuel and be caught gliding either, as I am too smart for that. (keep a bit in reserve).
Its not like I am the greatest pilot in Aces High. If I can do this, and there are 500 people online, at least 10 hotshots will be buzzing around in 163 as well.
Ive been waiting years for an online 163. But they are probably a bit perk-cheap for the impact they have. But I wouldnt ant anyone to remove them for the Main Arena.
You HAVE to be desperate to fly one :D Usually your team is going to lose a map well before a Me163 is usefull :)
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A couple of things I didnt see mentioned and wonder....
1) B-17s gun convergence is awful short...if you do have a low con on your six, my experience has been the gun convergence is about 400ft. The cons is well longer that that in most cases...by time you are starting to put some pings on the con, you'r airplane is already falling apart reapidly
2) The formations themselves being so close and so easy to decimate in a short pass
I haven't seen many buff formations make a raid and scoot home to land. Most of the raids i've particpated in or intercepted simply got swatted down quickly. The only exceptions have been the ones at 25k or better who manage to outturn 109G10s and other high alt fighters that should, in every respect, out perfrom the bomber.
The bomber guys have a stacked deck with our current version. Drones that randomly fall behind or explode has been a problem as well.
Kinda why I'm flying a Jug more these days :)
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
yes...
our previous "repork package" did not make it..
I wish we had more piltos of my caliber..lolol
I would have dive bomed there fuel in my Arado..:D..or yes a p51 attak woudl work well..but the fastewst would of been arado...OR MAYBE THE me262!!!!!!lol.Yes I have starfed in a jet...and yes..I made it home..(who needs ailerons anyways)...
Yes Hitlers Famed "Blitz Bomer"..where are our hardpoints on the Jet??
But ..I love muck.....BUT DOnt take my me163 away!!!..
That thing is a UFO!!!!...
Was a great attak...well we lost the msiion..but it looke DAM GOOD.....and hell thats what were about.."Lookin Good"..heheheheh
Yes we jsut needed the fuel porked..everything would of went perfect....
Dam i hop e those screen shots get put up...was insane..I have never seen so many 163's zippn around....
Ya..I got soem my self...ping ping ..BANG!!!!
Frikn popping little Fleas:)
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
BGB you know I love you like a brother. But do you ever read your posts before you post them. I mean a spelling error here and there fine. But your blatent typos that you never go back and fix come on read your post and fix typos before ya post um. I mean what the hell is a piltos anyways and what makes you such a good one? Dont get me wrong I am a functional illerterate did I spell that right? But I sure the hell AINT no piltos and what the flippin hell is bomed. Reading your emails is like reading liner notes from a little feet album a language all its own.
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lol ice i call this AH short hand..yes sometimes its worse then others....
But i Do feel as I am a above average pilot....Or the majority of pilots i meet are below avergae...lololo
anyways it was a joke...see smily face:D
Salute...
BiGB
xoxo..
P.S>. i just read thru it again..man..thats not too bad!!...lolol
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As the XO of VMA-223, it's actually my job to take BGB's short hand and translate it into a comprehensible format.
Therefore, it is my failure and not his.
I have been remiss in my duties as BGBs executive secretary.
Going forward, Commander, it would greatly facilitate the process if you can simply call me with what you would like to say, and I'll post it for you, with all the necessary additions and deletions to prevent you from getting banned.
(And if you think I'm serious about calling me with this, you really are out of your mind!)