Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Whitecat6598 on January 27, 2003, 08:25:01 PM
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Gentlepersons....
I am a definite newcomer to AH, and over the last couple months, I have seen and learned a lot. Which is the way things should be for an olde tyme AW dweeb like myself. :)
I have searched this forum, and I have found much information about what is called "Force Feedback" joysticks.
Beings as you all kind people in the AH community have answered my questions with honest answers, I'd kind of like to know why or why not a FF stick is good for our AH environment or no.
The major plus to me, seems to be the elimination of "centering", and all the mechanical problems.... however, it also seems as though even though, some people would spend one hundred dollars for a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback, Version 2... the benefits outweigh the cost, when it comes to being able to center up on a target.
I have covered pretty much a zillion thoughts that could lead to a million personal opinions about "force feedback".
I'm just kind of curious what "force feedback" will do to my own accuracy, and my own experiences within AH.
I kind of went from point A to point C and back to point B with this question... I hope the reader of this question kind of "gets" what I am asking... In other words, why should I get one or not... being a dweeb like myself.
Best Regards,
WC
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Force Feedback sticks ? Basically they are uncooperative sticks that throw fits while you're trying to do precision work .
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Wlcome to AH Whitecat!
I use and like my CH Pro: fighterstick, rudders, and throttle, and recomend them. They are about $100 each. A lot of other folks like the TM Cougar stuff.
Either way, if you think you are going to be doing this, or any flight sim quite a bit, you won't regret buying good stuff.
eskimo
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HI WhiteCat!
I use nothing but MS FFB Pro...It is kinda funny but I won't use anything else....It's clunky but solid and very well built.....FFB gives you a feel on the stik for the "stall envelope" and adds immensly to emersion for me...Other people hate it.....If HOTAS ever came out with FFB I would switch.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
HI WhiteCat!
I use nothing but MS FFB Pro...It is kinda funny but I won't use anything else....It's clunky but solid and very well built.....FFB gives you a feel on the stik for the "stall envelope" and adds immensly to emersion for me...Other people hate it.....If HOTAS ever came out with FFB I would switch.
Eskimo, Suave, thanks for your opinions... but pretty much committed to spending the monies... I'd just like to hear how other folks deal with FFB.
SirLoin... So far, from what you said it sounds good... I like flying on the edge, and if a FFB stick could give me the "feel" of the edge of a stall (accellerated or otherwise) I would like that.
So, I take it that you advise such. :)
WC
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I would never want a force feedback fighting my control of the stick.
I just got a CH Pro fighter stick to complete my CH Pro rudder, Throttle.
I couldn't be more impressed by the control of the CH stick......I pretty much have built in auto angle with this thing..... wherever I let go of the stick, the plane will stay rock solid on that course.
I also don't need to have any deadband anymore. I have almost zero nose bounce and hardly ever can make my pony sping anymore unless I really want it to.
It's worth every penny IMO too.
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I had a logitech Force feedback stick and the damn thing needed to be recalibrated every time i rolled.. The stick would kick me out of autoclimb every time..
I didnt like it much so it went back to the store...
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I'm pretty much under the impression that Logitech stuff sucks, I don't like their equipment, it always spiked on me, and never had a great button setup. I LOVE my MS Force Feedback 2. While I don't have the cash (or the space in my dorm room...) for a HOTAS Cougar, it would be a great setup. In the meantime, the MS FFB2 is a great stick. I totally agree with SirLoin, feeling the stall and reaction of the aircraft is a nice touch, and adds as much to immersion as Mitsu's sound packs do. Hope your invesment is worthwhile, enjoy!
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FF sticks were cool back in the Crimson Skies days.. After a week of AH I promptly sold my FF stick and went all CH USB. Like he said.. not good for precision work and snap shots.
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So.......... From what I have read so far... those that use FFB sticks love the way they enhance the game, and those that don't use them could actually live forever without an FFB. Unless there is a third side of the coin here. :D
I've known of several sticks, and even some that were called "mouse sticks"... like Gravis and others. My main question here is that (regardless of my own personal opinion about any FFB stick) to put it bluntly:
Does a (say) Microsoft Sidewinder Pro FFB, (Version II), or even Joe's Super Pro FFB, (Version XXIV), make a real difference in AH??? I am (desperately) trying to find an excuse to spend the hundred bux.... but at the same time, I really don't want to spend that unless there is a darn good reason for doing so.
Please fellow AH heros and friends, I really am not trying to start a joystick flame war here... I am just looking for the advantages of an FFB joystick, over not having one. However, at the same time, if my current stick (MS Sidewinder Pro [without FFB]) is "basically" the same thing, then I get to keep my hundred bux in my pocket. :)
That way I'll have more money for beer!!?
Best regards, and thanks folks!
WC
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My FF stick doesn't work. Forces don't get updated too often, first minutes of flight after game start there's no FF on the roll axis.
As soon as there are forces it's like a normal stick except it doesn't center too well. There IS a center that's at a constant stick position, just the forces in the center are very weak.
Stall/Gun/Damage-Shaking works, but I tuned it down a lot, it doesn't help flying ;)
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Whitecat:
I've got my MS FF2 sitting in a corner collecting dust. I bought a TM Afterburner non FF. If you do a lot of buffing don't even think of buying a FF stick. The self centering feature of non FF sticks is crucial to precision bombing. Plus the sticks in RL aeroplanes do self center unlike FF sticks.
My two bobs worth.
Uncle.
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FFB sticks are fine, until yoor plane receives any damage. Then the thing will shake like crazy while you're trying to rtb your crippled bird, requiring you to use thumb and finger tips to manlipulat the stick to prevent covering the eye which enables the ffb. A consideration.:eek:
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I like my FFB sidewinder, because without the springs you get more positive control. I set damping and deadbands to zero (no POTS to wear out mocrosoft sticks use LED's instead) and all the sliders to 100%. As for the forces, they are extensivelyadjustable (like everythign else in AH), even the damage shake as someone else described is tuneable. (it is also extremely good for bombsite calibration - since no spiking from a bad/dirty POT)
I like mine FFB pre pro II very much, but that is just my opinion
Edit to add, since Air Warrior on AOL days - (and after destroying a cheapy Gravis disposable stick) I have only had 2 sticks, first was a Microsoft Pre Pro (still works perfect) and now this FFB version of same.
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Yep nobody makes an X and Y axis like microsoft, although CH comes close. Can you use an MS stick with the cougar throttle ?
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I use a SFS dual Strike Throttle which I converted to USB. If that will work I gotta figure anything will?
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I used to have one of those, was very easy to program, no software, you just held the button down while you typed in the function you wanted it to do .
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Hello,
Use a MSFFB Pro (original) w/ch pro pedals USB, works fine and I like it. Been using it since 98 when I started flying in FA.
Like it so much got a spare from ebay for 50 bux and I dont think it was even used. :D
Have seen on this board guys w/the ffb 2 having problems but the original gives me none and I prefer the original because it has a shift button to give me 8 more buttons, while the 2 does not.
Suggest the pedals tho, better than twist stick rudder.
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Originally posted by AKWeav
FFB sticks are fine, until yoor plane receives any damage. Then the thing will shake like crazy while you're trying to rtb your crippled bird, requiring you to use thumb and finger tips to manlipulat the stick to prevent covering the eye which enables the ffb. A consideration.:eek:
You can turn that off (setup/joystick/forcefeedback IIRC).
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Originally posted by SirLoin
HI WhiteCat!
I use nothing but MS FFB Pro...It is kinda funny but I won't use anything else....It's clunky but solid and very well built.....FFB gives you a feel on the stik for the "stall envelope" and adds immensly to emersion for me...Other people hate it.....If HOTAS ever came out with FFB I would switch.
Ditto
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Originally posted by WldThing
I had a logitech Force feedback stick and the damn thing needed to be recalibrated every time i rolled.. The stick would kick me out of autoclimb every time..
I didnt like it much so it went back to the store...
heheh...Ditto again
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Thank y'all kind people! All excellent points and well thought out responses!!
I hadn't even considered what it would be like trying to take my runstang home after being pinged, and the stick is shaking it's brains out. It sounds like a somewhat severe concern, as I tend to get shot a lot. :)
On the other hand I do like the idea of getting rid of the "mechanical" interface of my current stick. Having a stick that depends on electronics and digital stuff seems like a great thing, especially in setting up any differences between games.
Y'all haven't made this choice any easier, however, I have gotten all I could have wanted (and more) about the various considerations involved with an FFB stick. Thank you kind gents (and ladies, if there were any) for such interesting comments. I hope someday I can repay the kindness and help y'all have shown me.
Thanks again and Best Regards :D
WC
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Perhaps I'm not qualified to make an opinion but . . .
Sidewinders are not compatible with Via chipsets. MS lists
a patch to make it work - but it has problems with my Via
chips still.
I have insufficient data to provide an opinion on FF2 on intel or Nforce2.
But . . . I can say the effects in AH are not particularly well modelled. For instance, you get rumble while rolling down the runway, but no bounce when your gear hit on touchdown. In some vehicles you get weapons effects on Mg's, but not on cannon. Stall effects turn on and off at odd times - like when
you're on autoclimb at ideal climb rate ???
AH also provides no adjustment for centering force, necessary IMO. Maybe it's just my rig? I'm finding it's a combination of things.
So . . . I'm flying my FF2 with effects off - and it is one terrific stick. I can land shots 600yards out routinely (try that with a Logitech stick). If it were'nt for this one fact - my stick would go back to the store.
Still . . . when I do turn effects on - I like it. Eye candy - hand candy? Can I say that? My B26 took 30 or 40 rounds the other night and I swear to you I started HoWlinG when the stick started
hammering away. I have never had so much fun spiraling down to earth.
Maybe . . . Some day I'll get the centering forces working as I like at the same time as when effects are enabled. Then I'll be one happy camper.
g
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Originally posted by ebgb
Perhaps I'm not qualified to make an opinion but . . . Sidewinders are not compatible with Via chipsets. MS lists
a patch to make it work - but it has problems with my Via chips still.
Yessir, I have seen that opinion, and have also seen where Bill Gate$ has provided a solution...
Not a problem, as, if you have a MS Sidewinder FFB, you are qualified to make an opinion :) ... I've rebuilt my peecee (it was an original Gateway 2000...), thusly knowing to avoid VIA chips for reasons of my own, this is not a problem for me... and btw, IMHO GW sux the proverbial burro schlongs. :)
Originally posted by ebgb
But . . . I can say the effects in AH are not particularly well modelled. Stall effects turn on and off at odd times - like when you're on autoclimb at ideal climb rate ???
Hmmm.... at the risk of being called some kind of smart alek (or is that smart alec?) here... it would seem that at either Vx or Vy (best distance or best height) climb rates ["while in 'autoclimb'"] there would be no reason to stall... Unless you like to play with your stick while in autoclimb. :D
I know it's a trivial point, and kind of kidding around here, but the honest truth is, is that I wanted to type a smilie at this time.
Originally posted by ebgb
So . . . I'm flying my FF2 with effects off - and it is one terrific stick. I can land shots 600 yards out routinely....
Now, I am most definitely certain and without a doubt, it's not the stick that sinks the eight ball in a 100K$ eight ball tournament, it's the person behind the stick that gets to spend the 100K$... however, I'd think that if anything were to convince me to spend the hunnert bux, it would be the removal of certain "nose bounce" experiences.
Not sure that I can tell you how many times that even with my excellent MS Sidewinder Pro, I have experienced "just enough" nose hunting to ruin some of my better times when the 'approach-to-shooting' was destroyed due to the mechanical nature of my present stick...
Thanks!
WC
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I would agree with others that have said the effects are "cool" but the precision leaves something to be desired. Plus the wild gryrations when the plane is damaged are both annoying probably not realistic. As far as I can tell the MS SW FF2 has a relatively big center dead zone that can't be programmed out. That yellow box in the Sidewinder control software that LOOKS like a deadzone control is NOT directly related to deadzone. Don't mess with it- it will totally mess up your scaling near the centerpoint.
I find the twisty stick (for rudder control) to be extremely annoying. But you can add CH Pro USB Pedals and it works fine (the twisty stick then does nothing).
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715....
Don't I remember you from someplace? :D
Actually, I personally prefer the twisty stick movement. It's kind of like an FFB stick... either you love it, or you don't. :)
When I first started flying AH, and having a private license, I wished for rudder pedals... but then (for myself) realized that a twisty stick gave better control while in "attack mode".
Also... you mention the "precision" of digital sticks... I am to understand that whilst buffing (presumably from a 17) that FFB sticks are less than equal to the task.
Your comments about the "centering" of the stick are also quite interesting... all things being equal, I "should" be able to let go of the stick (of any kind, FFB or not) while in some reasonably level attitude, and have my chosen craft (eventually) regain level flight... not including baddies on my butt... :)
I remember such "centering" difficulties on the various "mousesticks" that were popular some years ago... Is it that current digital FFB sticks (either turned 'on' or 'off') have not solved this probem? Just asking... :)
WC
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Well. I got a CH force fx joystick wich I use constantly in AH and I love it.
It sure took some tweaking before it fit ok with me. (basically I removed the centering springs and covered the sensor in the handle so the force effects are on all the time regardless if my is on it or not)
On the up side I love the trim effects. They add to your inmersion and SA telling you the energy state of the plane. You dont look too much your speed indication because you are feeling it thru your hands.
On the down side this joystick uses the serial port for communicating and its very inneficient. This leads to significant frame rate drops. I cure them disablin all effects but the above mentioned trim effect.
The stall/buffet effects are great too and really aid your flying
helping you fly closer to the edges of the envelope consistently.
Now the rest of the effects are more on the candy side (the shaking when firing your guns really makes it harder to score hits)
So I decided to go without them and get the benefit of better frame rates.
The reports of other users lack of accuracy only partially true. In my case is now the oppositte. I get better accuracy now that i got my settings right.
So to summarize. the force Fx can really add to the game experience altough requires some fiddling to get it right.
Just my opinion
flecha
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Originally posted by Whitecat6598
715....
Don't I remember you from someplace? :D
Air Warrior... I guess you were 6598? ;)
Also... you mention the "precision" of digital sticks... I am to understand that whilst buffing (presumably from a 17) that FFB sticks are less than equal to the task.
I just find mine has a measurable deadzone: you move the stick a bit but the plane (or gun) doesn't respond until you move it further. The "deadzone" control in the Sidewinder control software just makes things much worse if you set the yellow box to minimum. It's not really a deadzone, its some kind of non-linear scaling near zero. Then again, maybe I didn't fiddle with the settings enough.
Your comments about the "centering" of the stick are also quite interesting... all things being equal, I "should" be able to let go of the stick (of any kind, FFB or not) while in some reasonably level attitude, and have my chosen craft (eventually) regain level flight... not including baddies on my butt... :)
WC
The stick has an optical sensor that detects your hand. If you let go of the stick it goes limp- no centering force at all. You have to make sure you were centered before doing that. And if your cat rubs against the stick in that mode, well, you auger.