Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on July 25, 2000, 10:49:00 AM
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As I was playing last night, I realized that one of the few areas where EAW was more acurate than AH was in its handling of ammo counters. Most aircraft didn't have them and the few that did (all German) had analog bars that lowered as you used ammo. Why in a sim that has the best WWII FM do we have digital ammo counters that show us the exact number of rounds we have left?
One of the things that I enjoyed about EAW was having to mentally keep track of about how many rounds my Spit had left. That is completely absent from AH.
I would like AH to model each aircraft's historical ammo tracking capabilities. In most cases this would mean no ammo tracking. In the case of some Bf, Fw and Me aircraft it would mean analog bars. Bars begin at equal length even if the inboard cannon have more ammo than the outboard cannon. The outboard cannon bar would simply shrink faster. For Allied fliers, tough. You'll have to track the amount of ammo you have left in your mind.
The BKSP key would still cycle through the BTN2 options and the option names would still be shown. However all digital, e.g. exact, ammo counters would be removed.
What do you guys thing?
Anybody from HTC, what do you think? If the idea has already been discussed and abandoned, I'd be curious to know why.
Kiitos
Sisu
-Karnak
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I'd love to see the counters removed on aircraft that didn't have them, or changed to reflect the real configuration. I honestly don't think it would take very long for us to learn to estimate the amount of ammo remaining.
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yup
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Yes, but what of the dweebs?
They will flutter and fold!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeager
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I lobbied for this a while back with no success but I still think its a feature we need for historical and realistic combat.
every time you read a combat report from the allies they mentioned they counted in their heads how long they fired their guns ie 1 second 2 seconds etc.
the pilots knew the firing duration of their guns and guestimated their ammo load.
they LW had the analog bars but these were less precise than the digital bullet counters
an option worth having and one we will need for scenarios.
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They could add a variation of color to the last tracers as a clue that you're low.
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Didn't the Allies use tracers to indicate low ammo, then abandon the practice when the enemy caught on? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I could live without ammo counters in planes that didn't have them.
popeye
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I'm for the historical representation.
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Have you ever been to the grocery store and gotten your reciept with a red ink on the border. It marks when you are getting to the end of the roll (same with teletype Paper)
The armorers would load the last 15 or 20 rounds from each belt with tracers. I also believe that they went from every five to every three rounds for the last 100 to 20 (80 rounds.)
I wouldn't mind seeing the ammo counters gone either, make more space on the cluttered instrument panels.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Only if we could chose not to have the special, low ammo tracers. I'd not want to clue my opponent in on my poor situation.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Not to sound like a smart bellybutton but how is this going to improve the game?
I personaly like the counters and have no problems with them not being historically acurate.
If it was something that really took away from the game then I would say "Yes take it away" but I don't really think it does.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Well...
Its very accurate to have ammo counters on bombers. Gunners were standing there feeding their guns with belt-fed ammo, and they would easily be able to see how much they had left.
Its also very accurate to have ammo counters in ground vehicles for the same reasons.
I agree that as far as single-seat planes are concerned, with wing/nose mounted guns, with automatic feed, its not very realistic to have an exact count of the ammo.
However, I think the zeke guns are inside the cockpit right, so you should be able to count those.
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I agree that bomber and ground vehicle guns should have some sort of indicator. Exact if need be.
Mighty1, what this would bring to the sim is the need to mentally keep track of your ammo use in the same manner as the pilots who actually flew and fought in these machines had too. If it is to be considered a sim of the hardware (which is what it is because it isn't in a historical setting) then the hardware should be simulated as well as is possible. The ammo counters detract from the simulation aspect of AH.
Botabing, only the tail end of the Zero's guns are in the cockpit. The ammo feed is not visible or accessible from the cockpit and as such it should not have an ammo indicator.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I really love this idea! Counter may stay for TA where people practive how to fly (as an option?), but in SEA it shall be removed or at least CM shall have the possibility to disable digital counter.
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/legion_fariz.gif)
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/trainers_logo.gif)
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Didn't they use to fly the same and only model of an aircraft for months so that they could get used to all it's particulars?
Come on, guys. AH is a simulation. Those ammo counters model your simulated experience on this type of an aircraft, same as blacking out of the screen simulates G-forces.
miko--
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miko2d,
I can't black out sitting in front of my monitor so that must be faked. I can keep mental track of my ammunition, more or less, and so should not be faked by the sim. We have just as much capability to keep mental track of our ammo as the real pilots did.
The pilots who flew these aircraft certainly had MUCH less gun time than we have.
The ammo counters are a handicap just like a padlock is. We shouldn't have them here.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I like the idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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hi all:
ammo counters...keep them, loose them, i will fly what ever.
Yeager, as for you and your remark on dweeds, you are nothing more then gutter slugde as far as i can see. yes there are people in this game that need ammo counters and even still, are not the best pilots, but they are here for fun, that is why it is called a game. now if they drop the ammo counters i am sure not as many of those dweebs will flutter and fold as you think. but i bet you will, been the wannabe that you are, and i can just hear you whinning now, *oh sure you got me, but only because i was out of ammo*
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Have to disagree with you, Karnak.
You can keep mental track of the ammunition like a real pilot only if you fly the same plane for a while like they did.
If you switch types you will be at a disadvantage for a period of time.
There are some planes not very popular that are needed in the scenarios and special events. People flying in them must play role of an experienced pilots, but they will be at disadvantage compared to those flying their familiar planes. So you will have much harder time persuading someone to switch sides in order to have a game balance for scenario.
Same for any kind of a historical arena which we will get sooner or later.
My squad 416 RCAF in WB flew spitfires but we were always ready to go fly IJN or LW if scenatio balance required it. CM would not even start a scenario until the balance was achieved.
So we were at a disadvantage flying an aircraft we were not familiar with and may not even have remembered the ammo loadouts on the particular planes. Elimination of the counters would have affected us even more.
Many people did not want to switch sides to fly an unfamiliar plane even though the whole event suffered. Their reluctance would increase even more without ammo counters.
If you feel that ammo counters detract from your realism, just do not look at them. Just as blackout replaces missing G-forces, the ammo counter replaces the mental adaptation.
In EAW you fly the same plane for quite a number of missions.
I agree, analog counters would be closer to real experience, but I would not rate this issue as any kind of priority to waste valuable programming time.
Speaking of realism (as a RL Gunner). I think that absence of barrel overheating is a major detractor from realism.
On half the palnes you would shoot short bursts not to save ammo, but to prevent bullet wobble and/or gun malfunctions.
miko--
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I like it, this perhaps will draw more people toward the Axis plane set if we ever get an Axis vs Allies arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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I believe I mentioned this once few months ago. Someone of HTC crew replied that it won't go away, and we need it for playability (just like flap indicators).
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Well, on most planes you can see the flaps - I'd say nix them too. I also think getting rid of the ammo counters is a good idea in all the planes where ammou quantity couldn't be visually verified.
But I also see having to strike a balance for playability. My vote is still to get rid of them though - good idea.
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I do not see how removing the ammo counters would improve the _game_ play?
Some planes had ammo coun... indicators (like 109), some did not, some used tracers for the last few shots. So what?
What I've read from the various WWII memoirs it seems that 'out-of-ammo' always seemed to be a surprise for the pilot. Fuel was mainly the reason to return to base.
So, having an accurate counter in this _game_ is fun (wow, I shot him down with only N shots). That's all
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It also allows a very precise grasp of your situation. This was not possible in a WWII fighter.
Lets put it this way, in reality I could simply and smoothly track a target with my head and neck. Glancing away to check the situation and quickly looking back has a slight chance of losing my target, but I will probably reaquire him with a minimal effort. The best way to simulate this is with a padlock. This would recreate the feel of smoothly tracking a target. Do we want this? No.
I see the ammo counter as the same kind of handicap as a padlock.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-25-2000).]
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I want the ammo counters, I totaly enjoy the dweebishness involved in seeing 1700 rounds listed twice in my P-47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It would not do anything to improve the game in my humble opinion, however if it were something you could turn on and off, like icons, then I would go for it.
MarkAT
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I'm defintely for HTC developing it as a feature in the game.
Whether to enable it in arena play or just save it for scenarios is another debate, but having the feature would be great, and would just add another reason that AH is a more complete experience than anything else out there.
-Hornet
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Originally posted by Hornet:
I'm defintely for HTC developing it as a feature in the game.
-Hornet
Right Hornet
As you know AH has been started since Feb.
HTC tackle the major things first and then next.
AH is getting better day by day, version by version.
I'm sure that we will see like following Ammo Gauge in Fw190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.warbirdsalive.com/wblist/german/fw190/fw190y9/cocpit_1_small.jpg)
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Oh it's too small sorry
(http://www.warbirdsalive.com/wblist/german/fw190/fw190y9/cocpit_1.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Zeiram (edited 07-25-2000).]
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I think it would indeed improve gameplay, people wouldnt spray n pray so much anymore.. Wich would result in more fun dogfights....
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Aces High desperatly needs options. Not on just one thing here or there but a lot of things. Similiar to (Forgive me) WarBirds.
Offline mode should be more customizable to give the ability to practice. But that's just one man's opinion.
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i like the Historical presentation.. also there should be toggle switches to show what Bomb-rack/Rockets you have switched too ..
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I'm in favor of historical correctness. I also understand the gameplay issues. Therefore I suggest this is introduced as a host option - for SEA, H2H and offline play.
But somehow I don't think this is too high on HTC's priority list. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Karnak,
The issue with the padlock is that it is impossible to implement it.
I will post a separate thread on it because it's a topic that comes up pretty often.
miko--
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Metric system in my Panzer IV, Bf109 and Fw190.. and for upcoming Ju-88 thank you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)