Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Xjazz on January 30, 2003, 03:35:20 AM
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S!
My g'old icon mantra:
Homm..
Its about the time to update the icon system....
Homm...
Precise range finder must go at least under 1000 yard....
Hommm...
Fading code for long distance icons is needed....
Hommm...
One liter of milk, light bre... Oops
Hommm...
Have nice day
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Has anyone heard what the icon system will be like in AH2? I pretty much agree with the above.
MiniD
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Agreed. I would also like to suggest that there be no range data.
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There will be combat training, not for nothing.
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Who needs combat training?
Btw, what we going to be shooting, target drones?
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I prefer range finders on the tags for this reason:
When Im flyin a bomber, and I do that often, I find it hard enough to see the aircraft that blend in with many maps, and they are then able to sneak up on me and shoot me down with an unfair advantage because I dont have 8 other guys in there with me watching my bellybutton as gunners. It allows me to get an idea of how far away they are, and when I should open fire...
S!
Ridge
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Considering bombers have an unfair advantage of multiple superbly accurate guns firing towards a single point with laser-guided efficiency, I'd say it's about the same for both sides.
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I like the ICONS the way they are. I'd prefer getting rid of the "country picture" part of them though and simply having a separate color for each country, be it two or three countries.
I could happily make do without the exact range counter at close ranges; ".3" is good enough to tell me that a plane is about 300 yards away and it'd take up less space than "325".
J_A_B
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First of all there MUST be some sort of rang indicator at distances of over 1000 PERIOD. You do not have enough pixel info on a computer screen to accuratly depict what any bozo in real life can see.
Under 1000 Yards, I have LESS of a problem with removing the distance info as long as you ADD a closure rate. Again, there just isnt enough info on the computer screen to give an accurate closure rate from the visual cues. I however still think the distance info needs to be there because on a computer monitor a B17 at 1000 yards looks identical to an Me-109 at 200 yards......as in, you cant judge distance without an implicite memory for the size of each target....which is clearly not an issue in real life at shorter distances.
Until we all have 3d glasses, the range icons need to be there
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Kweassa,
I suspect you do not fly bombers very often. The guns are far from accurate, and since there is no magical way for them to know how far away the target is you're firing at, the convergence is way off. You can hit a plane with maybe one gun at a time until they fly through the sweet spot, but since that sweet spot is as about 200 yards, the guns on a bomber are pretty useless for fighting off all but the most incompetent (eg, slowly approaching from the 6) attacks.
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I don't like range info in the icon. I'd like to see some thing like at 3k you get 109 at 1k you'd get 109g and that's all.
accurate range data is to big a help in fights. First it really helps with those 800yd kills. Second it promotes some tactics that were rarely if ever used in WWII. The one I think that best makes the point is the rope a dope. How likely would you be to try a vertical zoom climb with that Spitfire hot on your six if you couldn't instantly look back and see if he was gaining, losing, or just maintaining range? How about in that turn fight? I know one of the ways I can tell if Im gaining the advantage in a turn fight is watch the angle vs the range. If im rapidly gaining angle but the range is rapidly closing I know Im going to cross his 6 with a high angle off with only a snapshot and a big over shoot he my use against me. However if Im gaining angles and the range is steady or just closing slowly I know Im going to get a low deflection shot with little chance of over shoot.
So how do you measure closure or if your in gun range? That's what the gun sight is for. Is he filling more and more of the space between the marks on the sight? If so he's getting closer. When is he close enough to shoot? Well the marks on my gun sight are as wide as an average fighters wingspan at 200yds.
I flew in an event in warbirds several years ago where we had normal icons but no range data, it was really eye opening. A lot more fights ended in both guys disengaging because neither could be sure they were gaining the advantage. Very few of those "chase you half way across the arena" because without the range data he couldn't tell he was gaining at 2 yds a minute. It was great to be able to get a cripple home now and again.
Just my thoughts
Sharky
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Sharky
Junior Member
Registered: Jul 1999
Location: Paulsbo, Wa.
Posts: 26
try Poulsbo
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Chair, I fly bombers as often as fly fighters.
Convergence is only a issue of the drone's guns.
Other than that, all guns within the angle to point them at the approaching enemy, fire at a concentrated area. This concentration is powerful even for a single buff. Besides, no vibrations whatsoever in any of the buff guns, plus a nifty external view for tracking things.
Why do you think there is actually a "myth" going around people that the buff guns have been purposely strengthened?
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Originally posted by Furious
Sharky
Junior Member
Registered: Jul 1999
Location: Paulsbo, Wa.
Posts: 26
try Poulsbo
Hehe,
Yeah Furious I always screw that up :) And I always remember my phone number wrong also.
Sharky
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I, Personally, would prefer no icons. I know that isn't going to happen though. Hopefully the icon they use will be somewhat generic, in that it would fade in and out with distance but not include the aircraft type until an even shorter range (i.e.-I can see that is the plane over there and have a relative feel for it's range, but it is still too far away to I.D.).
I would like to see something like that implemented. Perhaps I'm a Masochist, but when I fly IL-2 I like flying it with the icons off. It's more fun when you have to figure out which planes are the enemy and which are friendly without a neon sign advertising it. I understand that many sims are trying to use the icons to simulate visual accuity on a PC, but the 'type tag' along with 'nation tags' make it way too easy. I just would like something that adds a little to the benefits of good SA and doesn't detract from the realism/immersion factor being sought in AH2:ToD
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I read in a thread somewhere that "another sim" is trying the idea of having the icon tag fade in and out to simulate having to squint and concentrate on the "dot" in RL to confirm an ID on the bogey. This seems like a good idea to me.
Have the range counter only show (solid - and not fading) 3k...2k...and at 1k show .9 - .8 - .7 - .6 - then at .5 thousand yards show three decimal points like .499
Only put the "K" after the numbers to the left of the decimal point to avoid confusing 5k with .5 thousand yards.
Just like in RL, you have an easier time detecting closure when the bandit (or friendly) is nearer to you.
Yes I like range ikons to be reduced. It more closely simulates the "fog of war".
The idea of only getting specific model info when the bandit is at .499 or closer such as transitioning from FW190 to FW190D9 (or whatever) sounds like a good idea, but after further review it seems like for alot of plane types the only way to tell them apart was by their performance. This would be hard to hash out in a game.
On the other side of the coin, Do you show FW190D9 at full icon range because the long nose always gave it away? How about P51B/P51Ds? how close do you need to be to see the bubble canopy and hence know its a D model? An added twist would be to have several paint schemes for each model, just like RL, to keep everyone honest and not be able to say "shiny mustang= P51D" ...OK, bad example but you get the idea.
This icon range/accuracy issue will be key for determining the immersion factor IMHO. Done right AH/ToD has so much potential and I have a great deal of confidence in Hitech Creations getting it all worked out.
Magoo
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You guys talk of icons and range finders as if you expect every opposing aircraft to be handed to you on a silver platter.
If TOD is going to truly simulate actual combat, there should be no icons. I would however concede that graphics for some computers may make that difficult to impossible. Perhaps a simple icon that reads "ENY" for opposing aircraft. Color of your choosing.
Closure rates, enemy plane tags. BAH! Learn your enemy plane shapes and what they look like at x yards. AH classic can have all the bells and whistles, make TOD a challenge.
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Originally posted by JB42
If TOD is going to truly simulate actual combat, there should be no icons.
I would however concede that graphics for some computers may make that difficult to impossible. Perhaps a simple icon that reads "ENY" for opposing aircraft. Color of your choosing.
Closure rates, enemy plane tags. BAH! Learn your enemy plane shapes and what they look like at x yards. AH classic can have all the bells and whistles, make TOD a challenge.
:confused: Though your second para is the most valid one, I'll start with the last and work up:
Computers graphic cards can handle the last, if sprites are unique to the model/type of airplane represented on the front end (FE?) In that other ww2 flight sims historic arena, you used to be able to tell exactly what model plane you were looking at from just three to four color sprites! No range icon at all, and definitely no plane shape other than the darker colored 'blob' of something in the distance.
That seems to be part of the case in Aces, but mostly it isn't executed very well. So, where does HiTech go from there?
The "ENY" icon is a no brainer tag. Why not just the country tag, offset one side a little? (I'm flying Bishop and this Knight comes along. Obviously we are going to be at odds with each other, so the extra bits saved by using the country icon, versus however many letters ID... Okay, so it won't save a tonne of bandwidth, but it would sure be easier on the old eyes.)
TOD... Not really much interested in that. Rather prefer to fly the CT (same thing hehe) as I learn the game. BUT, and/or/however, if no range icons available, then accurate historical gunsights should be made for each resolution the game is available in. Historical sights had some pretty good Kentucky windage and guestimation for ranges to the targets. But in a game of this scope, and the variety of resolutions... Well, it just does not seem that the programmers will accommodate us players, so we are back to square one.
Range icons: would be nice if the player could sellect what he wanted to see; full data, or just plane type (pilot name for friendlies), or just the range, or like I said earlier, just the country icon. I cannot imagine it being that hard to update the program for those parameters.
Feel free to bash away at all of my words.
:D
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You do realize this forum is for the new AH2 TOD? Read what the premiss is behind the new game, then reply.
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I was playing b:17 2 TM8th last night (yes, i still have it)
Trying to spray at a far away target, nearly 0 hits
Getting in close, lots of hits, plane goes down quite fast
B172 has no range icons, real life has no icons
Long shots are hard in b172, longs shots were hard in real life
You have to get in close in B172, you had to get in close in real life
AH has icons
long shots are easy
getting in close isn't easy as that guy has already seen you!
Now, which game more closly mimics real life?
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Originally posted by JB42
You do realize this forum is for the new AH2 TOD? Read what the premiss is behind the new game, then reply.
Premise{sp?}: Tour of Duty {TOD} is weekend warriors on steroids. Based loosely on historical actions in WW2, using the available assets within Aces High. Substitution for missing assets is often employed to meet the TOD mission requirements.
Is that close to correct? yes/no?
Regardless of JB42's misconception, it is my understanding that the icon issue will effect all arenas. Thus, mine and other folks postings on it have a certain validity about them in this forum. IMHO at least.
JB42: If you look closely at the thread itself, it says AH2 & icons started by XJazz. Yes it is in the AH2-TOD forum, but you could at least make allowances to a {newb} that is replying to the thread itself. Plenty of times these threads get misplaced, or started in the wrong forum for whatever reason.
I'm sorry your tunnel vision prevents you from seeing the big picture. man that sounded trite Broaden your horizons. Try looking at each post from the perspective of the writer. :p
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Gissom, I didnt mean to sound like i was insulting you. I just wanted you to read up on the subject so I wouldn't have to type what I now I have to type.
In the third quarter of 2003 Aces High will cease to exsist. In it's place Aces High 2- TOD will be launched. TOD is no longer a every couple of days 2 hour scenario, but an actual 24 hr. every day arena. There is an arena that is dedicated to the way the main arena is played today. That will be called the classic arena. At this moment there are about 5 forums dedicated to the main arena. This particular forum is dedicated to the new game concepts coming up in the NEW arena. That being said, i will respond to your previous post.
1) No need for country icon. Only 2 countries, good guys ( the country your on) and bad guys (the country your not on ;) )
2) Current icons display at 6000 yards. thats 18000 feet. More than 3 miles. Now my eyes arent the greatest ( prolly why im flying a video game and not a F/A-18)but, 3miles away anything would look like a dot.
3) You can make your own gunsights and import them into you sights folder for use in specific planes. There are also websites that carry sights ready for downloading. I use the Revi B sight in all my fighters. I seldom if ever pay attention to the range icon while in a dogfight. Either he is big enough in my sight to shoot at or large enough on my 6 to get a good shot on me.
4) I took the time to broaden my horizons and get out of the tunnel. I read the thread closely and also put a careful eye to your reply. Your post says "Feel free to bash away at all of my words. " , and so i did :D
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Anyway. I was responding to the original part of the thread.
So, AH will have only one arena for fighting, and one for training, and maybe one like the SEA, as wel as the Classic or current setup? Anyone have links to pictures of what is coming?
Query: AH 1.112 turns into AH 2.001, adding three more arenas, improved graphics, net stability, flight models, etc. on top of what players already have? {pulling leg} ;)
I am looking forward to a career pilot. The FAQ is such a tease, HT. Give us more info please.
2) Current icons display at 6000 yards. thats 18000 feet. More than 3 miles. Now my eyes arent the greatest ( prolly why im flying a video game and not a F/A-18)but, 3miles away anything would look like a dot.
You would be surprised how large a plane is at five miles, let alone at three and a quarter. It's all a matter of shape assocation. ;)
3) You can make your own gunsights and import them into you sights folder for use in specific planes. There are also websites that carry sights ready for downloading. I use the Revi B sight in all my fighters. I seldom if ever pay attention to the range icon while in a dogfight. Either he is big enough in my sight to shoot at or large enough on my 6 to get a good shot on me.
Like you, I do not use the default sight, but since my artistic talents are nonexistent, I have to go by what others have made.
I have found that of all the different sights available, very few are accurate for all planes/vehicles. Some are so tiny that it'd be better to just put a dot in the middle. Others have resolution conflicts, {I fly in high res} that make them pretty useless. Which does not obviate the need for accurate historical gunsights for the models in the game. Now I have a stable of five sights to use; One LW, Two Brit, One Japanese, and the K-14 and a Navy ring sight, which work okay.
Lag pretty much makes the range icon pretty useless, and again like you, I don't use that in determining my firing point. I use the sights and that good old Kentucky windage from skeet shooting. {maybe i should use Minnesota windage instead?} ;)
Okay. Done pulling legs now. Thanks for the illumination, revelations, and education. :cool:
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One thing ... however. TOD should have no Knights, Bishops or Rooks. Use the traditional national symbol of the plane as an icon as well. White star = US, Red star = USSR, Black cross = Germany, Red dot = Japan, the British roundel for British, etc. (If we really want to get fancy Finland, Romania ... etc., etc. will all have accurate plane symbol icons.
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I think the issue with having icons at all is that the human eye can do a very good job, at a distance, of shape recognition and when you try to simulate that on a computer screen (no matter the resolution or vid card) the bogey just isn't as recognizable. That's why the concession of icons. I'd prefer a compromise of reduced range and info, but if we end up with no icons at all I'm certainly up to the challenge;) But the first noob that accidentally frags me is gonna get an earfull! Of course I'm exempt from that due to my extreme myopia :^)
I'd also like to see us not being able to bail out at 600IAS with the engine on fire while spinning wildly with no wings toward the ground, but that's another thread...and of course I don't plan on doing that whole spinning fireball thing in TOD :D
Magoo:D
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Flying without ICONS = being in a simulation of being legally blind.
Harder? Certainly. Realistic? Not by a long shot.
J_A_B
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Unless the depth perception is a lot better in AH2 (as it probably will be), the ranging might be necessary.
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Hi,
Topic name wasnt good enough. It should be, as mentioned, AH2:TOD & ICONS.
Generally AH icon system is too accurant (Imho). With short look you cant tell if enemy is closing/extending between 1k-5.9k and with extreme short look under 1k range. Also ID of Spit 9 vs Spit 14 is really so easy to tell in RL lets say 5k range? I need a glasses...
I dont want iconles TOD arena but would like reduce plane type & range info accurancy very much.
Fading icons and range info presentation with some kind symbol a'la WW2OL?
If Im understand this right, TOD is not so mush for Lonely-Wolf type of pilots. Then icons should be reduced so much that supprice is real option for enemy.
Flying alone in a big open sky should be "dangerous" business.
WW2 gunsights are desing for range estimation. Would nice if AH2:TOD demand this kind of basic WW2 fighter pilot skill.
And yes, I also would like to have No Icons and Friendly Icons Only for h2h host Arena Setup options.
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I still say no chess pieces in TOD ... my pref. ;)
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No icons please
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In real life how many kills because nemy didnt see attacker?
In real life how many team kills?
In real life how many icons appear??
No icons please :)
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Originally posted by J_A_B
simply having a separate color for each country, be it two or three countries.
I could happily make do without the exact range counter at close ranges; ".3" is good enough to tell me that a plane is about 300 yards away and it'd take up less space than "325".
J_A_B
I agree with teh above by J-A-B.
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How about instead of plane type.. Nation of plane...
See a spit.. it just shows UK, a P51 shows US, 190 or 109.. shows LW.
Just another idea for the pot
SKurj
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Well, If I had to rely on my PC screen to be sharp enough to ID a bogey at anything other than point blank, I'd be in trouble. The question is how much like RL is that? close I think, but in RL I bet you had just a little better recognition....not much better though. My opinion is that we need icons but greatly reduced range and info. I certainly respect opinions otherwise, and we'll all be working with the same system so there won't be any unfair advantages other than what you set up as a good pilot. Like coming out of the sun or from underneath with alot of E.
We surely want to simulate the fog of war.
Another thing that will help to ID bogeys is their context. If you see small single engine planes flying along side bombers and you know your the only squadron in your sector (fighter, bomber, or otherwise), they must be the bad guys. Dive in and get one of those famous "the poor bastard never saw me" kills and then when the stuff hits the fan (or the Spit hits the fan...or messerSCHMITT hits the fan) and the sky is filled with twisting turning planes - good luck figuring out who is who unless one flys right in front of you...just like those RL accounts you read about.
Damn, I'm gettin' wood!!! When will this thing be ready again?
Magoo