Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on January 30, 2003, 08:47:07 AM
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JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (CNN) -- Former South African president Nelson Mandela has slammed the U.S. stance on Iraq, saying that "one power with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."
Speaking at the International Women's Forum, Mandela said "if there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America."
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I bet he and Farrahkan get along great.
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That was a good whine - I particularly like the use of the word "Holocaust" to grab attention - so what if its used out of context.
Lets bomb him next.
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He is getting on, bless him. His mind is not what it once was.
Maybe he's referring to Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Or continued US support of an apartheid in Palestine? Could be anything.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
That was a good whine - I particularly like the use of the word "Holocaust" to grab attention - so what if its used out of context.
Lets bomb him next.
???
Why is it out of context ?
He is not speaking of the Shoa.
see sense 1
holocaust
n 1: an act of great destruction and loss of life
2: the Nazi program of exterminating Jews under Hitler [syn: Holocaust,
final solution]
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He also implied that the UK and US are disagreeing with the UN because Kofi Annan is black. What a tool.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
He also implied that the UK and US are disagreeing with the UN because Kofi Annan is black. What a tool.
ra
Ahh, the race card.
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Ghandi made mistakes too. Was he a tool? :rolleyes:
Mandela is a great man who did great things for his country. He deserves some slack.
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I'm begining to believe that Mandella is a racist.
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I think he is using holocaust in the strict sense, sacrifice by burning.
Deeper still, the idea of sacrifice is interesting because it implies no guilt.
But this is not Mandela's usual style. Maybe he still holds a grudge against US pharmocos after the AIDS drug controversy?
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Mandela was a communist stooge and terrorist. Along with the rest of his goons. After his stay in prison he decided to go to the race card to gain his support.
I'm not saying aparthied was good, but Mandela being described as a man of peace is a laugh. He killed more blacks than aparthied ever did.
And now his proteges are leading the country. Straight in the toejamter. SA is on its way to becoming the new Zimbabwe.
21 000 people were murdered in South Africa last year. According to Rape Crisis, a woman is raped every 3 seconds in South Africa. According to a study by Unisa, based on police information, a million women and children are raped annually.
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Mandela is a great man who did great things for his country. He deserves some slack.
Winnie Mandela stood by him through it all, does she deserve slack? No. She deserves a rubber room. I judge them by their behavior, not by their autobiography.
Mandela is Ghandi now?
ra
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Originally posted by bounder
But this is not Mandela's usual style. Maybe he still holds a grudge against US pharmocos after the AIDS drug controversy?
You mean the crisis caused by Thabo Mbeki's idiotic stance that white man's AIDS drugs dont work on black people?
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mandellas is a silly little man no one really cares what he thinks
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GRUNHERZ: You mean the crisis caused by Thabo Mbeki's idiotic stance that white man's AIDS drugs dont work on black people?
No, Thabo Mbeki subscribed to a hypothesis proposed by some american scientists that HIV was not the cause of AIDS. You will find a lot of info on the web if you do a search.
There were some valid reasons to support that point of view - including a lot of AIDS disgnosis without HIV ever detected and drugs killing people faster than AIDS.
miko
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Didnt we help to get this jerkoff outta jail.
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But he remains the most revered man in the country, credited with a remarkable transition from tyranny to democracy, and a commitment to reconciliation that saved the country from a violent bloodbath.
jerkoff
tool
stooge
terrorist
racist
I bet you are all the same guys who just hate people who try to find fault in our founding fathers.
ijits.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I'm begining to believe that Mandella is a racist.
\
Me too.
Interesting how he is so ready to slam the country that was responsible for getting South Africa to renounce aparthide while at the same time supporting a despot such as the leader of Iraq.
Perhaps it is time US citizens rethink their opinion on Mandella.
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MT. you have blind 'black' faith don't you...and OJ is innocent right?
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Has absolutely nothing to do with race. And no, OJ is a POS.
Go read about Mandela, and what he overcame, and how he was instrumental in bringing a peaceful end to apartheid. Then tell me how blind I am.
There are blind people here, I'm not one of them.
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ok just checking. i know of his prsion term and what he went thru on that island.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Go read about Mandela, and what he overcame, and how he was instrumental in bringing a peaceful end to apartheid. Then tell me how blind I am.
There are blind people here, I'm not one of them.
No offense Midnight but your great Mandela had to say this in the paper about the US and Iraq and the UN:
"They do not care. Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man?" said Mandela,
SOund like someone with a grudge against non-blacks.
Cheers
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Originally posted by midnight Target
jerkoff
tool
stooge
terrorist
racist
I bet you are all the same guys who just hate people who try to find fault in our founding fathers.
ijits.
No I am the kind of guy that hates when someone that we helped turns around and tries to make us into a bunch of nazis. This jerkoff is just jumping on the every growing bash the USA bandwagon. The kind of person that drags our dead pilots tru the streets when we are trying to help them not starve to death. The kind of person who will next be siding with osama bin amazinhunk.
The kind of person that thinks Saddam is a wonderfull guy. The kind of person that will overlook the mass murder of woman and children with chemical weapons just because they dont belong to a particular sect of some religion. The kind of person that when iraq invaded their counrty was oh help us USA help us, Then 10 years later hijacks a plane and uses it to kill thousand of people just like YOU going about their lives. Ya I think mandella is a wonderfull guy. I hope he has a lot more nice things to say about me and my country.
I belive in my country and I belive in my govenment and if they say we need to turn iraq into a glass parking lot I support them 100%.
Are we Americans perfect no we are not do we make mistakes yes we do. Do we go out of our way to help other nations every flippin day yes we do. When there is a earthquake or natural disaster some where on this planet who is most likley the first and only country there to help hmm let me think. iraq no not them korea nope spain dont think so france not them sweden too busy russia not saudi not even close iran cant think of a time they helped japan nope they work too much china dont make me laugh south afrika umm nope isreal hahaha. Ya they call US then the next thing outta their mouth is what a bunch of criminals we are well screw um screw um all and start with that jerkoff Mandella.
P.S. If I mentioned your homeland above please dont take it personal I was just trying to make a point. I am sure there are decent caring helpfull people in every one of the above mentioned
countrys. Its just when your a uncaring unhelpfull war criminal nazi American you kind of take it personal when some jerkoff points that out to you. Ok the gas chamber out back is empty I gotta go fill it up again damn vermon gotta kill um all.
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There are blind people here, I'm not one of them.
I hope you have a parachute in case you ever fall off your high horse.
ra
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Death to Amreeka!
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LOL...so, get his gvmt. to toss him in prison for, say, 30 years or so...that'll make him keep his trap shut ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
jerkoff
tool
stooge
terrorist
racist
Perhaps it is time US citizens rethink their opinion on Mandella.
It's terrible when you don't agree.
I'm sure Mandela has some un-paid parking tickets or something to further slander his opinion with.
That was a good whine - I particularly like the use of the word "Holocaust" to grab attention - so what if its used out of context.
As already pointed out theres more than one meaning to that word.
1. great or wholesale destruction of life, especially by fire. 2. an offering devoted wholly to burning; a burnt offering. [Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holókauston a burnt offering, properly neut. of holókaustos burnt whole] 3. the genocidal murder of Jews by the Nazis in World War II.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by ra
I hope you have a parachute in case you ever fall off your high horse.
ra
When your head is stuck that far in the sand, it doesn't hurt when you fall.
MT, you can say what you want, but the problems in SA since Mandela and his stooges took over are legion. They've replaced oppresion by a white minority with oppresion by a seclect black minority. Except now the police is less effective.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27059
Apartheid in the rearview mirror. Is South Africa capable of overcoming epidemic of crime?
http://www.wpni.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/s_africa/stories/father0294.htm
A close look at Mandela.
I'll say it again. Aparthied needed to be destroyed. However, do not lift up Mandela just because he was the one who helped do it. It's like cannonizing Stalin because he helped overthrow Hitler.
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If I had to pick a favorite part, I'd say it was this one:
Mandela said U.S. President George W. Bush covets the oil in Iraq "because Iraq produces 64 percent of the oil in the world. What Bush wants is to get hold of that oil." In fact Iraq contributes to only 5 percent of world oil exports.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/30/sprj.irq.mandela/index.html
I think there is a certain zoo in spain that he needs to tour.
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Originally posted by rc51
mandellas is a silly little man no one really cares what he thinks
Apparently, many here in this thread do, including you. If you all didn't "really care what he thinks", you all wouldn't comment on him. You fear his opinion that much?
Just my take on it.
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Mandela's comments are clearly ignorant and he incredibly misinformed. I think I have lost all repect for him if he really believes those things he said. He is being an idiot.
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I would fear him if he is allowed to drive a car.
Originally posted by SaburoS
Apparently, many here in this thread do, including you. If you all didn't "really care what he thinks", you all wouldn't comment on him. You fear his opinion that much?
Just my take on it.
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What has Mandela done for South Africa,
Other than remove apartheid?
Since he took over and the following governments S. Africa has been a hell hole of rape,crime and AIDS. Yes an Utopia indeed. :rolleyes:
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I belive in my country and I belive in my govenment and if they say we need to turn iraq into a glass parking lot I support them 100%.
That's foolish. Not because you're willing to use that tired, stupid cliche, but because you would not question your government's motives if it chose to kill several million civilians with atomic weapons.
That's not patriotism - that's abject stupidity.
What has Mandela done for South Africa,
Other than remove apartheid?
Since he took over and the following governments S. Africa has been a hell hole of rape,crime and AIDS. Yes an Utopia indeed.
lol That's like saying:
1) Well the Nazis were evil bastards - but at least there wasn't much crime!
or
2) Communism may have been a suffocating destructive form of slavery - but at least there wasn't much crime!
What did that Ghandi ever do for India, apart from liberate a contintent?
The transition from apartheid to majority rule was remarkably bloodless. For that alone, the remarks of an old and aging man can be excused.
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Dowding it wasn't bloodless , look what happened afterwards, the country is run by savages.
Disclaimer: This is not meant to be Hypocritically correct.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Mandela's comments are clearly ignorant and he incredibly misinformed. I think I have lost all repect for him if he really believes those things he said. He is being an idiot.
You know Grunherz, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Except one thing - I don't think its worth writing off his whole life for - he has not lost all my respect.
I was most startled by this, from a man famous for conciliatory rhetoric as well as his firebrand credentials. Saddened even.
My belief is he has become a cantankerous old man (and he is getting very old now), who couldn't give a toss what people think of him, and is willing to say things just to piss people off. (like my Grandad was).
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Why is so much of the world so bent on protecting a murderous dictator ?
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It's not why are they protecting one dictator, but why we have singled out one dictator in particular.
Especially with our record of installing them or endorsing them, and butressing their regimes against their people, with funds for the police and military.
That and the surfeit of other dictators about the place.
But Mandela is talking ill-informed crap IMO.
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It's not why are they protecting one dictator, but why we have singled out one dictator in particular. Especially with our record of installing them or endorsing them, and butressing their regimes against their people, with funds for the police and military. - Bounder
Hello Bounder,
If you refer to Saddam Hussain, you will hear convincing evidence to answer your question when US Sec of State Powell addresses the United Nations - in a week or so.
Regarding your qualifier: "Especially with our record of installing them or endorsing them, and butressing their regimes against their people, with funds for the police and military."
Past foreign policy is irrelevent. Its irritating to hear this rationale for non-support of Bush's policy towards Iraq repeated so often. If you don't like how Bush is handling Iraq, please choose another argument.
Americans, whatever their political views, ALL expect the President to protect our families and loved ones from outside threats. That expectation willl not be set aside because someone thinks that American foreign policy has not been consistent over the years. The issue is security.
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Especially with our record of installing them or endorsing them, and butressing their regimes against their people, with funds for the police and military.
America supported Stalin in WWII, one of the most murderous dictators in history. Care to second guess that policy?
ra
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he has not lost all my respect
What will it take?....... he was a terrorist, his followers killed people in his name, his wife killed people in his name.
How many tires and gasoline does it take?
His comments were idiotic but "his entire" life is nothing to exalt.
His government was a failure by any measure. The conditions in SA are nothing to be proud of.
The real question is what has he done to "earn" respect and why should we think his comments have any meaning what so ever.
Lots of people have been prisoners and political prisoners and survived. There is nothing inherently "unique" in his life, especially on that continent.
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Originally posted by ra
America supported Stalin in WWII, one of the most murderous dictators in history. Care to second guess that policy?
ra
"Uncle Joe" Stalin was at least ready to let millions of Russians die fighting the Germans on the eastern front. At the time it was better to be friends with him and let him tie up all those German soldiers than to be enemies and risk him making some sort of truce with the Germans. Although Hitler and Stalin hated each other the fact that the clash was destroying each others military would have been reason enough for a false truce.
Stalin would have been glad to let the Brits/Americans/etc bleed the Germans white before eventually breaking the truce and invading Germany once the hard part was over. He would have too.
By making him an allie the west forced Hitler to keep on fighting him.
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What are talking about? Stalin and the Soviets were effectively fighting the Germans on their own since 41' till the allies landed in NA.
**exclaimer dont start telling me about rhubarbs and circuses or even the Battles in Libya. Although this was "real" fighting, the German invasion of russia was on a scale far greater then either of these 2 theaters. The fact is the western allies had no choice. They had to work with Stalin and they were all to ready to let the Soviets bleed the German forces dry.
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I saw a portion of Mandela's speech on the news. When he spoke of "unspeakable attrocities" he referred to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This was a pretty good shock to me coming from him. Thought he wasn't the type to resort to this tactic when speaking publically, especially when he should be educated enough to know about such places as Bataan and Nanking, not to mention THE Holocaust.
mauser
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Originally posted by Batz
The real question is what has he done to "earn" respect
Simple - hes black, of course. So much for not judging people "by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character," eh?
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japan isnt about to invade any soverign nations without a declaration of war. or u.n. mandate.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Eh ... you serious? If you were trying to make a point, I'm afraid the only point you made was that of your own ignorance. Norway spends 2% of it's GNP on foreign aid, and I'm sure most of those nations you mentioned spend a significant amount of their GNP on helping others, unless they are in need of help themselves. Hell even SOVIET Russia sent aid when there was a major natural disaster. I remember reading about an An-22 that went down during a major airlift operation bringing aid to Mexico. How much does the USA spend on foreign aid in percent of your GNP? ... and NO, sending Carrier Battlegroups does not count as aid.
The US is the leader in foreign aid. Who cares about your low GNP? This doesn't even include the mountainous resources that the US spends on making the world a safer place with it's political and military influence.
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Originally posted by Batz
The real question is what has he done to "earn" respect and why should we think his comments have any meaning what so ever.
Lots of people have been prisoners and political prisoners and survived. There is nothing inherently "unique" in his life, especially on that continent.
I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.
In prison Mandela never compromised his political principles and was always a source of strength for the other prisoners.
During the 'seventies he refused the offer of a remission of sentence if he recognised Transkei and settled there.
In the 'eighties he again rejected PW Botha's offer of freedom if he renounced violence.
It is significant that shortly after his release on Sunday 11 February 1990, Mandela and his delegation agreed to the suspension of armed struggle.
Mandela has honorary degrees from more than 50 international universities and is chancellor of the University of the North.
He was inaugurated as the first democratically elected State President of South Africa on 10 May 1994 - June 1999
Nelson Mandela retired from Public life in June 1999. He currently resides in his birth place - Qunu, Transkei.
"especially on that continent"...
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honorary degrees and rhetoric? They are a dime a dozen.......
even on that continent.
He was much more then your "ebony and ivory" peace nik.
Thats why he was in jail so long. His refusal to renounce violence, most of which was targeted at other black africans.
When he was finally released he gave in and renounced the "armed struggle".
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Originally posted by rc51
mandellas is a silly little man no one really cares what he thinks
yeah silly little man.
suffered years of imprisonment and no doubt a fair amount of torture to stand for what he believed in.Sacrificed his own life for the sake of all the black people in south Afrika.
Eventually the pressure was too much and South Africa bent to international will.Mandella rose from th proverbial pit to lead a new country.Was well aware of the racial tentions and did more than any politician ive seen to allieviate white and blacks concerns.Take the Rugby world cup for instance.Even though it was a policy for the rugby team to have no black players during apartheid and so was a very 'visible' icon of the anti-black country mandella realised it was an oppertunity for forgiveness as well as a new pride for SA. He wore the shirt of the team when he adressed the people, a small thing but if you speak to SA's about it it truelly meant something to them at that delicate time in their history. Imagine it happening in America or Britain if we were like SA?. He continues to strive for peace and understands more than most what true suffering is.
yeah silly little man.........Rc51 just what is it you have done in your life that makes you the clever Big man that can judge a man like Mandella?
I for one admire him. I'd listen to him before I'd listen to half the politicians of this world. A man who has the strength and resolve to do what he did for his people is a rare human being.Why should a man with such a sense of wrong and right suddenly become someone who we shouldnt listen to, just maybe he might have a point. We can never be sure of ANYONES motives in a war. That includes our own leaders.We can only hope they are truelly doing what they are doing for our safety rather than some sort of profit.
rc51? silly little man...
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Hazed his current comments are rediculous and show a great deal of ignorance if not outright hatred towards this country. He should be ashamed of himself for saying those things. It seems he is plainly ignorant of the issues and facts or he is senile - either way he has no business commenting seriously on this topic. Where on earth did he get the 64% Iraq oil figure for example? That is outrageous enough to destroy all credibility he has when speaking on Iraq.
Nice to see we agree bounder. :D As for my loosing all respect for him on account of these remarks and his recent behavior - well lets just say I left that pretty open and non commital the way I wrote it. I recognize the importance of what he did and the personal hardships he endured - but I think he should choose his commentary more carefully and limit it to affairs he has knowlede about. Clearly Iraq is not one of those. Seems to me he is simply falling into lockstep with the mindless left wing euro intellecual psychotic fear of Bush...
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Originally posted by Suave
Why is so much of the world so bent on protecting a murderous dictator ?
No one wants Saddam to live one second on the face of this earth.He is OBVIOUSLY a tyrant and mass murderer of the worst kind. BUT does it mean its ok to kill thousands of innocent Iraqis to get rid of him?
His people are indocrinated by his propaganda.Hell most even think his war against the west was for his religion.They are being used as pawns.Just because they are fooled into believing Saddam is a good muslim doesnt mean they deserve death.
Then theres the question of the huge power vacuum that will appear with his removal.Will he be replaced by an even more radical leader bent on revenge for his thousands of dead civilain inevitable casualites of a full scale war.
You might propose putting a leader in place who the west can trust? Take another look at your history books for gods sake.Look at what happened to the leader we trusted and put in charge of the Philippines.He turned out to be a tyrant in the vain of Saddam Hussain!!
What most people here are worried about is the fact that DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT to attack Iraq? Have we the proof he had anything to do with Al Quieda? Did he help plan and execute the sept 11th attack? IS he Truelly building these weapons and does he intend to use them?
From what I know of him he is capable of using these weapons without any remorse but I have seen many programmes about the Iraqi people and I do not want to destroy them or their country. If we attack what is essentially PART of the Arab world without a just reason it will be veiwed by arabs worldwide as an attack on their beliefs! We cannot afford a muslim vs christian world war and this is what is at risk.
So to you I say YES we need to do something about Saddam Hussein and Osama and all like them.Yes I will do everything i can to help my country in the war on these people. BUT I want to see the evidence.I want to know that we are right and the cause JUST. The whole world should also be made aware of the reasons we choose to fight or they will decide for themselves.
At the moment many countries are suspicious of the US/UK's motives and i dont blame them. What have we shown them to prove our cause?
I'll tell you........6 shells with chemical weapon warheads.
I worry that our governments are not able to prove anything.I fear the long term results of this war if it comes.
I have a hope. I feel for some reason that our prime minister Tony Blair and Americas president George Bush have information that absolves their decision if they choose war. They probably cannot disclose it without risking the lives of those who have aquired the intelligence. I hope this is so. I will back my prime minister and country and the Americans. The simple fact of the matter is I am disgusted by the Sept 11th attack. I feel after witnessing this act that my whole view of the human race was forever tarnished by it and theres no small amount of desire for utter revenge.I just want to deal out that revenge against those who deserve it not just those who live in whatever country these evil scum hide in.
This is why people are worried, its not the hope to protect Saddam. I suspect the majority of people in the world would agree Saddam is evil but would not agree to destoying a country to rid the world of him. Civilisation BEGAN in these countries centuries ago, lets hope in waging a war there we dont end civilisation in a world religious war. It is unlikely I think but then I would imagine people thought the last 2 world wars were unlikely before they happened.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hazed his current comments are rediculous and show a great deal of ignorance if not outright hatred towards this country. He should be ashamed of himself for saying those things. It seems he is plainly ignorant of the issues and facts or he is senile - either way he has no business commenting seriously on this topic. Where on earth did he get the 64% Iraq oil figure for example? That is outrageous enough to destroy all credibility he has when speaking on Iraq.
Grun I need to read fully what he said recently of course before i decide but i was merely commenting on the will of the man compared to those in here who would call a man like this 'small' .
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Read It Here Hazed (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/30/sprj.irq.mandela/index.html)
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Our socialist leaders - republican and democratic alike, do not really beleve in democracy, let alone free market. That freedom is essential to prosperous society and lack of it will lead to weakness.
They think it can only be brought in on invader's bayonets. Of course the history of US provides plenty of examples - starting with liberation of colonies by french troops and all later american liberation campaigns.
But in reality, evil regimes do sometimes fall and get replaced with democratic ones even without american help. Such process is happening even in theocratic Iran and communist China. It happened in Soviet Union. It can and will eventually happen in Iraq.
American's insistence of pushing those worthy values down everybody's throats before they are ready are likely to make it worse, not better for spread of democracy.
Nobody invaded US to make it abandon slavery or give vote to women - even though some countries had those advances way before.
Saddam may be SOB, but his country is the only secular arab state in the region and the closest one to the US before 1990. His rule may be oppressive but you can openly buy and own automatic weapons there, which is hardly an indication of popular opposition to the regime.
Considering that the country consists of at least three mutually-hating groups - shia, suni and kurds, the democratisation of Iraq right now would bring the same results as the one in Ygoslavia, only more savage.
Left alone, Irak will most likely develop into democratic state. With US intervention, the chances are much smaller. It is likely to split into three parts at war and US will have to take over the duty of oppressing shia muslims and kurds instead of Hussein or be responcibe for unleashing the civil war.
24 million kurds in surrounding countries are going to be involved, Turkey and Iran (mostly shia) along with them
miko
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The problem with that report is it does not quote his entire speach.The context is lost when only a few lines are quoted. I'll admit it doesnt sound like a rational attack on the US and UK but then I dont have an idea of the context. 65% of the worlds oil sounds like he is severely misinformed but then again what was Iraqs contribution BEFORE the gulf war?
He could possibly be refering to what iraq produced before Desert Storm and the sanctions presently imposed by our nations and in place for more than 8 years. Anyone have any idea of what they produced and exported before the gulf war?
Could our nations be intent on stopping all oil produced by this country? what sort of money are we talking about? millions? Billions even?
When you see the trouble a few million in government expenditure can cause a political party in power it makes you wonder to what extent that political power would go to, to gain such huge funds. Now consider, if people in our own country wonder and suspect motives what do you think people of nations not involved will think?
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Miko,
You should punt that reply up on a new thread. Maybe then those opposed to to action against Iraq will have a real arguement to stand on.
I agree that its far more likely that the result of this action may de-stablize Iraq. The kurds arent likely to be satisfied in remaining apart of Iraq proper. Iran has a vested interest in seeing the Shi'ites become self governing or even becoming a part of Iran.
I dont think the "Balkanization" of Iraq will happen the day after Saddam is removed. But as the various factions get a good taste of liberty they may not settle for a just a "part".
Thats the real threat. Not American imperialism or Bush's desire to "steal" oil.
To convince me of that the Invasion of Iraq is necessary the President would need to provide real evidence that Saddam has WMDs.
Without that I fear we may end up making things worse in the long run.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Hello Bounder,
Hi Gunthr
If you refer to Saddam Hussain, you will hear convincing evidence to answer your question when US Sec of State Powell addresses the United Nations - in a week or so.
[/B]
What question? Sorry, I really don't know what question you're reffering to.
Regarding your qualifier: "Especially with our record of installing them or endorsing them, and butressing their regimes against their people, with funds for the police and military."
Past foreign policy is irrelevent. Its irritating to hear this rationale for non-support of Bush's policy towards Iraq repeated so often. If you don't like how Bush is handling Iraq, please choose another argument.
[/B]
You say that past foreign policy is irrelevant. But you don't go on to say why.
Its irritating to hear this rationale for non-support of Bush's policy towards Iraq
A few points about that:
Needing a reason not to support something erroneously infers a default state of support, which is not the case.
Citing history is not a 'rationale'. It is an attempt to understand the present. Indeed it is central to understanding the present, without history you cannot grasp the processes, only the events. And it is the processes, the things beyond our immediate control, that really shape the world.
Americans, whatever their political views, ALL expect the President to protect our families and loved ones from outside threats. That expectation willl not be set aside because someone thinks that American foreign policy has not been consistent over the years. The issue is security. [/B]
Security is a very big issue indeed. I would argue that a full scale invasion of Iraq, followed by total disarmament and the installation of a transition government will do little to increase our security here in the UK. It's very difficult to say what the results of such an action will be, but I confidently predict a further radicalisation of pan-Arab opinion against percieved 'western' injustices if this war goes ahead as planned.
I simply don't believe we are any more or less secure than we were 2, 5 10 or 20 years ago. Heck, I'd feel a lot more secure if I was in the USA, umpteen carrier battle groups and a nuclear arsenal that could glass the whole planet. Now that's security.
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Originally posted by GScholz
... and NO, sending Carrier Battlegroups does not count as aid.
I guess that would depend on whether YOU were liberated from murders and rapists in your own house by those carriers.
Not to side with either of you ;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
GNP percentage means everything. It shows how much you're giving of the total of what you've got. The USA, a country of 284 million citizens, will increase its foreign aid to $16 billion by 2006, that's 0.108 of your GNP. Norway, a country of 4.5 million citizens, has budgeted $1.8 billion for foreign aid in 2003. The average Norwegian (and Swede btw.) gives 6.9 times as much to help others than the average American.
Not much in the mood to argue but I will say this. If in need what would you rather receive, 100% of the resources from someone that has nothing or 5% of the resources from someone that has everything? This isn't one of those gifts where it's the thought that counts.
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Gscholz subsidizing the living and schooling expenses of Mohammed Atta and all his "refugee" buddies does not count as euro foreign aid...
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Thats foreign aid, not aid to foreigners.. You know what I'm saying. :)
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Thats cool it must have made you euro 70% tax people so happy to see how clever and capabable your social welfare/education/asylum, sytstems made people like mohammed atta be.
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But do get at least a little bit upset, pleez.. :)
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I think that history shows that the US, since coming out of its isolation in WW1, has been a more than generous nation both monetarily and also with respect to things that have no price.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Your refusal to look at the numbers is typical of the arrogant and egocentrical type of an American. That a toejamty little country like Norway can give more than 10% of what the USA gives, "the greatest country in the world", without any strain on the economy I might add, is an indicator of how little you're really giving away to the less fortunate. Yet you seem perfectly willing to take the credit as the "world leader" in this area also. Your attitude of; "So what, you gave them 10 bucks? Doesn't matter, me and my friends gave a penny each, and THAT makes us better than you!", sickens me. I simply think that a nation that boasts so much of its grandeur should be a little more generous. At least rise to the level of us "insignificant" nations. Say are you a religious man? Have you read the Bible?
Typical American envy drivel. Get well soon.
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Taken from CNN Report @
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/30/sprj.irq.mandela/index.html
"Mandela said U.S. President George W. Bush covets the oil in Iraq "because Iraq produces 64 percent of the oil in the world. What Bush wants is to get hold of that oil." In fact Iraq contributes to only 5 percent of world oil exports."
This imbecile sounds like 90% of those on these boards, too busy making up drivel to get the facts right.
IMHO Mandella best count his blessings, because it is going to be the US that ends up bailing SA out of the current decline they have encountered since he took power. He seems to very easily forget that it is the US that put his scrawny bellybutton into power. Let the little ingrate suffice on his crumbling foreign trade for a bit, cut off all US foreign aid to them too. If he wants we can show him just how horrible we truly are. Ohh, don 't fool yourselves, Mandela is not the reason apartheid ended, he's a figure head. The US public outcry is the reason apartheid ended. Our public got tired of seeing that b.s. going on every day on our nightly news. Its sad, but true.
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Just another case of spotlight envy.
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Wow, are you a psychologist? So many diagnoses in such a short space of time!
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Originally posted by Dowding
Wow, are you a psychologist? So many diagnoses in such a short space of time!
Aren't we all? I diagnose you with noodle envy. :p
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Originally posted by GScholz
Thank you for proving my point about you AKIron.
whatever :rolleyes:
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noodle envy? Hmm... look how ze brings ze sexualness into ze diskussion. I believe zis is some kind of latent sexual attraction for seine mutter. :p
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hehe, you girls crack me up.
:cool:
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Look how he says 'girls' and 'crack' in the same sentence! It is abundantly clear that he wishes we were all girls!
Run away! ;)
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I think you all have a deep wit, that penetrates to the meat of the issue.