Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: F4UDOA on January 30, 2003, 05:44:05 PM
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Just wondering?
It seems as if 9 out of 10 senarios have no Nany or Japanese birds.
Is this going to be the BOB arena or are we going to get to fly the birds we want to?
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Their are clearly tons on wholes in the Pac plane set paticulary on the Japanese side, but I wounder besides us plane geeks if anyone realy notices things like that?
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I notice it.
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I am with F4UDOA on this one. I would only hope that the ToD as it will be known would rotate frequently or at least have a separate arena for PAC missions. If not then I would find myself sticking to the MA and CT (if it will still exist) and heading over to Target: Rabaul to get my F4U series fix.
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Then why don't you USN guys ever push for Japanese aircraft along with yet another version of the F4U or other US Pacific Theatre aircraft when you request aircraft? Why do you only want American aircraft in the Pacific?
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Sez who? More targets is gude. ;)
Catapults for late war US carriers! :D
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Karnak,
We have every F4U WW2 varient (that saw combat) possible now with the possible exception of the F4U-4B or F4U-2
I would luv to see more japanese A/C. Not the ones we are getting however. I want the Ki-44 first, then the Grace, Irving(Gekko) and then the Ki-84 and Betty.
Also an early F6F-3, P-38F and Airacobra would be nice but the Japanese A/C are more important now.
However my fear is that the CM's seem to be in luv with the Euro plane set. I for one find it a bit overdone.
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what planes would like to fly your f4us against given the current planeset?
Karnak is correct in that to have a decent pac set up, one that can hold up over a tour then theres need to be more IJA/IJN aircraft.
There also to get a really good set up planes like the F6f-3 P39 b25 as well as earlier variants of some of the other usn planes.
It would great to have a large 512 x 512 map Rabaul, New Guinea North tip of australia etc.......
I think everyone would enjoy that if the planset was filled out.
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F4UDOA,
There is also the F4U-1a that has not been added. Mind you, I'm none too keen on it either.
What I am talking about is the fact that never fought wonder weapons like the F7F and F8F get more requests than do the Japanese aircraft.
We absolutely need:
A6M3
B6N2
D4Y2
G4M2
Ki.43-II
Ki.61-II-Ko
Ki.84-I-Ko
B-25B or J
F6F-3
P-38F
We could really use:
B7A2
J2M3
Ki.44-I or -II
Ki.45
Ki.61-I-Ko
Ki.102-I-Otsu
N1K1
N1K1-J
B-17E or F
F4F-3
P-39
TBD Devastator
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"Then why don't you USN guys ever push for Japanese aircraft along with yet another version of the F4U or other US Pacific Theatre aircraft when you request aircraft? Why do you only want American aircraft in the Pacific?"
Not a fair statement at all Karnak. Who has disagreed that we need more Japanese rides? Ive yet to see it in the CT forums anyway. You would be hard pressed to find anyone to disagree with the plane set you mentioned. BTW, didnt the F7F see limited combat. (just asking, not flaming you)
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A realy Big help would be, other than of Course More Japanes planes, would be to provide some early war varients of the B17, like a B17C, and an Early B26, ones that were used in the New Gunie and Sollomons area. Curently some less than fully enlightened CM's have included these planes in event's aganst A6M2's this is hopless at best. What this further illustrates is an even bigger problem, we have Japanes planes for the earlest part of the pacific conflect, the allied ones they are to face off aganst are in some cases( as examplifed above) so far from what actualy their in terms of firepower preformance and offensive load and armor that they compleatly dwarf the Japanese planes, the realy porked thing is that not only do we nead more Japanes planes we nead more Allied models to face them off aganst. Paticulary in a ToD type of enviourment, heck Japanes set up's in the CT are realy dificult to do, almost imposable to do with anywhear near 100% historical accuracery. Withen a tighter nite enviourment of the ToD, I cant imagine how at present it would be posable to do, I suspect all initial theritors will be Europen based, unless they give us more planes or do as we have seen in some recent CM events be lopsided do in part to the curent plane set and a posable preception by the CM's that the public at large does not notice such things as 1944 B17's vs 1940 Zero's as an issue, or maybe they themselfs dont notice this. I am glad to hear were geting a New and Improved AH, I am bumed I have to go a whole year with only 3 new planes and 1 tank, and 3 planes mind you that did virtualy nothing to balance anything out plane set up wise, in fact in some respect they hurt things in that regard.
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In defensi of Karnak and F4UDOA:
In general more people ask for US planes than perhaps any other type, we also have more US planes than any other country in the Game, so as a frequent BBS poster i would say that in General karnak is right, I have also sean F4UDOA, request and suport threads champining the cause for Japanese planes. I will also say this, that in the past 9months or so more and more people on both sides of the fence have come to the realazation that more Japanese planes are sorly neaded and their has been more suport for this isue than ever before.
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Slash27,
As far as I know the F7Fs were on board a carrier and heading west when the nukes were dropped on Japan and Japan surrendered. I don't think they quite made it.
In regards to my other statements, I'm not saying that very many people have said that we shouldn't get more Japanese aircraft. What I have seen is a whole lot of indifference to more Japanese aircraft, and when requests are made by these players they inevitably are for USAAF and USN aircraft. If they do request Japanese aircraft they are almost always things like the Ki.27 and Ki.43. I mean we got a damn 1937 dive bomber to balance against your 1943 dive bomber and a 1938 torpedo plane to balance against your 1943 torpedo plane.
Not to flame you, but it seems to me that the fans of US aircraft have the image of the Marianas Turkey Shoot in thier minds and push for every Pacific Theatre setup to have that kind of kill ratio for the Americans. They forget about the early stages where the Japanese dominated. They forget about places like New Guinea where our P-39s and P-40s had wrested control of the air from the Japanese Ki.43s only to have Ki.61s show up and wrest it right back. It took P-38s to get air superiority in New Guinea for good. If we had the P-39, P-38F and Ki.43 every New Guinea setup would include the P-38F. We'd never play out the US having the uphill fight, only the Japanese.
I see demands that the N1K2-J (which already gets dominated) be modeled to be horribly unreliable as it was in reality, but those same players ignore the early war when it was the US equipment that was unreliable and the Japanese equipment that just kept running.
It is this persistant bias via indifference ignorance that grates on me. It is frusterating.
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Karnak,
I think you are making it into something it is not. It is easy for us non-historians here in the USA to make requests for USA aircraft because we are much more familiar with it. But I've not seen any rantings that we do not need any more Japanese aircraft. Ki this, A6 that, N1 this and N5 that...I don't know a Kate and Nate from a Richard, a Cecil or a Pepe-Le-Pue. But many of us are aware of the B-25 with the huge cannon in the nose and the B-29 and P-39...etc and it's easy to make comments about these when dreaming what might be next.
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Puke thats one of the problems.
Some guys who plan "things" dont know the differences either.
They know even less when its comes between variants of the same plane ie 109g6 vrs. 109g6/as or asm.
So they plan and you get bad plane match ups.
You get B5N2 as a counter to an SBD-5 or tbm-3
Or folks thinking they can re skin a ju88 and sub it as a Peggy.
In events and in the new AH2:ToD the wholes in the planeset get magnified and have a real effect.
The same people who call for more US planes are the same ones who demand these types of set ups.
I think the AH2:ToD will help push for a more "full" planeset. But as it stands right now HT is limited in the type of set up that can be run. Unfortunately the Pac and Ostfront suffer more then the others.
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I am one that would definitely like to see some more IJN and IJAAF planes in the game. I need some more historical planes to kill while in my F6F.
I would like to see, in no particular order of importance:
A6M3 32 (the Hamp)
A6M3 22
B6N Jill
D4Y Judy (either inline or radial, no diff to me :))
Ki-27
Ki-43 (I would actually like to fly the Oscar a bit)
Ki-44
Ki-84 (Don't know why this isn't in yet - except for time issues and not many people like the PTO compared with the ETO)
Ki-100 (particularly if choice is between this and another Ki-61)
As far as bombers, I don't know much about them. I would like to see a G4M Betty in here.
What I think is going on is this:
The reason for starting with the ETO is that it has a much more fleshed out plane set than the PTO. Thus, while the ETO is running, they can fill in the PTO set (well, I can hope :)). Also, most people in the US are more familiar with the ETO stuff (how many shows on the History Channel cover the PTO compared with the ETO?). It makes more sense for them to start out with ETO than PTO. I wish it were the other way around, but it isn't.
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Puke,
I can't really buy that. If you're into WWII aircraft enough to subscribe to a game like AH I can't see not having bothered to even buy a cheap, roughly accurate, reference like "The Illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of World War II" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0760307229/qid=1043996870/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/002-8151411-1043208?v=glance&s=books). Sure, it isn't the most accurate or in depth book, but it does give a quick and dirty overview of a great many of these aircraft.
I never claimed these players are hostile to Japanese aircraft being added, which I made clear in the post above yours. I think that these players are, as I also said in the post abpve yours, indifferent to Japanese aircraft being added.
And that is something I just can't really understand. Our favorite aircraft need their antagonists or the play just doesn't work.
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It is understandable, for the reasions he mentioned, not everybody is a plane geek, some guys watch baBa black Sheap as a kind and want F4U's Heck I did it was my favorate airplane till I started reading more on the Subject, it still is a favorate of mine, I just dont care to fly it:)
Also in the MA it does not realy mater to much what models are chosen, it is not untill we get to the CT or an event that it realy does and in the later case my gues would be not a huge percentage of the folks realy know about the finer points, look at the list of us debating this issue, how many new faces do you see in this thread? Batz dont count:) We may be the voical minority, perhaps on different sides of the fence howeaver we share the same pashion and are in more ways than we realise more alike in our desires than we may realise, While I dont look good in Blue, Mathman certainly does, but we do appricate the fit of the suit.
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One other perhaps moot point is that it is prety easy for us to sit back and armchair quarter back all this, picking what planes to add and when would not be an easy thing to do and very much a damed if ya do type a thing.
Having said that I want what I want and I want it now:) I have an insatiable hunger for new Planes tanks, Boats whaterver from WW2 I want to Fly ride and Con any and every thing and blow the hell outa whats in my way, thats What AH is about for me the toys and using them, and seeing them behave as they did on the pages of the books on the shelvs around me.
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I think more was read into a few early posts here than what the thought was on this subject. When I ask for more PAC planes I tend to think for the whole instead of what I call the "well it was on the carrier and enroute so it can be added" thought process.
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I understand you are frustrated Karnak. Just know that some of us "U.S.N." types agree with you on an updated plane set.:D
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F4U,
ToD will run in different operational theaters including Pac, but obviously, you won't be able to fly an F4U in the BoB.
Originally posted by Batz
Some guys who plan "things" dont know the differences either.
Or folks thinking they can re skin a ju88 and sub it as a Peggy.
That's an ironic post. Do you know what a Peggy is?
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Peggy is that tall red-haired lady married to Al?
Karnak,
I'm actually using myself as an example and I would say I'm more read up on WW2 aircraft than your typical American. I don't have the book you mention, but I have plenty of others and still I do not have near the knowledge of Japanese aircraft as I do American. I could propably speculate in more detail why I think this is, but will not. For an example, I only know of one Japanese bomber and that is the Betty...I think it's a G4M or something. I know we have a KI61 in here, but I have no clue it's name. But I can name you at least ten American-made bombers. And you know what, I prefer the Pacific Theater of combat to Europe! In fact, I had in my signature "More Early War Pacific Aircraft" until we finally got he Wildcat, P-40s, A6M2 and Kate and then took it out because I figured it to be a first step in that direction.
I do still think that when you see your normal person who makes comment on the board of what he wants, it's more a wish request...something he's a little familiar with and thinks would be "neat-O." I have no clue what is *needed* on the Japanese side, but I do know we have some holes there and agree we need more from their plane-set. Also, I've been told I have family members who have lost their lives and heard a lot of the stories and I think that may be why I personally have a little trouble flying any axis aircraft. I just don't do it. Or it's just that I like American Iron, I really do not know what it is. And I'm not going to make a study of Japanese aircraft just so that I can make better suggestions to Aces High. I do know this, I do want a green P-38 and an F6F-3 in the three-tone paint with red outline on the stars & bars. A P-39 would be cool too... but that's because I am familiar with them and isn't a statement that I do not want more Japense aircraft. I guess I'm rambling.... we aren't all that learned. If I have an F1 racing game for the computer, it doesn't mean I'm gonna go buy a book and study the history of Formula 1 and all the manufacturers and not everyone in Aces High does similarly either.
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Ki-67:D
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That's an ironic post. Do you know what a Peggy is?
Ironic?
Actually it was a nothing more then a mis type I meant Betty, it was late when I made that reply. But even before the the ki-67 was in AH the ju88 stood in as different types of twin eng IJA/IJN bombers.
Some guys who plan "things" dont know the differences either.
This quote was about those who set plane match ups together for a variety of different "things".
Like subbing the Typhoon for a Beaufighter in the AK event. I can list other examples but that is what I was referring too.
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IMHO, brady nailed it. I want all the planes :)
No sub-group of the major planes is going to make everyone happy.
Personally it seems to me that the only ones really missing out of AH currently are:
Betty !!!
Ki84
B24 !!!
Do-17
He-111
Italian bomber (Marchetti S.79 ?)
Russian bomber (TB-3 or Pe2?)
And then there's the stuff that would just be cool:
Boston-Boulton Defiant
Italian/Russian/British biplanes (Cr42, I-something?, Swordfish :)
F8F
B29
Me410
Ba349 Natter (hehe)
He-162
P-80
Comet
Do-335
My .02, to be muxed in w/ everyone else's ;)
The Collector "collctr"
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anyway...back to subject of the thread. The ETO planeset is much more complete, that alone is reason enough to start out in Germany.
i just hope this whole mission thing turns out to be popular - that isn't a given you know.
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Pyro,
I would appreciate it if you would explain in more detail your plan for supported multi-theaters in AH2:Tour of Duty. Will there be separate servers running ETO/PTO/Mediterranean theaters simultaneously? Or will it be more like the current Combat Theater is set up, with weekly rotating theaters?
I think most players here who have a more than a superficial knowledge of the Pacific War would agree the Japanese planeset is too full of holes to support a proper PTO Tour of Duty. Will the initial release of AH2 patch all the holes in the Japanese planeset (and the few holes in the US early war planeset as well: P-39, early P-38, TDB, etc). Or perhaps will you wait and simply concentrate on the ETO for the first release and then release the PTO planeset sometime next year?
Personally I became too frustrated waiting for the Ki.84, and when my Cougar died, it became more than I could stand- I cancelled my account (Cougar is still out being repaired/replaced). I'm following AH developments with great interest, but at this point I'm not hopeful at all that things will get any better soon for those players interested in Japanese aircraft.
Maybe I'll just have to become an ETO/MTO guy and forget the PTO?
Wishing you speed and success on your project,
Oboe
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CC,
Thanks for responding Pyro
Guess the BoB is when I'll be in the MA.
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Originally posted by Batz
I notice it.
Noticed what?
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Didja read brady's reply above that one?
Their are clearly tons on wholes in the Pac plane set paticulary on the Japanese side, but I wounder besides us plane geeks if anyone realy notices things like that?
It was kinda an inside joke for brady.
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Curently some less than fully enlightened CM's have included these planes in event's aganst A6M2's this is hopless at best.
What event was that?
Here are the Pacific Snapshots we have done.
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=30
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=40
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=45
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=54
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=44
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=23
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=35
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=19
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=17
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=50
Granted there are more ETO events, but considering the plane set we have to work with this is a good start. I did not bother to list the TOD’s Pacific events.
As for CM’s favoring ETO, some might, but it is and has been the plane set that limits. Personally I enjoy PTO more than ETO. Everyone will agree we need/want more AC to fill out the Pacific list.
Good things come to those who wait.
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Originally posted by brady
Withen a tighter nite enviourment of the ToD, I cant imagine how at present it would be posable to do, I suspect all initial theritors will be Europen based, unless they give us more planes or do as we have seen in some recent CM events be lopsided do in part to the curent plane set and a posable preception by the CM's that the public at large does not notice such things as 1944 B17's vs 1940 Zero's as an issue, or maybe they themselfs dont notice this.
I think you might be pleasently surpised on the upcoming CM Events after Niemen.
Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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daddog, jordi,
I don't think you guys quite understand what we're getting at.
It is currently IMPOSSIBLE to do any sort of Pac scenario or setup that uses the correct aircraft. You cannot surprise us with the current planeset:
D3A1: 1937
B5N2: 1938
A6M2: 1940
Ki.61-I-KAIc: 1st quarter, 1944
A6M5b: 2nd quarter, 1944
Ki.67: 2nd quarter,1944
N1K2-J: 1st quarter, 1945
P-40B: 1940
Boston Mk III: 1941
P-40E: 1941
F4F-5: 1942
F4U-1: 3rd quarter, 1942
Seafire Mk IIc: 4th quarter, 1942
B-26B: 2nd quarter, 1943
SBD-5: 2nd quarter, 1943
TBM-3: 1943
P-51B: 4th quarter, 1943
B-17G: 1944
F4U-1D: 1944
P-47D-11: 1st quarter, 1944
P-47D-25: 2nd quarter, 1944?
P-51D: 2nd quarter, 1944
F6F-5: 3rd quarter, 1944
P-38L: 3rd quarter, 1944
P-47D-30: 3rd quarter, 1944?
F4U-4: 4th quarter, 1944?
F4U-1C: 1st quarter, 1945
Just looking at the dates it seems that a 1944 setup would be possible, but in fact the only true 1944 aircraft the Japanese have is the Ki.67 bomber. The A6M5b and Ki.61 simply being mild updates of 1942 or 1941 aircraft. Japanese aircraft needed for a 1944 setup would be things like:
D4Y2: 4th quarter, 1942?
B6N2: 4th quarter, 1943
Ki.44-II-Otsu: 4th quarter, 1943
J2M3: 1st quarter, 1944
Ki.84-I-Ko: 2nd quarter, 1944
N1K1-J: 2nd quarter, 1944
Ki.61-II: 3rd quarter, 1944?
A midwar war setup would require:
A6M3
A6M5
B6N1
D4Y2
G4M2
Ki.43-II-Ko
Ki.44-I-Otsu
Ki.45
Ki.61-I-Ko
B-25J
F6F-3
P-38F
An early war setup would require:
G4M or Ki.21
Ki.43-II
B-25B
F4F-3
SBD-2
TBD Devastator
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I don't think you guys quite understand what we're getting at.
So you would rather have us not do "any" PAC events? That would be a shame to wait to do events till we had the "perfect" plane set.
We work with what we have available and players fly or not.
If we waited to run events till HTC had the exact planes required there would be events few and far between. Most events have 200 plus attend so they must be willing to fly what HTC has given CM’s to work with.
I agree we need those AC, but to not hold events or refuse to work around shortcomings would be naive and disappoint a lot of players.
FYI the P-39 was at the top of our CM request list send to HTC last week.
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I'll add to that.
We don't choose the planes, HTC does. Yelling at us CMs does no good in getting planes where we can actually do the correct historical matchups.
If you can't stand the substitutions... well, no one is making you fly the events. Avoid them if it bothers you so much. I know we can't please everyone, so I don't worry about if a few people don't like what we're doing. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.
Other players seem to enjoy the events despite the heinous subs. We're going to do what the majority of the players want, and that's hold events and substituting where we have to (which is about every event there is.)
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I agree Nifty that fussing about it to the CM does no good. However on the flip side when you sub a Typhie for a Beaufighter that is just plain ridiculous or a Ju88 for whichever Jap bomber. Why not leave the substitute aircraft out of the mix and only use what you have?
Thanks for your insight.
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Originally posted by daddog
FYI the P-39 was at the top of our CM request list send to HTC last week.
That is exactly the kind of crap that I'm talking about. At the top of your list is an aircraft that plugs no holes at all and simply adds to the already overwelming US bias.
Unfudingbelievable. :rolleyes:
The CMs are already on my idiot list for having moronically requested the B5N2, the P-39 request just strengthens my opinion.
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LOL P-39 was not the only AC we requested, but I can see where this is going. Your cup is full.
Make sure you don't ever enjoy any events put on by the CM idiots. :)
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Where was the B5N2 on your list?
How many of the aircraft on your list did we get?
Why was the B5N2 on your list at all given the existing planeset that it would be joining?
Do you even stop to consider the opposition it will be facing?
Why is the P-39, which plugs no holes, on your list at all?
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Look, I want this to be useful forum and I'm not going to allow blatant hijacking of threads like this. I salute your mastery of the obvious- we do indeed need more Pac planes as well as a lot of others and they will come. Assailing CMs for putting together events based on what they have available is completely incomprehendable. I can't even address that with words and there is no icon to represent the facial expression that gives me.