Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JB42 on January 31, 2003, 10:49:48 AM
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So im flying my Fw190A-5 into a57 (pizza map) at about 22k. I start to wrestle with a 20k Spit. We make a few passes and I'm delighted in the fact he hasn't opted for an HO. Low and behold a fast N1KI joins the dance. Well I know I'm no match for these two and start to "extend". Well, OK, RUN! I notice Higgens3 is on range vox so I shout out to him that I have 2 on my tail. He is kind enough to buzz them in his Me262. I manage to come around and take a pot shot at the Spit, but to no avail. No problem, I'm now headed south and have plenty of E to keep my disatnce as I go look for more inbounds.
As I pass south of a57, I pick up a lower N1KI headed for the airfield. I dive down to 14k and take a swing at him. He evades. I'm now heading North when I see the Spit thats been shadowing from our first engagement. He, on the other hand did not dive down with me. He has alt, sees me and starts to decend on me.
I quickly rollover left and put the nose down. My advantage here is gone and I know it. Just as I thought, the Spit gives chase. We are both heavy nose down and making some serious time. I'm now heading SW away from a57. As the ground start rushing up on me at a blistering pace and my red needle starts to exceed 500mph, I look behind me. The Spit is gaining. At what i think is the last possible moment I hit auto-level and go into a black out.
When I come out of the black out, I notice I'm doing a needle width above 525 and alt is 250. I figure that still being over the island, actual alt above hard pan to be about 100 feet tops. I look behind, Spit is gaining? Oooookay. I roll right and start slow turn. Look behind and Spit is cutting our corner. Ting, ting, im taking hits. I don't panic. I wait until I'm doing 475 (please note, Spit is gaining) quick roll left 180 degrees and turn left. I look back and Spit has mimicked my every move. SPIT STILL GAINING!!!
I then just hit auto-level and let him take my tail off.
I'm prepared for the Luftwhiner flames, but come on. First he should have never made it out of that dive and still had the speed to catch me. If my brief stint in physics tought me anything, that in order to catch and object on the same plane, you must be going faster. What is the compression on a Spit, 600 mph?
But to top it off, to be able to roll with a 190 at 525 and 475, now thats just plain insane.
I'm excited about the new realease of AHII TOD, but I sure hope that the info on some planes and the algorithims used to model them might be looked at a little more in depth.
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"I hit auto-level and go into a black out"
So....yer looking for more realism in the flight model?
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maybe it was a jug disguised as a spit? ;)
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Originally posted by JB42
If my brief stint in physics tought me anything, that in order to catch and object on the same plane, you must be going faster. What is the compression on a Spit, 600 mph?
You were both in a dive, Spit had a little height on you, you both end up on the deck, Spit catches you.
I'm guessing that you both ended up on the deck at about the same speeds--Spit had maybe a little more let's say because of his height. Spits hold their E very well--much better in fact than the FW's. Could have been you bled E faster relative to him? Might not have been that he "got faster" but more likely you got slower, faster, relative to him. Make sense? What I know about Spits is they definitely do not slow down quickly at all. Friggin perpetual motion machines they are!
Prolly if you'd had just a bit more of a head start as you got to the deck it wouldn't have mattered as the FW's straight line speed would(should) have won the day. Thing is ya didn't here and that was prolly the difference.
Drano
:D
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JB, I feel your pain.. I've run into a few of these supper spits (not Mk14) I'm still trying to figure out how they are out diving my Jug as of late....And have a spit catch me at 500.. or beter yet.. one the deck trying to out run a spit the D-11 hasn't seemed to work much as of late and the Jug is 40 mph faster then the MK9 :mad:
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From the manuvers you described , you dumped a bunch energy, and from the sound of it you were already in a negative energy state. Spit shouldn't catch a 190, but you have to be constantly aware of where he is. I woulda gone for the spit first, since you can always get away from a niki?
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Like you said jb42 you blew your E. After you dove on the n1k did you try to to regain some E by entering a climb at all?
Anyway, the spit had alt and dove on you. He was faster than you when you started your dive and he's gonna carry on accelerating so he's gonna catch you. A lotta planes out dive/out run the spit but that aint gonna happen if the E states aren't close. If you wanna outdive the spit you gotta start diving as soon as he does otherwise your better acceleration wont mean a thing.
The spit doesn't compress until it reaches very high speeds but is unmanouverable as far as rolling is concerned long before it reaches compression.
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AH Spit IX is a real miracleplane in dives.
I've been caught by one in zoom while driving the 262. I was at extremely high speed to start with, noticed the spit diving after me and gaining. So I pushed the nose down and set to 'ludicrous speed.'
Spit still gaining.
I pull a full blackout zoom up, thinking the sod must be flying at least 700 and can't possibly follow. He does so with ease and actually catches me finally D1.0 on zoom and blows my 262 to smitherines with his hizookas.
I couldnt believe what just happened and I was sure the other guy was cheating. So I hopped in the IX and tried for myself. Sure enough, from 15k the spit gained extreme speed and never lost any trace of controllability. After that and another incident where 2 spits chased me (was in p51) for 10 minutes and never losing ground, I never tried to run from spits unless they were way below me.
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Im not disputing the speed. Heck a rock can do 600 mph from 14k. My gripe is the way it still handled at those high speeds. If he didnt lawndart at 525ish then he most certainly shouldn't have been able to roll with me. As to thrilla's comment about high compression speed, that's what i'm talking about. It doesnt compress until very fast, but should.
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If u are surprised by SpitIX perf, try spit V...
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Mandoble at least the V slows down when you get it level. With IX you have to really work it to lose the E.
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The Spit IX holds its E remarkably well. I dont fly them much unless Im with a couple squadies who like it - Im more of a MkV kinda guy when it comes to spits - but anyway - the few times I get back into a MkIX after a long absence I cant slow the damn thing down!
'
After flying 51s, Yaks, and MkV, the IX feels like it suffers ZERO wind resistance.
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If you were in a dive, hit autolevel and blacked out as a result, you burned a significant ammount of E. If the SPIT was in a shallower dive or just executed a less abrupt pull-out, he easily could have been in the better energy state and gained quickly.
In fact, the illusion of a "magic" SPIT could have been enhanced. As he initiated his more gradual pull-out before your more abrupt one, the closure rate would have slowed making you think you were better off than you really were.
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Mrsid either you are exagerating to the extreme or just making things up.
I fly the spit IX all the time and never had it go to 700mph. The spit IX starts to roll awful once over 400mph, when it reaches "extreme" speed (whatever speed that is) it has little or no manouverability what so ever.
I just went offline and dove from 15k in a spit & 190a5. The film showed they were pretty much the same- they both hit near 600mph and lawndarted.
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LUFTWHINE!
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He outzoomed my 262. That's all I have to say. :)
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Ive had a spit outdive my 262 in the MA... But thats after i tried scissoring :D
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It's not hard to overcome Spit envy, just come to the dark side.
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from th\at situation id have first allowed the spit to dive on me at the beginning of the engagement (when he had alt adv)
Then id try to evade him until the fight got slow and the spit commits to a dogfight (ie he slows down until he is at the same speed as your 190a5)
Then I would have dived out and used the superior acceleration and roll to gain a lead.Once that lead is a good 1k or so id just level and extend. The spit cannot accelerate and then sustain prolonged flight at high speed. Sure it can hold E but eventually that E is lost and it becomes a top speed contest.
From what you describe i think you lost most of your speed in the pull out and possibly in violent rolls whilst under heavy G. All these really slow the 190. A good spit pilot can monitor your moves and adjust accordingly if he has a nicely built up energy state to play with. The spit is slow in level flight only if you make him slow first and make him use his engine to accelerate up to his speed and not a stored energy from a dive.
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The spitfire has an amazing wing design. I think it has an 11% aspect ratio (maybe thats the wrong term) which allows the Spit to dive extremely fast. In fact, the crappy old Spitfire could reach a higher dive speed than the superb P51 Mustang. So, my hypothesis is this- The Spitfire was able to gain on you by diving from a higher altitude, reaching an extremely fast dive speed, then before friction slowed his aircraft, he was able to catch you.
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Dang, this is fascinating stuff.:D
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Im not asking if it could happen ( it did, i died because it happened) and not really asking how it happened ie: e retention, acceleration.... What i'm asking is should it have happened?
I understand how he got the speed to catch me. My question is should his plane have had the ability to do what it did? A Boeing 747 can out dive a Fw190, but can it pull out? No. We were traveling in excess of 500 mph and no way should a spit be able to pull out much less roll with a 190. The modelling is wrong.
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Originally posted by JB42
Im not asking if it could happen ( it did, i died because it happened) and not really asking how it happened ie: e retention, acceleration.... What i'm asking is should it have happened?
I understand how he got the speed to catch me. My question is should his plane have had the ability to do what it did? A Boeing 747 can out dive a Fw190, but can it pull out? No. We were traveling in excess of 500 mph and no way should a spit be able to pull out much less roll with a 190. The modelling is wrong.
After your dive you only rolled 2 times then u hit auto and let him win?
2 rolls aint hard to follow even almost compressed :D
U should have at least kept scissoring for the overshoot,
Fws get slow lots quicker than spits...
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I have been caught by this a few times before and scratched my head. If you are flying straight and level, and a plane is above you, it can catch you going the same speed if it is flying to a spot in front of you. Nothin uber about it. He's cutting the corner so to speak.
Of course...I have also seen planes catch me after already hitting the deck. That is a bit harder to explain.
I think auto-level might be a bit of a speed break too... elevator goes up, then when you nose goes above horizon, back down... then up etc... until you level out. Happens quickly, but there could be a bit of extra drag. Maybe not.
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Well, if the guy dosn't have supper SA, and you have a decent amount of alt as you did here. Try this next time. Go into a Hard rolling spin, and roll into his turn, go 90 degrees roll out flat on the deck....he should spend the next 20 seconds looking for you, and by then your a vapor trial. Works for me 9 times of ten. I would do a visual, but I am at work....can't upload from here. Picture a vertical Auger, that's your manuver. Nothing out rolls the FW, as your getting fuzzy from the G's execute your hard roll to horizontal flight. He will be blackedout and will not be able to follow....If you calculated your roll out correctly you will be traveling in the oppisite direction at 500+ while he spends the next 20 seconds losing E looking for you. By then your a memory.
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I'm assuming this was a spit9, and the A5 isn't a whole hell of alot faster than a spit9... on top of that, nothing, save for a spitIX, outdives a spit9 from high alt. And for your rolls... we'd have to see a demo to make any judgement on that.
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Originally posted by popeye
"I hit auto-level and go into a black out"
So....yer looking for more realism in the flight model?
Well, some german bombers HAD auto
level mechanism to take them out of the
dive. JU-87, JU-88.
Now if you have it @ all aircrafts here,
thats another story.
But The Mechanism Was Exist.;)
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I remember reading an article by a Spitfire pilot, admittedly flying a post war recce late model spit where he got himself into a terminal dive which he was convinced put him supersonic, however unlikely that is. Nevertheless he went very fast indeed, ludicrous speed even and recovered, eventually. So spits can dive fast in real life.
On the other hand in the game it does seem to be a flight model glitch which I for one will now exploit. Let's go!!!!!!
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I remember reading an article by a Spitfire pilot
and
So spits can dive fast in real life.
Not a good idea to believe everything you read... one source doesn't make it true.
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JB42,
The answer to your stated question is "yes", Spitfires could pull out at those speeds. The Spitfire, P-51 and Fw190 are all examples of WWII fighters that did not suffer early compression. The P-47, P-38, Bf109 and A6M are examples of WWII fighters that did compress early.
Remember, the Spitfire gets heavy aerilons at high speed, but the Spitfire's elevators do not get heavy. The elevator authority remains good and relatively light to the touch.
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Two possible explainations are that it wasn't a Spitfire MkIX and was a Spitfire MkXIV, or when you hit auto-level to pull out of your high speed dive, you burned enough energy for the other guy to gain and he just used manual trim to pull him self out, avoiding any unecessary energy drain.
Remember when you hit auto-level, the plane doesn't immediately and automatically go to the neutral position but dependending on your speed, you might pitch nose up vertically first then the nose lowers to a level position. This alone will drain a significant amount of energy, especially on a plane that doesn't hold it's energy very well.
ack-ack
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I dont know if it's supposed to be this way, but spits can hang on to a P-47 in a dive pretty well in AH.
only after crossing ~450 mph the jug starts to gain.
(no science. MA experience only)
Bozon
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Daladyzmon the source is quite impeccable but I must dig out my copy of 'Sigh for a Merlin' by Alex Henshaw and Jeffrey Quill's book too. I'm sure it's mentioned there. The spit is a very clean aircraft and might well be capable of speed that no blunt nosed FW190 or Jug is capable of.
But in the spirit of practical experimentation. I took up a Spit IX yesterday morning and dived it to terminal velocity. The ASI through 480 quite easily an and pegged at approximately where 500 would have been. There was a lot of moaning and grinding and the ailerons had little effect but it pulled out easily enough with the X button or trim. I didn't go vertical though.
What speed it was doing once the the ASI went off the scale is anybody's guess. That I think would depend on the flight model as created by Hitech. Not that it matters but I wonder what account the programmers took of real life issues like compressibility and indication errors. I did notice that the TAS ran way ahead of the IAS on the dive.
At the end of the test flight I attempted to buzz a Rook field at terminal velocity just to scare them with the sight of roaring spit flashing past with locked ailerons and a blacked out pilot. But rather ignomiously ran out of fuel and parked it in the desert nearby. No doubt it's still there if anyone is interested!!!!!!!!!!!;)
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I like pie.
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Just dug out Jeffrey Quill's book called Spitfire, oddly enough.
In it he says he was able to pull 7 to 8 g without ripping the wings off and routinely dived above the limiting speed of 470 mph. So watch out all you 262 pilots!!!!!!!! There's a spit on your tail
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Hi all,
The the question I have is based on reading about spits and the LW planes. (I know that many here say that this is antdotal and is not to be used as the true facts.)
both British and German pilots from the BOB to the end of the war (at least before the spit 14) say German Fighters would escape from the fight by diving away. You can't escape in a dive if you can always be caught by the bad guy.
This form of escape was so common with german pilots that it caused them all kind of trouble when they started to fight the Americans. ie they could no longer dive to escape with much hope of getting away. The LW had to remember, climb aganist the U.S. iron and ok to dive aginst the British. So much for the books.
Regards,
Chris
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In most aircraf there is a point where increasing the angle of your dive doesn't give you an equal increase in airspeed.
Think of it this way - at -4000'/min. say the Fw 190A-5 can hit a speed of 525. At -5200'/min. that speed may be 531 or so. Number are hypothetical - I haven't done the testing.
So if you and the Spitfire IXe are both at 10,000'...if you dive too steep for too long - he's gonna get you. Because when you are on the deck and starting to slow down, he's still got 2000' of 'diving room' to boost his speed. Does that make sense?
Spitfires are very clean in terms of aerodynamics, even if they are ugle as sin. :)
Dive at 2000'/min., maybe 3000'/min. if you need to get out of gun range. If he's getting really close, scissor him (V or H or both) until you are both down to 250 MPH IAS or so, and *then* out dive/out accelerate him. But if you let him stay in roughly a straight line coming off of a dive, he's going to keep his speed very very well.
When conducting maneuvers in the vertical at high speed, it's very easy to lose track of your instrumentation and dive too steep, etc. Keep a close eye on the VSI and don't let it get crazy on you. Also keep a close eye on the accelerometer. A high % of AH MA pilots blow a great deal of altitude by diving too steep, as opposed to using the optimal angle of dive (in terms of acceleration).
Mike/wulfie