Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hades55 on January 31, 2003, 11:43:18 PM
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Ill poot here some quotes from Rec.Aviation.Military
Why i send this ?
JU-88 was a Dive Bomber and i think we must have this capability in AH.
The fact that the germans was not
using it in the diver role, doesnt mean
that it was not a dive bomber.
WE shall use it in a What If Shenario.
Its Sim after all :)
>From: naoscapitan
>Can you imagine the
>devestation a raid of Ju-88s could inflict on a target if all were
>able to release their bombloads in a dive on a target.
Can you imagine the devastation of a group of Ju-88s descending on a dead
straight path directly into a storm of AAA and pulling up nice and slow at an
altitude where even fifty cal could nail them?
Chris Mark
I believe the Ju-88 was a capable dive bomber and could carry a heavier
bomb load than the Ju-87 or hit targets at greater range than Ju-87's.
However, Ju-88's in my opinion, were too successful for their own good, they
were used for everything and as such they were spread thinly. Ju-88's were
only becoming available in numbers when the Ju-87 was already obsolescent.
Ju-87's were still used successfully in the med and Russia but only because
the much more capable (but more expensive and complex) Ju-88 was not
available in sufficient numbers.
I think the Ju-88's indeed were devastating when they could be
concentrated, concentration was the problem....that and effective defenses
by the US and Brits cancelled out a lot of classic divebombing
opportunities. Even higher performance (and smaller target) US A-36's ran
into trouble in Italy when diving against concentrated AA fire and the 88
had to contend also with aerial defenses in the western theaters it operated
in. The unfettered dive bombing the Ju-87 got to do early in the war was
fast disappearing by the time the 88 became available in numbers.
Nobody even wanted dive bombers by mid-1943 in the European theater.
However, they were successful in Russia in the first couple of
years...when they could be concentrated of course.
Just my opinion of course.
Al
It was my understanding that the Ju-88 "Wonder Bomber" did in fact
pass its dive-bombing requirement, though you're correct that it was
mostly used as a level bomber.
From Jane's I deduce that most models of the 88 had dive brakes and
automatic pull-out device.
Lately I've been reading some Vietnam books and was interested to see
to what extent the USAF had reverted to dive-bombing in the 1960s, as
the safest way to put ordnance onto sites well-defended by ack-ack and
SAMs.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: cub06h AT eudoramail.com)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
> Germany worked on the idea of making large bombers like the Ju-88
> divebombers. Could this have worked if they were able to slow down the
> dive speed to say 200 kts?
Ju-88 was certified as dive bomber and had both structural capability
and dive brakes for that, and it was used when needed in that role.
Here in Finland Ju-88s were not used in dive bombing role, though. After
operational testing it was decided that the vertical bombing is too
risky. Large aircraft diving in straight line, with dive brakes slowing
its descent, was too good target for anti aircraft guns.
I can't remember whether the dive brakes were removed or not, but
testing showed that diving in shallower angle brought practically
identical results with much reduced risk. Shallower angle meant that the
plane could dive in much higher speeds and it was much harder target
for the anti aircraft weapons.
The very advanced, mechanical computer dive bomb sight brought
practically very guaranteed results. The computer constantly calculated
the bomb impact point and the pilot only needed to keep the target in
the Stuvi bombsight and press bomb release button when impact point
reached target.
Junkers 88 pilot, Martti Uotinen, told in his lecture recently that if
he kept target in the bombsight it was always guaranteed hit.
Notice that the bombsight and automatic pilot system automatically
pulled the aircraft out of dive after releasing bombs.
See:
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_operations_divebombing.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_flowchart_divebombing.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_computer_principle.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_mech_computer_1943-44.tif
On the other end, a Finnish fighter pilot I interviewed few months ago
described an event where he was escorting the Junkerses striking against
Soviet invasion fleet. He, mr. Antti Tani, a 20+ victory ace, told that
he could see from the bomber diving that now that's good dive and how he
saw "those bombs are going to hit" - and a 1000 kg bomb hit squarely in
middle of Soviet cargo ship, throwing debris, weapons, supplies,
soldiers - and limbs, human parts - high into the air.... The ship had
been crammed full of soldiers...
jok> Germany worked on the idea of making large bombers like the Ju-88
> divebombers. Could this have worked if they were able to slow down the
> dive speed to say 200 kts?
Ju-88 was certified as dive bomber and had both structural capability
and dive brakes for that, and it was used when needed in that role.
Here in Finland Ju-88s were not used in dive bombing role, though. After
operational testing it was decided that the vertical bombing is too
risky. Large aircraft diving in straight line, with dive brakes slowing
its descent, was too good target for anti aircraft guns.
I can't remember whether the dive brakes were removed or not, but
testing showed that diving in shallower angle brought practically
identical results with much reduced risk. Shallower angle meant that the
plane could dive in much higher speeds and it was much harder target
for the anti aircraft weapons.
The very advanced, mechanical computer dive bomb sight brought
practically very guaranteed results. The computer constantly calculated
the bomb impact point and the pilot only needed to keep the target in
the Stuvi bombsight and press bomb release button when impact point
reached target.
Junkers 88 pilot, Martti Uotinen, told in his lecture recently that if
he kept target in the bombsight it was always guaranteed hit.
Notice that the bombsight and automatic pilot system automatically
pulled the aircraft out of dive after releasing bombs.
See:
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_operations_divebombing.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_flowchart_divebombing.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_computer_principle.tif
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_mech_computer_1943-44.tif
On the other end, a Finnish fighter pilot I interviewed few months ago
described an event where he was escorting the Junkerses striking against
Soviet invasion fleet. He, mr. Antti Tani, a 20+ victory ace, told that
he could see from the bomber diving that now that's good dive and how he
saw "those bombs are going to hit" - and a 1000 kg bomb hit squarely in
middle of Soviet cargo ship, throwing debris, weapons, supplies,
soldiers - and limbs, human parts - high into the air.... The ship had
been crammed full of soldiers...
jok
That wasn't an unusual idea back then. The Avro Manchester was built to
a specification that included dive bombing. On a few occasions with 617
Squadron, Lancasters marked targets by 'dive-bombing' them (later
replaced by Mosquitos and then a Mustang).
--
John
Preston, Lancs, UK.
From the Ju 87D model onward, the plane got considerably tougher with
added armour etc. Units which changed from the Ju 87 to the armoured
Fw 190 fighter-bomber reportedly suffered increased losses, despite
the air-cooled engine.
Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/`
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The 234 had a glide bombsite to, as well as an advanced level bomb sight.
While the ju88 is certainly capable of dive bombing in AH, it has dive breaks. The ability to deliver bombs accurrately in a shallow dive has been raised before.
That wasn't an unusual idea back then. The Avro Manchester was built to
a specification that included dive bombing. On a few occasions with 617
Squadron, Lancasters marked targets by 'dive-bombing' them (later
replaced by Mosquitos and then a Mustang).
If its true that lancasters could dive bomb then this should put to rest the complaints that lancaster could not "dive bomb". I find hard to believe though.
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As Batz says, the Ju 88 HAS dive flaps. It's the best dive bomber in the game, capable of delivering 3,000 kilos in a single pass. That's 1,200 kilos more than the Ju 87! It is a very stable platform, and I prefer to make attacks in a near vertical dive. With minimal practice, you will find that 90%+ of your bombs will hit the target.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would use the Ju 88 any other way. You can do much more damage dive bombing with a single 88, than level bombing with a 3 plane formation.
Plus, it dogfights remarkably well. I've managed more kills than losses turnfighting after a bomb run.
Drop the big stuff on a hanger, then vulch using the twenty 50 kilo bombs. Drop a string of 4 on anything trying to take off, or pounce on anything that does while it's still low and slow.
You can have a great deal of fun with the Ju 88.
My regards,
Widewing