Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on February 02, 2003, 02:29:42 AM
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I have been using field guns to wack tigers at all ranges even beyond Icon range from all angles, Tonight in the CT I pluged another at 1.7 or so from the front no less. Is it me or does this strike anyone else as odd....
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Obviously one of your 37 mm rounds went right down the gun barrel and detonated an 88 mm shell.
I still don't know why people bother with the GVs in this game.
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here's the film. (http://taenia.homestead.com/files/film259.zip)
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There is no reason for that to be happening, no excuses whatsover even if there was a ridiculous lag difertential of well over 1000 yards. Something is wrong.
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in RL 37 mm gun cant kill Tiger, only make scraches on the armour
50mm too, 76 mm have big problem and tiger can survive several hits..
They can immobilise Tiger only if destroy secound row of whels.
ramzey
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I killed a Panther once in Combat Mission with an M8. :)
(It sure wasn't at 1700 yards, more like 17 yards)
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Originally posted by ramzey
in RL 37 mm gun cant kill Tiger, only make scraches on the armour
50mm too, 76 mm have big problem and tiger can survive several hits..
They can immobilise Tiger only if destroy secound row of whels.
It's called getting the 'golden BB'. There are a number of points on the Tiger where a good -- or lucky -- shot can blow past the armor much easier. From the front, hitting either the driver's vision slit or the gunner's sight ports will work. It's not a high-probability shot, but it's possible.
The first Tiger tank destroyed by the Western Allies was knocked out by a mere 57mm antitank gun -- a UK 6 Pounder at work. It dig take several shots, but the first complete penetration was at a range of 600 yards, at an angle of impact of 30 degrees from normal, through homogeneous armor 82-mm (approximately 3-1/2 inches) thick. Ammunition used was the 57mm AP semi AP solid shot.
The ability to destroy a Tiger I from other than the front is described in a wartime report from the 7th Armored Division while in Belgium in December of 1944:
While northern and eastern flanks had been heavily engaged, the northeastern section had been rather quiet. The only excitement there had been was when an M8 armored car from "E" Troop destroyed a Tiger tank. The armored car had been in a concealed position at right angles to run along a trail in front of the MLR. As the tank passed the armored car, the M8 slipped out of position and started up the trail behind the Tiger, accelerating in an attempt to close. At the same moment the German tank commander saw the M8, and started traversing his gun to bear on the armored car. It was a race between the Americans who were attempting to close so that their puny 37-mm would be effective in the Tiger’s "Achilles heel" (its thin rear armor), and the Germans who were desperately striving to bring their "88" to bear … Suddenly, the M8 had closed to 25 yards, and quickly pumped in 3 rounds… the lumbering Tiger stopped, shuddered; there was a muffled explosion, followed by flames which bellowed out of the turret and engine ports, after which the armored car returned to its position.
This also illustrates a problem with the current AH damage model in that you can pump round after round of 75mm AP into the rear of a Tiger (in my case, ten rounds) without doing anything more than smoking the engine.
There is also one case where an M5A1 light tank caught a King Tiger driving through a ravine and pumped five rounds of 37mm into its rear deck and started an engine fire, causing the tank crew to bail.
Or, if you want really ignominious, the Russians captured their first Tiger with an infantry unit:
In Romanovsky’s [A Soviet Lieutenant General] version published for the first time in Operatsiya Iskra (Spark), Lenizdat 1973 and reprinted in Leningrad Does Not Surrender by N. Kislitsyn and V. Zubakov, Progress, 1989: "I was informed that an unusual enemy tank was moving through the corridor. Our light guns fired at it, but even direct hits could not stop the heavy, obviously strongly armoured vehicle. The German tank was heading for Schusselburg and at the time our 18th Infantry Division was approaching the road. The tank came under heavy direct fire. The shells did not cause dameage, but the driver, evidently taking fright, turned off the road and tried to get away towards Sinyavino. As it turned, the tank got stuck in a peat bog."
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lately ive had la5's and hurricanes pop my panzer4's. which is just stupid as well. that top armor is thin, but that is just stupid.
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None of those say a 37mm could kill a Tiger at 1700 yards. That cannont happend. Even if it did hit the drivers vision slit for example there is a thick piece of armor glass right there and the slit is very small - nothing would happend. Even if it hit the twin sight reticles it wouldnt do much since they are very small and again it wouldnt matter too much.
No excuses for this, none- gotta be a bug or something in the armor.
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(http://www.battlefield.ru/library/archives/weapons/pics/penetration2.gif)
from
here (http://www.battlefield.ru/library/archives/weapons/weapons6.html)
76 mm cannon range to pierce tiger armour
- Shermana - to destroy tiger , range ca. 520 m
- T-34 - ca .800 m
- T-34/85 - to destroy tiger, range ca 1 km, anyway one example: when 8 T-34/85 attack loonly Tiger in estern prussia . From range ca.800 m none of them pierce tiger armour!!!
Another example in march 1943 one of Tigers by accident drive to russian minefield. Was attack there by russian anti tank altillery.
Tiger survive after:
- 227 hits from 14,5 mm anti tank bazooka
- 14 hits from 45 mm anti-tank gun
- 6 hits from T-34 (76mm)
From other side.
Few 12mm hits from aircrat to engine bay can burn engine /weeknest part of tiger/
Every rockets hit to engine bay /from top side/ destroy engine.
Best way to immobilise Tiger was hit drive whells from side.
Secound row of whels was easy to damage by any aircraft fire /12,mm and 20 mm/
read more http://www.iremember.ru/index_e.htm
great source
http://www.battlefield.ru/
ramzey
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also it should be noted the Flak panzers 37mm no longer contains AP shot. I think HT said it was entirely HE now and should not penetrate armour.
Ive also seen this problem lately. Just yesterday i was shooting at panzers and tigers in a panzerIV.
I scored 3 hits on a panzer4 from around 2800 yards which seemed to do nothing.He fired and his first hit i exploded.
After reupping i had another fight in which again i hit 2 times to no effect but I died to one shot.
reupping again i seemed to be more lucky. 2 hits at long range 3600 yards or so I killed a panzer, 3 hits on another he exploded. I fired at a third and after 4(!!) hits he was unharmed.He was firing at me too and finally a ping and i explode.
What i cant stand at the moment is dieing to the very first hit i recieve 99% of the time whilst having to hit the enemy at least twice to even damage them. Im getting very tired of it even though i really like the idea of ground vehicles.Its a real shame but this sort of behaviour in the model is spoiling the fun for me.:(
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While we are on that subject - agree there is a problem with the damage model. I have put 30+ rounds of AP into the rear of a Tiger at point blank range trying to blow him up and he just managed to roll away from me.
I also hit an M3 Half Track with 4 AP shells from the Panzer IV and it took off like a "Scalded Cat!" Like it didn't even have a scratch from the hits.
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Originally posted by Andijg
I also hit an M3 Half Track with 4 AP shells from the Panzer IV and it took off like a "Scalded Cat!" Like it didn't even have a scratch from the hits.
From the effects I've had shooting at them with AP, you've pretty much got to hit the engine compartment to reliably whack an M3; if you hit the passenger compartment, it'll just blow through (another failure in the damage model -- a 75mm or 88mm AP round flying through the rear compartment of an M3 loaded with supplies or troops is going to damage the payload even if it doesn't do more than leave entry and exit holes in the hull).
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I wounder how much of this is lag, conection , related, I know In ww2 online it can be a big issue. I have had very similar experances to what Andi and Hazed have illuded to, just this morning I pluged an M8 in the rear with a 88 round at close range and he just kept going! I have alos seen the several hits from an 88 to kill a Panzer IV thing as well, is this realted to my conection?
I have also begain to wounder if their is not just some sort of randominzer tied to hit's, sometimes one hit from my Tiger on another from the Front will kill them other times several are required, under the same circumstances, range angle ect.
Recently we had another "Slot" set up in the CT and I had the pleashure of dealing with the LVTA4 issue again, tons of hits mostly resulting in richoets aganst other LVT's, since the LVT's were enabled to represent light armor in this set up for both sides their were lots of heaed to heaed matches involving them, and many preplexed players woundering why several Hit sprites(not richoets) were doing nothing at all in the way of damage, generaly these battles were resolved by closing the range and using the 50cal to kill the bad guy, in fact I never managed a Kill aganst another LVT using the 75mm gun alone, the whole week.
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Their may be a vary obvious reasion that the filed guns are Tiger killer's, one that was not lost on me when I wrote this thread, and one that worked to my advantage when I created a 1944 set up in the CT whear the Germans had Tigers and the Western Alies did not. The advantage was that it allowed the US a way to kill Tigers, other than Side shots from Panzer IV's, while on the ground, and provide a means by withch play balance could be acheaved to a certain degree while maintaing some Historical imershion.
Side Shots from Panzer IV's are very effective aganst he Tigers at present in the Game, The tigers side hull(not superstructure) armor is only like 60mm thick.
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How does a 3.7cm AA gun kill a Tiger from the Front ?
I don't know, lets ask Mr. Owl!
Mr. Owl how many hits does it take to get the center of a tiger tank?
Mr. Owl: I don't know lets see, a one, a twooo, a thrreeee...
well some will know the rest of the story :)
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I also hit an M3 Half Track with 4 AP shells from the Panzer IV and it took off like a "Scalded Cat!" Like it didn't even have a scratch from the hits.
Don't use AP rounds on halftracks, use HE. One HE round from a Tiger put anywhere near an m3 (within a carlength or so) will destroy it.
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Shiva I must have spent maybe a dozen M16s' loads of 50 cal and one load of Pz-75mm, M8-37, LVT-whatever trying to pass rounds into the front view slits of the Panzer, and there was no damage noted by said Pz driver.
I don't see Tiger front armor and field aaa penetration curve on ramzey's graph.
and yeah, it'd be nice to get cargo added to damage list.
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u dont see? so why u take voice :D :D
once again u alll try to proof then DM on gv's in AH is not perfect
booooooooooooring:D :D :D
guys give up
ramzey
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because ramzey is supposed to have the answer to such an easy question.
give up because AHBB too thick rather.
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big sorry my bad, "AAA"
answer is simple, allmost all AAA guns /from barrel 2 cm/ was loaded only fragmentation granade /shels/.
AP ammno was usless against aircrafts, and not many AAA guns was used against tanks.
ramzey
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thank you.
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Originally posted by ramzey
big sorry my bad, "AAA"
answer is simple, allmost all AAA guns /from barrel 2 cm/ was loaded only fragmentation granade /shels/.
AP ammno was usless against aircrafts, and not many AAA guns was used against tanks.
ramzey
HT put Mannable AA guna on the field for AA defence, but also there had been requests for anti GV field guns. so im betting
HT mad the mannable AAs very good vs GVs.
the mannable AAs are 37mm AP/HE
whels
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"I saw one of the new Tiger tanks at a range of around 1000 yards & fired seven times. I saw each round bounce off the front & side armour. The Tiger traversed it's gun & blew off our left track killing the driver."
British Matilda tank commander Tunisia 1943
"Our column engaged three Panzer 6 tanks at a ranges of between 200 - 800 yards. We stopped one of the Tigers by sustained fire on its tracks. This was after repeated shots against the upper armour which had no effect even at short range. The Tigers destroyed 8 of our M4 tanks & we were forced to retreat., even the disabled enemy tank was still firing at us as we retreated..... "
American armoured regiment commanders report North Africa 1943
" I attacked a Panzer mk 6 at a range of 400 yards. I fired 8 - 10 times with armour piercing shells at the tanks side & turret. Every shot simply bounced off & the Tiger escaped after destroying both my flank tanks"
Russian tank commanders report 1943
" A panzer mk 6 which the enemy has called Tiger appeared near our position. Our battery fired against it using Anti Tank rounds. None of the rounds were effective & after being joined by another two tanks the enemy destroyed our position & we were forced to retreat..."
Russian Anti-tank battery commanders report 1944
" A tiger tank appeared from out of a wood firing on the move. It had already destroyed 6 of my T-34 tanks at ranges of between 200 - 600 meters. We fired bteween 20- 30 AP shells all of which simply bounced off the thick armour. We had to call in air support to fend the tank off which retreted back into the wood & got away "
Soviet tank crewman's report preblinka 1944
" Our commanders have decided on a new tactic. If the Germans send a Tiger tank we will send out 8 shermans to meet it & we expect to lose 7 of them "
British " optimism" Normandy 1944
" Our new Josef Stalin tanks seem to be getting the better of the German Tiger class. However I will not send my T-34 tanks into the battlefield without at least two Josef Stalins in case the Germans deploy Tiger tanks..... "
Russian Guards Commanders statement 1944. The commander was subsequently shot for cowardice!
" I drove my sherman column directly at a hidden Tiger tank near Beauville. The Tiger tank destroyed 7 of my company before it retreated. We fired constantly at the Tigers front armour with AP & HEAT rounds at ranges as short as 100 yards. None of our rounds penetrated the thick front armour... "
British Armoured Battalion Captain's report Normandy 1944
" Our scouts reported an enemy column consisting of a single Panzer mk6 Tiger & two Panzer 4 tanks moving Northwest. Our commander decided to pull back & discuss tactics. It was agreed to call in air support to deal with the threat rather than risk losing any of our own tanks.... "
British Churchill Crewmans report Normandy 1944
" We sighted two Tiger tanks of the Das Reich division at a range of 600 yards. We fired 4 shells which all bounced off. The Tigers subsequently turned around & headed straight for us. We pulled back after losing 6 shermans. One of our Firefly tanks managed to score a direct hit on the left flank of one of the Tigers before it too was destroyed by the surviving Tiger. We saw the crew escape from the crippled Tiger & climb onto it's comrade before the tank retreated. There were no survivors from our tanks which simply burst into flames......"
Canadian M4 Crewman's report Normandy 1944
" Our company engaged three Tiger tanks which were moving towards our right flank. We fired 12 AP rounds at the Tigers side armour at ranges of 100 - 600 yards. apart from the the removal of the rippled paste coveing no significant damage was done to the enemy tanks. We lost 4 shermans & a number of halftracks before the Tigers escaped. I identified one of the attacking vehicles as a Liebestandarte Panzer division number 331...."
British Sherman Crewman's report Normandy 1944
"We sighted a column of enemy armour consisting of 2 Tigers, a Panther & 2 Panzer 4 tanks. We called for armour support which arrived in the form of around 20 Firefly tanks. They manged to destroy the panther & one of the Panzer 4 tanks before the 2 Tiger tanks began to pick them off. We lost 6 firefly tanks in as many minutes before the Germans retreated. We provided fire support using heavy machine guns, mortars & PIAT rounds all of which were ineffective..."
British Infantry commanders report Normandy 1944
"I saw 4 tigers at around 1800 yards & fired upon them. I fired 15 shots using Armour Peircing ammunition & hit their right sides they all bounced off....."
British Sherman commanders report Normandy 1944
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Here is another one I found recently:
A panzer mk 6 Tiger appeared near our position. Our battery fired against it starting from 2000meters. All of the rounds were immediatley effective and the enemy was destroyed.
Commander A.H. roadkillskov - 391st Guards light 37mm AAA battalion, east front 1944.
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once i drove a panzer right up to a tiger...after blasting at 1 track for a while with ap the track finally went up then i rolled around to the other side (having already taken out its guns) i shot it a few times with the turret mg...track goes up...seems that turret mg can sometimes do more damage than a ap round...
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I was dueling with a PIV at over 28(on the range marker in the sight) and I hit him 3 times, no aparent effect, He fired 3 shels at once!(lag aparently) and one hit and it killed my Tiger instantly, I was front on to him, man I was pissed.