Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on February 02, 2003, 11:12:23 PM
-
Can you build a plane? Say a Piper Cub. Tube steel, welded, cables and bellcranks, cloth covering, engine, tanks, wiring.. etc.
Probably. If somebody had the main components kickin around it would be a snap. I mean, an aircraft engine is not something most of us can fabricate outta the garage, so lets assume you'll need some skilled infrastuture to feed you need for machined parts.
Could you build it and fly it.. without knowing the physics?
Doubtful. But all those niggling little details of the physics and such could be cured with a lil education and some help from the infrastructure.
Ok.. so we can build a plane. Maybe even fly it.
Can you build a space shuttle?
Nope.
Ok, can your town, with it's diverse population and massive skill sets build a space shuttle?
Nope.
Hmmm... can your state build a shuttle?
Nope. Not without a whole lotta specilzed expensive help from someplace else..
The Point?
It takes just about all the industrial and technical expertiese possesed by this nation to loft a Shuttle.. and Bush's 500 million dollar increase for the space program wouldn't pay for one freakin launch cycle.
The Space Progam is about the only truly decent thing this nation has accomplished on a world scale in the last 50 years. Be a shame to let it peter out.. but to get the program re-funded on a scale necessary to develop a new space plane will take a nation of taxpayers demanding that it happen.
Write your congressman.. get the ball rolling. The politicans won't act unless we push.
Push hard.
-
We need some some scrappy commies to fight it out with again, I'm hoping China is the ticket as they are close to a manned flight.
-
The value of one B-2 Spirit and its yearly manteinance cost would be a godsend to NASA.
But we have a fleet of B-2's and NASA is hanging on a thread.
I really hope China is serious about a manned flight to Mars. That alone could jumpstart the Space Program.
What a sad state of affairs.
-
The last thing we need is two super-powers trying to achieve the same thing, but independently. It would be a complete waste of effort and resources.
It's now time to join forces and cooperate.
-
The X-33 project was denied funds in 2001. How about injecting some cash there?
(http://www.hvcn.org/info/a2s2/lockmartin.jpg)
The ESA was collaborating as well...
Daniel
-
Some information:
X-33 was the sub-scale prototype version of the Single Stage to Orbit Venture Star. It was wedge shaped X-33. It was developed jointly between NASA and Lockheed Martin Skunk Works of Palmdale, California. X-33 was cancelled in 2001.
(http://members.lycos.co.uk/spaceprojects/spaceplanes/x-33.gif)
The X-33 was designed to take off vertically like a rocket, reaching an altitude of up to 60 miles and speeds faster than Mach 13 (13 times the speed of sound), and landing horizontally like an airplane. The X-33 was to be launched at Edwards Air Force Base, Edwards, California.
The X-33 design was chosen in the X-33 competion in 1986. The competitors were the DC-X Vertical take-off and Vertical landing vehicle and Rockwell X-33. Lockheed Martin's version won the competion. In hindsight, perhaps two competing vehicles should have been built.
Specifications:
Length 69 ft
Width 77 ft
Take-off weight 285,000 lbs
Fuel LH2/LO2
Fuel weight 210,000 lbs
Main Propulsion (2) J-2S Linear Aerospikes
Take-off Thrust 410,000 lbs
Maximum Speed Mach 13+
The X-33s was to use:
Linear aerospike rocket engines : The novel, highly efficient design had undergone numerous component-level tests. The first aerospike test engine had completed 14 planned hot fire tests. It accumulated more than 1,460 seconds of total operating time, including a demonstration of the ability to vary the thrust from top to bottom that will be used to steer the X-33. This engine was developed at a fraction of the cost of normal standard efforts.
Thermal Protection System (TPS) certification: The rugged, metallic thermal-protection system panels designed for the X-33 had passed an intensive test series that included sessions in high-speed, high-temperature tests in laboratories, wind tunnels and NASA research aircraft to duplicate flight conditions. Industry partner BF Goodrich had delivered more than 95 percent of the X-33's TPS panels. NASA expected the panels could reduce maintenance time and costs associated with more fragile thermal tile systems. The panels also made up the lower surfaces of the rocket plane's aerodynamic structural shell, resulting in significant weight savings over traditional thermal systems while being more durable and waterproof.
Internal Structures: Lightweight graphite composite trusses and supports that serve as the backbone of the X-33's aeroshell have been assembled. They also support the three large propellant tanks that comprise most of its interior. The X-33 is pioneering extensive use of composite materials for RLVs.
Components: The X-33 was based on a lifting body shape. The lightweight components and fuel tanks were built to conform to the vehicle's outer shape.
X-33 Status
Construction of the X-33 was more than 85 percent complete, with the liquid oxygen tank, avionics bay, flight umbilicals, reaction control system thruster controller and landing gear installed. However, the X-33 was cancelled in 2001.
-
Hangtime: It takes just about all the industrial and technical expertiese possesed by this nation to loft a Shuttle.. and Bush's 500 million dollar increase for the space program wouldn't pay for one freakin launch cycle.
So maybe we should just wait untill the technology advances to that level where it's more feasable. There was a time when the resources of state were needed to build a Piper Cub. I bet a moon mission would have been much cheaper and safer now than in 1960 - with all the deveoplments in computers and materials.
miko
-
Here's the link (http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html ) to write your congressperson or senator:
-
Originally posted by miko2d
I bet a moon mission would have been much cheaper and safer now than in 1960 - with all the deveoplments in computers and materials.
miko
Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.
Just walk into your kitchen, 60% of the technology in ones kitchen can be traced back to some sort of rocket or space technology...
digging for that article that shows you why...
-
Originally posted by Dowding
The last thing we need is two super-powers trying to achieve the same thing, but independently. It would be a complete waste of effort and resources.
It's now time to join forces and cooperate.
Piss on that
-
AKIron: Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.
Oh, yes - we all know that the government is the best source for new ideas and research. Look how much advancements they have in Russia and North Korea! :rolleyes:
There was plenty of state research in communist countries - and they had the advantage that most capable people went into research since there were not business or commertial opportunities to distract them.
Perhaps we would have more advancement if state was not in the business of science. A huge boom in research and exploitation of new ideas occured in US when the congress released patents produced on government contracs back to the research labs, mostly in colleges, that created them. Hundreds of bright scientists immediately set up commertial ventures to exploit the breakthroughs on which the government was sitting for years without any benefit.
If the state materials research was so good, why would not government just make a huge project out of it rather than go the roundabout route of moon expedition?
It's the same as "war and devastation" is beneficial to economy because we can build newer factories in place of the obsolete ones. If an enemy bombings are so great, certainly we could bomb our own installations even better.
The indispencability of government in research is just a socialist propaganda. We are told what we owe to the government but not often reminded what is done besides the government (most of the research) and even less what never happened because of the resources diverted by the government.
miko
-
Miko, don't give yourself a stroke. ;) I thought you were saying we should have waited on the moon landing until the technology was sufficiently advanced to make it safer and more of a sure thing. I was only saying that if we had done that the progress we have made might not exist today.
Nowhere did I indicate that only government should be allowed to pioneer space travel. In fact, commercial industry does participate both in cooperation with the government and on their own. It isn't like the US government is suppressing inovation by controlling and repressing private industry in this area.
-
Piss on that
Tell me, does such breath-taking wisdom come with age?
Stand aside, cooperation between the various agencies is already happening.
-
advance's in science today only come from government funded research labs. Corporations only care about the bottom line not the advacement of the human race. if left up to them we would still be in the 19th century slaves to the factorys we work in.
hell the internet was developed by the army first. The largest from of socialism in this country btw.
-
The last thing we need is two super-powers trying to achieve the same thing, but independently. It would be a complete waste of effort and resources.
Don't forget to say hello to chairman Mao when you pack-up and head out for China to spread the 'world according to dowding doctrine.'
Btw how many chinese websites are you hitting promoting your opinions of what super powers should do? Or is AH your only soap box?
-
if the government wants to have a co-op thing going they should partner up with japan way before anyone else.
-
Originally posted by Frogm4n
if the government wants to have a co-op thing going they should partner up with japan way before anyone else.
Japan is lagging behind in the space sector. Joint Ventures are beneficial with Russia and Europe, since Russia has the know-how in energy generation and human sciences in space, and Europe has right now the most powerful and reliable launcher available.
There have been talks between NASA and ESA in order to have Ariane carry parts of the ISS to orbit.
The problem is that budget is laughable... even with the cuts, the European Space Agency has 1/6th of NASA's budget, and Russia... well they are looking for more tourists.
I guess space is for idealists... until we find oil under the surface of Mars or something.
Daniel
-
hey miko
in american the goverment employees cant be taken out and shot on a whim by anyone.
you will find this makes a huge difference in creativity.
-
Oh, yes - we all know that the government is the best source for new ideas and research. Look how much advancements they have in Russia and North Korea!
Big difference here miko, is that while most research may be State funded either directly or indirectly, but it is still done mostly by the private sector.
-
AKIron: Nowhere did I indicate that only government should be allowed to pioneer space travel. In fact, commercial industry does participate both in cooperation with the government and on their own. It isn't like the US government is suppressing inovation by controlling and repressing private industry in this area.
There is quite a lot of literature on how government diversion of resources - financial and intellectual - into command-based state research hurts the scientific and technological progress.
State should concentrate on specific goals - like putting weapons or surveilance into space by most efficient methods and leave the rest to private industry.
May be a even a moon mission made sense in 1960s despite undeveloped technology. There were talks of putting weapons on the moon quckly but it might have been a smokescreen.
Look at it this way - if a significant group of people thinks some research is desirable, they can alwys form a private foundation (being more intelligent/educated/affluent than average joe enyway) and produce research and then market the results to the rest of the people. The current approach is that general opoulation is dumb and ignorant to worry about space, but we make them pay for it anyway because we know better... We may get few more gadgets a few years earlier than otherwise but then how would we differ from the non-democratic regimes we oppose?
midnight Target: Big difference here miko, is that while most research may be State funded either directly or indirectly, but it is still done mostly by the private sector.
Whoever pays the piper...
There is a huge difference - in private business people take the risks and either fail or succeed with everyone enjoying the results of their success eventually. So all opportuniteis and approaches are tried. Competition is an engine of discovery.
But a government-sponsored business is not paid to fail - only succeed. A politician cannot be associated with a failing project. So risks are cut drastically and failures are disguised or presented as success because admitting them would cost political capital, funding, etc, not just money risked by private venture capitalists.
In government research, like any other business, you must have right representation of minorities, women, etc. You cannot use people of questionable character, especially if their views are not PC.
Just look at the majority of technological/commertial geniuses to whom we owe the current state of development - they mostly were such scoundrels, rasists, crooks and otherwise unpleasant persons - even admitted communists - that no one would have a chance to be contracted by the government now!
You must score points on political issues like diversity or environment (see an article in my thread on how environmental considerations might have compromised Columbia's safety).
Once you move from competition to command methods, it all the same whether you are in free or totalitarian country.
miko
-
This is the O-club, Rockstar. People are in the habit of expressing their opinions. Get used to it.
Besides which, this isn't 'an American board'. It's not owned by the US government, but I private company.
-
Frogm4n: advance's in science today only come from government funded research labs. Corporations only care about the bottom line not the advacement of the human race. if left up to them we would still be in the 19th century slaves to the factorys we work in.
hell the internet was developed by the army first. The largest from of socialism in this country btw.
That's complete BS - unless you are proposing to abandon democracy.
If majority of people want to develop space, they can do so without government. If majority do not want to develop space, doing so at their expence against their wishes is contrary to democracy principles.
The same evil people who only care about their money while working for corporations, somehow become selfless angels while voting for government policies, right?
You are full of BS. It's not some good enlightened totalitarian dictator who made bad americans live more consiencious lives since 19th century - it's the same americans who you are accusing of being selfish and hidebound.
Internet was nothing compared to the telephone, telegraph, transatlantic cable, redio and TV - and all those were developed privately.
Internet arose and became usefull as soon as privately-produced computers and com. equipment became cost-efficient. Army did not install internet connections in every house and linking two devices with a wire certainly was not an army's invention. Most of internet's traffic and revanue comes from pornography. Is that an army invention too?
Army used radios in the WWI. That does not mean we owe it our catellite-based cellphones now. Private business did that.
miko
-
Originally posted by Dowding
This is the O-club, Rockstar. People are in the habit of expressing their opinions. Get used to it.
Besides which, this isn't 'an American board'. It's not owned by the US government, but I private company.
Dowding, America isn't a government, it's a nation. The private company that owns this board is American and that makes the board American. Of course in America we do value free speech and not just that of our citizens.
-
Apart from the argument over semantics, what exactly is your point?
-
Not just semantics, you were making a point to Rockstar about this not being an American board. Seems to me you are equating our government with our country. I believe you know the difference, but I'm not sure what your point was.
-
You are full of BS. It's not some good enlightened totalitarian dictator who made bad americans live more consiencious lives since 19th century - it's the same americans who you are accusing of being selfish and hidebound
If the government did not step in the robberbarons of the 19th century would have dragged this country down the drain.
You still sidestep on the biggest pork barrel socialist program this country has to offer. the millitary. why are we building a fighter (the f-22) that was made to intercept and destroy a russian fighter that will not even be made. This thing cost 200million a pop and we want upwards of 1000 of these? You talk about how the NASA is full of wastefull spending , but it just a drop in the bucket compared to the cash all the socialist feed defence contrators.
oh and btw i think more then 50 percent of americans want the space program to continue so im not to worried about that.
-
Hey your opinion is fine and never had a problem of you expressing it here, what with freedom of speech and all that . What I was wondering is how far do you take your opinion, just to the U.S.? Or did offer your world according to dowding space doctrine to that other super power you mentioned too?
Ya know if you haven't then you really should, I bet they'd be just as interested in as we are.
express away mate it's your board too
-
Did you register under an alias to make your point? Registered yesterday and 2 out 3 posts have been aimed at me. Something a little fishy there.
Either way, Chinese isn't my strong point. I do speak some French, and very little German and Spanish however. Not enough to express myself with any kind of clarity, though. Although I would be great at ordering dinner.
-
Frogm4n: If the government did not step in the robberbarons of the 19th century would have dragged this country down the drain.
Since you have not gane a specific example, I cannot counter it, but tThat is just not true.
It stepped in to manage and run the economy rather than prevent the robber barons from violating other people's property rights. And wherever it sstepped in, it cooperated with robber barons instead of limiting them. They may have been more carefull with what they were doing if army did not slaughter indians to clear the way for them. Check the army Corps of Engineers projects. Who ruined the Florida Everglades?
You still sidestep on the biggest pork barrel socialist program this country has to offer. the millitary. why are we building a fighter (the f-22) that was made to intercept and destroy a russian fighter that will not even be made. This thing cost 200million a pop and we want upwards of 1000 of these?
The military is the only valid concern for government besides protecting people's lives property rights.
The rationality of any specific military expence is always open to discussion. What the heck do I know about F22?
How about tanks? Why do we need so many of them? To still fight russians?
What about aircraft carriers? Anyone believes an aircraft carrier can survive a conflict with anyone other than a backward african country?
Antiship missles fly at few feet at mach 2 or higher and huge ships cannot duck. Those missles cost very little and their effectiveness was great decades ago. A missle can hit a plane, let alone a lumbering ship. Alternatively, a nuclead device detonated under water would sink all ships in the area.
Aircraft carriers today are battleship of the WWII - only usefull to bombard helpless civilians and intimidate third-world countries - as ther recent tactical games amply demonstrated
But the military is a thing we cannot possibly privatise. Everything else we can.
oh and btw i think more then 50 percent of americans want the space program to continue.
Oh, great. Why don't we then fund it privately. There are plenty of options there not explored dure to lack of funding. Maybe people are not doing that exactly because they think it is covered by NASA?
What is so special about government that a an agency controlled by it would do better than the same people working for several competing private companies? The worst we would get is several cities inspace and lunar/martian colonies for the same money.
I think you are lying when you say you believe that "more then 50 percent of americans want the space program to continue". If you believed it, you would not insist government - the only organisation that wields coersion implement it. If someone does not want to fund NASA and does not pay that part of the taxes, he/she goes to jail. That's how your space program is implemented - by serf labor, not by free willing people.
miko
-
miko2d,
The space program is the single best optional investment the US government has even done. For every tax dollar put into it, something like ten dollars have been made by the private sector due to the technologies developed by the space program.
Very few government programs have a net gain effect on the economy. NASA is one of those rare programs that returns more to the economy than it costs.
-
That's nice. Even if that is true - a big "if", imagine how much better that would be if they did things the right way.
How much advance in aerodynamics/materials and control systems do we get flying shuttles with 30-year old technology? Where do those advances come from? Not from shuttle design anymore. Space experiments that could have been performed as well on conventional non-reusable ships?
It would probably be cheaper to ground shuttles and continue the same space work on disposables. Of course it would not look good politically for some people...
Again, I am not against space exploration. I would invest myself if an outfit with decent business plan was accepting partners.
http://www.spacefuture.com/vehicles/designs.shtml
miko
-
Right on the money, Karnak. Thanks.
That's how your space program is implemented - by serf labor, not by free willing people.
"your" space progam?? "serfs"??
Miko, you just poped up here on this board a few days ago with this wonderful whine:
"News from socialist New York".. I've looked at my property taxes bill. Remember how they've just raised NYC property tax by 18% rather than cut wastefull unneeded programs? Not only did my tax rate shot up by 20% (instead of 18), the assessed value of my house was increased by $235,000. The house was built three years ago and bought and asessed at market price. Since then New York got bombed, the economy tanked, the big firms are leaving, the jobs are lost by thousand, people flee upstate or to new jersey and the city bureaucrats believe that despite all that a house has increased in price by that much in a couple of years. I wish I could make them buy it at that ridiculous price...
So.. lemme see here, you've come to this country from Russia and done pretty good for yerself... not bad for a freakin "SERF".. but yer a lil annoyed that the GOVERNMENT has decidied to tax yer pissy lil half million dollar house... and some of that goes to OUR space program.
Pointing out that we are serfs, and that 'our' space program (and by direct infernce, not YOURS) is a waste of funds and lives sheds a whole new light on what others not unlike myself think of freeloaders like you.
You, sir, suck.
-
No. I said that the City arbitrarily assinged a value on my way-under half million dollar house - owned by a bank, btw, so it can pretend that the tax rates are low but still collect what it wants. Same trickery as your precious NASA - all promices and nothing but waste and overruns and and showmanship as a result.
Second, I came here from russia becasue I did not like not having choice. I'd like to live where I want, patronise whatever products I want, etc.
I would gladly invest into a space program - personally. I would not invest in some other programs that my taxes are wasted on. You all have similar preferences - half of the people are republicans and half are demcrats and all you are talking about here is how government misuses your money.
Besides, it's local government that taxes my house, so none of that will go towards your precious exploding shuttles.
I do not want to force christians to subcidise abortions or atheists to subcidise prayer in schools. I do not want anyone who does not want help africa or saudi arabia or israel do so by threat of government coercion. If people believe in a cause, they will donate/invest without force.
So stop the hypocricy. I have my preferences and you have yours. If you learned to believe that whatever the government does - whichever party - is exactly what you want, good for you.
You socialists always turn every political argument into discussion of personal greediness of an oppnent. You do not know how much I donate on causes I favor, so shup up.
In my view a person who works 1/2 of his/her time for some overlord's goals is a serf. You all claim that space program is so great and how everybody loves it, how come you want government to do it? Because nobody would spend money otehrwise?
Nobody needed government to build cars or telephone or penicillin or all other great things.
And do not start this crap about freeloading and not being an american. I work and I pay for everything with money I earn.
I chose this country while you are here by accident of birth.
If you were born anywhere else, with your suseptibility to brainwashing and blind support of anything government-imposed you would still be perfect US-hating subject of any other country. So your patriotism is not worth s#$t to me.
In you ignorance you do not see that this country is half way to the same socialism that existed in Soviet Union or Gernmany. It's not there yet but moving steadily.
But you do not have to bother. Your hate of the "wealthy" and disgust of free-market ways would surely make you fit very well in socialist society. Just learn the few mantras and you are all done.
BTW - the space program is certainly not mine and probably not yours - unless you have some input into it which I surely do not.
miko
-
ahhhh.... I have hit the button.
Wow, miko, yah went off just like the shuttle. ;)
A few items.. we're very much alike, you and I.. over the past couple of years I've gotten a pretty good feeling for where your heads at.. and I like the slant your background brings to most discussions. I like learning new things.. and enjoy immensely a good frying in a flame war.. especially when it's deserved. :D
No. I said that the City arbitrarily assinged a value on my way-under half million dollar house - owned by a bank, btw, so it can pretend that the tax rates are low but still collect what it wants.
Ain't having a choice grand?? Sell it. Nobodys holding a pistol to yer head.. you think yer being screwed on taxes?? Well, having a free lifestyle in a city with things like streets, sewage treatment plants, police forces, emergency services and such costs money. Civilization is expensive. Here in America we pay for those things and others like the space program, the military and such with guess what.. Taxes. The American Way. Pay up, or sell out and leave. Nice to have a choice. Sure you can squeak about it.. thats the American Way too. And the less prosperous amongst us look at guys in your situation and laff in your face when you squeak about it. "Awww.. ain't it tough being affluent?? LOL!" This is also the American Way.
Second, I came here from russia becasue I did not like not having choice. I'd like to live where I want, patronise whatever products I want, etc.
So.. rather than stay in your own country and help it pull itself up into the 20th century you opted for the easy route.. you came here, where everything is just soooo much nicer. Can't say as I blame yah... but my friend, please understand that while I might be an American by 'accident of birth' my claim to my fair share of this nations horn of plenty was come by far more honestly than yours. My family spilled blood to help make this nation and prserve it, and has never been shy about serving when duty calls.
You socialists always turn every political argument into discussion of personal greediness of an oppnent. You do not know how much I donate on causes I favor, so shup up.
Wow.. Damn.. now I'm an official socalist!! LOL! Maybe I should get that added to my resume!! Now if I could just get Snoop Dog to call me a homie....
And I'd just love to hear about the causes you donate money too. Hehehhehhehe
In my view a person who works 1/2 of his/her time for some overlord's goals is a serf. You all claim that space program is so great and how everybody loves it, how come you want government to do it? Because nobody would spend money otehrwise?
Nope.. because I distrust corporate entities even more than I distrust the government. NASA answers to the people, through the government. I think you'd agree that having Enron running the Space Program would not be a hot idea. And the last time I checked, in my Tax Bracket I'm paying 32%. Whats yours?
If you were born anywhere else, with your suseptibility to brainwashing and blind support of anything government-imposed you would still be perfect US-hating subject of any other country. So your patriotism is not worth s#$t to me.
My good friend; I am not my governments puppet. Thats the diffrence between a citizen and a subject. You come from a society thats conditioned it's subjects from birth in an entirely diffrent way from the way this nations society raises up it's citizens. The very first civics lesson I got was "Question Authority" What was yours?
But you do not have to bother. Your hate of the "wealthy" and disgust of free-market ways would surely make you fit very well in socialist society. Just learn the few mantras and you are all done.
Thats a rip.. miko, I do not hate the wealthy. I hate wealthy people who sneer at the 'serfs'. Nothin ticks me off more some guy with a few bucks acting like his toejam don't stink because he's got an Armani suit and a Mercedes. It's all about attitude.. not wealth. A wealthy man grousing about taxes (and paying a significantly lower percentage of his earnings in taxes than a working stiff) will attract negative attention from the peanut gallery every time.
BTW - the space program is certainly not mine and probably not yours - unless you have some input into it which I surely do not.
I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. By choice. AND birth. That means I vote, and my money's in that shuttle program. Yep. it's MY shuttle program. And, when I vote this November, I'll give 'em my input.
Cheer up Miko.. nobody's asking you to fly in the damn thing. ;)
-
Well put Hangtime.
I agree with you, but I also agree with Miko2d - keeping government intervention to a minimum should be a goal. The government, as he points out, should not force atheists to fun public prayer or Christians to fund abortion.
He argues that if we want to support something, let us do it ourselves - let us choose. Of course this would mean that foreign aid would probably drop drastically, and a perfect society as Miko sees it is just as untried as that of true Communism - so it's impossible to confirm or refute whether it'd work.
I'm willing to give it a try though. My tax bracket is 45%, plus sales tax, 200% of price fee on water, 340% taxes on gasoline and so forth. My living costs are 30% higher than in the US, and I am currently earning, through unemplyement benefits from my union, $11 500 a year. So seeing Americans who earn 6-10 times more than that squeak about tax brackets at 32% is funny to me. Am barely getting by financially (as it should be, since I am unemployed) yet I still pay a lot more in taxes.
At any rate, Miko's views are idealistic, whereas Hangtimes are founded in reality and pragmatism. As such, I find both to be right.
-
Originally posted by Animal
The value of one B-2 Spirit and its yearly manteinance cost would be a godsend to NASA.
But we have a fleet of B-2's and NASA is hanging on a thread.
I really hope China is serious about a manned flight to Mars. That alone could jumpstart the Space Program.
What a sad state of affairs.
I have a wonderful idea there Animal, lets sell a few B-2's to China, or better yet to Sadaam and those toejamheads in North Korea, and then we can better fund NASA. Only problem is, we won't diddlying be here to have a NASA. Our military might is what keeps the rest of the monkeys in this world at bay.
I agree in raising NASA's budget, but not by cutting the military. hell, get rid of some of the leech social programs, or the wonderful Politician roadkill retirement fund, those things alone could raise the NASA budget by the billions needed.
You voted for Clinton didn't you?
:rolleyes:
-
Who said anything about selling B-2? You did. stop warping my words beyond recognition. The B-2 is far less a necesity than a decent space program. And it was an example, its not only the B-2, its many other things like those you mention. Its just that the B-2 is such a blatantly outrageous display of goverment priorities.
Whats next, a Voltron style giant robot of mass destruction, but capable of love?
And Hangtime - you too have been officially branded a socialst? Far out! welcome to the club! *high five*
-
Bah... Animal, not until you're branded a 'f*cking communist studmuffingot' do you knw you've really arrived.
-
Originally posted by Dowding
Bah... Animal, not until you're branded a 'f*cking communist studmuffingot' do you knw you've really arrived.
Cant be both.
miko and GRUNHERZ will have to sit down and argue who gets to judge me.
I dont really care about me cause I'm a little cynical bastard whos only on MY side, but I find it quite ironic that miko even dares to call Hangtime a socialist, an American by chance and not spirit, and a potential brainwashee.
Its downright insulting considering Hangs history of service to this country.
-
Originally posted by StSanta
The government, as he points out, should not force atheists to fun public prayer or Christians to fund abortion.
I understand your point and it is well made. Just can't help but chuckle at your choice of examples. How much do you suppose the tax payers are hit by funding all that public prayer? :)
-
If the citizens of the US could tell the government what percentage of their taxes to use on the space program NASA's budget would go through the roof. The program is massively underfunded when compared with the overall desire of most Americans to see it done.
-
Hangtime
In the morning after I feel bad that we got so heated discussion yesterday. :(
I still do believe that your statements were completely out of place and in bad taste but I could have handled it better like I will try to do now.
We have a purely technical discussion - whether a certain type of a space vehicle is better than another and what kind of administrative organisation (agency/private) is more efficient.
You had no call to accuse me of not being a patriot, being a greedy person or even an opponent of space development - all those are not true and have no bearing to the subject under discussion.
Yes, you've hit a button - you use typical propaganda tricks I grew up with in Soviet Union where opponent's motives were questioned instead of addressing his arguments. I would not be too prpud of it if I were you.
Ain't having a choice grand?? Sell it. Nobodys holding a pistol to yer head..
I am certainly thinking about that and do so when I can.
Here in America we pay for those things and others like the space program, the military and such with guess what.. Taxes. The American Way.
No problem. When a government needs a fighter jet, several private companies come up with projects and then manufacture the best one and sell to the govenment. I only want the same approach to state-conducted space exploration.
And the less prosperous amongst us look at guys in your situation and laff in your face when you squeak about it. "Awww.. ain't it tough being affluent??
Some of those envious "less affluent" do not even realise how much they suffer as the result of the government mismanaging. The people who tend to notice and recongize such mismanagment are usually educated, smart and well-read - which in US makes them more likely to be wealthy. Which, according to you makes their opinion automartically suspect and their patriotism questioned by liberal spinmasters. Should we only use expertise of the bums on the street from now on?
So.. rather than stay in your own country and help it pull itself up into the 20th century you opted for the easy route..
You are talking obvious noncense here. First, I've left from the Socialest Soviet Union before it fell. I had as much chance to "help" the country as any North Koread does now. We had no rights or votes or whatever. If I engaged in a public discussion (which I did), before getting a first warning from KGB (which I got), the mere statement that the country is not perfect elicited accusations of bad patriotism just like from you and invitation to go to America. Most russians confused constructive criticism with dislike rather than attempt to help - but unlike you they had excuse of being brainwashed. If I stayed here and worked to the best of my ability, it would be used to plug the holes and keep the bad system goind. If I engaged in outright sabotage, it would have hurt the people I knew.
Second, for all your mentionings of "American Way", you seem to believe that collectivism ratehr than free association of people engaged in mutually benefitting transactions is the substance of it. You are wrong.
you came here, where everything is just soooo much nicer.
That incorrectly presumes I had the complete picture of the life in america, let alone could forsee future. Nothing is further rom the truth. I took my risks.
My family spilled blood to help make this nation and prserve it,
How does that make a collectivist/socialist agenda you are pushing any less ruinous to this country?
Wow.. Damn.. now I'm an official socalist!!
I see you do not like the idea. I am really glad to hear that. With some reading you can see where you are mistaken.
And I'd just love to hear about the causes you donate money too. Hehehhehhehe
I do not feel comfortable writing about it here since all the claims are anonymous and unsubstantiated. I could claim anything at all and whatever I say, I can be accused by opponents of lying. Not that it would bear any relevance to the validity of my arguments. I donated 5 digits to the 9/11 fund. I spend 5 digits every year helping specific people to get ahead in life - become productive and contribting mebers of the society. My help comes with a lot of personal involvement and plenty of strings attached. I am not expecting the gov't to do that job for me and I do not look for any tax deductions. I also donate to education-related christian and jewish charities even though I am an atheist. I also support some educational foundations/institutions and think tanks - conservative and libertarian.
Nope.. because I distrust corporate entities even more than I distrust the government. NASA answers to the people, through the government.
With a corporation you can vote your shares or opt out. NASA does not answer to anyone. Government is not interested in disclosing any flaws in the agency caused by decisions it approved a few years earlier. Congressmen do not change too often. Admitting the NASA mistakes would put the blame squarely on many present powerfull members. NASA is part of government. So they audit themselves.
I think you'd agree that having Enron running the Space Program would not be a hot idea.
It failed, didn't it? Like any bad business should. I could care less about it though - I was not an investor or a business partner. Investing and diong business with someone always means risk - and government creating perception cafety through regulation makes those people be more reckless in their choices.
And the last time I checked, in my Tax Bracket I'm paying 32%. Whats yours?
I do not remember exactly - my wife does taxes. It's the top one, to be sure.
You come from a society thats conditioned it's subjects from birth in an entirely diffrent way from the way this nations society raises up it's citizens. The very first civics lesson I got was "Question Authority" What was yours?
Tried to condition - succeeded with most, surely. But we learned exactly the same rhetoric I am hearing from you now - "I am not my governments puppet." "I am a citizen, not a subject." Even "Question Authority". We had plenty of magazines criticizing defficiencies in various state operations. You could criticise a lot - as long as you knew the limits. We had misuse of state property and authority widely discussed. You would be surprised if you learned more.
So forget the childhood. I see here exactly what you are saying and the method you are using in your arguments - so the conditions of your upbringing are curious but not really relevant.
Thats a rip.. miko, I do not hate the wealthy. I hate wealthy people who sneer at the 'serfs'.
You misquote my statement same as you isrepresented my assesment statement as a boast. I was not sneering at the serfs - I claimed that we are serfs. People who had to work half of the year or more for government. And since the "wealthy" are in higher tax bracket, they are more serfs than less wealthy.
his toejam don't stink because he's got an Armani suit and a Mercedes.
Subary.
It's all about attitude.. not wealth. A wealthy man grousing about taxes (and paying a significantly lower percentage of his earnings in taxes than a working stiff) will attract negative attention from the peanut gallery every time.
If you imply me in that "wealthy" statement, due to progressive tax rates I pay higher percentage of my earnings than an average salary earner. But I am working for every cent I get.
Second. The point of my post was not complain about how much I pay but how arbitrary and nontransparently it is decided by some bureaucrat. I do not mind increased taxes - I want them increased honestly, by rate, not fudging with assessment values.
But you do not address that at all - just accuse me of not wanting to pay based on my insinuated personal character flaws.
I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. By choice. AND birth. That means I vote, and my money's in that shuttle program. Yep. it's MY shuttle program. And, when I vote this November, I'll give 'em my input.
I say again, the only difference between the government and any private foundation is that government can use coercion and violence to achieve cooperation.
If you really believed that majority wanted to build shuttles or send tax money to Africa, you would not insist on forcing it on people. If you believe it should be forced on people - then your commitment to freedom and democracy is questionable.
Cheer up Miko.. nobody's asking you to fly in the damn thing. ;)
Even if I wanted and had money, I would not be allowed into US Shuttle program. I would have had a better chance if a better approach was used.
BTW, here is a letter from 1986 wanrning of exactly such disasted as had occured to Columbia: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/bartel1.html It's called "The Latest Shuttle Disaster" but applies to Challenger.
Let's keep it civil. I will try to keep my the personal details of my life out of the posts to reduce your temptarion to make discussion personal rather then on issues? Do you think I should create another name or can you handle the pressure? ;)
miko
-
I grew up on Star Trek and the Apollo moon landings but like many people I’ve become disillusioned by the current space program. That is until I checked out some of the experiments carried out by STS-107:
Astronauts collected scent molecules from a rose and an Asian rice flower in zero-gravity, in an experiment funded by the fragrance industry. Scientists found during a 1998 shuttle experiment that miniature roses gave off different scents in zero-G — and that those scents could be re-created synthetically on Earth to yield new fashion fragrances. The 1998 study resulted in a new perfume called “Zen” by Shiseido, as well as a body spray called “Impulse.”
-MSNBC
This has completely changed my mind. People, this is important stuff. I now believe that pushing back the fragrance envelope should become our nation’s prime focus similar to the Apollo moon landing.
I always knew that something smelled at NASA. Now I know what it is.
-
Well, if every industry wanted to do research in space, space travel would be MUCH cheaper.
As I said... hope they find gold, platinum or oil in Mars, you'll see how we get there in no time.
Daniel
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Just walk into your kitchen, 60% of the technology in ones kitchen can be traced back to some sort of rocket or space technology...
digging for that article that shows you why...
And not just in the hardware, but food as well.
-
Miko.. Since I know you to be an intelligent and very competent human being, I can also assume you knew exactly what you said when you explained to us that we are 'serfs'.
He's the cut..
That's how your space program is implemented - by serf labor, not by free willing people.
There were other comments, in other threads that cut across the lines of 'technical discussions' and WALLAH! You got me camped out on the back of your neck.
Since the products I make were developed for the space program, and I know myself to not be a 'serf' and have yet to meet even one unwilling soul let alone serf involved in the space program, I felt it was high time your high horse got a swift kick in the ass.
Some of those envious "less affluent" do not even realise how much they suffer as the result of the government mismanaging. The people who tend to notice and recongize such mismanagment are usually educated, smart and well-read - which in US makes them more likely to be wealthy. Which, according to you makes their opinion automartically suspect and their patriotism questioned by liberal spinmasters. Should we only use expertise of the bums on the street from now on?
LOL.. I love how you managed to worm a 'liberal spinmeister' into that diatribe. That'll look good on my resume right next to 'socialist'. I suspect (!!) you have misjudged me. As I said.. it's not about wealth.. it's about attitude. I'm just as likely to kick a poor pinhead in the pants as a rich one. I never claimed NASA was well managed. In my 50 years of sucking in air and blowing out stink I've never observed any federally controlled agency that was either efficient or well managed.
On the other hand, NASA, warts and all, has managed to accomplish some things that no other entity on the face of this planet could accomplish. One could argue that ends justify means.. I'm satisfied that the guy currently in charge of the manned program (dittmore) is a quality Joe, and not a pinhead. He's got my support.
... First, I've left from the Socialest Soviet Union before it fell. I had as much chance to "help" the country as any North Koread does now. We had no rights or votes or whatever. If I engaged in a public discussion (which I did), before getting a first warning from KGB (which I got), the mere statement that the country is not perfect elicited accusations of bad patriotism just like from you and invitation to go to America. Most russians confused constructive criticism with dislike rather than attempt to help - but unlike you they had excuse of being brainwashed. If I stayed here and worked to the best of my ability, it would be used to plug the holes and keep the bad system goind. If I engaged in outright sabotage, it would have hurt the people I knew.
First, you tell me I'm brainwashed because I was raised here.. then ya tell me I'm not brainwashed.. your citizens were. I'm not at all confused, but it sure looks to me like your pretty damn busy hopping back and forth on this issue.
Fact.. You are a Russian Immigrant. You made a choice.. this nation, not the one of your birth. Now that you are here, you angrily remonstrate that we are socialist puppets, our taxation boards and government agencys are enslaving the people and it's products are substandard.
You howl about our inability to accept constructive criticisim. You call us names. I never called you a name Miko.. all I said was "You, sir; suck"!! LOL! It was not even a criticisim.. just a simple observation.
Look.. matters not when or how you managed to get here. Matters not even why. What matters is that you left and came here and now apparently you can't stand your local government, you detest the national one and your all for a total freemarket economy.
Well.. how about this.. the oppressive government you left is no longer in control of the land of your birth. You appear to be a man of some means, so the ability to leave this land and return to the one of your birth is well within your powers to effect. That nation needs free thinkers like yourself that understand the political ramifications of a 'socialist democracy'.. why not return there and assist your native land in its attempts to improve the lot of it's citizens?
I'll tell yah why.. yer a sellout. ;) Yer here to do some carpetbagging and really really resent the government gettin it's share of your pie. And you are also well aware that the land of your birth is now thorougly dominated by a 'freemarket entity' that ruthlessly protects it's control of the 'serf's.. the Russian Mob.
Far easier to languish here, protected by the society that gave rise to such socialist democratic nonsense spinmeistering as "one small step for man..."
You can take all the potshots yah want at my 'patriotisim' miko. You'll not be able to tarnish it. Yours on the other hand is as fake as your rolex.
...I was not sneering at the serfs - I claimed that we are serfs. People who had to work half of the year or more for government. And since the "wealthy" are in higher tax bracket, they are more serfs than less wealthy.
No cigar. Neither I or you work half our lives to pay the government.. oversimplification and broad misdirection. You've made yet another serious mistake here Miko.. don't try to roadkill the public about the wealthy and their tax liabilities. Data point.. If you are 'wealthy' and paying a higher percentage of your net income than I am in taxes then you'd better fire your wife and get a good accountant. FACT>> The Wealthy in this nation pay a significantly lower percentage of their income in taxes than does the middle class.
If there's one thing we can agree on here it's that this nations tax codes are freakin insanely broken... and need to be chucked out the window a heluva lot more than NASA's Shuttle program.
The point of my post was not complain about how much I pay but how arbitrary and nontransparently it is decided by some bureaucrat. I do not mind increased taxes - I want them increased honestly, by rate, not fudging with assessment values.
There's a system in this country where a grievence regarding property values can be addressed. Get a lawyer. When they re-assesed my property values and cranked up the rates I got a hearing and the the assesment was reduced. The system ain't perfect, but you sure as hell have more rights than a gawdamned serf.
I say again, the only difference between the government and any private foundation is that government can use coercion and violence to achieve cooperation.
Third big lie. Corporations are a whole lot nastier than governments when it comes to protecting markets and profits. Corercion and Violence is the trademark of Corporations not limited by government. At the height of the industrial revolution in thios country Coroprations murdered routinely. Thank christ Government stepped in...
Let's keep it civil. I will try to keep my the personal details of my life out of the posts to reduce your temptarion to make discussion personal rather then on issues? Do you think I should create another name or can you handle the pressure?
Hey.. I'm comfortable on either level. ;) Understand that I respect your opinions more than this mere type interface can possibly convey. What you've been through and what you've accomplished since you've been here would likey read like the classic american success story. I well aware that without folks like you contributing to the fund of talent and knowledge here we would not have an America as strong and diverse as it is.. I also hope you understand that when you paint the nation and it's accomplishments with a poorly applied brush there will be folks like myself that will kick yah in the pants and point out that there's far more to the paintjob than just paint.
-
Hangtime: Miko.. Since I know you to be an intelligent and very competent human being, I can also assume you knew exactly what you said when you explained to us that we are 'serfs'.
OK, you cought me - I was speaking metaphorically. Unlike real serfs, we can pack up an leave, true - at least individually, not by state. I'll just have to make adjustment for the fact that most people do not read the same stuff I do - conservative and libertarian - where this term is widely used and they are not accustomed to the sense in which it is used. Of course only some of the aspects of real serfdom are implied by modern reference - inability to dispose of one's own property and having to part with bigger part of one's income being most important among many others.
I know myself to not be a 'serf' and have yet to meet even one unwilling soul let alone serf involved in the space program,
I am one - unwillint to participate in NASA-conducted space program. Quite a few more too. Can we take our money out of it and use elsewhere - on a better space program, perhaps? Or a sea-exploration program? Or deep Earth exploration? We know less of those than of space and probably need to know more, them having much more direct influence on our lives.
On the other hand, NASA, warts and all, has managed to accomplish some things that no other entity on the face of this planet could accomplish.
That's very arguable - as the article I cited and many others witness.
Now that you are here, you angrily remonstrate that we are socialist puppets, our taxation boards and government agencys are enslaving the people and it's products are substandard.
There is a large number of born americans believing exactly that. I gues you are not familiar with the abundant literature on the subject and think I came up with the stuff singlehandedly. That's very flaterring but not true.
While I do believe that the government products are substandard, I mean they are substandard not compared to even worse governments but to products produced or that could be produced in america in truly american way - through free enterprise. Do not represent my critique of US government arrangement as a critique of american way of life.
Anyway, for a claimed proponent of truly american values, why did it matter to you where I come from and how much money I make or what philosophy I subscribe to to bring it into this discussion in the first place?
That's pretty much opposite to an american approach of judging the ideas on their merits, not origins.
My "ceditious" ideas are the same ones as most Founding Fathers adhered to and many americans still do. I am trying to explain the content of them as well as I can in a limited space and if you find something strange, why don't you ask me for elaboration instead of claiming the representation of american ideals to yourself. That would be much more productive knowlege-wise.
Corporations are a whole lot nastier than governments when it comes to protecting markets and profits.
They can send armed people into your house if you decline to buy product from them and switch to a better alternative?
BTW, I fully support the role of government in protecting citizens from coercion and violence by anyone - corporations, individuals, foreign states. I do not see a need for government to do things that private competitive business can do better.
When government got out of airline or long distance phone or otehr businesses, those got better, not worse
Also, your invitations to go wherever and help whoever are quite beyong the mark. First, I can and do help whoever I want from where I am right now - including my country of birth, which is not Russia anymore but a separate country of Ukraine.
Second, I believe that all human interaction must be voluntary and mutually beneficial. I appreciated that America let me in to realise my potential but I know for sure it benefited from my arrival as well.
I am surely as interested as you are in seeing it prosper and do not believe the circumstances of my birth disqualify me from making judgements.
If you are 'wealthy' and paying a higher percentage of your net income than I am in taxes then you'd better fire your wife and get a good accountant. FACT>> The Wealthy in this nation pay a significantly lower percentage of their income in taxes than does the middle class.
On my presumed wealth, I have very vague idea what you are talking about - all my income is an admittedly substantial salary and I know I pay more than 50% in combined taxes going for purposes directly opposed by the Founding Fathers. I am undoubtedly in a middle class. May be the 'wealthy' you are referring to are the ones with interest income and tax shelters but what does that have to do with me - except underline my point of badly-arranged governmental organisation that allows such abuse.
Are you interested in libertarian thought - even if to know what a significant part of americans are thinking, I can give you some references. I could give you rational explanations/references why I believe arrangement of US and some of your views are socialist to a large degree. Without name calling. If not, let's just forget that stuff.
miko