Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on February 03, 2003, 02:32:31 PM
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A man can dream about many things.
Conquering space for example. Or "the last frontier" as some people call it. Personally I think the last frontier is a good name for it. The frontier was the place where the settlers cultivated the praries, where the trappers and explorers saw lands no white man had ever seen before. Where the ground and the animals turned into gold. A place of adventure, danger, rewards. It is the epitome of the land of the free, the responisbility of the individual. It is the place where cowboys rode into the sunset and where the law was upheld by Colt and Winchester.
The frontier was the string of outposts, settlements, forts, farms where the american dream was made. The promise that everything could be achieved if you only wanted it bad enough.
You see, for some of us Europeans the American fascination of the frontier can be hard to understand. For most Europeans the frontier is the place where civilization stops. While it seems that for an american it is the place where dreams begin. It is the place where the american dream lives.
And when the west was won, when the frontier dissapeared, it was relocated.
To space.
That is why the Colombia lays scattered all over Texas. That is why Challenger was lost.
Some may say that there are other reasons behind those tragic fates. A space race, military interests, economic interests, presidents wanting to make history or congressmen in the pocket of the space industry, obsessed engineers or the lowest bidder...or maybe a broken ceramic tile, a rubber o-ring.
But there would never have been any Columbia or Challenger if it hadnt been for the Americans and their dream, their frontier. And maybe that is the last outpost of old ideals these days, an outpost for the desire to conquer nature, a place where sacrifice, duty, honor still means something.
So while the rest of the world shares your grief over your fallen astronauts, we remain confident that you will return once again to the frontier. And that you will keep on doing these great things in the name of all mankind. To conquer new lands, to visit places never before seen by man. To travel further than anyone has ever gone before. Because it is only you who can do it. No other nation on this Earth seems capable for anything more than to follow in your footsteps. Nowhere does this become more apparent than right now.
You know, I have to wonder if the Iraqis, or the ones squatting in caves in Afghanistan could ever even begin to dream about starting a space program, a program of exploration, to reach for the stars.
I doubt it.
Sometimes you may appear greedy, self-serving or even arrogant, but your system, your way of life, your dream produces some absolutely stunning achievements. You have walked on the moon, you are aiming at Mars.
So at the risk of becoming "the rest of the night was spent holding Kimberly"-material. And for no particular reason, a big
Dont ever change.
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Very heartfelt - thank you. Its nice to see an alternate viewpoint on the BBS from time to time (even if it is a bit soothing like "waves crashing on the shore." :D
I vote we give more aid to Sweden!!!
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wannabe.
:D
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Nice post Hortlund.
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Well written Steve. I feel no need to argue with you... weird feeling.
and thank you.
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Sorry but I can't agree... what you said is not a trademark of the US of A, but of humanity.
Shuttle Columbia was named after Cristobal Colon, explorer, dreamer from (I think) Naples who wanted to find a new route to the Indies.
The Spanish kings of the time decided it would be worth the risk so they funded the expedition... and America was discovered.
I think the desire for exploration, for new frontiers, to go forward, is embedded in humans... we just happen to forget it sometimes.
Space is the best of examples.
Space was conquered thanks to the work of people from many races, creeds, and countries.
Did they really want their country to go to space or humanity as a whole?
My opinion may be biased by the fact that I know people from many different places working in the space industry, and I can tell you they don't give a damn if the first man/woman to put his/her foot on the surface of Mars is American, Cambodian, or from Congo. They want to dedicate their work to achieve something bigger than them, knowing that the final results can take decades to come. They may not live to see the result of their work, but that's the spirit, actually.
Call me a dreamer, but I'll try to do my best (which is not much, to be honest) to help space exploration go forward. Not because I'm from Barcelona, Catalunya, España, or Europe, but because I think it's worth it.
And that's about all I want to say about this.
Daniel
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but cyrano, the term american doesnt necessarily mean "originating from america." it could mean anyone from anywhere on the globe. they call it the melting pot for a reason.
Space was conquered thanks to the work of people from many races, creeds, and countries.
[/b]
i agree. is america not made up for MANY races, creeds, etc? name one human of any nationality the US does not contain within its borders. in a sense, to give credit to america is to give credit to the world.
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Hortlund
That was well said.
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Thank you Hortland. As an Ameican, I've begun to feel like a target recently, and your post makes "their" aim a little tougher.
And CyranoAH, you need to study your American history a little closer and remember that this country is truly a melting pot like Octavius said.
;)
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What Cyrano meant (i think) was that we are here today (technologicaly speaking) because of the deeds of many poeple around earth, Not the US of A only. (Ok, the ratio is large but... ;)).
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My ancestors immigrated to the Americas because of the Ideas posted in Hortland's post. They came from Prussia, Scotland, Belgium, and Sweden. I am a third Generation U.S. Citizen. I believe and always will in the Constitution of the United States. I think the men who wrote it were truly inspired. The will to be free lives in it, and the way to be free is defined by it. Often we stumble, fight among ourselves, and make mistakes. But the spirit of dreams that brought our ancestors to the shores of the Americas lives on.
I lived in Europe for many years while in the Service, and I always felt like I was returning to my long lost home when exiting the Flugplatz im Frankfurt. But my home is Chicago. I was born here, I have loved, cried, and maybe I will die here. But my dream is for a Constitution for the whole world to live under and flourish under. One Nation of Earth with all the Voices of all of our many faces, and cultures represented Equally. Not an Empire, but a community. I think that as communication between average folks progresses, this dream will be realized. No sane man ever wants war, and we all have a dream of freedom, prosperity, and of peace.
The beginings of that dream have started with the international Space Station. As we of earth look up and see three intrepid men from nations that were at once on the brink of Nuclear destruction we can all look up and have hope. We have lost some of the best in us in achieving that Saturday. More will be lost before the end, but their legacy will live on in all the Free Hearts of Earth.
Thank you Hortand for writing that post.
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TWOLF, it's good to see someone else that believes in a world community that lives in peace. I presented the idea of a world government in college many years ago and my professor said it would probably be 500 years before that happened. I hope we don't have to wait that long for your ideas to come to the forefront.
:)
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"The eagle has landed."
Most significant words of last millenium .
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That was the nicest thing i think i have read on this board ever.
thx Man.
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Thank you Hortlund
Very nice sentiments and very touching.
p.s.
CyranoAH
The Columbia was named after the first American ship that circumvented the globe in the 1700's.
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Hortland, you panzie eurotrash talkin weenie..
thanks.
;)
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Hortlund... very welcome words, and so well written - hard to believe English is not your mother tongue. :)
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Hortlund
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Hortlund :)
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Hortlund,
Salute, sir.
Even though we all disagree at times, thank you for such an eloquent post. BTW, I hope you don't ever change. This BBS is definitely more boring without you. :)
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Well said Hortlund.
Don't stop, guys. It is worth it. And I hope Russians will do the best we can to help to overcome the problems with manned space programm.
We are different, but in some things we are very much alike. Both our nations made our way from ocean to ocean, and we are not going to stop regardless to any disaster that can look so bad now.
to the American people.
I was one of the first to bring flowers to American embassy in Moscow on Saturday, and believe me, my four flowers were not alone there.
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Jolly good post Hortlund, - this could not have been done any better.
Lets hope that the Americans overcome this "bump" and continue their space program with even more ambition. There is a long way to go, and being a global thing, this is one thing that the nations of the wold can at least help each other with. Remember russian and american astronauts shaking hands in space in the middle of the cold war? And remember astronauts manning the shuttles, coming from all corners and races of the globe, - yes there was even an Icelandic astronaut!!!
Americans: keep going, you've done quite much so far, and we would not like you to stop there.
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Aww shucks Hortlund and Boroda et al.
Now I feel bad making Euro jokes.
I would say something nice about Sweden or Russia but I'm too arrogant. :)
You shouldn't compliment us like that, it just goes to our head. :)
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You see, for some of us Europeans the American fascination of the frontier can be hard to understand. For most Europeans the frontier is the place where civilization stops. While it seems that for an american it is the place where dreams begin. It is the place where the american dream lives.
Say that to Columbus. Say that to ALL the early western explorers.
Yes, yes, the US are always cutting edge while Europe is sitting in the back, comfortably ignoring the fringes.
Werner von Braun. German. Went to the US. Other German scientists went to the USSR.
But only the US dares to push the limits.
I see it now.
It's a nice post, but it's too much of a suckup to Americans. Well, at least Hortlund has come out of the closet.
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I think I actually might vomit.
The spirit of exploration is not owned by any one nation - it is human nature and has nothing to do with nationality. Look at history - Magellan, Drake, Columbus, Marco Polo even those Viking dudes who apparently discovered America all orginated from different societies but produced astounding discoveries for their time. Every one was taking their lives in their hands and stepping into the unknown. Many died along the way.
At this moment in time, the US has the resources and the political will to send brave individuals to the next frontier. It's just another addition to the long line of explorers that went before, except each step takes more effort and more resources.
So let's drop the sycophantic pandering that seems to have errupted around here and get real. The Columbia's crew made a sacrifice for greater ideal, I'm sure it will not be in vain.
Therefore, to bring Iraq into the discussion cheapens the whole thing. Space exploration is meant to be inclusive, and you can bet every nation on Earth has wondered about travelling out there. Even Iraqis, given their ancestors were part of the Persian empire including its reknowned astronomers. It is simply human nature to keep pushing at the walls.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well said Hortlund.
Don't stop, guys. It is worth it. And I hope Russians will do the best we can to help to overcome the problems with manned space programm.
We are different, but in some things we are very much alike. Both our nations made our way from ocean to ocean, and we are not going to stop regardless to any disaster that can look so bad now.
to the American people.
I was one of the first to bring flowers to American embassy in Moscow on Saturday, and believe me, my four flowers were not alone there.
If it wasnt for the Russians we might have 3 guys walking back from the ISS
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Originally posted by Krusher
If it wasnt for the Russians we might have 3 guys walking back from the ISS
Amen.
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spain? sounds sorta familiar... something to do with flaminco dancing or something?
lazs
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The spirit of exploration is not owned by any one nation. That is very true.
In Sweden we hold our Vikings as a proud example of that spirit of exploration.
In Spain and Portugal, the explorers and the conquistadors are held up as proud examples of that spirit.
In England, men like Cook and Livingston are held up as proud examples of that spirit.
Yes, mankind has always wanted to see what's beyond the horizon.
I dont think that is relevant to the current discussion.
I do not think that any European nation or any gathering of European nations could start and maintain such a space program as the Americans have. Simply because we could never focus for long enough. Santa, you live in Denmark, Dowding you live in England. You bloody well know that the idea of pumping in billions of dollars into a space program every year would not survive one year, let alone 40+ years. I can see it now already…the endless "Why should we pay trillions of dollars to send up three guys into space when there are people starving in Somalia/when a factory worker is earning 10c an hour/when there are places where the money is better spent for example *insert whatever reason* ".
Heck, most European nations cant even keep their current military budgets despite the fact that the world is more unsafe now than since ww2. Instead we spend our money on aid to various suspect third world nations, we spend our money on gigantic social security programs, we spend our money on weird weird ideas…
What I am talking about is not personal interest, motivation, desire. What I am talking about is the ability for one nation to stay focused over an extended period of time, working towards a goal that might not be clear, a goal that might not be reachable in a lifetime. An ability to accept loss of life trying to achieve that goal, an ability to keep focused.
In Europe, that would never happen. First, because no European nation is rich enough to have its very own manned space program. Second because as soon as there are two European nations cooperating about anything, there are too many differences of opinion involved. Yes I know there are examples of such cooperation, like Concorde, Tiger, Eurofighter etc but that is on a completely different scale than a space program would require.
The EU will ultimately fail because we really dont want to be that closely tied together…ever think about that? Germany and France (together with the Benelux countries) started what would later become the EC and the EU in 1952 with the coal and steel union….but why did they really do that? Because they wanted to keep a close eye on each others production of coal and steel (critical for warfare in 1952). Then this project grew into the EC, and more nations joined, simply because it seemed to be a good idea to abolish trade tariffs inside Europe, and it would be a good counterweight to the US. It was good economics.
Then this project grew into the EU, and suddenly the idea became more than just peaceful and economic, now there were talks about a common foreign policy and a common security policy... and soon it will grow even bigger. And then nations will start to break out.
Personally I have no desire to be in a union with Poland, Hungary, France, Spain, Greece (the list can be made long) the idea to open the Swedish borders to Poland, Lithuania, Slovenia freaks me out because I do not trust those countries. It will become even worse when Turkey eventually joins, together with Romania and Bulgaria. I dont want my tax dollars going to subsidize some weird French farmer, or some ridiculous crap like that. Besides, I dont even want to eat French or English or German meat because I dont trust their farmers (Sweden is the only EU nation without any case of mad cow disease).
I guess you can call me Mr Isolationistic.
No, the EU is just a political project gone wild, one that lacks the fundamental support of the citizens of the various member nations. An EU space program? Please, we cant even agree on cod fishing for crying out loud.
So go ahead and vomit Dowding. It doesnt matter really, we just see things differently. Personally I am of the opinion that a manned space program is to the benefit of all of mankind. Heck I think the future of mankind is out there. I am also of the opinion that the US is the only nation in the world able to lead the way. I also think it is the only nation in the would that would openly invite scientists from all around the world to participate in that space program. Other nations might be able to go into space too, but you have to ask yourself why those nations are going into space.
Apparently you disliked my comment on Iraq or the Taliban, so let me ask you this. Do you really think that the Taliban, would be interested in manned space flight? You know who I'm talking about here…right? You know the guys blowing up centuries old Buddha statues because the Koran forbids images of people, the guys sending all their kids to Koran schools where they are indoctrinated on the teachings of the Koran and the Koran only. DO YOU REALLY THINK that they would want to start their own manned space program of peaceful exploration? Well I DONT. I think they would rather see a planet dominated by Islam first, and then they would revert back to some neolithic culture where women are stoned for wearing a skirt.
Same for Iraq. Do you really think that Saddam Hussein would launch his own manned space program with the sole purpose of peaceful exploration? No, IF he would ever launch his own space program, you can bet that he would have some alternate motive. He would not do it for the greater glory of mankind. He would do it either for the greater glory of himself, or to place some weapon out there in orbit.
Now China has started their own space program. Do you think they are doing it for their own good or for the greater good of mankind? Same with the USSR, do you think they went into space so they could share all their discoveries with scientists all over the world? BECAUSE I DONT THINK SO. I think they went into space as a part of the arms race, to gain an advantage. I think China is going into space as a part of the new arms race, to catch up with the American domination.
Santa, I dont know what it is with you lately, but your latest string of posts are just weird. Apparently you think I'm sucking up to the Americans...Personally I think it is about respect and (when it comes to their achievements in space) some admiration.
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Dowding....me thinks you're an unhappy little fella....can't remember a time you've said anything kind or positive.
You're just jealous....an ugly characteristic....just work on it.
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I love you rude. :)
Forgive me if I choke on your hypocrisy. You're posts are generally one or two lines long in which you try to annoy or aggrevate. I see nothing positive in what you write.
Note I don't make any judgements about you. That would be dreadfully un-Christian.
Hortlund - in your original post you were fawning over American achievements as if they invented the idea of exploration. That was the issue I had with it. I agree that the achievements of the US over the last 50 years have been remarkable. But at the same time, I admire the Russians for their dogged determination.
The point about Iraq is that you seem to paint the country to be a state filled with little homogeneous Saddam Husseins, all running around cursing the West and burning books. I'm sure you know better than that. I'm sure Iraqis look up at the sky and wonder. They aren't allowed to pursue their ideas or communicate them, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of orginating them. My point isn't that Saddam Hussein would be himself capable of contributing, but the people would given a shot at free will.
The same goes for Afghanistan. Notice I refer to the state, not the regime that used to be there. You seem to be of the opinion that the Taliban represented Afghanistan or their way of thinking. They were a bunch of bandits that stole a whole country for their perverted vision of Islam. They are gone - and I bet your poor Afghani goat herder shares exactly the same curiosity and sense of wonderment as a NASA scientist, when they look up at the sky. I'm sure of that.
Iraqis and Afghanis aren't untermenschen. They aren't animals. They are just unfortunate to be born under despotic regimes.
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Dowding....
I don't have anything personal against you nor have I stood in judgement against or for you. I am a christian, however, that does not exempt me from calling a spade a spade.
You just don't seem to like America or Americans....you complain about an awful lot of topics and don't ever seem to offer anything positive to a topic of discussion or to an individual.
Now, being a christian, I'm still flesh....if you had a glimpse of what I have started to say to you and others on these silly boards, you'de cover your eyes and get all flushed:)
Later my little unhappy America hater:)
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You ought to read your own posts - there was self-righteous judgement all over that last post of yours.
American hater? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.
What topic of conversation is floating around the O-club at the moment? Iraq? Which American (and UK) policy do I have a problem with? The policy toward Iraq! Fancy that!
It doesn't take a genius to work out there might be a link. I would suggest your patriotism is so brittle, the slightest bit of criticism breaks through and exposes your insecurity. I seem to remember a thread the other day in which I was asking Hangtime about Vietnam and his experiences - he was fine about it and it was very interesting. And you jumped in all hurt and fury as if I'd set 'Old Glory' on fire. And he was the Vietnam vet! It was pathetic.
Reverting to name calling still looks idiotic no matter how many smilies you sprinkle on top. A turd with cake icing is still a turd.
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spain? sounds sorta familiar... something to do with flaminco dancing or something?
lazs2, is this your contribution to this thread? It's amazing what little a small mind can come up with. I bet you ride around in your beat up pickup truck with a dog in the back and an "Easy Rider" rifle rack in the window. By the way, learn how to spell. It's "flamenco" and it's a style of music, not just a style of dance. They do have dictionaries where you come from, don't they?
:mad:
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This thread is being hijacked. If it's turning into another Iraq thread, there's already several more suitable venues.
I was going to say something with respect to Iraq, but i"ll go find a more appropriate thread.
Thanks, Hortlund. I appreciate the sentiment behind the initial post.
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Originally posted by lazs2
spain? sounds sorta familiar... something to do with flaminco dancing or something?
lazs
LOL you can do MUCH better lazs... thought you were a professional!! :D
Hortlund, sorry for being the cause of the hijacking of this thread, just wanted to state that the spirit is inside all of us, even if we don't want to be classified as americans :)
Daniel
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ok.... flamenco... people do dance to it tho? I have a spell checker and a dictionary or 3 also... why do you ask? sorry no pickup tho unless you count an El Camino.
dowding... yes... you are an American hater and... your patriotism is as "brittle" as any I have seen... allmost laughable the way you live in the past too.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
dowding... yes... you are an American hater
lazs
*reads Dawding's original post*
*laughs at the sweet irony of lasz2's words*
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Man..you guys read wayyyyy to much into an idiv's posts. Go buy a book and lay off the O'club over load.
xBAT
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Well,..this took a nose dive.
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Originally posted by Dowding
You ought to read your own posts - there was self-righteous judgement all over that last post of yours.
American hater? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.
What topic of conversation is floating around the O-club at the moment? Iraq? Which American (and UK) policy do I have a problem with? The policy toward Iraq! Fancy that!
It doesn't take a genius to work out there might be a link. I would suggest your patriotism is so brittle, the slightest bit of criticism breaks through and exposes your insecurity. I seem to remember a thread the other day in which I was asking Hangtime about Vietnam and his experiences - he was fine about it and it was very interesting. And you jumped in all hurt and fury as if I'd set 'Old Glory' on fire. And he was the Vietnam vet! It was pathetic.
Reverting to name calling still looks idiotic no matter how many smilies you sprinkle on top. A turd with cake icing is still a turd.
I don't think I jumped in on any thread in which Hang was telling of his war experiences....post a link and refresh my memory.
This is the truth of the matter....this board provides some cheap entertainment for me throughout an otherwise busy and stressful day.
What you say or how you feel is forgotten as soon as I close the browser.
Self righteous? I'm an American reading your criticisms....a young mans criticisms lined with more passion and testosterone than common sense and a lack of wisdom appropriate for such few years lived.
Trust me, I don't take you nearly as seriously as you take yourself...best to get over it.:)
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I'm not an American hater, old man. :) I consider that an insult in many ways.
I'm sick of this rubbish anyway, life's too short.
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ROFL!!
We're all taking each other way to damn seriously..
Dowding.. Rude (in that other vietnam thread) was referring to some other bozo further up thread.. the fact that his post came up after yours in the thread is what lead you (and possibly others) to assume he was taking a swipe at you. I don't think he was.
Rude.. Dowding has an excellent intellect.. and I think I've gotten enough outta reading his posts on relative points of view to be able to say with certainty I'd like to have a few beers with him.. and the same goes for you. The devil's advocates ain't the devil. A good advocate can see both sides of a situation and often deliver a third alternative. I like that. And your both good at it. ;)
Cheers, mates!
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Exploration may be human nature, but so far only the American dollar has gone into the NASA program.
The only other nation that can claim credit for space exploration would be Russia... if it weren't for them the NASA program wouldn't be where it is today.
You want space exploration to be all inclusive... some money for nicer rides into space would be a nice way to make that happen.
We're chocked full of scientists, space exploration is hitting the proverbial brick wall because of a lack of funds.
Humanity can either conquer space together, or they can ride on the backs of the Russians and Americans... what's it gonna be?
-SW
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It would be cool to meet the people I've argued with over the last couple of years. I'd never used a BBS before I came to AH - I'd barely used the internet. It's been an interesting experience.
There's no way you can form a balanced opinion on someone just reading these boards. Unfortunately, I tend to do just that, and then one post leads to another and pretty soon I've said something pretty stupid and started getting aggressive.
I'm a big Jack Daniels drinker Hangtime, BTW. Maybe one day I could get over to an AH con and drink the old timers around here under the table. Well... okay, I could give it a damned good go anyways. ;)
I don't really have any hard feelings towards anybody - not even Grunherz, and he called me a 'f***ing communist studmuffingot'. :D
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Humanity can either conquer space together, or they can ride on the backs of the Russians and Americans... what's it gonna be?
I'd like to see Europe, China, Russia and the US going into space together. It seems like such a distant prospect however.
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I'd like all nations to join together scientifically and monetarily to form an International Space Program... it sickens me to think how far in space we would be today, but only if the Cold War had continued until today.
It's sad that the only REAL driving force to get into space and keep pushing the boundaries was the threat of a nuclear winter.
-SW
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Dowding....
I love you man!:D
Tell ya what....I wish I was as hopeful as you are about many things...I may be old, but I remember being passionate about many things....now days I'm only passionate about my family...perhaps if I were more passionate towards my faith, I wouldn't open my big mouth as often. :)
and Hang...a vision of you in a diaper with a very small bow and arrow has left me with but one choice of action...I'm goin home!
:)
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I'm a big Jack Daniels drinker Hangtime, BTW. Maybe one day I could get over to an AH con and drink the old timers around here under the table. Well... okay, I could give it a damned good go anyways.
I gave up drinkin hard and fast.. I'm a mean drunk. ;)
All is not lost tho... there are other methods. :D
Rude, after that intresting word painting, I may take up drinkin again. Just to get the taste outta my mouth. And thats not a diaper. Its a dependz.
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Well gentlemen, it seems this very well intentioned thread has been Hijacked by some Neysayers from both sides of the fence. Let’s clear up a few things shall we?
First. The U.S. is the World in its composition of people. The NASA space program is part of that. This is a Human project, not an American Project.
Second, unless you are a Certified descendent of American Natives (less then 5% of the population of the U.S.) Then you are not an American. You are a U.S. Citizen. If your looking in the mirror and a White, Black, Yellow, or a Brown face is looking back then you are a European 70% of all U.S. Citizens (White) 20% African (Black) and 15+% from Asia, and the Middle East. +/- 5% is pretty accurate. Look it up.
I don’t care if you got off the boat 5 minutes ago, or 500 years ago your still NOT an American. Your blood is as European, African, Asian, or what ever as the folks that are born on those continents.
That goes for the “Euro’s” too. Stop acting like children!
WE ARE ALL THE SAME, WE ARE ALL HUMAN. There are bigger things in life then He said she said. Seven Amazing lives passed from us on Saturday, from Europe, Asia, and Africa. All seven Human. All seven working toward a Human goal. The quest for space.
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TWOLF
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So at the risk of becoming "the rest of the night was spent holding Kimberly"-material....
I knew we'd get there.
Hail, Swami Hortland!!
;)
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My God!!
I step away for one day and Hang gets all kissy face.....
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hehehehhe... better living through chemicals.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well written Steve. I feel no need to argue with you... weird feeling.
and thank you.
Gimme an H!
Gimme an O!
Gimme an R!
Gimme a T!
Gimme a L!
Gimme a U!
Gimme an N!
Gimme a D!
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Hey.. is that an anchovie or yah just here for the pizza?
'G'.. the carnage on these boards can be ferocious at times. Ok, most of the time., but ain't no bad folks hereabouts.. just bad opinions. ;)
In time you may come to discover that the AH BBS natives will at least give yer dismembered carcass a decent burial after they rip your heart out and eat it.
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Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! *dons flak-jacket and join in the group hug* :)
ROFLMAO!!! :D :D
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Hortlund, if I've come across as an angry stunninghunk, it's probably because I get inflamed by posts here.
There is too much one sidedness admiration. I don't mind critique on Europe - there is a hell of a lot to comment on here. The same is true for the US - many things are questionable there.
The thing is, one needs to be open about the world. That includes ones own part of it. I see lots of and 'great post' when admiration is expressed, yet when it is about serious concern, you're either met by a wall os silence or derisive comments and red herrings.
To use Bushs words - 'let there be no mistake' - the US has, like Europe, plenty of things that ain't right. it has many good things, as has Europe. We need not to be cheerleaders or country bashers but objective human beings.
Your post comes after a long line of patriotic posts about America, and after a string of abusive posts about the rest of the world. It's getting one sided and we're losing our collective objectivity, if we ever had one.
My sucking up comments was a reflection of how I've seen you develop through your interaction with Americans on this board. In the start, you were more critical and objective. Now, you use stronger and stronger words, often with emotional content, to argue about something that is best seen in an objective light. And decidedly from a pro American position.
Nothing wrong with being pro American or pro whatever, as long as one is objective. MY feeling is jsut that you're losing your objectivity, wanting to replace it with a feeeling of being 'one in the popular gang'.
You got a good mind, that's what so annoying about it. You don't NEED a black and white world. Yer mind can handle shades of grey. Most people are unable to handle grayness, and for almost everyone, black and white is more comfortable. But it ain't accurate.
No qualms with you personally. Just don't like to see you as a cheerleader. And I call it as I see it, even if it ain't very dimplomatic.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Hortlund, if I've come across as an angry stunninghunk, it's probably because I get inflamed by posts here.
There is too much one sidedness admiration. I don't mind critique on Europe - there is a hell of a lot to comment on here. The same is true for the US - many things are questionable there.
The thing is, one needs to be open about the world. That includes ones own part of it. I see lots of and 'great post' when admiration is expressed, yet when it is about serious concern, you're either met by a wall os silence or derisive comments and red herrings.
To use Bushs words - 'let there be no mistake' - the US has, like Europe, plenty of things that ain't right. it has many good things, as has Europe. We need not to be cheerleaders or country bashers but objective human beings.
Your post comes after a long line of patriotic posts about America, and after a string of abusive posts about the rest of the world. It's getting one sided and we're losing our collective objectivity, if we ever had one.
My sucking up comments was a reflection of how I've seen you develop through your interaction with Americans on this board. In the start, you were more critical and objective. Now, you use stronger and stronger words, often with emotional content, to argue about something that is best seen in an objective light. And decidedly from a pro American position.
Nothing wrong with being pro American or pro whatever, as long as one is objective. MY feeling is jsut that you're losing your objectivity, wanting to replace it with a feeeling of being 'one in the popular gang'.
You got a good mind, that's what so annoying about it. You don't NEED a black and white world. Yer mind can handle shades of grey. Most people are unable to handle grayness, and for almost everyone, black and white is more comfortable. But it ain't accurate.
No qualms with you personally. Just don't like to see you as a cheerleader. And I call it as I see it, even if it ain't very dimplomatic.
Traitor! We saved your bellybutton during WWII!!! :mad:
And we visit Europe to see all the graves of our soldiers :(
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dowding... I would have no problem meeting you for a beer except that I don't drink.. I am sure that we would have a good discussion. I also did not use the internet till flight sims.
I don't hate the british. I have been there and liked the people. I hate a lot of things that are british just as you hate things that are American. I think that it is simply more obvious on you because you are on a BB that is..... American. I think that most Americans don't really think agbout england or europe in general much but I guess it is hard to ignore the U.S.
I guess most of us are kinda shocked when people in europe that we don't even think about.... seem to dislike us so much and for such strange reasons...They actually care what we do with firearms in our own country? Things like that.
Beetles threads were probly a shock to a lot of Americans who never really thought people in england might be envious. We may come off as defensive but.... I believe that allmost all posts are very defensive also (and I paraphrase)"yeah... but we were the greatest... beset by huge obstacles... only the british coulda"
Plus... well... it's just so damn easy to jerk your chain.
lazs
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Oh... twowolf... If you are born here or naturalized or.... simply feel you are (IMO) you are an American.. I don't think it can be proven that the American indian was the first to be here. I know a lot of different Americans with a lot of different accents.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hangtime
In time you may come to discover that the AH BBS natives will at least give yer dismembered carcass a decent burial after they rip your heart out and eat it.
Hang, can I have your permission to include this sentence in my signature?
:)
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Originally posted by Animal
Traitor! We saved your bellybutton during WWII!!! :mad:
And we visit Europe to see all the graves of our soldiers :(
ROTFL Animal...
Was thinking "there's something missing in this thread"...
;) :D
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Animal & Naso I know you're intelligent guys.
Can you help me with a history project?
I'm looking for evidence of a powerful nation, a nation not involved in starting major wars, that left so many dead soldiers in so many different foreign countries yet sent the soldiers not a conquerers but as liberators.
Nations that, in the wake of the conflicts, left free and independent behind them when their troops left?
Can you help me make a list of say... ten such nations in the history of man?
Thanks in advance.
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Originally posted by Toad
Animal & Naso I know you're intelligent guys.
Can you help me with a history project?
I'm looking for evidence of a powerful nation, a nation not involved in starting major wars, that left so many dead soldiers in so many different foreign countries yet sent the soldiers not a conquerers but as liberators.
Nations that, in the wake of the conflicts, left free and independent behind them when their troops left?
Can you help me make a list of say... ten such nations in the history of man?
Thanks in advance.
Sure, mate :)
1) NONE
2) NONE
and so on.
If you want to discuss why, i am open, but i am a little tired to become in instants the "public US enemy".
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Thank you, Naso.
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You are welcome.
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It certainly makes it easier for me to evaluate your future posts. That is why I thank you.
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Oh yes Toad, and the US has been a stalwart defender of freedom since WWII. Always it has been humanitys best that is intended by the American administrations, and never have they given up a worthy goal of democracy for national interests. :D :D
Allende would agree with that, I am sure.
Notice: this is not a critique of Americans or America. It is a reality check; the US, as any other great power before them, has national interests as the top priority. Smae with EVERY other country in the world. if something altruistic can be obtained while securing national security, that is most excellent.
I agree with the human values of freedom, democracy and so forth. I also appreciate what the US has done to advance these causes. Yet I refuse to be blind to the fact that US administrations aren't altruistic entities in place to make the world a better place. They're there to make *the US* a better place, and if other places also are improved by their actions, all the better. Democracy and freedom aren't American inventions. The US has done much to advance it though, and occasionally done some dirty things to supress it (Allende is one example).
Same with Denmark, Sweden, the UK and whatnot.
Just want us to remain objective here.
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I disagree Santa. of course.
I think we've done more for others with far less "national interest".
Objectively name some others that have done what we have done then Santa. Even with our missteps, faults and mistakes which we have, of course, made.
% of GNP hasn't been the most valuable thing this nation has given others by a long shot.
Thanks in advance.
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Ohh what a long thread.
Great reading though.
Hortlund, very eloquent, although I too must take issue with (don't we always)
You know, I have to wonder if the Iraqis, or the ones squatting in caves in Afghanistan could ever even begin to dream about starting a space program, a program of exploration, to reach for the stars.
If you think about it, it is probably the Iraqis we have to thank for modern astronomy, without which we would be sending up spacecraft to pierce the plane of the fixed stars, or slow the suns orbit around the earth. It was partly their dreaming and wondering that set mankind upon this path three or four thousand years ago. Without doubt the US and the USSR ran with the baton recently, tossing it between, with the US eventually being the only runner (in manned exploration at least).
And forget reaching for the stars until we have solved some more theoretical problems on the ground (like how to exceed light speed).
Dowding, I owe you a pint. There I am reading through all these heartfelt s and general emetic love-in stuff and wallop! :
I think I actually might vomit.
What a relief.
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Originally posted by Toad
It certainly makes it easier for me to evaluate your future posts. That is why I thank you.
Indipendently to the decision you have made about the evaluation of my posts (advice: before to start this kind of examinations, please say it, I will shave myself and bring my best suit on), you know I respect you and your opinions, even if I usually disagree, as I do with almost every poster here, even if they become personal.
I hope this post pass thru you before you activate the squelch function.
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Bounder - I probably would have
too, if Hortlund hadn't turned his post into a swipe at the unwashed, intellectually inferior Iraqis and Afghanis. It just ruined his whole post for me and stopped any sentiments of 'yeah, that's right', dead in their tracks.
I must have been feeling especially like the archetypal Yorkshireman that day.
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Hmmm...from the outside looking in StSanta?
My perspective from the inside looking out is one of frustration with the administrations undaunted outpouring of resources to other nations and allowing internal problems to fester without attention.
One would think a balance could be struck between the opposing viewpoints, and I hope one day it is.
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Hehe..I hope mypost is not misconstrued as a complaint to the U.S. helping other nations. It was not intended to be that.
I was strictly speaking to the perspectives each person views the overall situations with. I find it interesting.
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Naso, I haven't ever squelched anyone on this BBS. I enjoy reading the various viewpoints.
Well, I did squelch Weazel once for about 30 seconds and then I went back and unsquelched him. I rarely agree with him (but it happens) but I always try to read what he has to say. The childish name calling stuff always loses my interest quickly though.
I do, like everyone else, build a view of another particular poster by what he posts; by the "self" he builds here through his words.
Your recent posts have altered my view of you, that I will admit.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Bounder - I probably would have too, if Hortlund hadn't turned his post into a swipe at the unwashed, intellectually inferior Iraqis and Afghanis. It just ruined his whole post for me and stopped any sentiments of 'yeah, that's right', dead in their tracks.
I must have been feeling especially like the archetypal Yorkshireman that day.
I'm a long way from being a Yorkshireman myself ('Posh avacado' will give you some indication of my status) but I recognise the punctual sentiment as very common round here, and a good thing too; after all that's one of the reasons I left the south in the first place. That and the beer.
Anyway yes, where was I?
Americans, for the Space Program
('weapons in space?' appearing in another thread entirely)
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Originally posted by TWOLF
Second, unless you are a Certified descendent of American Natives (less then 5% of the population of the U.S.) Then you are not an American. You are a U.S. Citizen. If your looking in the mirror and a White, Black, Yellow, or a Brown face is looking back then you are a European 70% of all U.S. Citizens (White) 20% African (Black) and 15+% from Asia, and the Middle East. +/- 5% is pretty accurate. Look it up.
I don’t care if you got off the boat 5 minutes ago, or 500 years ago your still NOT an American. Your blood is as European, African, Asian, or what ever as the folks that are born on those continents.
That goes for the “Euro’s” too. Stop acting like children!
WE ARE ALL THE SAME, WE ARE ALL HUMAN. There are bigger things in life then He said she said. Seven Amazing lives passed from us on Saturday, from Europe, Asia, and Africa. All seven Human. All seven working toward a Human goal. The quest for space.
I have a problem with your "native American" premise. There is no such thing as a true native American. All people on this continent got here by virtue of emmigration. It matters not to you is it is 5 minutes or 500 years huh. Well the first immigrants got here much more than 500 years ago but NO people originated on this continent. The same can be said for Europe as well. Now if you want to speak of Africa then we have a common ground.
As far as I am concerned a Native American is one who was born here of native born parents. If you can't handle that then too bad as by your own definition there is no such thing as a true native here.
America is a "melting pot" and was made the country it is by the blending of ALL the peoples that made their home and work place here. I am proud of that. I don't consider claiming that your ancestore were one royalty or somehow special makes you a better person. It is how you carry YOURSELF and YOUR OWN accomplishments that make you special. Your parents gave you your genes and may or may not have raised you. What you do with that material is what makes you worthy of respect.
I am a native American AND a citizen. I placed my self in harms way for my country and community because that is what I wanted to do and felt was right. If you want to consider me less of an American because I of mixed heritage Both sides have at least a little European background) or that I cannot trace my family back 1000 years on this continent then you have to drop more than just 95% of the folks here. Frankly since my heritage is of little concern to how I live my life your standards of being a native are a little insulting and very arrogant IMO.
I realise you may not have intended this but that was the result as soon as I read your post, both times I read it.
As far as I am concerned, there is simply no such thing as a "pure" race on this little dustball we live on. We are ALL a mongrel mix somewhere in our background.
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Originally posted by Toad
Naso, I haven't ever squelched anyone on this BBS. I enjoy reading the various viewpoints.
Well, I did squelch Weazel once for about 30 seconds and then I went back and unsquelched him. I rarely agree with him (but it happens) but I always try to read what he has to say. The childish name calling stuff always loses my interest quickly though.
I do, like everyone else, build a view of another particular poster by what he posts; by the "self" he builds here through his words.
Your recent posts have altered my view of you, that I will admit.
Toad, I dont feel changed, I have always been an Amurrica basher, intending, with the word "Amurrica", the concept that I dislike some kind of attitudes the "ugly americans" have (remember that thread in the old days?).
Something has changed in a precise day: 9/11.
It was a shock for me, and I was worried for my cousine that worked in WTC, (she was at home that day, she was pregnant), I was shocked....
Has been a huge event, terrible, horrible, something that can change an entire nation.
The change I see scare me.
In the first moments after the tragedy I was "happy" to see a pride nation upping again after this "kick in the balls", heroes working hard to recover, the newyorkers looking straight ahead and raising again, I searched for sticks with "I love NY" or NYPD or NYFD signs to stick on my car or shirts to wear.
I tought "now it's the moment that the US citizen will stop and guess: "WHY?""
"Now it's the moment that from a tragedy, the humanity will find the strenght to stop for a while and ask herself: where I am going?"
I was wrong.
I was naive.
The reaction I saw was rage, hate, will to kill anyone, the US was transformed in a ferocious beast that was searching for a target to hit, the interreligious hate was growing.
With me or against me.
Black or white.
The extremes.
No good, no good.
I stepped back in a corner, astonished by this hate, the same hate, with the same magnitude that pushed those idiots to crash themselves and other thousend in the WTC.
The same hate that a lot of people in the world has for us, Western Countries.
Even if it's dead, the bastard has won, Osama has reached his victory, has catalyzed a reaction that can trasform the US in that evil entity he painted to his allies.
An entity resolved to use the force, directly, openly, to reach his own advantage, an entity that it's ready to call one of the greatest former allies, the one doomed to become "glowing glass" in the first 24 hours of the 3rd WW, "coward and traitor", only because is questioning the principle behind the preeventive war, or at least it's asking to do it in the UN egida.
I am not worried about my personal safety, no more than usual, and not for my country, since we are allies (even if someone it's questioning this, here), I fear for world's future, for our children's future, for their freedom.
This hate atmosfere has, historical, been always the best breeding base for new dictators, for new evil in this world.
In the last times I posted again in some of this "hot" threads, with the same tongue in cheek, or with the same sting-like attitude, maybe a little bitter than before, but the reactions are always rude, hard, sometime wicked.
I understand why, the pain it's still here in me too, but the hate...
No, I still cannot feel the hate, I cannot hate the Iraqi child, or woman, or man, cannot hate the Israeli or the Palestinian.
And I cannot (as I never had) hate the American.
When I post here, I imagine myself in the mytical "o'club", where you can discuss, even discuss hard, screaming each other, then, after a while, drink a beer together and laugh about something funny.
I firmly believe that there are values, basic values in the Humanity that are common, Love, good, family, will for a better future, friendship, values that are superior to ANY flag.
Values that I put above my country, above politics.
Values that are under a flag that dont exist, the flag of Humankind.
The flag of the entire world.
I am a dreamer, yes.
Jesus was a dreamer like me.
But the trick to change water in wine still fail me. :D
With this post I have gained for sure a lot of people that will have fun of me, but it's almost a year that I am willing to post something like this, and I am so stupid to post it here.
So, throw the stones.
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Naso,
The obvious counterpoint to your....... assumptions....... is Afghanistan.
Clearly harboring those who plotted and executed 9/11, the US went after them.
Now look at Afghanistan. Are the common people better off or worse off than before?
And when the US troops finally leave, will Afghanis be in command of their own country, their own government and their own destiny?
Absolutely, they will. If not, it won't be because US soldiers "conquered" them.
And that... along with a lot of other previous examples... is what raised my eyebrows about your
Sure, mate
1) NONE
2) NONE
and so on.
post.
We've made mistakes, most certainly. But any objective evaluation cannot show the post-war deployment of US troops in the role of "conquerers".
If you can't see that......
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ya know i usaully do not respond to these threads, i do not like to argue politics that i do not understand, basically meaning till you walked a mile in my shoes shut the fU%^ up, and till ive walked a mile in yours i will shut the FU%^ up, hortland
and ty for your comments , stsanta and dowding bite me same ole toejam different day
" yawn " yall both are boring the toejam out of me, maveric your comment about native americans is BS and you know it, the simple thing is i dont bash your country and your people so why must you bash mine? you may call me small or simple minded ... have you looked in the damn mirror lately, and to any one concerned i drive around in my pickup with my rifle on my gunrack listening to Born to be Wild on my 8track player
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Toad, I wont answer your rethorical question, but here is something:
joke Audio pronunciation of joke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jk)
n.
1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
4. Informal.
1. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.
2. An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.
v. joked, jok·ing, jokes
v. intr.
1. To tell or play jokes; jest.
2. To speak in fun; be facetious.
;)
As for making it easier for you to evaluate my future posts, here is a tip: dont try. Ignore me. Because you obvously take this way too seriously and I seem to be too insensitive to care.
A joke I make does not say anything about my future posts and the way you have to evaluate them. If anything, evaluate them independently, my opinions on a subject do not dictate my opinions on another subject.
I'm not as one-sided as many here.
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Originally posted by Toad
Naso,
[snip]
If you can't see that......
Your question was:
"I'm looking for evidence of a powerful nation, a nation not involved in starting major wars, that left so many dead soldiers in so many different foreign countries yet sent the soldiers not a conquerers but as liberators.
Nations that, in the wake of the conflicts, left free and independent behind them when their troops left? "
My answer was:
None.
Afganistan?
I'll let you answer by yourself, with another question:
Why USA attacked Talibans and Afghanistan?
a) to free the poor people and act as liberators.
b) to search and kill OBL and his friends and act as avengers.
Pick one.
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b leads to a.
********
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Same with Iraq.
Kill Saddam, remove his thugs, take his weapons, avenge all terrorist acts he has been involved in
positive side effect:
leads to Democracy in Iraq, freedom for Iraqis, possible breakout of Kurdistan, no more embargo, start of foreign aid.
etc
Same with N Korea, Sudan, Syria, *add whatever 3rd world nation*
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Naso.. in a nutshell; americas position, slowly so the the dimmer points of light out there can catch the drift..
americans are pissed.
it ain't a good idea to piss america off.
americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.
but; now we're pissed.
....ain't a good idea to piss us off. We'll park a carrier group or four in front of your bristo and pound the toejam outta yah.
I'm wondering how long it's gonna take for the rest of the world to figure out the one unrelenting, repeated and demonstrated so many times point of american diplomacy..
americans are chumps.. you can steal from 'em, lie to 'em, screw their women and call 'em names. But don't bomb 'em. That tends to piss 'em off.
it ain't a good idea to piss america off.
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hehe Hang,
I would also like to point out that we don't need to be the biggest baddest one on the block either. History is repleat with instances of the US going toe to toe with powers that could have kicked our butts. (Little War in 1812 for example, Spanish in 1898, Even WW2 which we were ill prepared for).
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Naso,
Hortlund beat me to it and probably said it better than I would have.
Nonetheless the point remains. We're not out for conquest. We almost always leave places better than we found them when our troops arrived.
Beyond that, when everything turns to dung and the bullets start to fly...... even you know where the world turns for help.
I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.
But I do remember.
I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.
I told you long ago I was a near total isolationist. 9/11 changed that a bit. I still want all US troops within our borders as soon as possible.
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You see that's what I don't understand about you Toad. You've always seemed intelligent and thoughtful, yet you make a statement like this:
I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.
But I do remember.
I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.
There are two conclusions that can be drawn from this:
1) You're trying to remember individuals on a BBS, that are more or less anonymous and you are unlikely to meet, so you can in some way single out those individuals for 'special treatment'. But that's stupid so;
2) You are trying to form an opinion of an ENTIRE nation based on the postings of a few individuals from said country on an internet BBS
No.2 is almost as ridiculous as No.1. America contains people of such widely varying views, and I bet you could find Americans who wouldn't be able to get on or even have a civil conversation. Don't you think that might be true of other countries? Therefore for you to seriously suggest that it would be worthwhile to form an opinion of a country containing millions of people based on the comments of a few individuals is bizarre. To seriously suggest thay your sons do the same is extremely bizarre.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Naso.. in a nutshell; americas position, slowly so the the dimmer points of light out there can catch the drift..
americans are pissed.
it ain't a good idea to piss america off.
americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.
but; now we're pissed.
....ain't a good idea to piss us off. We'll park a carrier group or four in front of your bristo and pound the toejam outta yah.
I'm wondering how long it's gonna take for the rest of the world to figure out the one unrelenting, repeated and demonstrated so many times point of american diplomacy..
americans are chumps.. you can steal from 'em, lie to 'em, screw their women and call 'em names. But don't bomb 'em. That tends to piss 'em off.
it ain't a good idea to piss america off.
Nothing to say about this, I agree, it's a good and honest paint of the US, and one of the reasons why I have this strange dual-opposite feeling with US (like and dislike).
BTW, you did'nt answer to my request to include your sentence in my signature (look some post above).
:)
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Originally posted by Toad
Naso,
Hortlund beat me to it and probably said it better than I would have.
Nonetheless the point remains. We're not out for conquest. We almost always leave places better than we found them when our troops arrived.
I did'nt say was for conquest (Afganistan) I'd say revenge.
And I am not expressing a moral judgement.
Beyond that, when everything turns to dung and the bullets start to fly...... even you know where the world turns for help.
I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.
Ok, if you feel better believing I hate you, be happy with that.
You are wrong, but nothing I can say will change your mind.
White or black.
With me or against me.
But I do remember.
I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.
I told you long ago I was a near total isolationist. 9/11 changed that a bit. I still want all US troops within our borders as soon as possible.
Here you become threatening, for an entire nation.
In my profile there's my true name, I will sacrifice myself to save innocent lives.
No more space for different ideas, the only ideas accepted must be in US line and expressed by an US citizen.
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Oh, and what is the next step?
Send my name to the FBI?
To the CIA?
Next time I want to visit my friends in US I will have my visa denied?
For the AH con too?
Or I have to fear you beating me if I show in the CON?
See where this hate it's going?
I can expect Grunhertz calling me "communist @@##@" or Hortlund to sit on his throne and pontificate.
But I guessed you was a man that can hold a discussion with cold blood and without blind rage.
Things are changed, but dont accuse me for it.
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Wrong conclusions.
I remember attitudes, not individuals. And the attitudes are not uncommon on this BBS, the International news media (not just US outlets) or in some of the people I personally meet from other countries.
These experiences have reinforced my isolationism; I expose my sons to examples of it found here and in the international news media. As I said their day will come when they have to vote and decide, as it will for their sons.
To me, it hasn't been worth it.
I see no reason for US troops to be deployed abroad. It isn't appreciated for long, no matter what the mission.
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Your initial implication was that there are NO armies that are sent for liberation rather than conquest. I beg to differ. We've had our missteps but I'll take the record of the US over any other.
Even Italy, home to my paternal grandfather. After the Italians did in Mussolini, the Germans simply took over. Who got them to leave, eh? And, when it was all over, who then left Italy without making it a colony or subjugating it under a foreign government?
I don't believe you hate me or any or all Americans. I do think you have unrealisitic expectations about us. I do think you're predisposed to be against anything we are doing.
AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.
Now? I personally couldn't care less whether you, Italy or all Europeans are with us or against us. For those that care to research, you'll find I am not in favor of war with Iraq at this time. In fact, I will be writing my governmental representatives shortly expressing my opinion to that effect.
I'm not threatening at all........ unless you consider it a threat to personally become even more isolationist, to allow my sons to read what the Euros here are posting and encouraging them to isolationism as well and praying that THEIR sons will also be isolationist.
There's space for all ideas. That is basically "the American way". But I don't have to agree with them... you see, in our way I get to have my own ideas too... just like you.
But along with the expression of ideas, there's a catch. People may actually take you at their word. And if they disagree with you, they may reallocate their priorities and resources to people or ideas that the majority feels would be more beneficial.
And that's what I hope will happen here in the US and what I impress on my sons.
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I have to laugh here Naso. You really have a great imagination.
I don't hate you a bit; there's not a bit of blind rage. You have your views, I have mine and we totally disagree.
If you came to the con, I'd talk with you, not fight you. We'd still probably disagree, though.
Would I buy you a beer... maybe, maybe not. In the old days, I'd have said "absolutely"; but as you said, these are not the old days. There have been things said here about Americans that I really DO remember.
Your relationship with the US government is your relationship, not mine.
I think this is a great example of how far off your personal stereotype of US citizens is.
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And if they disagree with you, they may reallocate their priorities and resources to people or ideas that the majority feels would be more beneficial.
You really expect to find a country that agrees with your own individual beliefs? A massive group of other individuals each with their own set of opinions? That's very naive. Even America is a disparate collection of individuals, often with hugely polarised opinions.
Yet again you mention the binary logic of Bush. Sometimes, there is room for disagreement between allies.
Good luck in your isolationism. It could never work and I think if the US seriously went ahead with it the consequences would be catastrophic. Maybe not immediately, but eventually the world would coming knocking at the US' door. The world is getting smaller and resources getting scarcer - the US cannot afford to withdraw from the world stage. It can also not expect to get complete agreement from all allies, all of the time. Sometimes, the national interests of the US will not coincide with those of European states - but that's no reason to end all cooperation. What would happen to trade agreements, in your total isolation?
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Give it up guys..
Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. USA is such a large country that it's easy to forget it's still just a small part of the planet.
If you grow up in a bubble you most likely continue to live in it.
When someone tries to look out of the bubble, all they see is thier own reflection. This is what is clearly happening here.
I wish people would realise there is no need for country bashing. Each countries have thier good and bad points and each of the citizens have to live with them. Often pride and nationalistic people have a hard time accepting the facts if someone from outside points out things that are not so good in the system. It's natural to be defensive.. Too bad the discussion usually degrades to a really low level.
Calm down guys and try to learn to understand eachothers. Knowledge is the key to tolerance. Tolerance is the key to peace.
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I'm perfectly calm, my friend. :)
I think you'll find Toad has spent a lot of life away from the US. He's been out of any bubble for a long time, which is why I'm curious as to why he should want to create one now. His choice, of course.
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Originally posted by Toad
Your initial implication was that there are NO armies that are sent for liberation rather than conquest. I beg to differ. We've had our missteps but I'll take the record of the US over any other.
Ok.
Even Italy, home to my paternal grandfather. After the Italians did in Mussolini, the Germans simply took over. Who got them to leave, eh? And, when it was all over, who then left Italy without making it a colony or subjugating it under a foreign government?
There's a lot to discuss on this issue, I wish to know if this is a generalization, or you believe it's so simple as you say.
Only one thing: Here, 4-5 Km from my house there is the Nato HQ for Southern Europe (Yes I am in the central part of an huge target for the old Red Army Ballistic Missiles), in this base there are soldiers and officers from all the countries of the Alliance.
3 Km away, about 1-2 Km from my house, there's a huge installation, guarded by Marines and MPs, the name is NSO, Naval Support Organization, and is open only for U.S. military personnel, even if can be obtained, by the US command a permit to enter.
Guess why?
Oh, an hint: on official administration territory charts it's called "US occupation force installation" and it's due to be occupied until the 2042 (99 years).
So maybe, maybe, the things are not as simple as you seem to suggest.
BTW, I am amazed looking how many US posters have some Ita ancestor, I imagined the percentage was inferior (I know it's not statistically valid).
I don't believe you hate me or any or all Americans. I do think you have unrealisitic expectations about us. I do think you're predisposed to be against anything we are doing.
I thank you to accept that, maybe I have unrealistic expectation from any people, and I have suspects on anything, ANY government, mine or yours, will do.
AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.
You can bet your balls, in that case there will be no doubt about allies, and you will be surprised how many you will count on you side.
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Originally posted by Toad
I have to laugh here Naso. You really have a great imagination.
I don't hate you a bit; there's not a bit of blind rage. You have your views, I have mine and we totally disagree.
If you came to the con, I'd talk with you, not fight you. We'd still probably disagree, though.
Pheew I feel better now, you know I am not a big guy.
Would I buy you a beer... maybe, maybe not. In the old days, I'd have said "absolutely";
I will still "absolutely" buy one to you, if you will accept it.
....I think this is a great example of how far off your personal stereotype of US citizens is.
I was exagerating to put in evidence the hidden violence in your words, violence that it's still there.
And I am talking about government and some aspects of general culture, not generalizating the single citizens (remember I know few of US people, of different types).
Oh, maybe now I understand, maybe I used forms that let you think I was doing personal attacks.
My mistake.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Give it up guys..
Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. USA is such a large country that it's easy to forget it's still just a small part of the planet.
If you grow up in a bubble you most likely continue to live in it.
When someone tries to look out of the bubble, all they see is thier own reflection. This is what is clearly happening here.
I wish people would realise there is no need for country bashing. Each countries have thier good and bad points and each of the citizens have to live with them. Often pride and nationalistic people have a hard time accepting the facts if someone from outside points out things that are not so good in the system. It's natural to be defensive.. Too bad the discussion usually degrades to a really low level.
Calm down guys and try to learn to understand eachothers. Knowledge is the key to tolerance. Tolerance is the key to peace.
Eh eh, siaf, I guess you are new to this BB, btw dont worry, it's hot, sometime there's stuff flying across the room, but each one of us have a life outside this "simil.life" (well... almost everyone :) ), and bigger priorities. :)
Anyway, I your post.
Nationalism it's bad.
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AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.
We all know what this means right? Let's pray things will never escalate to this point although the religious fundamentalists are praying the opposite (book example of ignorance caused by religious aspirations.)
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Hangtime wrote:
americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.
Bahahaha, the US ranks a distant 22'nd (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp) with regards to foreign aid in percentage of BNP terms.
USA: 0.11% of BNP. Even Greece gives more.
Denmark, at first place, spends a whopping ten times more: 1.01 per cent, down from 1.11.
So we're much nicer people than you. We're more generous too. And it's been a while since we killed people of other nations in an emotional outburst because we were pissed.
You suck, you cheapskates. Deth to Amreeka! Deth to Bu(ll)shitler!
:D :D :D
This has been a tongue-in-cheek comment. If you're unable to grasp that, quite possible you are suffering from the head-up-the-arse syndrome, a disease that is related to tongue-in-cheek through marriage.
Toad, I don't believe isolationism would work, for several reasons. One, whatever happens outside the US will affect the US. During the start of WWII, the US had an isolationist stance. Still, they were attacked by Japan and got dragged into the war. An earlier intervention en masse might have shortened the war considerably. OTOH, the American public wouldn't have been behind that.
Secondly, the US have massive economic interests around the world. Taking an isolationist stance will mean loss of goodwill and loss of revenue. If the US goes out with its mighty armed forces to secure some interest abroad without the cooperation of the country in question, it'd be bloody. Certainly, things like oil pipelines would be hard to protect.
Other nations would not be isolationists - they'd fill the vacuum left by the US. There'd be fierce battling for this lucrative position, and some nations will win. Their economies will grow, as will their military might. Sooner or later some country unfriendly to the US will rise in power; all the slights American administrations have ever caused (or are perceived to have caused, maybe this is more important) will come back and bite the US in the arse. The enemies of the US regard the US as arrogant and imperialistic. This arrogance is also seen at some times by US allies - the with us or against us, the black and white binary world view. The arrogance results in a humiliation of allied friends - and those friends are just as proud as are Americans. If you have a friend who isn't very good with the ladies and you're great with them, you aren't a very good friend if you say 'hahah, you're such an ugly little man. No one wants you. Now watch me as I go screw the girl you're in love with - just because I CAN'.
The politicians, being hungry for power, aren't likely to want to let go of their influence of world affairs. It's not in the interest of the US to lose influence or income. And what many Americans may see as 'liberation' or 'struggle for democracy', the natives of whatever country in question may seem as unwanted American intervention, done to secure regional influence or economic interests. The US did great things in WWI and WWII, but this does not mean that the US is exempt from scrutiny. There are numerous cases where the US has acted in a questionable manner to secure their own interests - Vietnam is one, and the selling of biological and chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80s another. Helping Pinochet gaining power, overthrowing a democratically elected leader, and then standing mute while said person exterminates thousands of people is yet another. The Contras deal wasn't particularly intelligent either. Just examples; most of the dirty work was done by the CIA without the consent of the US people, but it still was the US who produced these agents.
'Yes he's a son of a squeak, but he is OUR son of a squeak' was once said by a US official. It's with this attitude many opressive regimes were directly or indirectly supported by the US. So, the US has left some places worse after they left.
By far, I believe it's great that we have a superpower like the US. Sure, Americans can be black-and-white at times. Aye, they can be arrogant sons of squeakes. Yes, they're a bit too cocky and they gloat a bit too much, but that is expected of a nation that still is just a toddler. They share our values, and they protect them. It's a democratic place full of nice people. The average American, maybe due to the rather binary world view, has a strong moral sense of right and wrong, and the will to defend the weak. I don't think I would want any other nation to have all that power. Well, maybe Denmark. We'd socialize the toejam outta it and lose it eventually.
Toad, I can understand that it sucks not to have any gratitude from the countries the US HAS helped. OTOH, expecting gratitude to mean automatic acception of all US foreign policy decisions is taking it too far. There's bound to be disagreement when US national interests collide with European, Asian, Australian etc national interests. And that is better resolved through cooperation than isolationism, IMHO. Today it is impossible to live in a little bubble of ones own making - we're ALL interdependent. If all trade with the US was stopped, the US would have a crumbling economy and a new superpower would emerge. Same for DK, except the superpower bit - we still have a way to go there. Maybe we'll be as powerful as New York in a few hundred years.
The US might do well to ease up on the influencing of world affairs. But I doubt a truly isolationist stance would do the US much good in the long run.
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ROTFL Santa!!
You bring some sanity in this dark thread (in me too :) )
Thanks :)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Give it up guys..
They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard.
I wish people would realise there is no need for country bashing.
Me too. :rolleyes:
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"Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world "
maybe... but ya gotta admit.... it can be a very very large and divirse "bubble".
I guess if say.... italy, ever becomes and important nation we will be sorry we didn't spend more time trying to understand. Till then... I don't like scooters that much anyway but I do like the climate.... mostly.
lazs
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Busy day here, I'll answer a few and then I must be about RL business.
I am perhaps not as clear as I'd like to think I am.
I don't expect or require that any "country" or "massive group of individuals" agree with my individual beliefs.
Nor do I have to agree with theirs.
I don't speak for all Americans, nor would I ever try to do so. I speak for myself alone.
However, I can, to some degree, influence my sons and my friends and they can "pass it on" their sons and friends. I can and do write to my governmental representatives and share my views there as well.
I personally do not feel that American involvement in the various "world crisis" scenarios that we have participated in since WW2 have been worth it.
Had I been given the decision, the rest of the world would have had to settle their problems without US troops becoming involved.
A very different world would have resulted; I doubt there's any that would dispute that. Some may say "better" some may say "worse" but I think all would agree "different".
The isolation I would propose would be that of Washington in his Farewell Address which I posted here long, long ago. I'll requote the applicable part immediately after this post. I feel it's near perfect.
We have absolutely no need to be militarily active around the globe EXCEPT in the direct defense of our liberty against those that have struck at our nation.
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Our detached & distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one People, under an efficient government, the period is not far off, when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or War, as our interest guided by justice shall Counsel.
What a prescient man. We've essentially arrived at that state, Al-Qaeda not withstanding.
Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and [p. 27 image] prosperity in the toils of European Ambition, Rivalship, Interest, Humour or Caprice?
Why indeed? Why didn't we listen to him?If we had, we wouldn't be dealing with 9/11
'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances,[note] with any portion of the foreign World--So far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it--for let me not be understood as capable of patronising infidility to existing engagements, (I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy)--I repeat it therefore, Let those engagements. be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.
Right again, George. We failed to listen and now we pay the price.
Taking care always to keep ourselves, by suitable establishments, on a respectably defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.
Harmony, liberal intercourse with all Nations, are recommended by policy, humanity and interest. But even our Commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand: neither seeking nor granting exclusive favours or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing & deversifying by gentle means the streams of Commerce, but forcing nothing;
How I wish we had not strayed from this advice. How I wish we would return to it.
establishing with Powers so disposed--in order to give to trade a stable course, to define the rights of our Merchants, and to enable the Government to support them--conventional rules of intercourse; [p. 28 image] the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, & liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view, that 'tis folly in one Nation to look for disinterested favors from another--that it must pay with a portion of its Independence for whatever it may accept under that character--that by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favours and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more.
And one need look no further than the recent threads here to see his wisdom borne out yet again.
There can be no greater error than to expect, or calculate upon real favours from Nation to Nation. 'Tis an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
Amen, George. I believe I am cured and I have discarded it.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I think you'll find Toad has spent a lot of life away from the US. He's been out of any bubble for a long time, which is why I'm curious as to why he should want to create one now. His choice, of course.
Yes, I have. In my ~ 7 years in the USAF I was deployed operationally performing Reconnaissance missions approximately 180-220 days per year.
I've visited most parts of Europe multiple times since then as well.
I simply no longer see the value of that kind of sacrifice for an unappreciative world.
For some of you youngsters, WW2 is "Ancient History".
Not for me. My father fought that war in the Pacific. My 8 Uncles fought that war around the globe. One died to a German mortar round at St. Lo shortly after D-Day. The others luckily made it home. From a week behind German lines at Bastogne. From standing between the Maoists and Nationaists in China while trying to fight the Japanese. One from England in support of the 8th AF, another from support of the 5th in the Pacific. One from a SeaBee battalion in the Pacific. From a Quartermaster job in the States in the case of the oldest one.
Other Americans that fought that war were my Scoutmasters, my teachers, my unit leaders. The men that shaped my youth and made me who I am today.
60 years gone. And how are they viewed now? I've seen enough here to draw my own conclusion.
Enough for me to tell my sons "never again."
Angry? Nope? In a rage? Nope.
Merely being a realist and doing a "cost/benefit" analysis under my parameters.
And the result is I don't think its worth it. Neither did Washington and he was absolutely right.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. .
Sorry.....Stud, it's not just Americans.
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Do you have any doubt that the NSO will leave when the date arrives? Unless BOTH nations reach a mutually agreeable new date? You don't think the US would use armed force to keep it do you? If so, we really have nothing to talk about.
Also, in post-war Italy, after the occupation... how was your government decided, eh? Free elections? Still going on are they?
And as I said, I'll talk with you but I doubt I'd drink with you.
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Santa, when writing all that I hope you remembered that at this time I am not in favor of using US troops to invade Iraq for any reason. Not "disarmament", not "regime change", not anything.
Iraq's a sovereign nation and at present there has been no display of evidence that would validate "just war".
So, when you assume that I'm saying what I'm saying because of "automatic acception of all US foreign policy decisions" nothing could be further from the truth.
I think quite a bit of our foreign policy is totally porked. I don't agree with much of it myself.
That, however, has nothing to do with what I'm saying in the above posts.
Enough for now.. time to do real work.
The rest of you are cleared in hot; I'll read it all later tonight.
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Toad, if you live in a rich country, if you live in the only Superpower left, if you live in the winning nation, the nation that can wage preeventive war against anyone, the nation that can decide the future of the world (and the no-future, given the mass of WMD she still have)....
It's because your past and present govrnments have decided it is worth.
And have been worth it for the countries jumped in the bandwagon (like mine).
The matter it's not to feel guilty or sorry, just to accept the fact.
Isolate, if you want, you will discover soon how much this "external projection" have to do with the richness of USA.
But this is Utopia (and you know, i am an expert in this :( ).
Somebody else will decide.
And they dont care about what we think.... or, better, they take care about what they made we think.
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Toad, out of interest: What kind of appreciation are you expecting to get? State level? Personal level?
Didn't all the europeans bow to you and make way on the highway when you visited or what's the deal? :)
If you spent most of your time in uniform, I can really see how you might think that people didn't appreciate you, because most probably they didn't.
Think deep into your recent civillian visits, how were they? Did you leave outside the tourist buses and hotels to visit a real family and get to know real people instead of monuments of dead people?
The one thing most of you seem to miss is that the europeans really can't think that US cavalry rode in with trumpets and saved the whole of europe.. That's simply because every country was fighting at max before the US intervened and continued to do so afterwards. Therefore the euro's consider the war joint effort (which it was) and I can't find anyone not giving US the credit for that it deserves.
As what goes for modern day policies, nobody can really expect that because US gave the country Marshall money 50 years ago (mainly to ensure they wouldn't fall into Soviet camp) they'd act as US puppet governments? It's not about disrespecting or being ungrateful, it's about being sovereign countries with a freedom of decision. Wasn't that the aim in the first place?
If US would expect total allegiance for the support it has been giving, it would be no better than the evil communists who 'liberated' countries from Hitler.
I don't think you want to go that way.
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Excellent post Toad. Ole George was a pretty smart man. Maybe it's not too late to heed his advice.
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Originally posted by Toad
I personally do not feel that American involvement in the various "world crisis" scenarios that we have participated in since WW2 have been worth it.
You've finally said something that I disagree with Toad . I think that South Korea, Nicaragua, El Salvador and any of the other countries that we've kept free were all worth it .
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Originally posted by Toad
Do you have any doubt that the NSO will leave when the date arrives? Unless BOTH nations reach a mutually agreeable new date? You don't think the US would use armed force to keep it do you? If so, we really have nothing to talk about.
C'mon, mister, you are calling me stupid.
Anyway, no, I dont have doubt on it.
(oh, anyway the NSO is moving in another place, a better place, it need more space).
Also, in post-war Italy, after the occupation... how was your government decided, eh? Free elections? Still going on are they?
And as I said, I'll talk with you but I doubt I'd drink with you.
Anyway, in 1946, after decided to change in Republic (it was a monarchy before), there were elections.
There were the ex partisans still with the weapons of the war.
Part of them were communists, there was a strong communist party, say 50% of people.
The elections were promising a close fight, with a possibility of a real fight after them.
But two powers entered in the field of battle:
The church, scared by the treatment religion had in the communist countries.
The USA, scared to lose a nice strategic position in the middle of the Mediterranean (Oil routes passing thru it).
The church started a fierce campaign against the commies, letting the priest scare the people about commies eating the children (they really say that), and excommunicating the commies activists (can you imagine what that mean in a little bigot hyperreligious town of those times?)
The USA (listening the CIA chief in those times, doing it for the first time as a prototype), passing millions of dollars to the Center-right party (the Democrazia Cristiana), and the newspapers that were on DC's side, so they made the biggest electoral campaign ever seen in Italy until Berlusconi's one.
About free elections now, Berlusconi owns the only 3 nationwide private network existing here, and control the Public TV (it's government controlled here).
You can define this free elections for sure, nobody put a gun on your head, but looking the actors of a Soap-opera, the anchor men, the journalists, the singers, all this people that work for him, declare that they will vote for Berlusconi in proximity of the elections, and thinking at the influence the mass-media beast have on opinions, can you still define this "clean"?
[added in edit]
Oh, and guess when Marshal plan was released for Italy too?
You bet, after the elections.
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Toad wrote:
I simply no longer see the value of that kind of sacrifice for an unappreciative world.
The injured wolf will show no appreciation for your efforts to save it. It shall harass and try to bite you, even as you clean its wound. When cured and released, it'll angrily disappear into the woods, with no thought other than getting away from you.
Yet it is in your power, and no one elses, to save the wolf, or leave it to die.
Not doing anything is a choice. Not doing anything when tens of thousands of men, women and children are starved to death. Nor raising a hand when thousands are mutilated, and innocents are forced to dig their own graves and thereafter forever rest in them.
A deed is not truly altruistic if one expects some kind of reward - be it monetary or spiritual. And with power comes responsibility. If one deliberately fails, by choice, to live up to that responsibility, one cannot call oneself a conscientious and moral being.
Demanding gratitude or other rewards for behaviour is something almost universal in children and common in grown men and women. Yet for the true moral being, the act of helping is reward enough in itself - seeing a doomed wolf eagerly leaping for freedom and knowing that one made it possible - that is the reward.
How this applies to the US is simple: I am not asking the US to be the worlds police. Am just saying that with great power comes great responsibility, and electing to turn a blind eye to torture and crimes against humanity is akin to indirectly supporting it. Because of its power, the US, in my mind, is morally obligated just like all other nations, to take a responsibility that is directly related to its power.
60 years gone. And how are they viewed now? I've seen enough here to draw my own conclusion.
You're suggesting that the US efforts aren't appreciated? I don't know how many times I've given my thanks. I don't know how many times other have given their thanks. I have yet to see a post where an European says 'those f@rking Americans intervened in the war, I am not grateful for that'. I think it is wrong to equate resistance to some aspects of US foreign policy to lack of gratitude for the efforts in the first and second world war.
Enough for me to tell my sons "never again."
And what shall you do when a foreign power wages war against you, and another declares war and begins to sink your merchant vessels? Fight back. Like in WWII. It is impossible to realise this dream of 'never again', for several reasons. Like it or not, the world is interconnected, and the US will be dragged into the mess made by others. In Europe, it was not all European countries fault that WWII happened, even though many Americans say 'we tended your mess'. It was one man who started it - or possibly the allied after the capitlation in 1919 - and that included the Americans. Anyway, the US will be dragged in and forced to act, possibly dealing with a monster that as as infant was helpless, but that, thanks to time, has grown strong and resilient.
Do not misunderstand me Toad, this is not an attack on you on your ideals. Just trying to hold a dialogue here to see where you stand, so I can view the difference and adapt.
Also, the US intervention around the world and the imperialistic march of American culture, which has spread because it's convenient and people like it, means that there'll be people with interest in the US. Some of these people will remember past grudges and opt to retaliate in one way or another, sooner or later.
Angry? Nope? In a rage? Nope.
Disillusioned and tired, feeling old and worn? I get this feeling, as if you've fought long, hard and brave, but simply does not have the energy for the fight anymore. I might be utterly wrong though.
Merely being a realist and doing a "cost/benefit" analysis under my parameters.
Does the cost/benefit analysis include the economical loss that comes with losing big financial and national interests abroad?
You might find it comical that I, who on one hand thinks the US meddles too much and uses strong arm tactics too often, am arguing for a continued US participation in world affairs. The difference to me is in how the participation is done. Am not asking the US to be a magic bullet or to fix the problems of troubled countries. But as it is, the US is the only country which alone can stop ethnic cleansing anywhere on earth. As such, it has a responsibility to do it.
Of course, this is just my opinion - I strongly believe that the power I have as a person is directly proportional to the responsibility I have to other humans and all beings and things that are. Even though I'm an atheist, I consider myself a moral and spiritual person. My conscience is too big for my own good, but how can one ignore the suffering of other individuals, who have just as much capacity for love and joy as one self?
And no, am not doing nearly enough to ease my conscience. I have the classical 'we're well off and people are suffering, is it right that I eat all this food and sit comfortably at home consuming enough resources to feed 10 families abroad'. Perhaps it reflects on how I envision the role of the US in the world.
But it is also a reflection of the respect and trust I have in the American people. The role I suggest is a hard one, and the trials will be ardous. The people to undertake them must be tough, passionate, objective and capable of being individuals that can treat wolves, knowing full well that there'll be bites instead of gratitude. Knowing full well that in the end, there'll be a wolf alive that otherwise would have been dead, and that that goal is reward in itself.
I'm an idealist battling cynicism. Flame away.
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Originally posted by krazyhorse
" yawn " yall both are boring the toejam out of me, maveric your comment about native americans is BS and you know it, the simple thing is i dont bash your country and your people so why must you bash mine? you may call me small or simple minded ... have you looked in the damn mirror lately, and to any one concerned i drive around in my pickup with my rifle on my gunrack listening to Born to be Wild on my 8track player
Show me where I am in error. Show me where I "bashed your country". You show the U.S. as your place of residence at least, as to your nationality, I have no idea.
As to the rest of your post I couldn't care less what you dirive or listen too. :rolleyes:
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60 years gone. And how are they viewed now? I've seen enough here to draw my own conclusion.
I can pass on the patronising "you young 'uns" slight, but not on this. I've never seen anyone belittling the sacrifices made of ANY service-person from the US during WW2. Ever. I've never done it, and if that comment is levelled at me, either point to where I made it or apologise.
Being British, all my relatives who were alive in WW2 were involved. The men went overseas to fight. The women too in the form of nurses and WAAFI in my case. By saying I don't respect US WW2 effort and sacrifice, by association I must not respect that of my own country. They were fighting for the same thing.
Isolate yourself from the world, as is your right - but don't paint others as uneducated, ungrateful, immature fools by way of justification.
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my apoligies maveric for my piss poor grammar there was suppose to be a period in place of the comma before the country bashing statement,and after the word it, i have to write in this format simply because i do not know how to do all the seperations and quotes in the bbs or even multiple colors. i for 1 do not beleive the theories that we all immigrated from africa, this is more a statment for my mothers people of which were here for many many centuries before the white man showed up on this land,how far back i do not know. i do know that i do not believe every "scientist" with his "theories" about when or what happened . oh and a side not i wish this bbs had spell checking because i suk at that as well
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I've seen numerous counts of referrals to 'euro trash' etc. derogatory comments, and not a single one aimed at the Americans. Anyone else noticed this?
If you wonder where the attitude and flamewars start, even the most US loving person like me will get irritated if someone damn straight spits on your face.
There are no 'US haters' on this BB but there are Euro haters who piss off Euros who then slam them back. Another popular thing seems to be that if someone from US disagrees with someone outside of US and starts to feel insecure, the other one gets labeled US hater all of the sudden, even if he made no negative comments at all. This seems to be the next hit thing now that calling people commies is out of the fashion. :) At least that's how things seem to me.
Do I see things too black and white?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. USA is such a large country that it's easy to forget it's still just a small part of the planet.
Do you not find this derogatory? I do. Get the mote out of your own eye first please.
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Santa, you miserable canned spammer... this ones fer you. ;)
An Arab, an American Indian and a Cowboy were waiting at a bus stop in Colorado.. there was a long uncomfortable silence.. eventually, the Indian tries to break the ice with this missive..
"once; my people were numerous...."
The arabs eys flash, and he says "once, our people were few, but now, there are more muslims than christians..."
The cowboy leans back, rolls the toothpick, pulls his hat down low over the eyes and says..
"we ain't had a chance to play cowboys and muslims yet"
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ROTFL Hangtime.
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I'm not calling you anything. I don't make ad hominem attacks. Whatever you are on this board in anyone's mind, it's you that have created the image/persona with your writings. Just as we all have.
I asked a serious question, given what I've read of your replies. I asked you if you thought the US NSO would leave when the time came in a normal "end of contract" civilised manner.
Obviously, you agree that they will. Which has been a major point of mine throughout this thread.
Let's see. Italians themselves threw out Mussolini and Facism but were unable to remove the Germans that soon controlled their country. After the Allies drove the Germans out and the war was over, the Catholic Church and the US CIA subverted the free elections? Is that what you're telling me? That the Church should never have spoken out or is it that the Church was merely a tool of the United States as well? Then the CIA "bought" the election for Democrazia Cristiana? Is this what you're saying?
The Italian electorate that put Mussolini in power and then removed him were scared into the hands of the Democrazia Cristiana by the Catholic Church and purchased by the CIA as well for Democrazia Cristiana?
Is this what you are telling me? I'm not putting words into your mouth.. .I'm trying to understand that you really believe this.
Further, are you implying that we would have withheld the Marshall plan from Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won? Are you saying that?
Because if you are, are you aware that Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate?
In June 1947, delegates from France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union met in Paris to discuss Marshall's proposal. After several days, Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav M. Molotov walked out, stating that the Soviet government "rejects this plan as totally unsatisfactory."
So you're saying we wouldn't have offered it to Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won?
As to Berlusconi controlling your country and govenment by ownership of the media........
Let's see. You HAD a system for free elections after the war. What happened to it? IF you lost it it through losing control of the media to Berlusconi, who's fault would that be?
Not that I agree with you basic premise. Mussolini totally controlled the country with an iron fist, media and all and ended up shot and hanged.
Berlusconi can still be done in with a simple ballot. IF the electorate so chooses.
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I absolutely will not apologise to you. I have never attacked you... or anyone else... personally on this board.
As I pointed out in the post to Naso, you've created your persona here with your own keyboard. If you see yourself aggrieved by one of my posts, I suggest you look inside rather than outside.
As for patronising "young 'uns", I have no idea of your age, nor do I care.
It is evident, however, that there are many younger folks here that have never read much history or, if they did, do not remember much of what they read. It is evident in their commentary on current events and is characterised by an obvious lack of a moral center to their being and their writings.
Ingrates? I see lots of those as well.
Good day.
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Santa,
Not doing anything is indeed a choice. A choice the VAST MAJORITY of nations belonging to the UN have made.
We have done things. Some everlastingly right, a few everlastingly wrong. But we DID act.
And what do we get for it but dead sons and scorn?
I expect no reward other than an acknowledgement that WE, unlike those that sat on their bleeding hands, TRIED OUR BEST. If that's just too difficult, a pox on all your houses.
Tell you what...
How about the US supplies the UN with an entire Air Wing, Navy Carrier Group and an Armored Division. Just the equipment, not the personnel. And the rest of the world can man the equipment and solve all the world's problems. We'll even supply the $$ to keep it all running.
Deal?
Didn't think so.
This isn't about support for any operation against Iraq. It's about acknowledging an honest effort and honest motives over many, many years.
You won't have to look very far to find the naysayers on those two items either. I expect they'll be along shortly.
OTOH, this is the crux of the issue for me and many of my fellow countrymen. If everything we do is castigated and derided, if all our actions are attributed to the basest motives....
a pox on all your houses. Do it yourselves then. You'll find it's not as easy as you would think.
Again I say look where our armies have been and what has grown behind them in their passage. Compare THAT to other world powers of the past.
I suspect that China will rule the world stage when we step aside as I hope we will. What tender mercies then await the world from the folks that brought you Tiananmen?
As to those on this board who've slammed the US for waiting so long to get involved in WW2, it once again simply shows a lack of historical grounding.
You even seem to overlook Wilson's "14 Points". Yes, the US was a signatory to the Treaty of Versailles, an acknowledged starting point of WW2. But would that Treaty have been a cause of WW2 if Wilson's 14 points had been adopted in toto by the other "Great Powers"? Convenient to overlook that, isn't it?
The world was quite different then. There was no UN. The League of Nations was totally ineffective. It lost it's "relevance" (in the parlance of Powell and Bush speaking of the UN recently) when the League failed to oppose Nazi Germany's marching armies.
The American neutrality acts, passed successively by Congress during the middle 1930’s, placed increasingly strict controls on the ability of the United State to assist any parties that would become involved in the seemingly inevitable conflict on the European mainland. Roosevelt's hands were tied in many (most) respects.
The US population was still very isolationist prior to Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was lucky to get Lend-Lease past the isolationists in Congress.
Even Britain itself had to hustle and draw up Mutual Assistance Treaty with Poland on August 25th -six days before the Germans invaded- in order to have a Causus Belli in an attempt to stop the Germans.
Countries just didn't jump into wars UNLESS they had treaties of mutual assistance with one of the combatants.
It's HOW IT WAS DONE then. The League of Nations had no real power. There was no UN. There were TREATIES between nations for mutual defense/assistance.
Any student of history is aware of the US Neutrality Acts and the near total lack of any US "mutual defense treaties".
We COULDN'T just "join in". There were our national laws and the laws of just war.
Interestingly, these same folks that think we were negligently late are often the very same ones that castigate us NOW when we take action... or even propose action.. unilaterally.
Yep. Scorn us for not acting unilaterally then... scorn us if we even discuss unilateral action now.
As to your comment on fighting WW2, remind yourself that it was only Hitler's idiocy that allowed Roosevelt a clear field to enter the European War. If Hitler had the sense Cod gave a goat, he'd NEVER have declared war on the US.
OUR war was with Japan; it was Japan that attacked us. Given that Hitler's declaration allowed Roosevelt to finally jump into Europe with both feet, the Pacific war took far longer than it would have and cost far more lives.
Had we concentrated solely on defeating Japan, it would have been a very short Pacific war. OUR war would have been very short.
I don't worry about those who would attack the US. I think we can handle them. The world won't like the way we do it.. but I believe that pressed hard enough we can convince everyone involved that it's best to just leave us the heck alone. In fact, I'm extremely confident of that.
Disillusioned and tired, feeling old and worn? I get this feeling, as if you've fought long, hard and brave, but simply does not have the energy for the fight anymore. I might be utterly wrong though.
Yep, you're utterly wrong. None of those things. More like a banker writing off a bad loan. To quote the old Godfather movie.. "it's just business". We've wasted a huge amount of resources.
Does the cost/benefit analysis include the economical loss that comes with losing big financial and national interests abroad?
Allow me to let a far wiser man answer. George Washington, as quoted above:
Harmony, liberal intercourse with all Nations, are recommended by policy, humanity and interest.
But even our Commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand:
neither seeking nor granting exclusive favours or preferences; consulting the natural course of things;
diffusing & deversifying by gentle means the streams of Commerce, but forcing nothing;
establishing with Powers so disposed--in order to give to trade a stable course, to define the rights of our Merchants, and to enable the Government to support them--conventional rules of intercourse;
the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, & liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate;
We have a desirable market. Trade will occur. If we follow Washinton's advice, trade will bloom.
But as it is, the US is the only country which alone can stop ethnic cleansing anywhere on earth. As such, it has a responsibility to do it.
So it would seem as the Bosnia situation clearly illustrated. But even THAT took an illegal act by NATO to accomplish... because the UN WOULD NOT DO WHAT WAS NECESSARY. The world seems to need/use the US for the "wet work" so they can "disavow any knowledge" as they used to say.
I'm no longer interested in playing that role for the rest. Sorry.
We have families to feed right here. We have seniors that need food AND medical attention. We have schools that don't measure up. Time we looked internally at problems for a while.
As I said, I'd willingly give up the equipment for a "combined arms" UN unit and let our much more sophisticated brethren on Human Rights Commision of the UN save the world for a while while we tend our own neglected garden for some time.
I don't care if the wolf dies. You know, there's a reason mankind tried to eradicate wolves whenever they came into contact with them.
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damn toad.. that was eloquent.
(well, it woulda been if i could spell it)
I disagree.. I don't wanna see us step aside and fade into the woodwork.
I hate quitting.
I say we see this out.. in the front ranks right down to the end... and I'm just sappy enough to believe that we can do it.
World Cops?? If that's what it takes to insure my grandkids don't have to worry about peace freedom and security.
I say, go for it. The whole enchilada.
Our dads were asked the question in 1945... and their leaders backed down. Look what they left us..
Not too long from now, the questions gonna come up again.. I hope we have the national will to finish it this time.
It's time to extend the Constitution to the World.
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Ummmm....
the "world" doesn't WANT our Constitution, Hang.
A niggling little minor point for you, I know. ;)
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Yessir, I know.
Hell.. how long did it take to get the constitution ratafied?
We didn't want it either.
Look at us now..
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Well, before you saddle the old charger best remember one other thing.
That little disagreement between States Rights and the Federal Government's authority.
Fort Sumter ring a bell fer ya?
I think you can expect LOTS of Fort Sumters.
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Yup.
and your right.
it won't work; it's totally hollywood, fantasy, impossible, impractical, inconcievable.
*sigh*
I hate it when yer right.
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AkIron if you would know what I know, and then look into a load of comments made by Americans on this BB it would be clear as day to you too.
It's not derogatory by any means, it's the simple truth. Your educational system does not care much about foreign affairs (as I have heard from exchange students multiple times.) They were dumbfounded by the lack of basic knowledge about europe in general at high-school and even university level.
The egocentric way of thinking is the biggest problem.
I'm fully aware that there are loads of places in the world where americans are hated and unwelcome..
EUROPE IS NOT ONE OF THEM!
Well, count out France, they hate anything that doesn't speak french. They're really protectionist, you see? If you go that way as a nation, it will suck to visit there just as it does to visit France now if you don't speak thier language.
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It doesn't wash Toad. I just think it's roadkill to suggest people have said anything disrespectful of dead US service-people. You've mentioned it several times; I must be reading a different BBS, because I just don't see it.
I've seen plenty dissing the French war dead, but that doesn't seem to matter.
'For some of you youngsters' sounds awfully personal to me. And when you go on to suggest ignorance and ungratefulness regarding WW2, it's hardly jumping to conclusions to think the two are linked.
But use muddied generalisations amongst very specific sounding statements, if that's what you want.
Have a nice day.
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Best reread my posts then because you are missing the point, either deliberately or inadvertently.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'm not calling you anything. I don't make ad hominem attacks. Whatever you are on this board in anyone's mind, it's you that have created the image/persona with your writings. Just as we all have.
I asked a serious question, given what I've read of your replies. I asked you if you thought the US NSO would leave when the time came in a normal "end of contract" civilised manner.
Obviously, you agree that they will. Which has been a major point of mine throughout this thread.
You are calling me idiot by suggesting that I can believe something so absurd.
Let's see. Italians themselves threw out Mussolini and Facism but were unable to remove the Germans that soon controlled their country. After the Allies drove the Germans out and the war was over,...
You are discarding the battles and the deaths, the cities that rebelles before the allies entered (like the Naples civilians, that fought 4 days to throw out the Germans), or almost the entire North, that have the Germans surrender the weapons to the partisans to have free path to the southern Austria.
But that does'nt count, they were not US deaths.
...the Catholic Church and the US CIA subverted the free elections? Is that what you're telling me? That the Church should never have spoken out or is it that the Church was merely a tool of the United States as well? Then the CIA "bought" the election for Democrazia Cristiana? Is this what you're saying?
The Catolic church is not part of the Italian state, the Vatican it's a sovereign state encircled in Italian territory (for you information, during the unification process, Rome was attacked by the Bersaglieri, and made a fierce resistence, the actual Vatican it's what is left of a state that extended in all central Italy), and her interference on Italian elections (mantained until the late '80), was in violation of the "concordato".
And no, the Church was not operating under US control (you know US is a Protestant state?) but they shared for a moment the same objective (avoid the commies win the elections).
I said that CIA donate funds (like a lot of big families, Agnelli, Augusta, that become very rich under the fascist dictatorate), and this one too is an interference on a sovereign state.
The Italian electorate that put Mussolini in power and then removed him were scared into the hands of the Democrazia Cristiana by the Catholic Church and purchased by the CIA as well for Democrazia Cristiana?
Is this what you are telling me? I'm not putting words into your mouth.. .I'm trying to understand that you really believe this.
Mister, I believe in nothing, my ideas are always open to change, if new informations arise, I remember to have already told you this in one of the old discussions.
There have been trials here, after DC was disbanded for corruption, and something has been put out of the secret by the CIA, the local chief of CIA in those times testify about that.
Will be difficult for you to find info on your US based sites, or even in other sites (WWW does'nt contain everything), but you can learn Italian and read some thousand of pages coming out from this trials.
An interesting piece of info, but just that, info.
More on this later.
Further, are you implying that we would have withheld the Marshall plan from Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won? Are you saying that?
Because if you are, are you aware that Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate?
In June 1947, delegates from France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union met in Paris to discuss Marshall's proposal. After several days, Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav M. Molotov walked out, stating that the Soviet government "rejects this plan as totally unsatisfactory."
So you're saying we wouldn't have offered it to Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won?
Check by yourself, maybe you have all the possible info.
As to Berlusconi controlling your country and govenment by ownership of the media........
Let's see. You HAD a system for free elections after the war. What happened to it? IF you lost it it through losing control of the media to Berlusconi, who's fault would that be?
You asked about free elections NOW in Italy, I answered.
If you mistakenly supposed that I was accusing the US for it, you are wrong, this point to the real problem, even when a comment have nothing to do with US, you read it as an US bashing (and in this case is really an Italy bashing made by me), remember: i am not a "right or wrong it's my country" type of man.
Not that I agree with you basic premise. Mussolini totally controlled the country with an iron fist, media and all and ended up shot and hanged.
Berlusconi can still be done in with a simple ballot. IF the electorate so chooses.
It's not so simple, an electorate can choose based on the information it have, if the infos are biased and controlled by one side, the choise will be "guided" in some way.
What we can see here in Italy is a macroexample of what a modern "info-dictature" can be, an interesting subject to study, less nice to live in it... but such is life.
This lead on the successive post you made, not directed to me (I hope), when you suggest (and you are not wrong) that there's a lot of people that have little knowledge of the History (I hope you dont include me in them ;) ).
There's another problem... the problem is that the History is not absolute, it's relative, it's made of points of views, and can be examinated with the light of common sense and some little sociology.
Believing as you seem to do, that a country spend money and lives with no reward, just to help others, it's an oversimplification (i have the impression to have used a word that dont exist).
I bet your relatives that fought the war were people that truly believed the values you expressed, almost the same that I have, and I respect them and Salute them, and all the lifes spent to this values, and I Salute all the people that died for an ideal, even if I disagree with the ideals they died for.
But I question the governments, the powers (all of them, not only U.S.), behind them, I dont trust them, even if their acts have some good effect (as US had in Europe), I consider it a secondary effect, the primary objective it's another one, and it's not feed on the masses.
As I have already stated, if we leave this US-centric attitude and start to consider other nations, like Italy, you will find me bashing with the same force the govrnment and their professed intentions.
Fact is that almost every argument here in this board goes quick down to the dead road of the "We are better than others" "you owe us everything"...
and finally, the masterpiece: "we saved you arse".
It's tiring, and sad, because at that point everyone lose control on emotions (yeah sometime me too), and the discussion lose his positive effect: the sharing of points of view, and become a battle of absolute principles.
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As I said, I don't call anyone anything. I let their own posts paint their own portrait.
I said "Your initial implication was that there are NO armies that are sent for liberation rather than conquest. I beg to differ. We've had our missteps but I'll take the record of the US over any other."
You replied with "Oh, an hint: on official administration territory charts it's called "US occupation force installation" and it's due to be occupied until the 2042 (99 years). "
Yet we both agree that the NSO will likely disappear or at least be renegotiated in 2042. Without any "force" being used at all.
Hard to twist that into "conquering" from my point of view and it would seem you agree.
As for the Italian resistance to the Germans, I'm not discarding it at all. We didn't even discuss it. I merely made the historically correct observation that it wasn't until the Allies landed in Italy and forced the Germans out that Italy had any chance at all of regaining free elections, despite having executed Mussolini. I'm sure you realize the historical truth of that as well.
I don't doubt that the US may have tried to influence Italian elections from time to time with money. I've often said there's been mistakes and missteps in US foreign policy. I do doubt, however, that US money ever really ensured one candidate winning over another.
The Chinese gave lots of money to the Democrats here too. LOTS of money. But I seriously doubt it was the sole reason for Democratic wins.
I didn't ask about free elections now in Italy; I merely pointed out that after the occupation Italy was given the chance to freely choose it's leadership. It's a continuation of my proposition that US armies didn't come to conquer, which you seemed to dispute with your "None and None" reply to my earlier question.
YOU brought up the present situation. Apparently you feel you no longer have "free elections". Maybe, maybe not... but if NOT where does the responsibility lie? THAT is my question and it relates once again to the root cause I my postings with you in this thread. It's the "conquest" aspect. After the occupation, did Italy have free elections? You say the Catholic Church cheated CIA "bought" them so they weren't free.
Seems to me in the 60+ years since the Italians have been in command of their own politics for better or for worse... Catholic Church and CIA not withstanding. Maybe you disagree.
I'm sure we BOTH agree that Italy never became an American colony after the passage of the US Army. There was no conquest.
There's ample evidence of our style and it's like few if any that went before us. Japan is another example as is/was West Germany.
And how about that Marshall Plan, eh? Offered to the Soviet Union and all its captured and enslaved satellites as well as the former neutral and Allied nations.
Kinda brings into focus whether or not Italy would have been in the Marshall Plan if DC had lost, don't you think?
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Originally posted by TWOLF
WE ARE ALL THE SAME, WE ARE ALL HUMAN.
TYpical Human remark. I am not Human, and I resent your Xenophobic attitudes in here....nanoonanoo...
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
AkIron if you would know what I know, and then look into a load of comments made by Americans on this BB it would be clear as day to you too.
Ah, I see. It's ignorant arrogance when I say it, but the truth when you say it. Thanks for enlightening me.
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Originally posted by Toad
...Hard to twist that into "conquering" from my point of view and it would seem you agree.
...I don't doubt that the US may have tried to influence Italian elections from time to time with money. I've often said there's been mistakes and missteps in US foreign policy. I do doubt, however, that US money ever really ensured one candidate winning over another.
...YOU brought up the present situation. Apparently you feel you no longer have "free elections". Maybe, maybe not... but if NOT where does the responsibility lie? THAT is my question and it relates once again to the root cause I my postings with you in this thread. It's the "conquest" aspect. After the occupation, did Italy have free elections? You say the Catholic Church cheated CIA "bought" them so they weren't free.
...I'm sure we BOTH agree that Italy never became an American colony after the passage of the US Army. There was no conquest.
There's ample evidence of our style and it's like few if any that went before us. Japan is another example as is/was West Germany.
And how about that Marshall Plan, eh? Offered to the Soviet Union and all its captured and enslaved satellites as well as the former neutral and Allied nations.
Kinda brings into focus whether or not Italy would have been in the Marshall Plan if DC had lost, don't you think?
Look above, I already said the today situation have little to do with the US, let's agree I misunderstand the question, and guessed you were asking about the today situation (I presumed that for the first time you were interested in something different from the USA, I was wrong).
About the colony.
In the last half century, a new type of colonization has been introduced.
It's based on massmedia and economics.
It's not completely bad, but is unstoppable.
And it scare me, because its transforming the world in a flat entity, without diversity, composed by only one type of human: "the consumer".
About the money.
Money cant buy an election, you say.
Money cant control a nation, you say.
True, probably true in many cases, but depending on where you spend it, money can raise pressures in the intended direction.
Maybe you lost it, check this post for an example:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78142
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AkIron first of all, you are trying to make this into an argument for nothing. At which point I claimed you (as in person) were doing or saying anything?
The whole way how you replied once again shows this agressive-defensive attitude which I really can't understand. What I said above are the facts as I see them - and let me stress again as I see them - , based on my own experience after talking with several exchange students and meeting several people from the US.
I was referring to the people who make statements like all Euro's are a bunch of dentally impaired trash that should be nuked every time they say something against any american. This is the BS spewing I was talking about in my comment. I'm sure you noticed those posts too.
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naso and dowding.... All I got out of this whole thing is that you think we are arrogant and you don't like us but that you think we owe it to you/the rest of the world to step in when and how the rest of you see fit? some sort of UN kinda thing...
Oh... do angolans have socialized "dentistry" (LOL) too?
lazs
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I was referring to the people who make statements like all Euro's are a bunch of dentally impaired trash that should be nuked every time they say something against any american.
Well, when we're not beating our wives, or selling our babies drugs, or killing indians or oppressing our asian, latino and black citizens and there's nothin good on the hsitory or wings channel, we need something constructive to do.
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Originally posted by lazs2
naso and dowding.... All I got out of this whole thing is that you think we are arrogant and you don't like us but that you think we owe it to you/the rest of the world to step in when and how the rest of you see fit? some sort of UN kinda thing...
lazs
You got it wrong, maybe you are confusing me with someone else.