Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: miko2d on July 26, 2000, 09:41:00 AM
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Lady and Gentleman,
Padlock is the topic that is raised from time to time by people who missed the previous discussions. I just wante to refresh it for those people and maybe get some ideas.
Some argue that the padlock feature simulates smooth tracking of the target by a pilot. If the pilot glances at his instrunents or checks his 6 momentarily, he does not usually loose the target. Padlock simulates it all beautifully.
Other's argue that the padlock gives people completely unrealistic SA advantage, since it can trach the target while it is out of sight - covered by an aircraft for example. Or when a pilot looks in another direction for a long time and the target is not even close to where it was seen last - the padlock still keeps track of it. That is completely unacceptable in a HiFi sim like AH or WB.
So what, say the padlock proponents, modify it to account for those features. Well, as a programmer I could tell you that it is an extremely difficult task, if at all possible.
Here are some difficulties, as an example:
1. When you glance away from a target, what time should pass before the padlock looses it? There will never be concensus on this and the actual number is variable in real life. If a plane crosses your wing while slowly overtaking you and flying straight, you will have no trouble reaquiring it when it emerges because you will predict it's path and watch for it at the point where it should emerge - the padlock is locked on that point. If at any point you decide to roll and make it visible, you should already be looking in the proper direction.
If the same plane is not flying straight before being covered by a piece of your plane, you would not even expect to reaquire it and start looking elsewhere immediately.
2. You could lose visibility of a plane over terrain and over or behind the clouds. The distance of that varies based on the shape of the plane, the color scheme of a plane, it's orientation towards you, the colouring of that particular piece of a terrain it is flying over, any kind of smoke/dust present, sun/water glare and a few other factors.
The padlock would have to simulate human visual mechanism to reproduce that. Guess what - we are not even close to reliable speech recongition systems, let alone visual recongition systems nearing the human vision in extreme conditions.
If anyone came up with that kind of software, it would be first used in self-flying planes and self-driving cars, not in a game. Of course you would need a supercomputer for that now.
3. We have different receptors in our eye - some are located in the center and react to detail, others are located in the periphery and react to the motion. You see the pane on the screen if you look at it, but you loose it from sight if you glance away and it is not moving much relative to the rest of a picure. That should also be similated.
So we would have to wait a few years/decades for a realistic padlock. Once it is possible, I am sure the good folks of HTC would consider it.
miko--
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Moot point.
Padlock was written last week. And it dosn't offer any advantage other than not having to change views manualy.
HiTech
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Heheheheheeheh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(edited as I thought HiTech was kidding and I was pulling legs.)
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 07-26-2000).]
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:::Leg being pulled?:::
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Padlock just changing the view without actually tracking the target in the center of the screen?
It's so simple, how come nobody thought of that! It sounds like it is going to simulate just the movement of a head, but not the human vision. Great news, Hitech, thanks!
It will take some getting used to for the people accustomed to the old padlocks, because a plane will appear in another place of the screen once the view changes.
miko--
P.S. When do we get it?
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Originally posted by Westy:
It is possible to have a padlock. In Fighter Ace. Folks who want it can use it along with the rest of the folks there who prefer the low effort and no learning curve way.
-Westy
(padlock simulates NOTHING. Nothing at all)
Westy,
How does FA padlock addresses the the issues I brought in my post? WB/AH pilots are proud of their SA skills. How does FA padlock avoids giving people an unfair advantage of seeing something that should be invisible?
miko--
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"How does FA padlock avoids giving people an unfair advantage of seeing something that should be invisible?"
If yer plane is blocking the view of the padlocked plane... you won't be able to se it.
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Originally posted by Nash:
"How does FA padlock avoids giving people an unfair advantage of seeing something that should be invisible?"
If yer plane is blocking the view of the padlocked plane... you won't be able to se it.
Nash,
I am not being contrarian here, I really want to know if anyone came up with a better padlock then the few ones I saw. Could you give some details.
In which way won't I be able to see the target? Will I lose a lock and snap back to the front view and have to reaquire the lock if the target disappears from my view for a fraction of a second behind a canopy strut?
Or will I "not see it" while looking directly where it is - at the center of my screen, even hidden behind my aicraft or clouds or mountains or masked by a terrain for prolonged periods of time while changing directions?
The first option is not really usable. The second one is completely unrealistic - even Superman needed to know where to look with his X-ray vision.
Also, how do you aquire the padlock in FA? By looking at a plane and clicking on it or by hitting "lock nearest plane" twice a second until something comes up? That would complelely prevent any kind of a surprise.
Even our mile-wide neon icons could be seen only if you are looking in their general direction and people keep complaining about them.
I would appreciate if anyone could enlighten me.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 07-26-2000).]
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First of all, I have no idea how it's gonna be implemented here.
IF, as some people have surmised, that this 'padlock' is more akin to a view switcher, then heres how I'm *guessing* it would work:
You've got a plane in your front view. You select (dunno how) it for padlock. if that plane crosses to your 2 o'clock, then the view will switch (pan, whatever) to the 45' horizontal view. As it crosses to your 3 o'clock, the view will switch to your 90' horizontal view. It doesn't mean it will *center* that plane, it just means it will change it to the best view for keeping rack of him. Now if this plane dives *under* you, perhaps the view will change to the look down mode... all that you will see is yer seat... and that plane could be *anywhere* below ya in that view.
Now - this is complete BS speculation on my part based on whats been mentioned. Prolly talkin' out me arse. You'll need further clariication from the fine folks at HTC to really know how this is gonna work.
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Heh, I went and checked out how I got that idea... and it was from YOUR post miko2d. Heh, I'm afraid it's the blind leading the blind here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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All I can say is: Hitech! You da man!
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Padlock is just a crutch...unless implemented with the proper restrictions it will give an unfair advantage to it's users...I would rather have AH stick with the view system already in place, which is the best of any sim presently IMO. BTW...the padlock in FA2 is a joke...tracking planes that start outside of your field of view is just plane wrong and very unrealistic.
MrLars
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Uhmmmm, all I gotta say is;
Trust Hitech, the padlock will be done realistically and without giving up the current view system.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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It occurs to me that padlocking involves *selecting* a plane. In this case nme. It doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch to be able to select a friendly plane for a six call. I'd love to see that here.
Internal dialogue:
"Call his 6? Nah, better just to clear his tail. But what if he doesn't see it? What if he does and I waste valuable manuever time typing to him. Oops... he's dead".
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AutoTargetFixation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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Your close nash execpt if the plane you are locked on is not visible do to any obstuction. The system will not change views. i.e. will not track the plane underneath you. or behind buildings. The target lock will not be broken i.e. you will not have to reselect him but you will have to use the view system to find him back if he has moved to another view.
HiTech
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damnit....i'm already out of buttons to map the the joystick..
now where's that padlock/normal view toggle gonna go.??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
yum yum.
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Our padlock is designed to be complementary to the current view system. It'll help new people get used to our view system and some old hands will like the fact that they won't have to do as much thumb wrestling with their joystick if they don't want to.
Here's the basics behind the system. First, you have to see a target to padlock it. If a target is not in your actual view, you can't padlock it. When you're in padlock mode, your regular view system is still live. It doesn't require you to be slaved to the padlocked target at all times. You can still look around to check your six for example. After you release the view key you were using to look elsewhere, your view will return to where the target was last seen. If the target is still there, padlock will continue to track it. If the target is not where you last saw it, you will be returned to your forward view and have to use your view keys to reacquire the target. Once the target becomes visible to you again, the padlock automatically tracks it again. If the target moves to an area where it is not visable, under your wing for example, the padlock view will stay looking at where the target was last seen. Tracking will continue once the target is visible again, whether that happens by it clearing the obstacle or by you having to manually look for it.
This is not a very clear description but it boils down to this. The padlock cannot track targets that aren't in view. The regular view system can still be used while you're in padlock.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I hope that one has to manually lock on to a target initially.
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I was hard coded at the factory with an anti-padlock bias. I'll zip me lip till I see how this works.
-Westy
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I've got the anti-padlock bias too.
2 reasons... artificial tracking, and a loss of SA.
However, this system that HTC are doing is free of those two things.
It wont follow where ya can't see it, and yer free to pan around. I'm not saying I'll use it, personally, but the only thing I reckon it hurts here is for those fellahs that enjoy plastering a newbie who has trouble using views. In that case, yer SOL... otherwise, it should be fine.
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um....jesus.....er......pleas e tell me that when you say 'changes view' you mean it follows the target like in pan mode. Please dont tell me i've gotta put up with snap views all the time.....
Swoop
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Pyro, maybe I'm just wierd put that description was loud and clear for me, and sounds like something my anti-padlock bias will have no problems with (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think it might even help my K/D some as people lock up thier targets and forget to check 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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excellent.
more dweebs will have target fixation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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How is target acquisition initially made? I mean can I just bang away on a key in the 6 view cyclying through targets? I sure hope not. I have lost some fights because I lost sight, with this I never would have. Slope seems slippery to me.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Let me be the first to post it. FAH(fighter aces high). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by easymo:
Let me be the first to post it. FAH(fighter aces high). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My crystal ball is in the shop, so I'll just have to wait to actually see it before I can say that.
Cobra
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I predict you will se FAH on AGW before the day is out. I just wanted to copywrite the phrase. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And I should care what gets posted on AGW because.......
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Gezus HT if they get padlocks where is me friggin ashtray for Big Blue...there is no justice!! or ashtrays......
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What will the padlock effect in Buffs gunnary? Or will the Buffs have a padlock?
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Hmm torque.. not a bad idea.. But if you get that, I want my in-cockpit multi-disc cd player.
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when your wrong, your wrong. I was wrong. Guess MG was busy dancing naked around his HT/pyro dolls. And pouring chicken blood on them.
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I'm glad that padlock will bring lots of new customers to HTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Now the only thing missing is Air starts then we are set!
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Padlock!? Is it any bad joke? umn... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"FESSE" Far East Special Scnario Event (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~tamichi/ahevent/jp/top.htm)
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Why i won't write padalock.
1. To be fair with the padaloc system any time the bogie flew behind anything the lock would have to break. That meens that if he simply crosses a canopy rail the lock would break. The inside plane detection lock break is fairly easy and not very cpu intensive. We also have the terrain to break the lock and all other objects in the terrain including clouds other planes and this is not a trival cpu matter but it could be worked out. So unlike all the other games that use padalock just a normal pull from an up view to a forward view will always pass a canopy rail and there for the lock would be constantly disengaging. Do to game design U will not auto reaquire a target once the lock is brocken. So what padalock would end up like is only a very marginaly usefull tool for people who havn't yet mastered the normal view system.
Now unlike players I have to way every thing in the time it takes to implement vs what it adds to the game. Quite simply writeing padalock would delay somthing else and in my view just isn't worth the time to write verses the benifit to the game.
Finaly this is not a new issue. Ive been hearing the exact same aguments over that last 5 years and it has almost always come down to people who have learned the view system have no desire for padlock and people who havn't yet mastered it wish there was one.
HiTech
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Good thing! Canopy rails,clouds, terrain etc will break the lock.
Regards.
// Maniac
"Quite simply writeing padalock would delay somthing else and in my view just isn't worth the time to write"
"Finaly this is not a new issue. Ive been hearing the exact same aguments over that last 5 years and it has almost always come down to people who have learned the view system have no desire for padlock and people who havn't yet mastered it wish there was one."
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Dammo... fer some reason it really gets to me when someone spends a bunch of time wading through the archives to dig up the one quote that will truely nail them bastards this time.
Big deal... HTC are people.. people change their minds. C'est la vie... Don't matter.
By the sounds of it, this padlock will be nothing like the padlocks we've come to know and hate. But if it is? THEN get yer panties worked up into a knot. This is a little premature, no?
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-27-2000).]
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I love HTC
I love HTC
I love HTC
I love HTC
I love HTC
emmm did I say I love HTC? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am still one of the few people clicking numeric pad keys to track a con...and a realitic padlock will be much appreciated (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I like it I'll use it. Id I dont, then I wont. but for sure this will help newbies (one of the things I most hear in TA is "I dont see you!" from newbies...)
WTG HTC!
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"fer some reason it really gets to me when someone spends a bunch of time wading through the archives to dig up the one quote that will truely nail them bastards this time."
Its really easy! you should try it! Hit Search then you type in the topic you want to search for, then hit search and Voila!
In this case there were 2 threads about padlock so it was not hard to find (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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A big attaboy to the HTC folks for the padlock option.
The important word here is 'option'.
If someone does not like the padlock view for whatever reason, then the solution seems simple...don't use it.
The addition of this view can only improve AH. I think it will bring in those simmers that like the look of the sim but don't care for the present viewing system.
That leaves only one other view missing from the trio of most commonly used views...and that is the 'player to target' external view. If this third option were to be added to AH, then this sim would be awesome.
In that event, everyone would have a view to keep them happy. And if it turns out the snap view folks are eating the padlock pilots alive, then so be it. It would not be because they haven't been warned!
Thanks again, HTC.
Andy
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"If someone does not like the padlock view for whatever reason, then the solution seems simple...don't use it."
Well sure if padlock dont prove to have an advantage over the regular "snap views" i can agree with this....
"'player to target' external view. "
You all see what this is leading too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Maniac,
I just read your post on AGW:
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/013618.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/013618.html)
My opinion, playing the communities off like this shows really poor taste on your part.
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Alright! wtg HTC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've wanted a padlock for years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maniac, I wouldn't worry about padlockers having an unfair advantage. It has been my experience that padlocks are ver disorienting. I hope we get some cockpit reflections soon to go w/ the padlock (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thnx HT!
Udie
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Fighting the old "Ready, Fire, AIM!" impulse, I guess I'll just wait and see what they have in mind.
After all, when Ford designed and announced the F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 Shortbed, I was pretty excited. I'd been hoping someone would build a Shortbed Crew Cab for years.
Well, ya know what? Ford never called to ask my opinion on what they should build.
I bought one anyway. It's not perfect but I liked it better than my other choices. It does pretty much what I need it to do.
But Ford still hasn't asked me for any feedback. What's up with that?
I guess if someone else comes out with a BETTER product, I'll give that a look too.
Is this too far off topic?
Should I just have said "let's wait and see and then make an informed decision?"
Maybe I better go have my coffee!
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Maniac:
Isn't realy a question of just changing our minds.
Pyro came up with one slightly different way of doing the padlock view that resolves the nusance delock of crossing canopy.
Do to the fact that we don't do continues panning where the target remains right in the center of the screen, we can keep him "locked" at all times but the view system will not change views if he is currently not visible.
This new way of doing padlock was the item that tiped the scales to worth doing.
All the other issuses still apply i.e. view system won't change to a target or track one if it is currently not on your screen.
HiTech
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"My opinion, playing the communities off like this shows really poor taste on your part."
Dont really see how im "playing the commuities off" I djust let my old friends know that i might be back if i dont like the new padlock system....
Djust because im an AH player revealing to the WB community that AH are gonna use padlock dont mean im an bellybutton you know, you dont think they would have noticed anyway??
_it is good to have choices_
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Maniac
>>...Well sure if padlock dont prove to have an advantage over the regular "snap views" i can agree with this....<<
What's the problem with advantages? If I follow your logic, then we shouldn't let people use cannon instead of MG...use the vertical...more powerful engines...different fuel weights...etc.
In RL, the Malcomb Hood gave a 'view advantage' over the straight P-51 B model...the manufacturer couldn't make them fast enough. Was that an unfair advantage?
>>...'player to target' external view'"...You all see what this is leading too?<<
No. Where is it leading to? Other than a more universally popular sim.
Andy
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Well Maniac, I came from FA, so your remarks did strike a chord with me.
I think I'm doing ok in here as far as competing with you really *hot* *realistic* WB'ers. Oh how did I ever get a kill from you guys, I'll never know. But you WB'ers are sooo much better then us low-lifes that came from other less noble sims.
The arrogance is absolutely astounding.
There are gamers in every friggin sim out there, period. Does FA draw some elements I didn't like, you bet, but WB has the same elements, they just pay $2.00 an hour to game the game.
Cobra
A very unworthy ex-FA opponent, who will stick to *waxing* those WB Aces rides.
<Edit> Just remembering how fun that winging mission was you and I had back in Beta. So much fun that you posted about on 11-26-99. I guess my FA background wasn't too much of a handicap for us to overcome in that mission.
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Thanks HTC!
This does not sound like the perfect implementation to me.
But....
Most things in life are certainly a compromise, I can see the wisdom in your method of implimentation. <S>
For "Padlock", the very name brings fear into many players who have mastered the view systems that are all essentially the same. AW had it. WB had it. AH has it. No big changes, learn one, learn them all. 11 years +/- and no changes.
The idea of padlock now changes the "Crutch" they are used to and have mastered vs the "Crutch" the have not mastered and the use of they seem to fear greatly. I never figured that one out, but I assume that you are ready for the loving comments that it will inspire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, I am really surprized by this turn of events and I am pleasantly pleased. I particularly like the the idea for increased SA by allowing view changes, but then not losing the view your target was last seen in.
I have stated in the past:
- Target fixation gets you the kill
- SA prevents you from being a kill
Thanks again! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"You think Pyro has an attitude, you ought to wake up next to me some morning!"
Ghosth
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 07-27-2000).]
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OUCH!!!
It hurts to bite your tongue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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Cobra,
Im not gonna argue here about something i posted over there, but (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) do you know what an (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) means? guess not...
Andy,
External views etc would be dumbing down Aces High, you mention AH as an SIM, i really want it to be more of SIM and not an GAME with external views etc...
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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LOL! Maniac I've seen your posts on AGW and read them here and it all smacks of the same snooty elitism that has plagued the WB community for years. I came here from 4 years or WB addiction (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and whenever discussing flightsims on the newsgroups the stick that other online flightsimmers would always use to beat the WB community with was the WB communities elitism.
Your comments sound very much like the first crowd of WB'ers to leave for Aces High, using one silly point to make a theatrical "I quit" thread on AGW. If you really are that shallow as to quit AH over the padlock system then please don't let the door hit your bellybutton on the way out, I'm sure the WB community will welcome another whiner to their ranks.
What the big deal about the padlock system? I've already seen one inane post on AGW about it with typical elitist undertones about 'selecting their own views' but is selecting a view with your thumb realistic? did the WW2 Aces have a top hat switch on their stick to move their heads around? Until the advent of cheap VR helmets the padlock system is the closest we'll get to RL target aquisition. Reading Pyro's description it will not be a crutch for newbies to take advantage of, on the contrary it will probably cost them dearly when they get target fixation and a someone dives down on them and takes an easy kill. I don't know if I'll be using the padlock system or not as I already have become set in my ways and have my stick mapped to use manual panning but I'll sure as hell take a look at the padlock system as its never seemed natural to wiggle my thumb to move my head..perhaps I'm just a little strange thinking that!
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Why don't we try it before we decide?
Talked my daughter into potato chips on bologna sandwiches- she hated them at first, now she won't eat them any other way. Things that seem unpalatable at first sometimes turn out to be great, if you give them a chance.
Besides, just because a pilot sees me coming doesn't mean I won't kill him. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Maniac,
I did flip out there, I agree.
I do know what (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) means. I also think folks sometimes use that to seem like they are joking, but still turning the blade. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I guess I should have used those in my original post as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cobra
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Talked my daughter into potato chips on bologna sandwiches- she hated them at first, now she won't eat them any other way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I actually picked up a habit in the army of eating peanut butter sandwiches with mustard on them. Great stuff!!!...try it.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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You're one sick puppy Dach. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <bananas> and peanut butter rock
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Difficulty for diffculty's sake is moronic. I applaud HTC for realizing that padlocks are an excellent idea inspite of the bad name they have received[padlocks that is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)] in the past due to poor implementation.
I find it hilarious that on the "other" board members are using the fact that they don't have padlocks as a source of pride. Next they'll say they refuse to play with anything else except for keyboard and mouse HAHAHAHA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I had this conversation with a combat pilot and here's a snippet of some usefull information:
"[blackhawk] I have NOT lost sight of a tally in either situation. Ever. Some pilots did in training, but I say with confidence not 1 man in the 152nd TRS would lose a tally in the weeds, or even in the sun in ACM."
What people have to realize is that the eye is most sensitive to movement....not color. Interestingly, these pilots are trained that they can confidentally takes their eyes of a con for 2 seconds and be able to reaquire.
Anyhow, a big thumbs up to HTC for ignoring "Snobs-R-Us" and taking a serious look at the padlock issue and making up their own minds.
[This message has been edited by Kats (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Hmmm...what's AGW?
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Hmmm...what's AGW?
A Group of Whiners. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Great description of the padlock system Pyro and HT. I think the only thing that hasn't been explained yet is how a target is actually selected.
Manually? Put yer crosshairs on something and hit a key? Grab yer mouse and click on the plane? Padlock nearest bandit? Cyclable? etc. etc.
Any chance you could let us know?... it might alleviate a lot of (strange) anxiety.
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This does not sound good.
I can't imagine how target selection would not be dumbed down. Guess we'll see. Snaps may use your thumb as a neck, but it's -your- thumb doing the tracking, not the computer. HTC may have removed much of the auto-tracking from their pl, but at what cost in time. Geeez, imo the new arenas and the terrain editor are needed so badly.
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Peanut butter and lettuce! The lettuce offers a slight crunch and moisture to the palate. This only is succulent when one has the freshest white bread with crisp fresh lettuce, and a smooth PB like Skippy or squirrel.
Any thing else is uncivilized.
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Aces High Correspondent for www.dogfighter.com (http://www.dogfighter.com)
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Not enough information was released to discearn whether or not HT has been able to
implement a "Padlock" fairly to all with out
giving those that use it,a way to game the game.
1)does one need to positively LOCATE the aircraft with a mouse click to aquire.OR,can one switch to the SIX view and smack the Padlock key to look for bandits they haven't actually been able to spot yet?
2)Will the user be able to padlock a friendly and or enemy aircraft? OR, will the padlock determine this automatically for the user before the plane has entered ICON RANGE & realistic distance to actually determine friend or foe ?
These issues are real issues that have hampered the concept of Padlock by the so called Elitists.
They are issues that will increase SA beyond Realistic Abilities if skirted.
And if skirted beyond Real Life Abilities,then the concept behind the quest to implement a more natural head tracking ability has caused more damage than it repaired.
Rattler
The Outlaws
An Online WWII Virtual AeroSquadron dating back to 1992
[This message has been edited by Rattler (edited 07-28-2000).]
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i aint bellybutton kissin , but im with htc on this one sounds like a cool idea. cant wait to try it .
will it be active in films yet or ever ? seems like it is a step tward the views being shown , like where you were looking in films and that is cool .
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Yup.. They've explained everything very clearly wrt padlock and it sounds fine to me so far. I just wish they'd let us know about the target selecting part of it, so we can perhaps put this issue to bed.
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"If you really are that shallow as to quit AH over the padlock system then please don't let the door hit your bellybutton on the way out,"
To me that sounds like the old WB attitude heheee.
As i said in the other thread i will give it an fair chance...
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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I like that we are getting this as I think it can only increase the number of people willing to spend money on the game.
At least it is one of the bigger issues I hear spoken, when doing propaganda in the EAW community (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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Once upon a time, back in the 70s, a guy by the name of Jim Hall built a race car known as the Chaparral. It was very fast, in fact it blew everyone else away...but not just solely because of its speed.
The Chaparral also had a new feature...fans and ducting that actually produced an area of low pressure under the car that resulted in extra downforce. This extra force allowed the Chaparral to zip through turns at speeds that its competitors couldn't match. As a result, the Chaparral won the races.
Now the other race car people let out a howl that you wouldn't believe. 'Unfair', they cried. 'Not realistic', they argued. 'We like to do it differently', some complained. Others sniffed and said that it had always been done the old way in the other races, so why change now?
And so the stage was set. Did the racers adopt the new technology to achieve better performance...or did they send the upstart packing? What do you think?
I know...you've never heard of the Chaparral, right?
Andy
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Heh, nice analogy Andy.
Not sure it is appropriate here though. I could use it for powerups, extra lives, heat seeking missiles and whatnot.
I want to have this sim as a hardcore one. Part of the hardcore is keeping track of the enemy on yer own, not letting a computer take over the taskload.
Unless the lowered taskload is compensated for by adding some negative aspect to it, it will be an advantage, fair or unfair. I do not consider "target fixation" such a one based on the description from HTC on how the padlock system will be implemented.
It will be interesting, and I have much faith in HTC; if anyone can pull off a realistic one, it's them.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Not sure the analogy is on target. (and not sure why I'm wading into this topic once again, but here it goes...) My beef with padlock in a WWII "SIM" perhaps has to do with what I think padlock is or what padlcok had been in the past. With padlock I press a button, the computer then hi-lights the closest enemy bogy for me, including ones I never might have seen otherwise and then tracks it for me. This relieves me of the 'burden' of simulating, or learning to simulate, a pilot conscientiously having to track a bogy by using the only manual tools (arrow keys, hat switch) available to me in a computer world. In other words I don't have to do anything but drive the airplane towards the kill. To me that is GulfWar FA-18 technology and NOT remotley like anything WWII-ish. A perfect world would have us all using Virtual Reality helmets. But we don;t have that. IMO a padlock is a crutch for folks who don;t have the desire or patience to learn to do something manually. With keystrokes we manually raise gear, manipulate the flaps, shoot guns, arm/drop bombs, look at maps and talk to each other via text or vox. If we "automate" or even semi-automate the views, which is the core of situational awareness and hence such a HUGE integral part of any WWI sim or game with aircombat, why not automate these other functions also?
I'll reserve any comment on what HTC has in mind till I try it. I'm just offering a view on my bias against padlock views in a WWII (or even WWI, Korea or Vietnam) era aircombat sim like Aces High - imo FA-II and AW3 are games and can have it for al I care.
I also am a realist and see HTC's need for more customers. I'm not dumb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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StSanta
I too hope the view will not have any of the 'unrealistic' features that other padlocks have had.
With regard to difficulty, I'm not sure that padlocks make life easier. Just look at the Janes padlock technique...that thing will lawndart you in a heartbeat! Then, I remember the old Falcon3 padlock. So many of its fans liked it because it was hard to learn and therefore gave an advantage to those that had figured it out.
As some know, I favor the external 'player to target' view when it comes to actual 1v1 BFM. But this view also is hard to learn and has its share of artificialities.
I'm still unsure what the problem is. Many of the anti-padlock opinions come from folks who otherwise don't mind a bit telling us of their skill in manipulating the snap views. (Because that's what they do. They don't out-BFM their opponents...they simply out-view them.) OK, fine! Then they should have no problem outflying the padlock pilot. If these snap view folks skill level is so good that they can keep track of the bandit no matter what, then who cares what method is used to track the bandit?
It seems to me that if the bandit is being tracked equally effectively by two opponents...one a padlock pilot, the other a snap view pilot...then the outcome will go with the better pilot, regardless of view type.
This subject always generates such unbelievable whining.
Whiners that complain because a sim doesn't have their favorite features...OK, see you later.
Whiners that constantly play the 'realism' card, most of whom have never sat in a fighter cockpit, let alone flown one. To them I say, go see your recruiter, get some real fighter time, and then come back and preach your 'realism'.
Until then, let's all chill out. Let's have fun and enjoy the comraderie of our fellow pilots.
Andy
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Westy
With regard to the 'auto-padlock', I am in complete agreement.
Too many sims have a 'padlock the closest enemy' feature...a poor simulation of game play for all the reasons you stated.
But...that type of padlock operation can be omitted without any degradation of the view. Inasmuch as the mouse is still usable on the AH screen, it seems a simple mouse click is the answer to this issue. Use the snap views to locate the bandit, mouse click the padlock into operation, and then exit to the snap views when needed.
As for the 'game' versus 'sim' issue, I think these are all games. The real issue is the 'arcade-ness' of particular features. The auto-padlock is definitely an arcade feature for me. On the other hand, high fidelity avionics, life-like switch methodologies, and true-to-physics weapons delivery...now we're talking simulation!
Andy
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umm andy since when do REAL aircraft have an outside view??
i'd say cann that idea ... unless for H2H where you want to enable it, the TA and offline.
Anyhow the Padlock view HTC proposes doesn't give any other views that the normal "snapper" has therfore no advantage IF the problem of aquiring a Lock (you'll have to look and see the dot first) is solved ...
(maybe clicking on the con? or track only possible when con in ID range?)
DW6
(ahh gues we posted at the same time andy ...)
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 07-28-2000).]
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>I had this conversation with a combat pilot >and here's a snippet of some usefull >information:
>
>
>quote:
>
>"[blackhawk] I have NOT lost sight of a >tally in either situation. Ever. Some >pilots did in training, but I say with >confidence not 1 man in the 152nd TRS would >lose a tally in the weeds, or even in the >sun in ACM."
I'm sorry Kats - from my personal experience this sounds like BS. The whole thing looks like a snippet from a propaganda movies of the 40s.
It's very difficult to acquire another plane, especially at distance and even more so over terrain. It's very easy to "lose" the plane you were staring at just a second ago. The whole technique of scanning the skies around you if very much like AW/WB/AH view system - you select a sector, make sure there's nothing dangerous there, "snap" to the next sector and so on.
When you move you head around everything moves relative to your point of view making it it virtually impossible to separate between "moving" landscape and a plane moving against the landscape.
It might be different in a dogfight where your opponent is very close and you can "predict" his position with relative ease based on him moving under the same laws of physics as yourself (no warps in RL...). From this point of view optional padlock might be OK.
All padlocks I've tried before made me feel disoriented. You don't need to "see" your attitude in RL - you feel where your plane is going relative to the rest of the world. In a flightsim - you need to "know" where you're going... I cant' see padlock helping it any.
It's given as an option - you don't like it, don't use it. I trust HTC to make it a "good", "realistic" padlock - they've delivered so far.
Just one request: guys, if you implement it - make "locking" distance limited to 300-400 yards max, like it is in RL.
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 07-28-2000).]
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Andy,
As others have said, the issue is not about which view system is more realistic, it's about replacing a learned skill with an automated system. I think you'll agree that SA is one of the most important factors in the game. Some are concerned that padlock will amount to "automated SA".
You say that it doesn't matter how the bandit is tracked, the pilot with superior BFM skills will win. Let's imagine HTC decided that too many potential players were discouraged by having to learn BFM, so they introduced automatic systems for flaps, trim, and rudder. Now you can say, it doesn't matter how the plane is flown, the pilot with superior gunnery skills will win. Now, let's imagine that too many potential players are discouraged by having to learn gunnery....
I don't know how the new padlock system will work, but I would hope that it will not be "automated SA". A system that provides a quick start for newbies, but still rewards those who develop SA skills would be fine with me, and (I suspect) most "hardcore" players.
I'm confident that HTC has put a lot of thought into this. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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DW6
RL fighters don't have 'outside' views...only their pilots do.
I have gone into considerable detail to explain this in my 'Perspectives' series of articles...too much to go into here.
Here's a brief summary. RL fighter pilots are taught BFM using an 'outside' perspective. The 'player to target' external view is exactly how a RL fighter pilot is taught to see the three dimensional BFM situation.
That is why the instructor uses models or his hands to describe a maneuver rather than drawing cockpit-based views.
Andy
[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 07-28-2000).]
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I think some of you are forgetting the features already in AH that take the burden off the pilot: auto-pilot, auto-takeoff, bomber gun aiming (for the guns not currently manned). I think we can all agree that the auto-pilot is essential, I had some problems with the auto-takoff being implemented but now use it regularly, and I wouldn't even take a bomber up if the auto-aim wasn't implemented.
The cool thing is, no pilot is required to use auto-pilot or auto-takeoff. If the same applies to the padlock view then I'm alright with it.
-sudz-
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popeye
I agree with you.
But, as far as BFM is concerned, SA ends with the tally.
Before anyone goes screaming into the night, please note my emphasis on the 'BFM'. I'm referring to tactical maneuvering where the focus is on the bandit...not the big picture 'how am I doing' where the focus is placed on the overall strategic situation.
Whatever means is used to track the target after the tally is obtained is pretty much irrelevant as long as no grossly inappropriate mechanisms exist (such as a padlock continuing to track in an area where the pilot cannot see).
I think we get lost here in the 'big picture-little picture' issue. Padlock should be a 'little picture' visual aid...snap views are more suited to 'big picture' perspectives.
Andy
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Part of the hardcore is keeping track of the enemy on yer own, not
letting a computer take over the taskload.
So why do you not complain about ICONS with their comupter aided range finders? Listen guys, we get visually screwed in these games due to dimensional amd scale issues. That is why we don't complain about ICONS or PL's. Even with them, our viewing is STILL impaired compared to our real life counterparts.
As far as how you aquire a target, IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with cycling from nearest to furthest target that is within your LOS. In real life I could do it instantly, and be able to visually cycle all targets much much faster than any padlock system. I could also track multiple cons in a real world situation quite easily whereas a padlock system hardly comes close to that.
Tracking targets is not SA IMO, and it isn't much of a real world skill. SA is to be able to visualize your enviroment 3 moves in the future and use that info to place yourself in the most advantageous position. No viewing system can replace this skill. This is the skill that separates the great pilot from the average pilot. It is the same in sports, Gretzky's greatness wasn't his size, or raw talent, nor was it because he could see where the players on the ice were any differently than the other players. His greatness was that as in chess, he played the game 5 moves ahead - he saw where the game was going to be 30 seconds in the future and took complete advantage!
As far as PL's and Snap viewing in games are concerned, all we are trying to do is find a way to manually simulate something that comes naturally and easily to all of us by virtue of being a human. Turning eyesite, head, neck, and shoulder movement into a required skill makes no sense to me. I'd preffer learning engine management, navigation, and a host of other skills that are a required skill to be a pilot, that most sims currently ignore.
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Kats,
I've complained about ICONS.....alot.
I've also been toying with these sims since Air Warrior was available only on DOS.
I've also been driving to work every week for the last 10 years by a major Airport with all sizes of aircraft.
I'll spot an aircraft MUCH closer than when ICON range starts in AH. And,in real life when I spot these larger shapes flying in the air and track for 4 to 5 seconds,then glance back down to the road/my speed, then glance back up to re-aquire that same aircraft.... I'll be damned! where did it go?
I always have a squeak of a time to find it again, then when I do,its the same relative size it was before, just a tad higher in the sky.
I can find,track,and re-aquire virtual aircraft without icons better than real life.
And as a result,I will not accept PL till its done in a manner that doesn't provide a crutch along with what it fixs.
Its plane & simple.
Rattler
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Gee whiz guys, maybe folks just did not understand what Pyro and HT said about the system. Allow me to quantify;
1) The PL is an augmentation of the current view system. i.e. is does not work automatically, it requires YOU to get a manual line-of-sight visual fix on the target and then press a key to lock the target(? workin from memory HT).
Once locked, AND you do not manually change your view so that the acquired target is not in view, your head will turn through the same motions as your manual view system is. The head turns do not keep the plane centered, but only change when the acquired target reaches the edge of your periphery view.
If you manually change your view and lose visual with the target, you must manually find the target again before the PL starts to work again.
If an obstruction of the target,that is PL'ed, occurs, your view will no longer automatically change and you will again have to manually get sight of your target again, before the PL takes over.
All this assumes you have enabled the PL AND have acquired a visual on the target AND you have not manually switched views so the target is no longer in line of sight.
This system is the best compromise between the way it really works in RL and the way it HAS worked in other sims and best of all, it does not have to be used. It is simply quite ingenious.
Pyro, HT, if I stepped on any toes, I apologize, but the mole hill was starting to look like Mt. Everest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Thanks Skuzzy.
Say... can ya tell us just *how* a target is selected? If ya got 3 nme in front of ya, hitting "p" or whatever aint gonna do it.
Thanks.
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Thanks Skuzzy, the one fear i had was that Pad could be set and then you could look around to your hearts desire, and then pop back onto the padded target. Shoulda known better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
Over and Out
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And as a result,I will not accept PL till its done in a manner that doesn't provide a crutch along with what it fixs.
Its plane & simple.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. All I can say is talk to a real pilot - they will tell you the exact opposite. I guess you missed an earlier post in this thread where I quoted an interview I had discussing the very issues you describe. I'll repost it:
"[blackhawk] I have NOT lost sight of a tally in either situation. Ever. Some pilots did in training, but I say with confidence not 1 man in the 152nd TRS would lose a tally in the weeds, or even in the sun in ACM."
Of course, as been stated - it all depends on what kind of PL system we are talking about.
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The views in AH have always been very generous. I cant remember the last time i lost the position of a con(or cons). It makes it hard to understand what perpose the addition will serve.
It is nearly impossibile to imagine how you can make anything easier, without it giveing an edge. Auto take off, outside views, easymode. All of these things give an edge to the user. They use to argue that esymode in WB didnt give an edge. Then they took it out of the main, and 70 percent of the players moved to the ACA.( laffed my bellybutton off on that one).
In the end, it will be available to everyone. So what the hell. The game has gotten easyer. Worse things could happen. WB gunnery for example (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Originally posted by Nash:
Thanks Skuzzy.
Say... can ya tell us just *how* a target is selected? If ya got 3 nme in front of ya, hitting "p" or whatever aint gonna do it.
Thanks.
Not sure about that. HT would have to offer that up.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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OK, almost a year since it was introduced. How many of you guys use it? Does it help you?
I, for one, never did mess with it. I was already comfortable doing it the "old-fashioned" way.
One thing that is interesting, is seeing all the scared pups in this thread (including me).
Anyone having luck with padlock?
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Never tried it. Hell, I dont use padlock anymore in neither of the sims I have,I really like the view system in AH (xcept for the linda blair 6 view)!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You know Hblair, untill just the other day I forgot there was a padlock feature in AH. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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hblair, try the feature named "padlock" in falcon4, then tell me if we have something similar here.
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Add me to the list of people that never tried it.
AKDejaVu
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I tried it and played with it a bit so I could explain it to trainees if asked. It works pretty good, and stays within the limits of the view system. I am good enough with the snap views that I don't need to use it. Any padlock deprives me of physical feedback I use to orient myself, and therefore I prefer snap views and always will. If newbies are having trouble with the views I'll have them try the padlock and see if they like it. The padlock shows them how to track targets when they are learning, and then they can switch the views themselves when they get better. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The padlock is fine, it just can't compete with what I find to be the best damn view system ever in a sim. It doesn't take long for most new pilots to discover the advantages of the fantastic snap view system we have and switch to that.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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I don't evem know what key is it for padlock...
hmm they moved key which opens text-buffer so guess its tab then ?
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I was reading through this thread, the whole time thinking 'Don't we already have a padlock view?', but I couldn't remember for sure.
Then I looked at the dates on the messages (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
anRky
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never tried, what was the key for it ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
maik
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Heath , call me spoiled but I love the AH viewing system . I don't for a second miss paddock and I used it all the time in CFS and FA were I came from .
That said the reason I replyed was I installed the Mig Alley game last night and they don't have the 8 + 5 view or 5 + 2 view (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) , it does have paddock and the type of panning view that found on Falcon "I think" I can now use that to track but I surely miss AH's view system .
I guess it took me about 9 months till it really was "easy" I mean the views . Before that I had to really work at them . That said views are easier to learn than my shooting with pedals , hehe . I should also tell you , I know why you bought my hoffmans from me now , hehe . Would never go back , even if it's somewhat harder now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Take care
spro
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airdrne in H2H
air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
www.airsquadron.com (http://www.airsquadron.com)
[This message has been edited by airspro (edited 05-17-2001).]
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HB...I tried the padlock mode and discarded it. The reason was personal...
Yeah, the system kept track of the NME by use of changing views, but I didn't like it because it 'forced' me to look where the NME was.
An example: I'm saddled up on NME's 6 and decide I need to pull my AC nose up (lots of E) since I'm going to overshoot him.
I know that even though my nose is pointed up and I can't see him for an instant (or two), I can still find him below me if I roll over.. (which I plan to do)..
The problem with the padlock (as it was when I tried it) is that the view changed from what I really wanted.. I.E. from forward view.
In a nutshell, the padlock view forced me to look at the target when sometimes I really don't want to.. at least for a few moments.
According to Hitech, this has been resolved.. both with the "out of sight, out of track-mode" and with the option of overriding the padlock with our current view system.
Time will tell if I like this new padlock or not. I'm sure it'll be a 'personal preference' thing just like the Combat Trim. I doubt if it'll give a newbie an unfair advantage.. besides it's there for everyone to use.. how more fair can ya get ?
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I've had the buttons to switch from padlock to snap view mapped on my joystick for a while but hardly ever used it. However, I decided to start using it more about a week ago.
I usually don't need it at all but I found for one particular situation it is great. An example would be when I am low in a spit and an e fighter (like a p51) is high on my 6 and diving at me.
What I will do is padlock him so I can then make a high g turn at the last possible moment. I switch to forwad view using the number pad for just a moment as I start the turn. Then I let it padlock back and then I can quickly reacuire target when I've turned about 90-120 degrees.
Padlock is great for doing this repeatedly to bleed their E. If they take the bait and manuever for the shot each time they will eventually run out of energy and I can kill them.
When I do this a bunch of times without padlock (sometimes with, but less often), I eventually screw up a turn and they get me..
-sequence
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I'm FINALLY getting a few kills in fighters, thanks to Mitsubishi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That A6M is a dandy ride.
I've never used padlock, and that's on purpose. The "other" game I plan on playing is not going to have padlock, so I didn't want to get used to it.
The AH snap view/hat switch system has a STEEP learning curve. I think using padlock would just make it that much steeper. Of course, the steeper learning curve is that of anticipating where the enemy is when you inevitably lose sight of him for a second or two (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)